The question is, is the WB version winning more games than GW / Mono White, or you guys just want to throw some cool cards in, i've been reading the entire discussion and its just theory and cool cards, i am sticking with mono white for now. =D
The question is, is the WB version winning more games than GW / Mono White, or you guys just want to throw some cool cards in, i've been reading the entire discussion and its just theory and cool cards, i am sticking with mono white for now. =D
That is a very tough question, one that not only comes down to overall power, but also personal play style. I Still like mono white, and it is very consistent and laughs at blood moon. The black version does add discard in one form or another I prefer tidehollow sculler and add many other options. The green adds more powerful creatures to the field but probably most important gives us the the best possible one drop in the deck with noble hierarch and access to great meta card like qasali pridemage. Blue give you geist of saint traft and a plethora of tempo cards, red gives you access to bolt , more land destruction and combo from kiki-jiki, mirror breaker if that's what you are into. As I have said before i like black personally for two reasons; one, with the new addition of wasteland strangler opens up even more lines of play. Two, not only to you get discard, you also get to see the opponent's hand which can be even more valuable, and the reason i have been tempted in the past to run Gitaxian probe; the ability to know which tax will help when, can help you sculpt the perfect game-plan, knowing that if you double block with golem tokens to only lose one to removal and have the other one die uselessly in combat can be great knowledge. being able to take away an opponent's supreme verdict the turn before you win can mean the difference between winning and losing. As the meta shifts with the new bans we will see mono white is always an option, but with amulet and UR twin gone I think blood moon will be played less ( not that you won't see it), so I feel a bit more comfortable with a light splash into another color. Whichever way you want to go there is power there and many choices you can make to suit you or your play style, even in mono-white, which i played until a week ago, i found the decks power level to be great in the format.
Black Whitenhas proven its success over the last month (mtgo and paper results prove that) but go way back as two years. White Green was on the map first making it a clear choice for someone who has no familiarity with the deck. A vetted player may see meta shifts or line of play in other shards. Imo mono white and bw have wider range while green white has a more focused linear beat down plan. In the end, all decks are just as good as their pilot right?
I have been thinking about this, and would Weathered Wayfarer actually be good tech against the Eldrazi deck?
I'm not sure. It's a nonbo with one of our best cards against them, Leonin Arbiter. Searching up land destruction every turn isn't even that good, because if they have 4 or more lands and you plan on getting Tectonic Edge, they're likely already doing their thing. If you're searching up Ghost Quarter, then you're also going to be giving them a basic land which while it is disruptive, isn't hurting them all that much and they will still eventually cast their spells. If you have Leonin Arbiter out and are searching up Ghost Quarter then you already have a lot of mana and may not be behind on lands to actually use the ability. The game would be progressed enough where Ghost Quarter won't be great enough unless it's shutting down a late game Eye of Ugin that the opponent is relying on for gas.
In reality, because I see you're on the mono-white build and have no access to discard spells, running 3-4 Stony Silence in your sideboard would be key. Think about cards like Leyline of Sanctity as well which will shut down their targeted discard spells which should let us deploy our gameplan accordingly. Think about cards like Crucible of Worlds which would allow us to Ghost Quarter their lands every turn, which incidentally is also strong against Tron. Also, if you're not running Aven Mindcensor mainboard, I recommend running them in the SB (at least 2 somewhere in the 75 I'd say).
Aside from that, just keep playtesting and practicing. Sometimes they get the nuts, but sometimes we have hands on the play that just don't let them cast their spells. The matchup is very hand dependent in my opinion. A T3 Leonin Arbiter + Ghost Quarter can really just end the game sometimes, especially if you're shutting down some Expedition Maps as well.
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For the blue splash have you considered harbinger of the tides? Merfolk decks proved it is insane off of vial. You can curve it into reflector mage for awesome tempo plays vs creature decks!
Double blue is kind of difficult but i'm sure with mystic gate and more colored sources it could work out maybe? Because i find non black decks lack two drops, this could maybe fill the gap?
I have a hard enough time casting Harbinger of the Tides in Merfolk with its UU casting cost, let alone in this deck where the blue is a splash.
I have more than enough two drops that I want to cast in UW. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Leonin Arbiter and Meddling Mage if you're feeling risky. I play two Meddling Mage mainboard. You don't want to clog up the two drop slot too much, since we want the vial on 3 for Flickerwisp tricks. Adding in some Reflector Mage has been fun, too.
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Man, Reflector Mage + Displacer seems nuts. That may be a strong enough combo for the blue splash to be truly viable. I'll be testing it out myself as well, probably as a 3/3 split for the reason mentioned by cloud030.
@Optimism: Yes the sculler thing still works with sac but you only get one card. Having the combo in the deck wouldn't be horrible. Some WB players (especially those with lingering souls) already use viscera seer as their one drop. Actually helps a lot with Kitchen finks since a path can;t take it out all together. I usually run at least 1 anafenza with kitchen finks due to the synergy with blocking if nothing else. So having the combo in the deck maybe 2 ana, 3-4 finks and 4 seer and 1 redcap (most players due this to have the life gain and once they go infinite the scrye finds the redacap) wouldn't be a bad angle for the deck; however I would strongly suggest against going all out with chord of calling etc... each piece can do good things for us, but the more towards the combo you the lighter and lighter you have to go on taxers. if this type of deck interests you maybe something like the following could work.
That's an interesting write-up. I'm all for hybridization of archetypes in this format. We've seen it with twin, living end, pod, etc. I think you might be onto something here. But I wonder if Cartel Aristocrat is a better contender for the sac outlet rather than Viscera Seer. In a vacuum, sure the Seer is better but we don't really have many ways to be taking advantage of her scrying.
While I think adding the combo might hinder our consistency with being D&T, I imagine Viscera Seer might be important for the fringe scenarios where you have the combo ready to go for T3. It also works nicer with Vial.
If you have Cartel Aristocrat, the earliest you would be comboing off is T4 which isn't bad at all, but I think the scry and 1 less mana cost is worth it, especially if you're trying to combo off ASAP and scry into a Murderous Redcap to win the game by damage.
I urge you to try it and see how it does for you. Anything might look feasible in theory, but without cards like Chord of Calling or Collected Company to add consistency to the combo, I see us as a worse version of Abzan Company. But someone has to try first, right?
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That's an interesting write-up. I'm all for hybridization of archetypes in this format. We've seen it with twin, living end, pod, etc. I think you might be onto something here. But I wonder if Cartel Aristocrat is a better contender for the sac outlet rather than Viscera Seer. In a vacuum, sure the Seer is better but we don't really have many ways to be taking advantage of her scrying.
You are probably right, does help a bit more when it comes off the top and the sac outlet is usually the first piece of the combo to get disrupted. there are many other options for that role in modern, but being a two drop is pretty decent....maybe even devouring swarm as sac outlet wincon with evasion but not the protection of aristocrat. have a few more anafenza in the side for decks where you want to go all in combo. just ideas I think you re right with aristocrat being the logical answer....unless you run lingering souls or don't run confidant then the seer may be the way to go logically.
just recently picked the deck up as an alternative to my lantern control deck and have been seeing favorable results. i have noticed that while the deck excels against most of the ramp decks (i.e. eldrazi, and tron) it does have trouble against aggressive creature decks and draw go control decks (i.e. merfolk and jeskai control). i did some retooling with the deck to see if i could improve these match ups and it seems to be working. here is my list.
I guess I'm going to have to be the voice of reason. Adding Melira to BW D&T is a bad idea.
Although this deck often runs a few copies of Kitchen Finks, you're talking about including cards that are fringe playable in BW (Viscera Seer and Anafenza) to begin with, and then adding a third color for a card that has no synergy with the rest of our deck. If you want to play Melira combo, Abzan CoCo is a viable deck in this format. But there is just no reason to try and make it work here.
I've looked at Junk Taxes before, and I'm not opposed to it. But going the Melira combo route is fantasy. I would never water down the D&T game plan on the off chance that I assemble a handful of singletons, in a third-color microsplash.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
I guess I'm going to have to be the voice of reason. Adding Melira to BW D&T is a bad idea.
Although this deck often runs a few copies of Kitchen Finks, you're talking about including cards that are fringe playable in BW (Viscera Seer and Anafenza) to begin with, and then adding a third color for a card that has no synergy with the rest of our deck. If you want to play Melira combo, Abzan CoCo is a viable deck in this format. But there is just no reason to try and make it work here.
I've looked at Junk Taxes before, and I'm not opposed to it. But going the Melira combo route is fantasy. I would never water down the D&T game plan on the off chance that I assemble a handful of singletons, in a third-color microsplash.
Not Something I am per se interested in, doesn't really fit my style. But I could see how it could be appealing to others sans no melira just anafenza and seer. i like the consistency of more (and different) taxes over most other options, which is why finks doesn't normally make my builds, he is usually forced out with other more controlling or taxing cards...or at least something that flies.
I guess I'm going to have to be the voice of reason. Adding Melira to BW D&T is a bad idea.
Although this deck often runs a few copies of Kitchen Finks, you're talking about including cards that are fringe playable in BW (Viscera Seer and Anafenza) to begin with, and then adding a third color for a card that has no synergy with the rest of our deck. If you want to play Melira combo, Abzan CoCo is a viable deck in this format. But there is just no reason to try and make it work here.
I've looked at Junk Taxes before, and I'm not opposed to it. But going the Melira combo route is fantasy. I would never water down the D&T game plan on the off chance that I assemble a handful of singletons, in a third-color microsplash.
Not Something I am per se interested in, doesn't really fit my style. But I could see how it could be appealing to others sans no melira just anafenza and seer. i like the consistency of more (and different) taxes over most other options, which is why finks doesn't normally make my builds, he is usually forced out with other more controlling or taxing cards...or at least something that flies.
What alternatives to finks do you recommend? Its resilience and help in the burn match up are reasons why I use it, but would be open to suggestions for alternatives.
@Artfrank: depends on the build. Got pushed out by displacer and strangler in my BW build. Taken out for meta calls before that like spirit of the labyrinth and such. It is not hat i don't see the value in finks it is there, it's that I end up cutting him for other cards. I find with a number of kor firewalker, BF-T and mark of Asylum can take burn out. Thalia is amazing in this matchup and leonin can be amazing in the naya version. If burn is in high numbers is your meta by all means run finks but its just not in high numbers in my neck of the woods.
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I'm not sure. It's a nonbo with one of our best cards against them, Leonin Arbiter. Searching up land destruction every turn isn't even that good, because if they have 4 or more lands and you plan on getting Tectonic Edge, they're likely already doing their thing. If you're searching up Ghost Quarter, then you're also going to be giving them a basic land which while it is disruptive, isn't hurting them all that much and they will still eventually cast their spells. If you have Leonin Arbiter out and are searching up Ghost Quarter then you already have a lot of mana and may not be behind on lands to actually use the ability. The game would be progressed enough where Ghost Quarter won't be great enough unless it's shutting down a late game Eye of Ugin that the opponent is relying on for gas.
In reality, because I see you're on the mono-white build and have no access to discard spells, running 3-4 Stony Silence in your sideboard would be key. Think about cards like Leyline of Sanctity as well which will shut down their targeted discard spells which should let us deploy our gameplan accordingly. Think about cards like Crucible of Worlds which would allow us to Ghost Quarter their lands every turn, which incidentally is also strong against Tron. Also, if you're not running Aven Mindcensor mainboard, I recommend running them in the SB (at least 2 somewhere in the 75 I'd say).
Aside from that, just keep playtesting and practicing. Sometimes they get the nuts, but sometimes we have hands on the play that just don't let them cast their spells. The matchup is very hand dependent in my opinion. A T3 Leonin Arbiter + Ghost Quarter can really just end the game sometimes, especially if you're shutting down some Expedition Maps as well.
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Double blue is kind of difficult but i'm sure with mystic gate and more colored sources it could work out maybe? Because i find non black decks lack two drops, this could maybe fill the gap?
I have more than enough two drops that I want to cast in UW. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Leonin Arbiter and Meddling Mage if you're feeling risky. I play two Meddling Mage mainboard. You don't want to clog up the two drop slot too much, since we want the vial on 3 for Flickerwisp tricks. Adding in some Reflector Mage has been fun, too.
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If you have Cartel Aristocrat, the earliest you would be comboing off is T4 which isn't bad at all, but I think the scry and 1 less mana cost is worth it, especially if you're trying to combo off ASAP and scry into a Murderous Redcap to win the game by damage.
I urge you to try it and see how it does for you. Anything might look feasible in theory, but without cards like Chord of Calling or Collected Company to add consistency to the combo, I see us as a worse version of Abzan Company. But someone has to try first, right?
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4 dark confidant
4 leonin arbiter
3 thalia, guardian of thraben
4 tidehollow sculler
2 brimaz, king of oreskos
3 flickerwisp
4 kitchen finks
spells : 14
4 æther vial
4 path to exile
4 thoughtseize
1 sword of fire and ice
1 sword of light and shadow
2 caves of koilos
1 fetid heath
4 ghost quarter
4 godless shrine
3 isolated chapel
2 plains
2 shambling vent
1 swamp
3 tectonic edge
3 burrenton forge-tender
2 disenchant
3 rest in peace
3 stony silence
2 dismember
2 orzhov pontiff
what do you guys think?
Although this deck often runs a few copies of Kitchen Finks, you're talking about including cards that are fringe playable in BW (Viscera Seer and Anafenza) to begin with, and then adding a third color for a card that has no synergy with the rest of our deck. If you want to play Melira combo, Abzan CoCo is a viable deck in this format. But there is just no reason to try and make it work here.
I've looked at Junk Taxes before, and I'm not opposed to it. But going the Melira combo route is fantasy. I would never water down the D&T game plan on the off chance that I assemble a handful of singletons, in a third-color microsplash.
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What alternatives to finks do you recommend? Its resilience and help in the burn match up are reasons why I use it, but would be open to suggestions for alternatives.
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