After lots of online jamming and a kind of terrible 3-3-0 drop SCG IQ experience (which i was worried about, considering my MODO testing started to go south in a hurry), i'm doing a complete 180 and I think Vryn Twin is terrible compared to the Jace-less version. Many traditional Grixis Twin decks did just fine at the SCG IQ i played in and i kept wishing i was on that deck.
Online and live, you lose a lot of games in between when you IoK someone and when you try to twin off. Its def easier, and better, to protect the combo through counter magic, as opposed to discard. I came to a lot of board stalls with Vryn Twin where i was finished firing off my discard and needed a combo piece to win. Jace is a terrible beater, so the combo is virtually the only way to go since you lack cards like Clique and (probably) Pestermites. Board stalls with the traditional version are great, because you are just drawing and countering anyways.
I've also been trying out Jace and am torn, though I'm quite new to Grixis Twin, so not particularly skilled with the deck. I picked up a playset of Jace when he was cheap and have some shiny ones, so I would be really happy to see him work in Twin.
Initially I took some counters out to fit Baby Jace and a couple more IoKs in. What seemed to happen with that deck is I kept wishing for more counters. Then I put some counters back in but removed more of the combo. This resulted in matches where I kept thinking "Where's my combo!?!"
Another issue I found with Baby Jace is I feel like I have to take Jace AoT out of the SB due to the Planeswalker rule. There's some token decks in my meta which AoT is good against though.
I guess at the moment when Baby Jace works it makes my deck feel more like a control deck than a combo deck, with the combo being the bomb. Perhaps there's a better balance, but at the moment I'm not really comfortable with the halfway house feel between control and combo which Baby Jace gives. Like I said I'm not particularly skilled though, so could be using the set-up wrong. I'm gonna keep playing around with it.
After lots of online jamming and a kind of terrible 3-3-0 drop SCG IQ experience (which i was worried about, considering my MODO testing started to go south in a hurry), i'm doing a complete 180 and I think Vryn Twin is terrible compared to the Jace-less version. Many traditional Grixis Twin decks did just fine at the SCG IQ i played in and i kept wishing i was on that deck.
Online and live, you lose a lot of games in between when you IoK someone and when you try to twin off. Its def easier, and better, to protect the combo through counter magic, as opposed to discard. I came to a lot of board stalls with Vryn Twin where i was finished firing off my discard and needed a combo piece to win. Jace is a terrible beater, so the combo is virtually the only way to go since you lack cards like Clique and (probably) Pestermites. Board stalls with the traditional version are great, because you are just drawing and countering anyways.
I've also been trying out Jace and am torn, though I'm quite new to Grixis Twin, so not particularly skilled with the deck. I picked up a playset of Jace when he was cheap and have some shiny ones, so I would be really happy to see him work in Twin.
Initially I took some counters out to fit Baby Jace and a couple more IoKs in. What seemed to happen with that deck is I kept wishing for more counters. Then I put some counters back in but removed more of the combo. This resulted in matches where I kept thinking "Where's my combo!?!"
Another issue I found with Baby Jace is I feel like I have to take Jace AoT out of the SB due to the Planeswalker rule. There's some token decks in my meta which AoT is good against though.
I guess at the moment when Baby Jace works it makes my deck feel more like a control deck than a combo deck, with the combo being the bomb. Perhaps there's a better balance, but at the moment I'm not really comfortable with the halfway house feel between control and combo which Baby Jace gives. Like I said I'm not particularly skilled though, so could be using the set-up wrong. I'm gonna keep playing around with it.
In the Jace version you should be playing control, not combo. By this I mean that you should seek to establish control and win going into the midrange, rather than combo out ASAP. Sometimes I win without my opponent even knowing I'm on Twin (I run a 4/3 split of exarch/twin), which makes the combo strong game 2. However, which hands you mulligan becomes tougher since you're not relying on the combo, but if you play Blue Jund it becomes more natural. I usually go for the combo if I have it early, or don't play it until they take care of one of my threats, in which case the combo comes down afree they've used up that removal. Jace deck is def control with a combo finish as your plan b, so 8 wouldn't recommend it if it's not your playstyle or if your meta is super fast (in which case the purer non-jace version is better)
I have been testing the Jace version a lot recently, and the matchup i am expecting to shore up more with it is the jund/junk matchup, and i still feel unfavored with the jace version. Surprisingly, the more twin-centered one has been wrecking jund from my testing. It could just be that I prefer the instant speed play style rather than the tap out control list, but i have had much more success with the jace-less version (vryn's prodigy that is). Having the ability to rely more on the combo G1 actually is better than the control role from my testing. People living in mortal fear after t3 untapped land go has worked for so long, so why fix what aint broke? Combo is overall a better gameplan G1 in my opinion because it puts our opponent on the back foot immediately and forces them to make plays they wouldn't normally make against a control deck. Also access to the 2/1 flyer as well helps with a beatdown backup plan. Here is the list I am rocking online right now with the traditional version:
I am currently debating whether or not i should go 2 thoughtseize SB or 1 seize 1 flashfreeze to help out against burn and jund. So far this version has been better from my testing from the jace version, however people will have different results.
After lots of online jamming and a kind of terrible 3-3-0 drop SCG IQ experience (which i was worried about, considering my MODO testing started to go south in a hurry), i'm doing a complete 180 and I think Vryn Twin is terrible compared to the Jace-less version. Many traditional Grixis Twin decks did just fine at the SCG IQ i played in and i kept wishing i was on that deck.
Online and live, you lose a lot of games in between when you IoK someone and when you try to twin off. Its def easier, and better, to protect the combo through counter magic, as opposed to discard. I came to a lot of board stalls with Vryn Twin where i was finished firing off my discard and needed a combo piece to win. Jace is a terrible beater, so the combo is virtually the only way to go since you lack cards like Clique and (probably) Pestermites. Board stalls with the traditional version are great, because you are just drawing and countering anyways.
I've also been trying out Jace and am torn, though I'm quite new to Grixis Twin, so not particularly skilled with the deck. I picked up a playset of Jace when he was cheap and have some shiny ones, so I would be really happy to see him work in Twin.
Initially I took some counters out to fit Baby Jace and a couple more IoKs in. What seemed to happen with that deck is I kept wishing for more counters. Then I put some counters back in but removed more of the combo. This resulted in matches where I kept thinking "Where's my combo!?!"
Another issue I found with Baby Jace is I feel like I have to take Jace AoT out of the SB due to the Planeswalker rule. There's some token decks in my meta which AoT is good against though.
I guess at the moment when Baby Jace works it makes my deck feel more like a control deck than a combo deck, with the combo being the bomb. Perhaps there's a better balance, but at the moment I'm not really comfortable with the halfway house feel between control and combo which Baby Jace gives. Like I said I'm not particularly skilled though, so could be using the set-up wrong. I'm gonna keep playing around with it.
In the Jace version you should be playing control, not combo. By this I mean that you should seek to establish control and win going into the midrange, rather than combo out ASAP. Sometimes I win without my opponent even knowing I'm on Twin (I run a 4/3 split of exarch/twin), which makes the combo strong game 2. However, which hands you mulligan becomes tougher since you're not relying on the combo, but if you play Blue Jund it becomes more natural. I usually go for the combo if I have it early, or don't play it until they take care of one of my threats, in which case the combo comes down afree they've used up that removal. Jace deck is def control with a combo finish as your plan b, so 8 wouldn't recommend it if it's not your playstyle or if your meta is super fast (in which case the purer non-jace version is better)
I've been using the same split of exarch and twin and that's definitely how the deck feels: Control with a potential combo. I've actually won a couple of games with Jace's emblem.
Other than the combo what are your threats? I've just got a Tasigur and Pia MB atm.
I have been testing the Jace version a lot recently, and the matchup i am expecting to shore up more with it is the jund/junk matchup, and i still feel unfavored with the jace version.
With Jund I've found they tend towards a discard topdeck war anyway, so Jace Twin just kinda plays into their game plan (in my humble opinion).
I am currently debating whether or not i should go 2 thoughtseize SB or 1 seize 1 flashfreeze to help out against burn and jund. So far this version has been better from my testing from the jace version, however people will have different results.
If you're up against lots of Burn, then Flashfreeze is great. I personally prefer 2 Thoughtseize, but that's purely because everyone in my area (even to the PTQ levels) seem to be obsessed with some form of combo or other.
Also, just going to throw my hat in the ring on the side of Jace-less Twin. I'm not going to say that Jace is a bad card or even that Vryn Twin is a bad deck, but I think that the "pure combo" versions are better (which is why UR is seeing more results than Grixis atm).
This is what my 75 settled into. My meta is heavy on Tron, merfolk, and abzan flavors. I pretty much go 3-1 and 4-0 consistently with this. Maindeck t'seize improves these matchups, as does Kommand; otherwise I'd probably play a dispel and a Rise/Fall main, and move t'seize and a vandalblast to the sideboard. Olivia is boss out the side for these matches as well.
Game 1, I pretty much try to establish control early and hit a t3 tasigur or turn 4 pia and kiran. If my threat gets removed I then* hit the combo under the assumption that they just used their only removal (or I otherwise hope for a Kommand/threat); this is the "oops I win". Sometimes Tas or PKN is enough to win and you hold back the combo even when you have it and ride that out to victory. I've won game 2s off not showing the combo game 1. Game 3 I generally leave in 1/1 tapper/twin, and bring in all my threats for a grindy midrange battle. 2 PKN and 1 Exarch to interact with the 1 Twin is pretty sweet. Opponents usually overboard against the combo, improving the match.
@aegisd23, thank you for a great answer! This cleared up a lot for me. Regarding the decklist, I think Dismember is the right call. I will probably just experience with it more.
im playing like 70 of your 75 cards list (+1 pestermite +1 remand -1 kohlagans -1 terminate) and my sideboard is also close to yours
what im interested in is: hows the Creeping Tar Pit been for you. I really like the card but i really do not want to play a land that comes into play tapped so im not really sure
edit: my land base is a bit different from yous as well^^
Creeping Tarpit has been great as an alternate wincon. As a one-of, I've usually drawn into it after my 4th land, but because of my playstyle, I know how to time its drop in a way that doesn't influence my tempo too much. For example, if I open into creeping tar pit, I play it turn 1, and follow up turn 2 by playing a serum or inquisition and keep a bolt up. Or I'll drop it turn 3 and leave a remand up. It usually doesn't effect your game too much. I usually don't aim to drop the combo until turn 5 anyway, but I can't think of one time where it screwed me. Tarpit gives the extra little reach to close out the game that some people complain about needing (I've heard/read that some feel VrynTwin runs out of gas to close a game if you can't find the combo).
However, if I was running 5/4 combo then I'd def run loothouse over Tarpit.
I'm playing the Vryn Twin version and love the little flipper. I run 4 JVP, no Nalars, and 4 Kommands main. There's so much versatility there, the opponent must answer Jace or he gives so much advantage. If you can swing the price run a full set.
Yikes. I can maybe see 4 Jace, but 4 Kommands? That seems really clunky. The card is almost always fine to draw once, but there are matchups where it's less than ideal, and having multiples clogs things up very quickly. How do you fit those all without sacrificing power elsewhere?
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MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
You know what, I came to the same decision after playing more. Now there's three commands main, one in the side. Part of how I make room is running the JVP essentially in place of pestermite. So no pestermites in my build. The combo is just 4 exarch/4 twin. It plays a lot more like a control build that can pressure with tasigur (2), and combo off opportunistically.
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Legacy RB Goblins
I'm quite a beginner with this deck. I have a simple question. In which situation/matchup it is interesting to bring Jace, Architect of Thought ? I see many net deck list using it in the sideboahttp://youtu.be/ZAydj4OJnwQrd even in two copies.
Thank you by advance for any answer
I don't think anyone ever responded to you, but Jace AOT is generally brought in for the Grindy matchups. Namely, Grixis mirrors, Jund/junk, Control variants, and any discard deck. It's also good against token and swarm strategies in some cases. 2 copies is probably too many, and Pia Kiran Nalaar are much more proactive and synergistic with Kommand, but if you stick Jace for more than a turn against Grindy decks, you are generally in very good shape.
@Sled Dog, that makes sense. As I've said before, I haven't had much experience with Jace Flipwalker, but it seems like most lists using him run 3 copies along with the usual 2-3 Kommand.
May be we can try to make a list of all the tricks and tips specifically for the Grixis Twin deck (which can include some of the UR Twin deck). In this way, I think we can share ideas about the dynamics of the deck in addition to our ideas about the static facet (which consists in the deck building). What do you think about it ? May be this forum is inappropriate for this thing.
So this sort of information is something that would likely be in a primer, which the Grixis Twin thread is lacking. Piggybacking off that point, I've been wondering for some time why there isn't a primer for Grixis Twin. Is it because there is too much overlap of information between us and UR for it to be really worth it? Or is it just no one has put the time into collating and writing up that information yet?
This is the only thread in Tier 1 that doesn't yet have a primer with it, and it could generate some interesting discussions on card choices and matchups, and also help answer some of the common questions for people new to the deck.
Thoughts on Thirst for Knowledge? I know the older "all in" versions of UR twin would play it but it has some synergy with Kolaghan's Command (and Snapcaster). Obviously we play no artifacts but digging three cards deep and having immediate access to up to all three of them is certainly powerful. Even as the only card in your hand, it replaces itself instant speed with the best of your top 3 cards. The fact that you can use the cards discarded with K Command or Snapcaster or Tasigur makes it seem like it could be playable as a one or two of, despite the 3 drop slot being pretty packed.
Thoughts on Thirst for Knowledge? I know the older "all in" versions of UR twin would play it but it has some synergy with Kolaghan's Command (and Snapcaster). Obviously we play no artifacts but digging three cards deep and having immediate access to up to all three of them is certainly powerful. Even as the only card in your hand, it replaces itself instant speed with the best of your top 3 cards. The fact that you can use the cards discarded with K Command or Snapcaster or Tasigur makes it seem like it could be playable as a one or two of, despite the 3 drop slot being pretty packed.
To tell the truth, at 3cmc, I would play Gifts Ungiven out of the side to get the same effect you're looking for but better at 1 more mana. Tutor up a Kommand, Snap, and 2 different counters or removal spells, and you'll pretty much end up with access to what you need plus net 2 cards.
Or just trade out the twin package for gifts/unburial package. You'd need one white source though.
??
Sounds like a different deck at that point.
As for TFK, that card is only good when you are pitching artifacts to it consistently. If we wanted more dig spells, we could play plenty of similar spells. The first I would consider would be Forbidden Alchemy or maindeck Mullsrifter. But the fact is in Modern that you need your dog spells to be either very cheap or attached to other action, or else you simply get run over too often. Which is why TFK and Gifts are not played in Tier 1 decks.
Anyway, doing some serious testing this weekend. Will post an updated list with results and comments on Monday or Tuesday.
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LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Turning it into a different deck with gifts would be the entire idea. You switch from combo to a lock, either with elesh norn or iona. Sort of next-leveling them. Is it good? Maybe not, but I'm not sure you'd get enough value from gifts as a pure tutor unless you change the main deck up.
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Turning it into a different deck with gifts would be the entire idea. You switch from combo to a lock, either with elesh norn or iona. Sort of next-leveling them. Is it good? Maybe not, but I'm not sure you'd get enough value from gifts as a pure tutor unless you change the main deck up.
You need to elaborate. Are you talking about the Gifts package coming in from the sideboard? Because that wasn't explicitly mentioned.
If so, it's been done before, specifically in Jeskai Delver sideboards. It does occasionally work. But for a deck that already asks for our opponents to bring in extra removal, counter magic, and land disruption it has some obvious flaws. Mostly, it requires white mana which means our manabase becomes even more fragile post board. It's definitely worth testing, but I'm not sure what problems it really fixes or what new ones it creates. And it's still basically the exact same 2-card combo. EOT you resolve Gifts, then untap and try to jam a 4-mana sorcery that hopefully wins the game. It's far from a lock. Just another way to kill your opponent. But again, it's vulnerable to nearly all the same problems as the Twin package.
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MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
I guess you would need to ask if a gifts-rites package ends up a better option than the norm of siding out the twin combo and switching to tempo or control. If it does then how closely it resembles the twin combo doesn't mean so much. The deck that I've seen that makes the best use of the transformational side is ascendancy storm. But you're right in that it plays a much different game between the two.
I don't think the typical twin deck runs enough different cards of similar effect to make gifts viable simply as a tutor. You could build it to make gifts work, but how much does that water things down?
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I have done a bit of testing for the Jace version, and it has begun to really perform well, but I still haven't gotten the hang of the Jund matchup. Here is the 75 I am using for the Jace version right now:
The only deck i am kinda worried about is burn, so any tips on fighting that matchup with this version of the deck is helpful, but being able to win against UW Tron yesterday after they had Platinum Angel, Wurmcoil Engine, and Academy Ruins to buyback the angel multiple times was pretty epic, so that did help sway my opinion toward the jace version.
I've also been trying out Jace and am torn, though I'm quite new to Grixis Twin, so not particularly skilled with the deck. I picked up a playset of Jace when he was cheap and have some shiny ones, so I would be really happy to see him work in Twin.
Initially I took some counters out to fit Baby Jace and a couple more IoKs in. What seemed to happen with that deck is I kept wishing for more counters. Then I put some counters back in but removed more of the combo. This resulted in matches where I kept thinking "Where's my combo!?!"
Another issue I found with Baby Jace is I feel like I have to take Jace AoT out of the SB due to the Planeswalker rule. There's some token decks in my meta which AoT is good against though.
I guess at the moment when Baby Jace works it makes my deck feel more like a control deck than a combo deck, with the combo being the bomb. Perhaps there's a better balance, but at the moment I'm not really comfortable with the halfway house feel between control and combo which Baby Jace gives. Like I said I'm not particularly skilled though, so could be using the set-up wrong. I'm gonna keep playing around with it.
In the Jace version you should be playing control, not combo. By this I mean that you should seek to establish control and win going into the midrange, rather than combo out ASAP. Sometimes I win without my opponent even knowing I'm on Twin (I run a 4/3 split of exarch/twin), which makes the combo strong game 2. However, which hands you mulligan becomes tougher since you're not relying on the combo, but if you play Blue Jund it becomes more natural. I usually go for the combo if I have it early, or don't play it until they take care of one of my threats, in which case the combo comes down afree they've used up that removal. Jace deck is def control with a combo finish as your plan b, so 8 wouldn't recommend it if it's not your playstyle or if your meta is super fast (in which case the purer non-jace version is better)
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Deceiver Exarch
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Pestermite
Enchantment 4
4 Splinter Twin
Instants and Sorceries 21
1 Dispel
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Serum Visions
2 Spell Snare
4 Remand
2 Terminate
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Cryptic Command
1 Dismember
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Dispel
1 Blood Moon
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Spellskite
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Negate
1 Flashfreeze
1 Thoughtseize
I am currently debating whether or not i should go 2 thoughtseize SB or 1 seize 1 flashfreeze to help out against burn and jund. So far this version has been better from my testing from the jace version, however people will have different results.
On my tombstone, please write "Now his body fuels the Treasure Cruise"
Or you could Kommand him back...
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Modern:
BURGrixis DelverRUB
URUR DelverRU
URBlue MoonRU
RIPURUR TwinRURIP
Legacy:
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RUBGrixis PyromancerRUB
Commander:
URMelek, Izzet ParagonRU
URBJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeRUB
I've been using the same split of exarch and twin and that's definitely how the deck feels: Control with a potential combo. I've actually won a couple of games with Jace's emblem.
Other than the combo what are your threats? I've just got a Tasigur and Pia MB atm.
With Jund I've found they tend towards a discard topdeck war anyway, so Jace Twin just kinda plays into their game plan (in my humble opinion).
If you're up against lots of Burn, then Flashfreeze is great. I personally prefer 2 Thoughtseize, but that's purely because everyone in my area (even to the PTQ levels) seem to be obsessed with some form of combo or other.
Also, just going to throw my hat in the ring on the side of Jace-less Twin. I'm not going to say that Jace is a bad card or even that Vryn Twin is a bad deck, but I think that the "pure combo" versions are better (which is why UR is seeing more results than Grixis atm).
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
1x Blackcleave Cliffs
1x Blood Crypt
2x Bloodstained Mire
1x Creeping Tar Pit
3x Island
1x Mountain
4x Polluted Delta
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Steam Vents
2x Sulfur Falls
1x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
3x Splinter Twin
Creature (14)
4x Deceiver Exarch
3x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy Flip
1x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Instant (12)
3x Kolaghan's Command
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Remand
3x Terminate
Sorcery (8)
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Serum Visions
1x Thoughtseize
2x Anger of the Gods
1x Blood Moon
2x Dispel
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Go for the Throat
1x Grim Lavamancer
1x Keranos, God of Storms
1x Magus of the Moon
2x Negate
1x Olivia Voldaren
1x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1x Spellskite
This is what my 75 settled into. My meta is heavy on Tron, merfolk, and abzan flavors. I pretty much go 3-1 and 4-0 consistently with this. Maindeck t'seize improves these matchups, as does Kommand; otherwise I'd probably play a dispel and a Rise/Fall main, and move t'seize and a vandalblast to the sideboard. Olivia is boss out the side for these matches as well.
Game 1, I pretty much try to establish control early and hit a t3 tasigur or turn 4 pia and kiran. If my threat gets removed I then* hit the combo under the assumption that they just used their only removal (or I otherwise hope for a Kommand/threat); this is the "oops I win". Sometimes Tas or PKN is enough to win and you hold back the combo even when you have it and ride that out to victory. I've won game 2s off not showing the combo game 1. Game 3 I generally leave in 1/1 tapper/twin, and bring in all my threats for a grindy midrange battle. 2 PKN and 1 Exarch to interact with the 1 Twin is pretty sweet. Opponents usually overboard against the combo, improving the match.
Modern
ResidentSleeper
Legacy
UWRUWr MiracleRWU
Creeping Tarpit has been great as an alternate wincon. As a one-of, I've usually drawn into it after my 4th land, but because of my playstyle, I know how to time its drop in a way that doesn't influence my tempo too much. For example, if I open into creeping tar pit, I play it turn 1, and follow up turn 2 by playing a serum or inquisition and keep a bolt up. Or I'll drop it turn 3 and leave a remand up. It usually doesn't effect your game too much. I usually don't aim to drop the combo until turn 5 anyway, but I can't think of one time where it screwed me. Tarpit gives the extra little reach to close out the game that some people complain about needing (I've heard/read that some feel VrynTwin runs out of gas to close a game if you can't find the combo).
However, if I was running 5/4 combo then I'd def run loothouse over Tarpit.
Yikes. I can maybe see 4 Jace, but 4 Kommands? That seems really clunky. The card is almost always fine to draw once, but there are matchups where it's less than ideal, and having multiples clogs things up very quickly. How do you fit those all without sacrificing power elsewhere?
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
I don't think anyone ever responded to you, but Jace AOT is generally brought in for the Grindy matchups. Namely, Grixis mirrors, Jund/junk, Control variants, and any discard deck. It's also good against token and swarm strategies in some cases. 2 copies is probably too many, and Pia Kiran Nalaar are much more proactive and synergistic with Kommand, but if you stick Jace for more than a turn against Grindy decks, you are generally in very good shape.
@Sled Dog, that makes sense. As I've said before, I haven't had much experience with Jace Flipwalker, but it seems like most lists using him run 3 copies along with the usual 2-3 Kommand.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
This is the only thread in Tier 1 that doesn't yet have a primer with it, and it could generate some interesting discussions on card choices and matchups, and also help answer some of the common questions for people new to the deck.
To tell the truth, at 3cmc, I would play Gifts Ungiven out of the side to get the same effect you're looking for but better at 1 more mana. Tutor up a Kommand, Snap, and 2 different counters or removal spells, and you'll pretty much end up with access to what you need plus net 2 cards.
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
??
Sounds like a different deck at that point.
As for TFK, that card is only good when you are pitching artifacts to it consistently. If we wanted more dig spells, we could play plenty of similar spells. The first I would consider would be Forbidden Alchemy or maindeck Mullsrifter. But the fact is in Modern that you need your dog spells to be either very cheap or attached to other action, or else you simply get run over too often. Which is why TFK and Gifts are not played in Tier 1 decks.
Anyway, doing some serious testing this weekend. Will post an updated list with results and comments on Monday or Tuesday.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
You need to elaborate. Are you talking about the Gifts package coming in from the sideboard? Because that wasn't explicitly mentioned.
If so, it's been done before, specifically in Jeskai Delver sideboards. It does occasionally work. But for a deck that already asks for our opponents to bring in extra removal, counter magic, and land disruption it has some obvious flaws. Mostly, it requires white mana which means our manabase becomes even more fragile post board. It's definitely worth testing, but I'm not sure what problems it really fixes or what new ones it creates. And it's still basically the exact same 2-card combo. EOT you resolve Gifts, then untap and try to jam a 4-mana sorcery that hopefully wins the game. It's far from a lock. Just another way to kill your opponent. But again, it's vulnerable to nearly all the same problems as the Twin package.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
I don't think the typical twin deck runs enough different cards of similar effect to make gifts viable simply as a tutor. You could build it to make gifts work, but how much does that water things down?
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
4 Deceiver Exarch
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Enchantment 4
4 Splinter Twin
Instant 14
1 Cryptic Command
1 Dispel
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Remand
2 Terminate
Lands 23
1 Blood Crypt
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Desolate Lighthouse
3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Swamp
1 Watery Grave
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Rise // Fall
4 Serum Visions
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Spellskite
1 Ventilions Clique
1 Blood Mood
2 Dispel
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Negate
1 Terminate
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Thoughtseize
1 Vandalblast
The only deck i am kinda worried about is burn, so any tips on fighting that matchup with this version of the deck is helpful, but being able to win against UW Tron yesterday after they had Platinum Angel, Wurmcoil Engine, and Academy Ruins to buyback the angel multiple times was pretty epic, so that did help sway my opinion toward the jace version.
On my tombstone, please write "Now his body fuels the Treasure Cruise"
Or you could Kommand him back...
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Modern:
BURGrixis DelverRUB
URUR DelverRU
URBlue MoonRU
RIPURUR TwinRURIP
Legacy:
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RUBGrixis PyromancerRUB
Commander:
URMelek, Izzet ParagonRU
URBJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeRUB