I understand not liking abbot as the wincon the thread has been moving there for a while but the pyromancers never really feel that way to me. It might be meta or playstyle difference but I have enjoyed pyromancer a lot in this deck. Sure he doesn't close game like a fatty but that really isn't his role in most decks he's in. His role is to generate card advantage over multiple turns by creating a bunch of chump blockers or an army of attackers. With our high spell volume and many flashback sources he tends to do a lot of work over multiple turns and has more flexibility than say a third or fourth fatty do as a wincon. I find the biggest problem people often have with using pyromancer in a shell that isn't designed for him to go off with a bunch of gprobes and cantrips is that he often gets held as people wait to get maximum value. He is a very realistic turn 2 option to draw out removal allowing something like a jace to control the game for you. If it doesn't draw removal and is allowed to stick around for a turn or 2 its already created a nice bit of card advantage once the removal does finally take it down your left with something for your troubles. He is also a wincon that isn't graveyard dependent which is a bonus over more fatties who can get awkward and pile up in games you get hit with an RIP. I understand moving in another direction but if you cut abbot (which I agree with) and pyromancer (which I do not agree with) and added a bunch of counters and more fatties then my serious question is why not just play Grixis Control Chapin style since that would seem to be more your playstyle given the direction you are moving.
As for the grixis delver player questioning pyromancer I would assume you are just playing the deck incorrectly as in your deck he's often live turn 2 and you are not a control deck and most of the time so you can't afford to wait to get "max value" 2 or 3 turns down the line your a tempo deck if you aren't ahead on board 90% of the time you've just lost. So in your strategy, which I had been playing since the days of treasure cruise before I switched to the Blue Jund style, Pyromancer is often one of if not your best card because you do something much different. You have a deck designed to snowball him out of control while for us he is just a decent source of card advantage in delver he can make 5....6....7 tokens in 2 or 3 turns and often unless they have a sweeper from there you just win.
Awesome insight. I feel like you hit it on the head. I think the problem a lot of Delver/Twin players have with AggroControl and BlueJund is that they assume the decks can be played with the same strategies since all decks share the same cards to an extent. I feel like you have to think 2 to 3 turns ahead as you play these decks, but this one's harder because you have to play proactive rather than reactive like in control. YP is def my turn 2 play with another Jace in hand. There's nothing wrong with using it as a rod to draw out hate if if it will open up lines of play for the next couple turns.
The thing is that it's quite rare for YP to be a t2 play if you're running only two copies in your 60. Most of the time you end up drawing it in the middle of the game and the later you play him, the worse he is.
I disagree here - if you have ANY amount of gas (which this deck definitely has) - then YP is a late game win con. If you can protect him at all then he spirals out of control for the opponent and stops most ground attacks.
I agree with Nial, often times he is fine to draw late game because he makes a lot of draws have more impact than they usually would by adding the "put a 1/1 token into play" clause to every instant and sorcery in the deck. Is he my preferred draw if i am handless 10 turns in no of course he isn't but if I have an active jace or a cantrip or often even a bolt he nice to have, and I much prefer him in games I get hit with Leyline of the void or RIP which happens a lot more often then me completely running out of gas. He isn't as good in some places as slamming a big guy but thats why you play 2 fatties and 2 pyromancers most of the time because Pyromancer makes almost half of our draws late game better then they usually would have been. I dont think he is required but he isn't the awkward junk you are making him sound like. He gives us a very useful go wide option or creates a lot of chump blockers or wins games, and I will reiterate the point I feel is often lost when talking about pyromancer and even pia as wincons over the extra fatties THEY ARE IMMUNE TO GRAVEYARD HATE. This is a characteristic that is often overlooked and really shouldn't be because graveyard hate is prevalent in modern right now. I just think you are drastically under estimating the value of pyromancer but like I said before if your cutting pyromancer and such for a handful of counters and more delve creatures then Chapin style Grixis Control which is also a super strong deck looks to be much more your playstyle.
I will admit I am biased since I love pyromancer and have been playing him basically since he released and I think I was one of the first people on this thread to start really using him way early on. Yay for Legacy Grixis Pyromancer!!
I have to disagree with the recent anti-Abbot discussion.
It's all about how you play him in this deck. With (admittedly limited) experience with this deck, I feel that a 3-3-3 split with Abbot, Jace, and Snap is the most solid way to work this playstyle. This deck wants to disrupt the early game to a point where the mid- and late- games almost don't matter. It performs on card advantage, and Abbot digs through your top card to help thin out your draws while disrupting your opponent's hand or board (or both possibly - more often than you'd think.) And when it sticks around it gets even nastier. Like Pyromancer, expecting Abbot to win the game in one storm turn is not correct. It's best to time her effects with the way your hand and library will statistically perform when you drop it. And for this deck, its turn 4, which leaves us a chance to either get a free land or play nearly anything in our deck save for Liliana and KCommand. Late game it's a body that can get bigger and lets you draw a card for 2 mana, assuming you discard that card at the end of turn unless it's played. That's why it's good to run Abbot with Rise//Fall and Serum Visions so you're most likely to get a useful card from that draw.
I don't know, I'll always defend Abbot of Keral Keep. I think its extremely underrated.
I like abbot if your running Liliana if not I tend to prefer pia and kiran. The abbot version while powerful has some limitations in terms of flexibility since counters are a no go and the deck needs to be cheaper overall. I think if you are not running Liliana then the concept of counter spells and pia is more flexible and easier to manage along with having slightly different strengths. I do not like pia and Liliana in the same deck as the mana becomes much harder to manage. I think abbot and Liliana also go hand in hand in this style as abbot thrives in low resource situations while Liliana is the best way to get to low resource situations. The other way I have found to be strong is the one similar to Jeff Hoogland and Gerry T which involves pia and Kiran along with a few counters to be a little more controling. I feel like the thread isn't really anti abbot but most of us have been moving into the pia and Kiran versions which allows for more flexibility in game plan and in deck building. Both versions are strong but it all depends on playstyle. My results have been nearly the same with both versions of the deck. I believe abbot is extremely powerful but unlike say a young pyromancer I think his value is extremely limited as an attacker/ wincon if the deck isn't built for him. We are lucky to get 2 prowess triggers a turn so if we are lucky late game he is hitting for 4 damage a turn but he could also very easily be a 2 power dude if unlucky. The reason pyromancer and pia are better wincons is because their benefits stay in play once the turn ends where abbot has reset turn after turn. While I believe he has earned his spot in certain strategies most people in the thread are starting to really see what pia can do along with the ability to have a much less limited deck list do to everything is not being judged on if it's a good flip to abbot. I play both versions on and off and truthful idk what version I really like more I guess time will tell but it certainly isn't anti abbot he just isn't a focal point anymore as we have found similar or better wincons.
So just returned to the thread after a good while away, digging the changes and I love that the archetype is keeping so fresh and changing. My 3 points I would like to put forward are:
Goblin Rabblemaster: People seem to be liking Pia and Kiran as well as Young Pyromancer, has anyone given any thought to the rabblemasters? He is halfway between the two afformentioned and i have been thinking since his release that he could thrive in the right midrange modern shell.
Brutal Expulsion: Not sure if his was brought up while I was out of the loop I am yet to fully catch up, but it seems to be the kind of 2 for one that at least the Abbot version was lacking, offering a "counter" option and backing up as recursion for the etb effects in the deck or protection for our guys, while also providing light removal or planeswalker busting potential
My final point for the people running the abbot-less build looking for fatties is Stormbreath Dragon, hes an absolute beast and he truely shines against the decks that are most likely to give us some trouble while remaining relevant no matter the match up.
Keen to hear some feedback on these points, my current project is a slightly faster midrange grixis list, ive gotten somme terrific ideas from this thread, so ill keep you all updated if it seems relevant.
I believe the anti-Abbot peeps are feeling the same hate/dislike for him as I did in early testing.
What many Delver pilots, who are conditioned by T1 Delvers and T2 Tasigurs need to understand is that Abbot is basically someone who comes down around the time your snapcaster is also live, and not before. But this is counter-intuitive when you look at your hand and see a red prowess guy who looks like he wants to come down early and start beating.
He tempts you to play him early, which will almost always be a farce and an exiled Kolaghan's command/snapcaster. So we can't treat him like an Elvish Visionary, and anyone who's thinking of him as the red snapcaster has to lower their bar for him.
I've personally stopped trying to run him simply because my other creatures do better than become cantrips. Delver is my T1 threat, which outweighs his being a weak topdeck, because we're a deck that wants to be able to play explosively if the game allows it. Young P is our mid-late game threat, that can potentially start running away from T2 with Probe. Snapcaster needs no explanation. Tasigur is our late-game grinder and also a potential T2 start.
The pattern is that everyone listed has the potential to hit the board T2 (or earlier) and start making waves. Abbot will never do that, and that's why I don't run him (although I still visit this thread because I just love Grixis in all its forms).
TLDR: Cast Abbot when you have 5 mana beyond T5, or 4 mana + land in hand on T5, and he'll never disappoint.
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Doesn't play Abbot or Rise//Fall, and plays a bunch of counterspells. The only thing it really has in common with this deck is Lili, Jace, and a tad more hand disruption than normal.
Has anybody been using the new battle lands in this shell? I'm pleasantly surprised with them in terms of consistency and I think they will help against aggro matchups a fair amount. I'm thinking they require minimizing the non-fetch lands as much as possible but it seems worth it to me. Here's what I'm working with. I'm on 18 lands because I do run 8 free cantrips. Feel free to add back the two manlands to get back to the more standard 20.
Just because a list doesn't run Abbot or has a few counterspells in, it doesn't mean it's not worth discussing. There's no other thread for a Lilly+Jace in a Grixis shell.
I'm very happy with it so far. Bob is a great addition that fails to disappoint me. CMC of this deck is low, so he doesn't hurt much, but card advantage is priceless. He's great with Lilly on the field too, since you can tailor your hand while activating +1... And Serum Visions with Bob is something Jund players can only dream of.
Look at the card. Now back to Jace. Now back to that card, now back to Jace! Sadly, it isn't Jace, but if it stopped being a junk rare and became relevant, it could act like it's Jace. Crack some Worldwake. What do you have? You have a Jace, the card you wish this card could be like. Look again. THE CARD IS NOW A $75 BILL. Anything possible when you play Magic with Jace and not junk rares. This is probably spam.
That's a rather standard Grixis Control list from the last six months with Liliana in it...
People in the control thread seem to think this is not a control list but a Blue Jund list because of discards+Lili...
It's more about the deck being more proactive than reactive, rather than it being about the actual cards. But the cards themselves lend to whether it is proactive or reactive overall.
But for the list itself, I think these weird diluted lists are meta tunings where you weaken your game a bit to strengthen other things you expect, rather than restructuring the whole shell. If someone experiments with something and it's successful in a meta similar to yours, try it. If you like it, keep it. I think things only go astray as people try to class something done as the new "core".
Anyways...
Bob scares me with no lifegain, but I think the cantrips help balance that. I'm used to playing at a quarter life anyways. If Bob helps you win faster and you can get rid of him before it becomes a problem, then why not if it works for you.
As for the grixis delver player questioning pyromancer I would assume you are just playing the deck incorrectly as in your deck he's often live turn 2 and you are not a control deck and most of the time so you can't afford to wait to get "max value" 2 or 3 turns down the line your a tempo deck if you aren't ahead on board 90% of the time you've just lost. So in your strategy, which I had been playing since the days of treasure cruise before I switched to the Blue Jund style, Pyromancer is often one of if not your best card because you do something much different. You have a deck designed to snowball him out of control while for us he is just a decent source of card advantage in delver he can make 5....6....7 tokens in 2 or 3 turns and often unless they have a sweeper from there you just win.
I don't know how often you're able to do that kind of rapid snowball with YoungP, but even running 4 probes I frequently find that tapping out on turn 2 to drop a Young P that does nothing but eat a removal or ensure I can't counter something horrible like K.Finks/Goyf/Liliana on their T2/3. And then look really stupid while they downtick Lili to make me sacrifice young P, or choose between T1's Delver or him. Then comes the dilemma, do you probe before dropping him to make sure you're not setting yourself up for a huge tempo loss? or do you probe afterward to get that token, possibly to find out that you're going to regret tapping out?
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A little bit - it's AMAZING in decks with limited access to card draw (Mardu, etc.), but here it's just making our good matchups better. We're already better in a hellbent position than almost every deck, this card just makes that better. We're already taking so much damage from our lands AND our burn matchup is bad, so it's not great main and our sideboard is already pretty limited. I'm continuing to keep an eye on it though as it is definitely powerful enough for modern, it's just a question of where.
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Death to false Value.
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Awesome insight. I feel like you hit it on the head. I think the problem a lot of Delver/Twin players have with AggroControl and BlueJund is that they assume the decks can be played with the same strategies since all decks share the same cards to an extent. I feel like you have to think 2 to 3 turns ahead as you play these decks, but this one's harder because you have to play proactive rather than reactive like in control. YP is def my turn 2 play with another Jace in hand. There's nothing wrong with using it as a rod to draw out hate if if it will open up lines of play for the next couple turns.
I disagree here - if you have ANY amount of gas (which this deck definitely has) - then YP is a late game win con. If you can protect him at all then he spirals out of control for the opponent and stops most ground attacks.
I will admit I am biased since I love pyromancer and have been playing him basically since he released and I think I was one of the first people on this thread to start really using him way early on. Yay for Legacy Grixis Pyromancer!!
It's all about how you play him in this deck. With (admittedly limited) experience with this deck, I feel that a 3-3-3 split with Abbot, Jace, and Snap is the most solid way to work this playstyle. This deck wants to disrupt the early game to a point where the mid- and late- games almost don't matter. It performs on card advantage, and Abbot digs through your top card to help thin out your draws while disrupting your opponent's hand or board (or both possibly - more often than you'd think.) And when it sticks around it gets even nastier. Like Pyromancer, expecting Abbot to win the game in one storm turn is not correct. It's best to time her effects with the way your hand and library will statistically perform when you drop it. And for this deck, its turn 4, which leaves us a chance to either get a free land or play nearly anything in our deck save for Liliana and KCommand. Late game it's a body that can get bigger and lets you draw a card for 2 mana, assuming you discard that card at the end of turn unless it's played. That's why it's good to run Abbot with Rise//Fall and Serum Visions so you're most likely to get a useful card from that draw.
I don't know, I'll always defend Abbot of Keral Keep. I think its extremely underrated.
However, This Bant hardened scales list for standard I made is really great. Went 4-1 today in pptq. Lost in top 8.
I've been thinking a lot about Jace. I think it'll be $80 by Christmas. Every standard deck needs 4. Any smart modern player is on it...
Goblin Rabblemaster: People seem to be liking Pia and Kiran as well as Young Pyromancer, has anyone given any thought to the rabblemasters? He is halfway between the two afformentioned and i have been thinking since his release that he could thrive in the right midrange modern shell.
Brutal Expulsion: Not sure if his was brought up while I was out of the loop I am yet to fully catch up, but it seems to be the kind of 2 for one that at least the Abbot version was lacking, offering a "counter" option and backing up as recursion for the etb effects in the deck or protection for our guys, while also providing light removal or planeswalker busting potential
My final point for the people running the abbot-less build looking for fatties is Stormbreath Dragon, hes an absolute beast and he truely shines against the decks that are most likely to give us some trouble while remaining relevant no matter the match up.
Keen to hear some feedback on these points, my current project is a slightly faster midrange grixis list, ive gotten somme terrific ideas from this thread, so ill keep you all updated if it seems relevant.
What many Delver pilots, who are conditioned by T1 Delvers and T2 Tasigurs need to understand is that Abbot is basically someone who comes down around the time your snapcaster is also live, and not before. But this is counter-intuitive when you look at your hand and see a red prowess guy who looks like he wants to come down early and start beating.
He tempts you to play him early, which will almost always be a farce and an exiled Kolaghan's command/snapcaster. So we can't treat him like an Elvish Visionary, and anyone who's thinking of him as the red snapcaster has to lower their bar for him.
I've personally stopped trying to run him simply because my other creatures do better than become cantrips. Delver is my T1 threat, which outweighs his being a weak topdeck, because we're a deck that wants to be able to play explosively if the game allows it. Young P is our mid-late game threat, that can potentially start running away from T2 with Probe. Snapcaster needs no explanation. Tasigur is our late-game grinder and also a potential T2 start.
The pattern is that everyone listed has the potential to hit the board T2 (or earlier) and start making waves. Abbot will never do that, and that's why I don't run him (although I still visit this thread because I just love Grixis in all its forms).
TLDR: Cast Abbot when you have 5 mana beyond T5, or 4 mana + land in hand on T5, and he'll never disappoint.
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It doesn't run Abbot of Keral Keep.
4 polluted delta
4 scalding tarn
3 bloodstained mire
1 swamp
1 mountain
1 island
1 steam vents
1 watery grave
1 sunken hollow
1 smoldering marsh
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
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3 Bobs, 2 Tasigurs, 2 Rise // Fall, and 1 Olivia looks terrifying.
URURxUR
UWUWxUW
It's more about the deck being more proactive than reactive, rather than it being about the actual cards. But the cards themselves lend to whether it is proactive or reactive overall.
But for the list itself, I think these weird diluted lists are meta tunings where you weaken your game a bit to strengthen other things you expect, rather than restructuring the whole shell. If someone experiments with something and it's successful in a meta similar to yours, try it. If you like it, keep it. I think things only go astray as people try to class something done as the new "core".
Anyways...
Bob scares me with no lifegain, but I think the cantrips help balance that. I'm used to playing at a quarter life anyways. If Bob helps you win faster and you can get rid of him before it becomes a problem, then why not if it works for you.
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I don't know how often you're able to do that kind of rapid snowball with YoungP, but even running 4 probes I frequently find that tapping out on turn 2 to drop a Young P that does nothing but eat a removal or ensure I can't counter something horrible like K.Finks/Goyf/Liliana on their T2/3. And then look really stupid while they downtick Lili to make me sacrifice young P, or choose between T1's Delver or him. Then comes the dilemma, do you probe before dropping him to make sure you're not setting yourself up for a huge tempo loss? or do you probe afterward to get that token, possibly to find out that you're going to regret tapping out?
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
A little bit - it's AMAZING in decks with limited access to card draw (Mardu, etc.), but here it's just making our good matchups better. We're already better in a hellbent position than almost every deck, this card just makes that better. We're already taking so much damage from our lands AND our burn matchup is bad, so it's not great main and our sideboard is already pretty limited. I'm continuing to keep an eye on it though as it is definitely powerful enough for modern, it's just a question of where.