I played this deck at gp Dallas (u/r version with bolts, snapcasters, and cliques to win) and can sincerely say that remand was the worst card in the deck. By far.
It's why I've replaced it with Unsubstantiate. Lacks the draw, but the bounce a creature keeps the card more relevant.
I have been thinking about doing this but haven't pulled the trigger. You have convinced me to try it out. If any deck can handle the resource loss from Unsubstantiate it is the one that runs 7 mine effects.
actually it is both a yes and a no
running more mines means running less interactive cards, and so losing the draw of remand means drawing less answers
sure if you are in green fog solves this problem, but most of us are not or at least I am not =) . To the kiora debate. He wants to go combat. I say gigadrowse your 4 creatures with my 4 copies of gigadrowse. Than he is able to respond with kira. Kira "resolves" first -> every drowse get countered. Pretty much a blowout. If you could miracly react to the vial trigger okay, but this wont happen.Yes people can play arround them naturally, but if meervolk is jsut attacking with 2 creatures, I dont acually mind. Same normally is true for affinity. if he attacks with 2 creatures , assuming he has plating+ vault+ pest/memnite and 2-3 additional artefacts he swings for 7-8 dmg meaning he does not has a good draw. meaning we dont need the bounce in those situatons anyway. Ofc I know those arent the most op broken auto include cards. The question is if they could help us fixing our bad matchups. I dont know about you guys but I tend to have 3-4 slots in my mono u sideboard which feel like filler cards. Those 2 seem to me to fill a very specific role.
Been following this thread for quite some time but yet to post anything.
I'm very new to modern, used to play during onslaught - mirrodin standard (at heart a UW Control player), stopped at Champions of Kamigawa and returned back to magic during the release of SOI. Started venturing into modern with the Modern Event Deck (which i upgraded to BW Tokens) and started playing in modern nights at the LGS and usually leaving without any wins.
Once i was matched against Mono-U Turns and I was amazed by the amount of consecutive turns my opponent took and also rendered my threats and spells useless whenever he passed the turn to me (thanks to remand, gigadrowse and exhaustion) and I was intrigued by the deck. Six months on, I finally completed Mono-U turns but lack the knowledge to pilot it properly.
I gotta say thanks to all the contributors here as this is where I learnt most of the strategy/tricks (eg when to drop a mine or when to hold up mana) since there isn't any feature matches in GP/SCG on twitch. I've been watching MTGO videos but it's hard to gauge a proper decklist as most videos are pretty old (diff meta maybe?).
Currently i'm somewhat adopting purklefluff's list as follows:-
4x time warp
3x temporal mastery
4x part the waterveil
1x walk the aeons
1. currently i do not have any snapcasters, how essential are they in furthering the game plan? granted you can flash back a time warp so does it mean we can play fewer walks?
2. when do we actually decide to proctect TITI? do we need to protect it at all (matchup dependant?) or is it there for our opponents to waste early game mana to remove it so that we can save ourselves a turn from being damaged?
3. I used to play howling mine over TITI, giving our opponents an extra card first would probably allow them to kill us faster. Playing TITI in its place feels right as an early blocker, however should i even block anything while facing naya burn? perhaps could anyone enlighten how should i play in the first 3-4 turns while facing naya burn? Blocking a guide/swiftspear and getting searing blazed later on makes me feel like it's a total waste.
4. with lesser mine effects, I find that playing 23 lands can be quite risky. Missing land drops can be really disastrous for us (i even had to main phase cryptic command to bounce an opponent's land + draw a card to ensure I'm ahead on tempo vs a jeskai control deck). Should I cut the fetches (reason I put it there is to thin the deck so that I have a higher chance of drawing spells, but I realise that I drew too many spells during the early turns and not enough lands) or should I increase land count to 24? The reason I'm splashing white is to mislead opponents during early turns or for my sideboard as follows:-
2x ghostly prison (i never found a time when i actually needed it yet)
1x commandeer
2x leyline of sanctity (should probably increase it to 4 to combat burn/discard)
2x spellskite
2x relic of progenitus
2x holy day (i know we should play path here but i find giving the opponent an extra land allows them to pull ahead faster than us)
2x hurkyll's recall
1x hibernation
1x spell snare
5. I feel like in most aggro matchups, remand is rather underpowered. Sometimes i feel like putting a playset of delay would be slightly better. Is it advisable to play 2x remand, 4x delay and cut the spell snare or is it yet again highly meta dependant? I'm playing in a diverse meta of merfolk, naya burn, tron, jeskai control, grixis control, infect..
1. currently i do not have any snapcasters, how essential are they in furthering the game plan? granted you can flash back a time warp so does it mean we can play fewer walks?
they are not essential. obviously they are strong and usually if someone has access to it snapcaster is played as a 1x. you can pay it or you cannot, doesn't change that much
2. when do we actually decide to proctect TITI? do we need to protect it at all (matchup dependant?) or is it there for our opponents to waste early game mana to remove it so that we can save ourselves a turn from being damaged?
it depends. i usually do not protect titi since play it as 1x so if i cast her late game i can transform the card in the very same turn (miracled mastery, gigadrowse, remand, gigadrowse usually and it 8 mana with titi). if it is eaten by a path i get a land drop for free and basically becomes almost a time walk
3. I used to play howling mine over TITI, giving our opponents an extra card first would probably allow them to kill us faster. Playing TITI in its place feels right as an early blocker, however should i even block anything while facing naya burn? perhaps could anyone enlighten how should i play in the first 3-4 turns while facing naya burn? Blocking a guide/swiftspear and getting searing blazed later on makes me feel like it's a total waste.
depends on you if you want to protect it or save it... double bolt or attack + bolt kills the titi but gains us a turn so could save us the game
4. with lesser mine effects, I find that playing 23 lands can be quite risky. Missing land drops can be really disastrous for us (i even had to main phase cryptic command to bounce an opponent's land + draw a card to ensure I'm ahead on tempo vs a jeskai control deck). Should I cut the fetches (reason I put it there is to thin the deck so that I have a higher chance of drawing spells, but I realise that I drew too many spells during the early turns and not enough lands) or should I increase land count to 24? The reason I'm splashing white is to mislead opponents during early turns or for my sideboard as follows:-
2x ghostly prison (i never found a time when i actually needed it yet)
1x commandeer
2x leyline of sanctity (should probably increase it to 4 to combat burn/discard)
2x spellskite
2x relic of progenitus
2x holy day (i know we should play path here but i find giving the opponent an extra land allows them to pull ahead faster than us)
2x hurkyll's recall
1x hibernation
1x spell snare
5. I feel like in most aggro matchups, remand is rather underpowered. Sometimes i feel like putting a playset of delay would be slightly better. Is it advisable to play 2x remand, 4x delay and cut the spell snare or is it yet again highly meta dependant? I'm playing in a diverse meta of merfolk, naya burn, tron, jeskai control, grixis control, infect..
Thanks in advance for your feedback!
i see you do not plat land mine effects, maybe cut a fetch for a mikokoro? and maybe cut the delays for a land and another interactive card?
I'll adopt to your suggestion to -1 ptw and +1 temporal, will try it out next week.
from my minimal experience, delay has been performing quite well for me compared to remand. i've done delay + remand on the same spell to buy 4 turns against a control deck and that would probably be one of the best feelings playing this deck so far.
so far i'm unable to find a mikokoro at my LGS and will use geier reach sanitarium as a substitute for now.
I'll adopt to your suggestion to -1 ptw and +1 temporal, will try it out next week.
from my minimal experience, delay has been performing quite well for me compared to remand. i've done delay + remand on the same spell to buy 4 turns against a control deck and that would probably be one of the best feelings playing this deck so far.
so far i'm unable to find a mikokoro at my LGS and will use geier reach sanitarium as a substitute for now.
actually i always hope that my TITI gets pathed .
You can play both Mikokoro and sanitarium if you need
Delay plus remand seems cool but you are using two cards in order to do nothing.. I d cut delay for something else
Playing with 4 Fog actually feels unfair against the aggro decks. Much of their protection is focused on beating removal and Fog sidesteps that completely. It's great against the single-threat aggro decks, e.g. Infect, Zooicide, Bogles, UR Prowess with Kiln Fiend, etc. It's also great against swarm decks like Affinity, Merfolk, Elves, and Dredge. It depends on having a fast kill yourself since it only buys a turn but it lets you buy that turn while still developing your board. It plays a lot like a Time Warp for G against aggro, with the exception of Burn.
Avenger is great vs BGx because it doesn't need anything besides lands to be good. So what if they kill all your mines and discard your hand? Just play lands and rip Avenger and they're in trouble. For a while I only had 2 Avenger and I would play carefully with it since I had to make it count. With 4 I can slam the first Avenger since it's not hard to find a second. The only card that's really good against it is Maelstrom Pulse, which still leaves you with a 5/5.
Avenger is also great as a backup finisher vs decks that make comboing hard, e.g. Hatebears. Now I can just board in 4 Avenger and not worry about Gaddock Teeg.
I've considered a couple other fatties too. Myr Battlesphere is similar to Avenger and can be found by Ancient Stirrings. Hornet Queen is also similar but more defensive. Both of those creatures have a higher floor than Avenger since their tokens are better by default. However the ceiling on Avenger is so much higher that I think it's the clear winner. Avenger can easily generate 20+ power for its first attack and that's what I'm looking for from my backup finisher.
I'll adopt to your suggestion to -1 ptw and +1 temporal, will try it out next week.
from my minimal experience, delay has been performing quite well for me compared to remand. i've done delay + remand on the same spell to buy 4 turns against a control deck and that would probably be one of the best feelings playing this deck so far.
so far i'm unable to find a mikokoro at my LGS and will use geier reach sanitarium as a substitute for now.
started testing this deck again. seems like the u/r version is the best. lightning bolt is a great answer to fast aggro deck and also can work with snap to be a win con. having access to blood moon out of the board can absolutely wreck certain decks. there is a link to my decklist in my signature.
Just so everyone's aware, I've not died or gone away. I'm actually settled on playing this at next year's August GP near where I live. So I'll be testing thoroughly before then.
I've had some job stuff to work through, but i check the Time Warp thread every day (sometimes more than once) so if you need to ask me anything I'll be sure to notice.
Keep up the chatter. This thread is awesome in that it's really active and helpful. Let's keep it that way!
See y'all soon
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Curious on your guys' opinions of these cards. Some may work in sideboards, some in the main of some metas... but just looking at all the instant speed options that we have to semi-control the board while we're building up land for our combo. These were all inspired by the Gigadrowse that is popular in our deck right now.
I have a quick question. I have 2 EEs in the board. but I've never felt like it was necessary to bring in in the UW version. I guess it's good against something like affinity/lantern or something fringe like enchantments or something. But what is it mainly good for? Most of the time, I just don't feel like it's very good.
My main doubts are:
-1 cryptic +1 more gigadrowse or +1 snappy?
-1 temporal mastery +1 ptw?
My first hand often has 1 mastey or 1 ptw, I know that is "statistical" but it would be so much better draw those cards a few turns later...
Honestly I haven't tryed unsubstantiate against fast aggro deck (Infect, Affinity), but I think it's the best alternative to remand against those type of strategy.
Previously I had 2 spell snare and 2 dispel, but overwhelming denial il really overwhelming against scapeshift, jeskai and ad nauseam.
I'm not sure about swan song, but it works really well with TiTi.
if there is anything i'd change honestly it is the halimar dephts,etb lands are not worth it in this deck
I played a Temple of Mastery with the same purpose as Halimar Depths for a while. It's impacted my mana base enough for me to cut it for all untapped sources. When I play the UW version, and sometimes a prairie stream comes into play tapped, it sometimes just costs the game. I'm playing 23 same as you. I'm not trying to convince you to get rid of them, but that's just from my experience.
If you're playing the mono U version, I think you might want to consider a U sweeper. Maybe something like aetherize, or engulf the shore, or even something like whiplash trap. I prefer the UW version, because of the fantastic sb options you have and sweepers/etc. And I think the U version needs some sort of sweepers/anti aggro tech.
Also, I don't think ancestral visions is actually good. It's too slow and doesn't feel like it does anything most of the time. But just my 2 cents
I played a Temple of Mastery with the same purpose as Halimar Depths for a while. It's impacted my mana base enough for me to cut it for all untapped sources. When I play the UW version, and sometimes a prairie stream comes into play tapped, it sometimes just costs the game. I'm playing 23 same as you. I'm not trying to convince you to get rid of them, but that's just from my experience.
If you're playing the mono U version, I think you might want to consider a U sweeper. Maybe something like aetherize, or engulf the shore, or even something like whiplash trap. I prefer the UW version, because of the fantastic sb options you have and sweepers/etc. And I think the U version needs some sort of sweepers/anti aggro tech.
Also, I don't think ancestral visions is actually good. It's too slow and doesn't feel like it does anything most of the time. But just my 2 cents
Etb lands and ancestral visions are a trap when building this deck. They are just bad :/
i've gotten destroyed by UW Tron. They just seem to have too many counterspells and during my boarded game i couldn't find spreading seas in time for their urza land. Are there any tips to combat counterspell-heavy decks? i'm guessing boseiju would be one of the ways right? the only other thing that i can think of is sphinx of the final word but at 7 cmc it doesn't seem logical in modern.
lost to bant eldrazi as i didn't know that i should be boarding in 4x leylines to combat Thought Knot Seer. Got all my relevant cards exiled with the TKS & displacer combo. question: if they use displacer to blink TKS, after i draw a card due to TKS leaving the battlefield, can i cast that card i just drew before TKS's ETB trigger happens?
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actually it is both a yes and a no
running more mines means running less interactive cards, and so losing the draw of remand means drawing less answers
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
Been following this thread for quite some time but yet to post anything.
I'm very new to modern, used to play during onslaught - mirrodin standard (at heart a UW Control player), stopped at Champions of Kamigawa and returned back to magic during the release of SOI. Started venturing into modern with the Modern Event Deck (which i upgraded to BW Tokens) and started playing in modern nights at the LGS and usually leaving without any wins.
Once i was matched against Mono-U Turns and I was amazed by the amount of consecutive turns my opponent took and also rendered my threats and spells useless whenever he passed the turn to me (thanks to remand, gigadrowse and exhaustion) and I was intrigued by the deck. Six months on, I finally completed Mono-U turns but lack the knowledge to pilot it properly.
I gotta say thanks to all the contributors here as this is where I learnt most of the strategy/tricks (eg when to drop a mine or when to hold up mana) since there isn't any feature matches in GP/SCG on twitch. I've been watching MTGO videos but it's hard to gauge a proper decklist as most videos are pretty old (diff meta maybe?).
Currently i'm somewhat adopting purklefluff's list as follows:-
4x time warp
3x temporal mastery
4x part the waterveil
1x walk the aeons
2x thing in the ice
4x serum visions
3x remand
2x delay
3x cryptic command
1x spell snare
3x gigadrowse
3x exhaustion
4x dictate of kruphix
1x gemstone caverns
1x inkmoth nexus
1x minamo
2x hallowed fountain
1x praire stream
4x flooded strand
2x river of tears
11x islands
I have a few questions:-
1. currently i do not have any snapcasters, how essential are they in furthering the game plan? granted you can flash back a time warp so does it mean we can play fewer walks?
2. when do we actually decide to proctect TITI? do we need to protect it at all (matchup dependant?) or is it there for our opponents to waste early game mana to remove it so that we can save ourselves a turn from being damaged?
3. I used to play howling mine over TITI, giving our opponents an extra card first would probably allow them to kill us faster. Playing TITI in its place feels right as an early blocker, however should i even block anything while facing naya burn? perhaps could anyone enlighten how should i play in the first 3-4 turns while facing naya burn? Blocking a guide/swiftspear and getting searing blazed later on makes me feel like it's a total waste.
4. with lesser mine effects, I find that playing 23 lands can be quite risky. Missing land drops can be really disastrous for us (i even had to main phase cryptic command to bounce an opponent's land + draw a card to ensure I'm ahead on tempo vs a jeskai control deck). Should I cut the fetches (reason I put it there is to thin the deck so that I have a higher chance of drawing spells, but I realise that I drew too many spells during the early turns and not enough lands) or should I increase land count to 24? The reason I'm splashing white is to mislead opponents during early turns or for my sideboard as follows:-
2x ghostly prison (i never found a time when i actually needed it yet)
1x commandeer
2x leyline of sanctity (should probably increase it to 4 to combat burn/discard)
2x spellskite
2x relic of progenitus
2x holy day (i know we should play path here but i find giving the opponent an extra land allows them to pull ahead faster than us)
2x hurkyll's recall
1x hibernation
1x spell snare
5. I feel like in most aggro matchups, remand is rather underpowered. Sometimes i feel like putting a playset of delay would be slightly better. Is it advisable to play 2x remand, 4x delay and cut the spell snare or is it yet again highly meta dependant? I'm playing in a diverse meta of merfolk, naya burn, tron, jeskai control, grixis control, infect..
Thanks in advance for your feedback!
they are not essential. obviously they are strong and usually if someone has access to it snapcaster is played as a 1x. you can pay it or you cannot, doesn't change that much
it depends. i usually do not protect titi since play it as 1x so if i cast her late game i can transform the card in the very same turn (miracled mastery, gigadrowse, remand, gigadrowse usually and it 8 mana with titi). if it is eaten by a path i get a land drop for free and basically becomes almost a time walk
depends on you if you want to protect it or save it... double bolt or attack + bolt kills the titi but gains us a turn so could save us the game
i see you do not plat land mine effects, maybe cut a fetch for a mikokoro? and maybe cut the delays for a land and another interactive card?
3x temporal mastery
4x part the waterveil
1x walk the aeons
2x thing in the ice
4x serum visions
3x remand
2x delay
3x cryptic command
1x spell snare
3x exhaustion
4x dictate of kruphix
1x gemstone caverns
1x inkmoth nexus
1x minamo
2x hallowed fountain
1x praire stream
4x flooded strand
2x river of tears
11x islands
-1 part the waterveil +1 temporal mastery would improve the deck a lot imho
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
1 gemstone caverns
1 inkmoth nexus
1 minamo, school at water's edge
2 hallowed fountain
1 praire stream
1 mikokoro, center of the sea
3 flooded strand
2 river of tears
12 islands
Creature
2 Thing in the ice
Spells
4 serum visions
3 cryptic command
2 delay
2 remand
1 spell snare
3 gigadrowse
3 exhaustion
4 time warp
4 temporal mastery
3 part the waterveil
1 walk the aeons
Mines
4 dictate of kruphix
2 ghostly prison
1 commandeer
2 spreading seas
2 holy day
2 relic of progenitus
4 leyline of sanctity
2 hurkyl's recall
I'll adopt to your suggestion to -1 ptw and +1 temporal, will try it out next week.
from my minimal experience, delay has been performing quite well for me compared to remand. i've done delay + remand on the same spell to buy 4 turns against a control deck and that would probably be one of the best feelings playing this deck so far.
so far i'm unable to find a mikokoro at my LGS and will use geier reach sanitarium as a substitute for now.
actually i always hope that my TITI gets pathed .
You can play both Mikokoro and sanitarium if you need
Delay plus remand seems cool but you are using two cards in order to do nothing.. I d cut delay for something else
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
Playing with 4 Fog actually feels unfair against the aggro decks. Much of their protection is focused on beating removal and Fog sidesteps that completely. It's great against the single-threat aggro decks, e.g. Infect, Zooicide, Bogles, UR Prowess with Kiln Fiend, etc. It's also great against swarm decks like Affinity, Merfolk, Elves, and Dredge. It depends on having a fast kill yourself since it only buys a turn but it lets you buy that turn while still developing your board. It plays a lot like a Time Warp for G against aggro, with the exception of Burn.
Avenger is great vs BGx because it doesn't need anything besides lands to be good. So what if they kill all your mines and discard your hand? Just play lands and rip Avenger and they're in trouble. For a while I only had 2 Avenger and I would play carefully with it since I had to make it count. With 4 I can slam the first Avenger since it's not hard to find a second. The only card that's really good against it is Maelstrom Pulse, which still leaves you with a 5/5.
Avenger is also great as a backup finisher vs decks that make comboing hard, e.g. Hatebears. Now I can just board in 4 Avenger and not worry about Gaddock Teeg.
I've considered a couple other fatties too. Myr Battlesphere is similar to Avenger and can be found by Ancient Stirrings. Hornet Queen is also similar but more defensive. Both of those creatures have a higher floor than Avenger since their tokens are better by default. However the ceiling on Avenger is so much higher that I think it's the clear winner. Avenger can easily generate 20+ power for its first attack and that's what I'm looking for from my backup finisher.
How about the delay and silence combo? Maybe 4 delay and 2 silence?
Infect went particularly easy :/ played 5 matches (never sideboarding) Lost only once because i got mana screwed
Played against rb madness, easy, gigadrowse exhaustion and cryptic were mvp
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
Infect went particularly easy :/ played 5 matches (never sideboarding because i wanted to test main60) Lost only once because i got mana screwed
Played against rb madness, easy, gigadrowse exhaustion and cryptic were mvp
list is:
17 island
1 mikokoro, center of the sea
1 geier reach sanitarium
1 oboro, palace in the clouds
1 minamo, school at water's edge
1 gemstone caverns
1 inkmoth nexus
2 creatures:
1 thing in the ice
1 emrakul, the aeons torn
12 warps:
4 temporal mastery
4 time warp
1 walk the aeons
2 part the waterveil
1 temporal trespass
1 howling mine
4 dictate of kruphix
1 jace beleren
17 tempo and control:
4 serum visions
4 gigadrowse
3 remand
1 boomerang
3 exhaustion
2 cryptic command
15 sideboard
4 chalice of the void
4 simian spirit guide
3 hurkyll's recall
1 commandeer
1 redirect
1 relic of progenitus
1 vendilion clique
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
I've had some job stuff to work through, but i check the Time Warp thread every day (sometimes more than once) so if you need to ask me anything I'll be sure to notice.
Keep up the chatter. This thread is awesome in that it's really active and helpful. Let's keep it that way!
See y'all soon
Ætherize
Boomerang
Deluge
Downpour
Downsize
Engulf the Shore
Polymorphist's Jest
Rapid Hybridization
Reality Spasm
Unsubstantiate
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
Thanks!
if there is anything i'd change honestly it is the halimar dephts,etb lands are not worth it in this deck
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
If you're playing the mono U version, I think you might want to consider a U sweeper. Maybe something like aetherize, or engulf the shore, or even something like whiplash trap. I prefer the UW version, because of the fantastic sb options you have and sweepers/etc. And I think the U version needs some sort of sweepers/anti aggro tech.
Also, I don't think ancestral visions is actually good. It's too slow and doesn't feel like it does anything most of the time. But just my 2 cents
Etb lands and ancestral visions are a trap when building this deck. They are just bad :/
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
lost to bant eldrazi as i didn't know that i should be boarding in 4x leylines to combat Thought Knot Seer. Got all my relevant cards exiled with the TKS & displacer combo. question: if they use displacer to blink TKS, after i draw a card due to TKS leaving the battlefield, can i cast that card i just drew before TKS's ETB trigger happens?