What is your opinion on Phyrexian Metamorph in this deck ?
I can see some interesting options opening with this card, but it can also be a dead card with an empty board (which isn't usually the case though...).
So I had a ton of local success with my old list constantly going 3-0, 3-1 or 4-0 depending on the store I went to but I always found that I won a huge % of my games from just locking out my opponents early/tempoing them out before they could stabilize. Eternal Witness was great and did let me grind out some games and Serra Avenger is a nice efficient beater but I really want to make a successful full on tax/tempo version.
I'll be playing the following list this week (had to get a few more foil Mangaras so was only able to put it together this week):
What's your gameplan against creature decks ? Your creatures aren't great beaters (and your removal is limited) and outracing the opponent can be tough even when he doesn't use fliers.
And to add to this it stops elves which is a really bad match up imho.
Chalice of the Void is really terrible against elves. Trust me. Their threats comes in Archdruid, collected company or chord of calling. Also, against 4 caverns we don't even stand a chance to counter their elves.
What is your opinion on Phyrexian Metamorph in this deck ?
I can see some interesting options opening with this card, but it can also be a dead card with an empty board (which isn't usually the case though...).
In general, you shouldn't play it.
...
You might have to ask a more specific question.
Phyrexian Metamorph is the cheapest Clone variant with staying power. It copies artifacts, but unless your metagame is filled with artifacts, it's usually going to target a creature. Because it's usually targeting a creature, most people that run this effect in D&T choose Phantasmal Image. Image costs less mana, and it effectively copies EtB effects. Once or twice, I've tried Clever Impersonator, because that can also copy Planeswalkers. (It's really funny when you exile a Karn with your own Karn.) But usually, Impersonator is just a more expensive Phantasmal Image.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
P.Image can't be played in mono-white as opposed to P.Metamorph, and it can't be flickered with F.wisp or R.Angel.
Copying an artifact like: Batterskull or a Sword can be rather good.
And obviously copying a "fatty" against Tron (Emrakul, Wurmcoil.E) or Green Ramp (Craterhoof.B, P.Titan) or an Abzan creature (Goyf, S.Rhino) is a good option in addition to copying your own Wisps and Angels.
I've been playing D&T for a while, and to my knowledge, Phyrexian Metamorph has never seen play in mono-white. It occasionally sees play in WU D&T, which is why I referred you to Phantasmal Image.
If your metagame is full of Batterskull and swords, then I can see why it might be useful. That said, outside of Affinity (where most of the threats are creatures anyway), I don't think artifacts make up a relevant portion of the competitive metagame.
If you intend to use Metamorph to copy an Emrakul, Craterhoof Behemoth, or Primeval Titan, you've already lost. The last two win the game on the turn they come into play, and you'll probably have to survive an Annihilator trigger to make the first one happen.
If you're going to copy a creature, Phantasmal Image is just more efficient. If you're going to copy a creature in mono-white, then for 3 and 2 life, Metamorph can help you can do that. I still wouldn't recommend it, but you can give it a shot.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
Hey Guys, I haven't posted or done anything since school's started, but I've got a RPTQ this weekend in Pittsburgh that I'll be bringing D&T to. I've been testing amongst the RIW crew and online. The above list is what I've landed on.
You'll notice the inclusion of swords and ***'s. The swords have been amazing, in anything grindy. For ex gb/x midrange. Wrath of God's a new addition after recognizing the worst match-ups are: Affinity, Elves, and sometimes Merfolk. The idea of W.O.G. in a creature deck is kind of crazy, but in practice it plays out pretty well. No one sees it coming, just put up enough resistance for them to over commit, and it's game. Also, don't play Thalia before a W.O.G.
Anyway, that's my tech. Not too much of a change from SCG Cinci. Cut Seachrome coast, Blade Splicer, And Mindcensor for: 1 Plains, 1 Brimaz, and 1 Sword of F&I.
Cutting Stony from the SB kind of was shocking, but the deck really relies on it's own artifacts too, so I think Kataki is just way better. And testing proved that.
Anyway, hopefully it's enough to qualify for the pro tour!
I'm of the camp that feels dropping one drops (aside from the core 8) entirely is the best plan as it gives you more space for the cards that reinforce the strategy.
Which cards would you suggest ?
For me, the slots that would normally be used by the usual 2-4 1-drops are now partially housing Serra Avenger and Spellskite, both of which I'd rather have than any of the 1-drops.
And to add to this it stops elves which is a really bad match up imho.
Don't forget alotofInfect, abigchunkofBogle, and alltheeggs. It also guts Burn and Affinity as effectively as any other card I've used against them individually except for Hurkyl's Recall. The beauty is, this hurts them both.
Chalice of the Void is really terrible against elves. Trust me. Their threats comes in Archdruid, collected company or chord of calling. Also, against 4 caverns we don't even stand a chance to counter their elves.
4 copies of Ghost Quarter and 3 copies of Tectonic Edge help immensely with that, but I agree that it doesn't really solve the problem. Collected Company is a very frustrating card against this deck if your opponent can play it. The only decent direct answer I've found is Hallowed Moonlight, but it serves no other practical use, and Company-driven decks aren't as common as we all thought they'd be by now, so it's hard to justify burning as many as 3 slots to counter that. The best option the conventional strategy has is to just try to keep your opponent off of green mana as best you can, but even that isn't a realistic solution. Ultimately, keeping land counts low and Thalia in play is the best course of action I've found, but Chalice is a nice Turn Two irritant.
“Modern has provided us a non-rotating format that is far more accessible than Legacy or Vintage, but still retains many of the qualities that people enjoy in those formats—such as a more stable metagame, the ability to play and tweak the same deck week after week, and simply a much more powerful card pool than Standard.”
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
Hey Guys, I haven't posted or done anything since school's started, but I've got a RPTQ this weekend in Pittsburgh that I'll be bringing D&T to. I've been testing amongst the RIW crew and online. The above list is what I've landed on.
You'll notice the inclusion of swords and ***'s. The swords have been amazing, in anything grindy. For ex gb/x midrange. Wrath of God's a new addition after recognizing the worst match-ups are: Affinity, Elves, and sometimes Merfolk. The idea of W.O.G. in a creature deck is kind of crazy, but in practice it plays out pretty well. No one sees it coming, just put up enough resistance for them to over commit, and it's game. Also, don't play Thalia before a W.O.G.
Anyway, that's my tech. Not too much of a change from SCG Cinci. Cut Seachrome coast, Blade Splicer, And Mindcensor for: 1 Plains, 1 Brimaz, and 1 Sword of F&I.
Cutting Stony from the SB kind of was shocking, but the deck really relies on it's own artifacts too, so I think Kataki is just way better. And testing proved that.
Anyway, hopefully it's enough to qualify for the pro tour!
Hey Elliot, great to see your post! Your participating in a RPTQ means you must've won a PPTQ - was it with D&T? In any case, with regards to your list, I quite like it :).
I think your maindeck is almost exactly the same as what I consider to be a "optimal" mono-W D&T list. Aside from the singleton Seachrome Coast, I run 2x Kitchen Finks and 1x Dismember instead of your 1x Kytheon and 2x Swords (though at this point I'm not entirely sure if 2x Finks + 1x Dismember is a great choice). I don't want to keep beating the same dead horse and talk/ask about Kytheon, especially since there seems to be sufficient consensus that he's a great 1-drop (I just have not been able to try/see for myself), but the other 2 are worth some thinking about..
Burn aside, Kitchen Finks shines brightest in the Jund/Abzan/Grixis match-up, where it almost always represents a 2-for-1 (I don't think Burn should be the only reason to run Finks, since D&T is good enough against it, and typically 2-3 sideboard cards are enough). Granted, if you're able to equip one of the Swords and benefit off of it even just one time, that's an equally sizable advantage, if not bigger. An obvious concern is that with the Swords requiring a fair bit of mana to use (especially in the early game), you open yourself up to losing tempo (with them killing your creature in response to the Equip activation) or simply losing a freshly played Sword (to anything from Abrupt Decay, Maelstrom Pulse to the oh-so-ever-present Kolaghan's Command). And if your plan is to use it into the later stages of the game, that makes it a somewhat dead-er card early on than if it were to be some other creature (we can all agree that it's less flexible in this regard). Basically, the swords are obviously great and can have incredible pay-off - it's all about how consistently you can get it to work in your favour. So I guess my question is: how have your extensive experience with them been *really*? (1) ESPECIALLY in match-ups like Jund/Abzan/Grixis, and 2)how does it affect your other matchups?)
Moving on to the sideboard..
Auriok Champions over Kor Firewalkers, right? I can see that as being a good choice, with Auriok Champions have more impact in a broader range of matchups than Firewalkers.
Could you explain your choice of 1x Relic and 1x Rest in Peace, over 2x Rest in Peace? I suppose RiP is somewhat of a non-bo with Sword of Light and Shadow. On the other hand, RiP is great against Grixis Control, while Relic is open to getting K-Commanded (somewhat of a minor point).
Grafdigger's Cage is for CoCo/Chord decks? How has your experience with this card been in those matchups?
How many post-sideboard games have you played with Crucible of Worlds? In how many games is it amazing, and in how many games did you find that it'd be more impactful if it were something else?
I personally like to run 3x Mirran Crusaders - they are absolute bombs vs Jund/Abzan/Grixis, and even in matchups like Infect, KikiChord, Elves, etc. Did you consider running 3?
(Follow-up question) in what matchup is Wilt-Leaf Liege best?
Have there been games where you resolved Kataki and lost? More importantly, have there been games/situations where you resolved Kataki but wished it was a Stony Silence? You seem pretty confident in your choice, so I'm not gonna doubt you too much about it.
I like the Wrath of God tech. I think that it's honestly one of the only reliable ways of winning against Merfolk. Unfortunately when I tried it, I only had 1 in my sideboard so I very rarely saw it. Perhaps 2x makes a big difference.
D&T obviously has a great amount of sideboard options - how often are you taking your Swords out? And in what matchups?
Those are just off-the-top-of-my-head questions that I could think of. I'm sure you've thought of some/most/all of them at some point already. Since you have a pretty diverse sideboard, I suppose a more general question would be: is it better to diversity your sideboard? Or are there some key Tier-1 matchups that you'd much rather hedge against?
Hello 2imu. Great analysis and well organized response! Thank you for your thought out post, I was really happy to see that. I'll try and answer your questions the best I can.
I won a PPTQ with D&T back in August. It had about 60-70 people and a room full of burn. Luckily, then I had two MD finks to help mitigate the damage.
Kytheon has been absolutely amazing. He's actually a taxer in disguise, and helps break up stalled board states through his taunt ability. I absolutely love him, and have considered putting a second in. As for the singleton sea chrome coast, that's just to help on the rare chance of activating spells kite where our life total is valuable. There use to be two coasts, but I had the coming into play tapped ability cost me a game.
For the analysis of the swords. I had played just one, the sword of light and shadow, at the modern SCG Cincinnati and it single handily won about 3 matches. Adding the second, while limiting diminishing returns is HUGE. We have a critical mass of creatures that already are must answer, putting swords into the mix only heightens that, I believe. I think it's an unbelievable alternative angle of attack, connecting just once feels like the games over, and despite in a world of Kolaghan's command it's still worth it. You want to play threats then sword, so you don't lose tempo. The testing shows that swords are tremendously good in the gb/x match up and grixis. How it plays out is they spend a lot of resources removing early taxers and threats, that the board state becomes a little more stalled out, which is perfect for taking advantage of. Other match ups, is a hit and miss, for example against tokens you probably don't want Fire/Ice, but Light/Shadow is the nuts. And elves I would say is vice versa. Against combo, your probably don't want either.
- Yah I absolutely love the Auriok Champions over the Firewalkers. They come in against burn obviously, but also against zoo, and sometimes twin.
- The Relic/ Rip split is just due to diminishing returns. They do similar things, but I don't ever want two rip. Against gb/x midrange I used to find that siding in two Rip's was a bad feeling, as we want to keep our threat density high, so this helps alleviate that imo.
- Grafdigger's is for coco/chord/reanimator, the cage has been awesome, and it helps act as a 3rd rip for reanimator.
- I was running 3 Mirran Crusader for a hot minute, but I didn't feel they had as much of a presence in play as I'd hoped for. I think 2 is a good number, plus my sideboard is on the high variety side. The wild-leaf liege I like specifically for the gb/x midrange decks, is a great body (bolt proof/decay proof) and it helps scare the +1 tick away from Lilly.
- Surprisingly I have not had a Kataki and lost, knock on wood. There have however been PLENTY of times where I had t2 stony silence and lost. For that reason I fell Kataki is VASTLY superior. Especially because we kind of need aether vials for g2 and g3 to help catch up to the affinity explosion.
- I'm sold on the Wrath of Gods too. I doubt I'll side them in much, but it's a good safety button to have.
- I take out swords if Im playing against tron, or if I have the potential to die turn 4 or before. Except burn, I leave Light/Shadow in.
For Sideboard plans I think the answer is to hedge the worst tier 1 matchups like affinity and merfolk, THEN diversify. That's what my plan was when building the sb, and I think that shows the thought process a bit. I think against other tier 1 decks we're pretty good against, especially twin, so extra hate isn't really needed.
Thank you so much for your questions again. Hopefully I hit all your questions, if not just holler back.
@ D90Dennis14
I have also tested Phyrexian Metamorph in my WR Death & Taxes build, it has some cute interactions and a lot of flexibilty but overall I was not impressed.
The main problem I have is when you face an empty board and all you wish to do is pressue your opponent, Phyrexian Metamorph will not help you.
As a (pseudo) three drop this is not acceptable, since all our three drops (and anything above) should be able to either heavily disrupt the opponent or pressure our opponent.
If you copy their best creature, you might manage to get back in the game, but most of the times you end up in a stalemate, which ultimately favours your opponent (against most opponents).
I can give you an example during my testing sessions:
My opponent was playing Junk and had a Tarmogoyf in play, I had an arbiter on the field and a metamorph in hand.
On my turn I played Metamorph and copied his Tarmogoyf (4/5). On his turn he played a Siege Rhino and I regretted my decision to copy the goyf.
On my turn, I drew Flickerwisp, flickered my metamorph and then copied his Siege Rhino, effectivly negating the lifeloss.
In his next turn, he dropped another Siege Rhino and pretty much crushed me with his rhinos and goyf.
(1 leonin arbiter, 1 flicker wisp and 1 phyrexian rhino vs 2 siege rhinos and 1 tarmogoyf at 8 life)
I know, this might be a bad example but it should illustrate that Metamorph gives you a chance to even the odds, but it only balances the board state, it doesn't give you an edge (if you're behind). Imagine the same scenario with Blade Splicer, Mirran Crusader or Mangara of Corondor instead of Metamorph. I still might have lost, but I think I would have had better chances to win.
With this build, I had rarely problems casting Ajani, since Springleaf Drum and Abbot of Keral Keep help tremendously to get the needed mana/land drops. Springleaf Drum also enables a turn three Ajani and helps fixing our mana, especially under the influence of Magus of the Moon. Magus of the Moon pretty much overpeforms in the matchups he is good in and still does something against other matchups (e.g. renders utility lands or man lands useless) while providing a 2/2 body.
The Flagstones + Ghost Quarter engine helps me fix my mana problems, even in the presence of an arbiter, while also providing fuel for Grim Lavamancer.
Overall, I like this list a lot more than my previous one.
It is more consistent, has a better manabase and sometimes feels even more disruptive than the previous list thanks to Magus of the Moon and Ajani Vengeant.
Right now, the only cards I cosider cutting are Grim Lavamancer and maybe one Leonin Arbiter, but they don't really match up with cards I'd like to include in my list (e.g. Sword of Light and Shadow, Hero of Bladehold or Mirran Crusader).
Any criticism and suggestions are welcome.
@ Be_lakor:
Your most recent list looks very aggressive, with a lower curve and land count. Especially in list with Lightning Bolts I would recommend trying Abbot of Keral Keep out. He helps you with your land drops or offers raw card advantage. Path, Bolt and Vial all trigger prowess, allowing him to be agressive as well, especially useful with late drawn vials.
Flickerwisp! Fix it! I don't care whatever splash a deck has, there's no excuse to have less than 4 in this deck.
As for Springleaf Drum, how often is it helpful? It seems like it's supposed to be redundancy for vial, but if you have no 1-drop it seems horribly inefficient, as well as a miserable topdeck. I guess it's there to speed up your 4-drops, but at the same time you're probably losing a bit of tempo to do so.
Let us know if the dreaded situation where Magus of the Moon turns on your opponents fetches happens. Probably the biggest complaint I've heard for the Magus, along with also turning off our utility lands as well.
I dunno, I think there are plenty of times where landing a Sword is going to win you a game you could've lost otherwise. For example, if you're playing vs Grixis Twin or something and Vialed in a Serra Avenger on their end step while they're tapped out, untap with 5 mana, cast and equip. Where they might have just untapped and Bolted/Terminated/whatever, now things are much more awkward for them. You also probably clocked them for 5 and got a Wisp or something back in hand with your vial up. That's a game where hitting them for three and then having it eat a bolt is pretty different than 5, get a dude, force you to have Kommand + Bolt, even better if the card you got back was Wisp.
Obviously there's blowout potential, but I usually think of it as a later game card in the first place, where I don't really think I'd be getting any less blown out just drawing and casting a Mirran Crusader that eats the Bolt. I think it forces them even more to have the right card at the right time, while increasing our clock and slowing them down/making things awkward, which is basically what most of our cards do.
The Phyrexian Metamorph convo: I think Kolaghan's Command makes excessive artifacts a little to scary for main deck play. Other than that, the card seems to be a bit difficult to get maximum value from. A list ran a copy a couple years ago though, so it may be worth running back in the current environment for data.
Played Monday Modern Last night and went 4-0 (with improved sb plan): The sideboard back has been updated to attack more of the control and combo decks in the format. Losing to decks because of time and anemic draws is the worst way to get sacked at a larger event. I also went -1 mutavault, +1 tectonic edge in the main deck.
I'd love an additional Sin Collector but may not have a way to make room. Currently the list has had a mega amazing main deck plan and very strong sb plan. But I'm not sure if the plan went wide enough against control/heavy mana advantage decks (tron scapeshift jeskai control etc) There was a remarkable amount of these decks at the last 5k I went to. If you guys have any ideas or insight it would be appreciated!
Hello 2imu. Great analysis and well organized response! Thank you for your thought out post, I was really happy to see that. I'll try and answer your questions the best I can.
I won a PPTQ with D&T back in August. It had about 60-70 people and a room full of burn. Luckily, then I had two MD finks to help mitigate the damage.
Kytheon has been absolutely amazing. He's actually a taxer in disguise, and helps break up stalled board states through his taunt ability. I absolutely love him, and have considered putting a second in. As for the singleton sea chrome coast, that's just to help on the rare chance of activating spells kite where our life total is valuable. There use to be two coasts, but I had the coming into play tapped ability cost me a game.
For the analysis of the swords. I had played just one, the sword of light and shadow, at the modern SCG Cincinnati and it single handily won about 3 matches. Adding the second, while limiting diminishing returns is HUGE. We have a critical mass of creatures that already are must answer, putting swords into the mix only heightens that, I believe. I think it's an unbelievable alternative angle of attack, connecting just once feels like the games over, and despite in a world of Kolaghan's command it's still worth it. You want to play threats then sword, so you don't lose tempo. The testing shows that swords are tremendously good in the gb/x match up and grixis. How it plays out is they spend a lot of resources removing early taxers and threats, that the board state becomes a little more stalled out, which is perfect for taking advantage of. Other match ups, is a hit and miss, for example against tokens you probably don't want Fire/Ice, but Light/Shadow is the nuts. And elves I would say is vice versa. Against combo, your probably don't want either.
- Yah I absolutely love the Auriok Champions over the Firewalkers. They come in against burn obviously, but also against zoo, and sometimes twin.
- The Relic/ Rip split is just due to diminishing returns. They do similar things, but I don't ever want two rip. Against gb/x midrange I used to find that siding in two Rip's was a bad feeling, as we want to keep our threat density high, so this helps alleviate that imo.
- Grafdigger's is for coco/chord/reanimator, the cage has been awesome, and it helps act as a 3rd rip for reanimator.
- I was running 3 Mirran Crusader for a hot minute, but I didn't feel they had as much of a presence in play as I'd hoped for. I think 2 is a good number, plus my sideboard is on the high variety side. The wild-leaf liege I like specifically for the gb/x midrange decks, is a great body (bolt proof/decay proof) and it helps scare the +1 tick away from Lilly.
- Surprisingly I have not had a Kataki and lost, knock on wood. There have however been PLENTY of times where I had t2 stony silence and lost. For that reason I fell Kataki is VASTLY superior. Especially because we kind of need aether vials for g2 and g3 to help catch up to the affinity explosion.
- I'm sold on the Wrath of Gods too. I doubt I'll side them in much, but it's a good safety button to have.
- I take out swords if Im playing against tron, or if I have the potential to die turn 4 or before. Except burn, I leave Light/Shadow in.
For Sideboard plans I think the answer is to hedge the worst tier 1 matchups like affinity and merfolk, THEN diversify. That's what my plan was when building the sb, and I think that shows the thought process a bit. I think against other tier 1 decks we're pretty good against, especially twin, so extra hate isn't really needed.
Thank you so much for your questions again. Hopefully I hit all your questions, if not just holler back.
No problem at all, I enjoy the process of dissecting and analyzing decklists and card choices, particularly ones that are able to find a good amount of success. Speaking of which, winning a PPTQ with that many people is really an impressive feat (even if some luck was involved in the matchups :P) - congratulations! Putting D&T on the map. Now I'll try to push the discussion further with some follow-up comments/questions.
The Swords
Obviously, and not surprisingly, the inclusion of Swords always becomes a common point of contention between D&T players. While I think everyone agrees that they're high-reward cards, when it comes to them also being high-risk, I don't doubt that different players with different views/opinions on the Swords will inevitably play differently (i.e. play in a way to set up situations where the Swords will have high impact on the game). And this is not to disparage players who don't see consistent success with Swords (I certainly have not, or at least have not tried hard enough), but by virtue of being relatively less flexible than other cards in the deck, I imagine it takes a slightly different skillset to maximize the Swords' potential, meaning perhaps it can work. And to some extent, your RPTQ matches might shed a bit more light on the matter.
I do agree that in many matchups the opponent is almost always forced to answer most of our creatures immediately (Thalia, Arbiter, Mindcensor, Militant (vs Grixis anyway), and Kytheon). In other words, many matches play out like this: I play a creature, he counters/kills it. I play another, same thing, until I play something that does not get answered. Games in which they are unable to answer the first couple of threats are generally already won. So I suppose that playing with this in mind can help maximize a Sword's potential.
We could also look at it another way: if I/you were to not play the Swords, what would take their place? For me, it'd probably be Kitchen Finks (to date, I am not a real fan of Vryn Wingmare in Modern, as they do absolutely nothing to make our worst matchups any better - which is really where the deck needs the most help), since mono-W simply just doesn't have as many high-powered options as other colour combinations. While Kitchen Finks has a serviceable body, and is annoying/difficult to remove, is it a "must-answer" threat? Probably not. As such, it's conceivable that a Sword would give the opponent a more difficult choice to make than a Kitchen Finks, or another creature.
But at the same time, you must admit that running Swords (particularly more than one) increases the probability of bad draws and awkward hands (even if only slightly). The big questions are how much that is, if it's tolerable in a tournament with many rounds, and if the upside is worth those odds. And obviously, it's nigh-impossible to quantitatively get a good assessment of this, so :P.
Now, not to detract the conversation away from your deck (mono-W), but for me, opening up a discussion about the viability of Swords invariably leads to the question of: is it possible that Swords are generally better in a different colour combination version of D&T? White-Green offers Noble Hierach, which could either accelerate playing a Sword or just offer you more flexibility in when/how you use it. There are also some cute Christmas-land-hypotheticals, like having access to Eternal Witness to get a dead Sword back (I wouldn't condone this). White-Black offers ways of taking the opponent's answers away with Tidehollow Sculler. I would imagine that Lingering Souls also makes Swords much more versatile and robust. And a subtle point is that one of W/B's biggest weaknesses is its own manabase, and playing a couple more colourless spells might somewhat alleviate that.
This also leads me to another question, out of curiosity: is there a reason you've stuck with mono-White D&T? Or have you tried other versions and have some reason for playing mono-W over other alternatives?
Other Comments
Anyway, bringing my comments back to your decklist:
I like your reason for playing 1x Relic and 1x Rest in Peace. I'm curious to try that myself.
By Reanimator, you mean Goryo's Vengeance, or Grishoalbrand or whatever?
I'm curious as to what the situations/scenarios where in which you found Mirran Crusaders underwhelming. In my experience, in the matchups where Crusaders were relevant, I was always happy to see it. Most notably against Tasigur/Angler, which the only other options are if you have Path to Exile, or you're in a position to race (which is a very good position to be in).
What's your exact sideboard plan against Affinity? And how has that matchup been for you, historically?
You mentioned that your worst Tier 1 matchups include Affinity and Merfolk, which I agree can be quite miserable. How is your Jund/Abzan matchup generally?
I will agree with @mightbenno that the Crucible seems a bit unnecessary. If there was one card in your 75 that grabs my attention the most (in terms of cutting), it'd be that one. Granted, it's probably good/great against Tron or UWR control or maybe UW control.
Speaking of potential cuts, have you considered Ethersworn Canonist? Although I don't come across it often, I'm very wary of Living End, and Ethersworn Canonist shuts that down (along with Snapcaster Mage).
Those are my thoughts for the time being. I think a lot of them are just questions that are interesting to think about, and I don't really expect you to change your list going into your upcoming tournament (at least not without substantial testing of your own). But of course, I wish you best of luck, and hope you make it to the Pro Tour :D!
@Sanro Thank you and good luck in the MKM tourney. The singleton Crucible is a silver bullet in any control matchup, or where lands are at a premium. For example Tron and Bloom. Being able to recycle your LD effects is highly valuable, but also canopies and in some cases the mutavaults. My stance on wingmare, is it's a great card in formats with brainstorm. Wingmare is a power house in legacy, but it doesn't translate well to modern. D&T does a great job already against decks with a high volume of non-creature spells, adding another redundant tax doesn't help our poor matchups.
@mightybenno I would argue it's more of a moderate risk-high reward scenario in dealing with the swords. Even if the opponent were to kill the creature after spending two mana to activate, we still have a sword waiting for the next guy we drop. I've found in testing and multiple times, the swords have flipped board states into complete 180's. Even having a creature with a sword on it deters a lot of attacks, let alone a connection gives D&T a fairly large amount of card advantage. Something the deck normally doesn't have options to.
I've messed around with a g/w variant of hierarchs and swords, but wasn't really impressed. Hierarch's + Vial felt like the deck was too threat light.
As for the crucible I feel like it's great against Tron and Bloom, where the swords aren't very profitable. Maybe the crucible is wrong, but I also like diversifying the type of threats I deploy too. Thank you for your feed back!
@skeet70 I agree with everything you said.
@2imu Your analysis of how to play swords is spot on. Play threats your opponent thinks they need to answer, then drop the one they weren't ready for! If I were to drop the swords I'd probably cut the Brimaz too, and add a dismember, a blade splicer, and an aven mind censor. Just probably more back to the more traditional build. Which..sounds boring.
I don't believe having a swords in the opening hand is necessarily a bad thing, maybe having two would be bad, but having one.. I'd be happy with. I would argue in a highly creature dense deck like ours, having something to elevate their individual threat level is highly valuable. So to answer your question, there's a lot of upside with a moderate amount of risk.
Straying away from mono-white is a valid question, especially pertaining to the merits of swords in a Hierarch-Taxes deck. Like I said above though, in theory it seems that'd work, but in practice decreasing the decks threat density in favor of mana dorks leaves us open to the opponent having the luxury of selecting their removal more precisely. Also, hierarchs leave us more open to pyroclasm, Firespout, etc. I'd recommend testing it though, maybe I messed up the gw variant, but it seemed to have some holes. Although T2 Arbiter + GQ is sexy. WB plays very differently, arguably it has more power, but not at expense of the manabase.
Actually,I had started out with the GW Taxes variant, w/ coco's before moving to Mono white. I was really impressed with gw coco taxes, but i didn't like how it sacrificed it's air game(Serra, flicker wisp, Resto), and how much it relied on the t1 mana dork (mine was aethervial-less). I messed with UW taxes for a hot minute, utilizing Spreading Seas and really enjoyed that build. I still think UW could have merit, but in the end I think Mono White D&T is the most superior option for the following reasons:
A) 10 Superbly Interactive Non basic lands. My version plays 4 GQ's, 3 Tec Edge's, and 3 Mutavault. Being able to attack from multiple angles is what makes this deck competitive, and I think the mana base illustrates that very well. Semi interactive - 2 Horizon Canopies.
B) No fetch lands,no shocks - Having a mana base that deals next to no damage to us is nearly a forgotten concept in modern. Actually starting the game at 20 life and keeping it, forces other aggro decks into an immediate disadvantage.
C) No Mana fixing - We're a mono colored deck that literally doesn't need to see a white source to win the game thanks to aether vial. What other deck can say that?
I think Mono White has a ton of advantages in it's mana base, while still maintaining an amazing consistency.
- Yah Diminishing Returns is a real thing. You've got to milk all the card quality you can
- Yes, Reanimator as in Grishoalbrand, it's not common, but I have ran into 3 times in the last two big tournaments. 3-0'd.
- Crusader is a great card, it's just not a BOMB like Crucible or Kataki is for me. I've also been unlucky that it's the first thing stripped from my hand in a gb/x midrange match up. Which I guess shows how much they fear it. Personally, I don't like to add too many SB slots unless I know it's going to have immediate ground breaking effect.
- Against affinity I -3 Militant, -3 Leonin Arbiter, +3 Kataki, +2 Wrath of God, +1 Burrenton Forge Tender ..sometimes if i'm feeling sassy I'll also -1 another arbiter and bring in crucible. Still unsure about that one. But it's proven like a fair deal, since they only play 2 basics max, strip mining every turn is good.
- Jund/Abzan match up I feel is pretty close. It's definitely the most technical of match ups. Sometimes I blow them away, sometimes it's grindy, sometimes they out value me. It's never consistent. What do you propose is a good side boarding strategy? I used to take out Militants, but lately have been taking out 4 Aether vial to increase threat density. It seems weird, but I think it works.
- Crucible is weird, but having that silver bullet is just the nuts. IMO I think it's worth it.
- I have considered Ethersworn canonist, and even tested Eidolon of Rhetoric. If I had a 16 card sideboard, Eidolon of Rhetoric would be in there forsure.
Thank you again for your input! If you could help me figure out a good sideboard strategy for this weekend I'd be enormously grateful. I definitely think there's room for debate on how to handle Gb/x and even twin. Twin isn't at all a bad matchup, personally I have it tracked at 19-2 in matches, but everytime I sb it's not a consistent interchange (for ex: To auriok champion or not to?)
So I haven't played with my proposed build yet but after thinking about it does seem worse. I do want to try out a new build though and this one seems quite good on paper. I am still a more focused taxing list but I am going all in on Mangara since it is good with the mana denial plan and just acts as extra removal. Adding a few Restoration Angels to help us have more double Mangara activations and it really makes our mid range matchups much better. With that in mind, I added another land. My main consideration before I take this to a local event is whether I want to play the 3rd Resto Angel or play a Dismember in the main instead. Or alternatively, I can cut the 23rd land and the restos and play 4 Serra Avenger/3 Serra Avenger and a Dismember.
Lots of great discussion going on. Since I have been playing D&T (mostly mono-white but a little WG and WU and currently the Wu (microblue splash)), I have a few thoughts to toss into the discussion.
For those who do not Vryn Wingmare for your particular play style, that is fine, but I 100% disagree that it is not good enough for Modern. Going a heavy tax build is very effective. The redundancy of having Thalia and Wingmare is very helpful since Modern has so much removal, and the games when you are able to curve from Thalia to Wingmare will just win games against some decks/draws. Thalia+Wingmare can be as powerful a combo as Arbiter+Ghost Quarter. I was reminded how powerful a 2 mana tax is when I tried to add Gitaxian Probe to my D&T Wu deck. It was great as a turn 1 play to peek at the opponents hand, but became all but worthless later in the game. I could never play it without completely destroying my own tempo (even with an active vial) because of my taxers. That convinced me that Thalia+Wingmare is a great combo, even in Modern. The flying is just the icing on the cake. I have had many games were Thalia can't get in for any damage. Wingmare rarely has that problem.
Now, all that being said about Wingmare, I do not think Wingmare is a core part of D&T like Thalia. You can forgo Wingmare and add some powerful non-creature spells (swords, lingering soul, dromoka's command, collected company, maybe planeswalker, etc.). These are not only viable options, but some are proven with results (like WB lingering taxes). However, if you do not plan to use these powerful non-creature options, then I highly recommend you re-evaluate and re-test Wingmare. I do not think you need to run a playset, but adding 1-3 can make a huge difference over many matches. Even many "creature" heavy decks run a ton of non-creature spells (like affinity). Making mox opals cost 2 and platings cost 4 while at the same time blowing up their land at will (since most run 0-1 basics) can often end games. Not to mention that Wingmare takes care of those annoying signal pests.
My view on swords of X&Y. I love them. I used to run them when I first started playing modern D&T. They are definitely high risk and high reward. That being said, you need to design your deck to maximize the reward and minimize the risk. The first is to not play wingmare (4 mana is sometimes doable, 5 is not). The second is run spellskite (at least 2 maindeck). Spellskite is obviously an awesome Modern hatebear on his own, but really helps prevent the potential tempo loss of getting your equipped creature killed. It also helps that spellskite can pick up the sword and swing if needed since despite being a 0/4 it does not have defender. Finally, play creatures that love to carry swords, ie. flyers (especially serra avenger) and mirran crusader. I would not be too concerned about Kolaghan's command because you should be running spellskite anyway if you are running swords, and spellskite is great at negating Kolaghan's command. As a bonus, try to play some manlands. When I ran swords, I used to run blinkmoth nexus over mutavault. For that late game grind, it is usually easy to spend 1 mana to activate, 2 to equip and swing every turn. It helps minimizing the situation where you have a sword and no creatures.
After writing this, I realize how much I miss using my swords! Might need to brush them off and take them for a spin again!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Modern decks: Death and Taxes, Hatebears, Well Oiled Machine, Merfolk, Nyx Wave, Soul Sisters, Stompy, Matyr Proc, Naya Zoo, Robots (I refuse to call it affinity!), Bogles, Kiki Chord
Jendo87, yes you are overthinking/theorycrafting it. Everything we play dies to removal. They won't one mana removal to take out Thalia around half the time. The other half you completely screw up their tempo by forcing their cantrips to cost more mana. And if they do remove Thalia, then it is even more unlikely they will have another one to take out Wingmare. And if they do, then it is REALLY unlikely they will have yet another removal spell to take out my arbiter/mindcensor when I start attacking their mana base. Plus, I play maindeck spellskite to protect the taxers. Turn 1 vial, turn 2 skite, turn 3 vial in Thalia and cast Wingmare is a back breaking sequence for many Grixis decks. Delve becomes less of an issue when their cantrips cost 3 mana. Plus, postboard there are lots of ways to deal with Tasigur/angler. Pre-board, I can often race as my taxers slow them down.
Also, who says you can't run heavy hitters if you run wingmare? It is not all one or the other. It is about the balance. I run a 3/3 Thalia/Wingmare split. Most people run 4 Thalia, so I really only use 2 extra slots for my taxers, which is not much of an extra commitment, but having 6 taxers instead of 4 means I will see one in ~70% of my games instead of ~50%. Honestly, I win more games from wingmare damage combined with other flyers than any ground beaters like brimaz/splicer/crusader/finks. A wingmare along side a wisp or avenger ends games 2-3 turns quicker.
Wingmare obviously sucks vs flying tokens, but Wingmare has been a key card to improving my matchup vs Tokens due to the tax.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Modern decks: Death and Taxes, Hatebears, Well Oiled Machine, Merfolk, Nyx Wave, Soul Sisters, Stompy, Matyr Proc, Naya Zoo, Robots (I refuse to call it affinity!), Bogles, Kiki Chord
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
What is your opinion on Phyrexian Metamorph in this deck ?
I can see some interesting options opening with this card, but it can also be a dead card with an empty board (which isn't usually the case though...).
I'll be playing the following list this week (had to get a few more foil Mangaras so was only able to put it together this week):
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Vryn Wingmare
4 Flickerwisp
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 AEther Vial
Instants (4)
4 Path to Exile
Lands (22)
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Tectonic Edge
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Temple Garden
4 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2 Sunlance
1 Dismember
2 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Rest in Peace
2 Spellskite
Chalice of the Void is really terrible against elves. Trust me. Their threats comes in Archdruid, collected company or chord of calling. Also, against 4 caverns we don't even stand a chance to counter their elves.
...
You might have to ask a more specific question.
Phyrexian Metamorph is the cheapest Clone variant with staying power. It copies artifacts, but unless your metagame is filled with artifacts, it's usually going to target a creature. Because it's usually targeting a creature, most people that run this effect in D&T choose Phantasmal Image. Image costs less mana, and it effectively copies EtB effects. Once or twice, I've tried Clever Impersonator, because that can also copy Planeswalkers. (It's really funny when you exile a Karn with your own Karn.) But usually, Impersonator is just a more expensive Phantasmal Image.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
Copying an artifact like: Batterskull or a Sword can be rather good.
And obviously copying a "fatty" against Tron (Emrakul, Wurmcoil.E) or Green Ramp (Craterhoof.B, P.Titan) or an Abzan creature (Goyf, S.Rhino) is a good option in addition to copying your own Wisps and Angels.
If your metagame is full of Batterskull and swords, then I can see why it might be useful. That said, outside of Affinity (where most of the threats are creatures anyway), I don't think artifacts make up a relevant portion of the competitive metagame.
If you intend to use Metamorph to copy an Emrakul, Craterhoof Behemoth, or Primeval Titan, you've already lost. The last two win the game on the turn they come into play, and you'll probably have to survive an Annihilator trigger to make the first one happen.
If you're going to copy a creature, Phantasmal Image is just more efficient. If you're going to copy a creature in mono-white, then for 3 and 2 life, Metamorph can help you can do that. I still wouldn't recommend it, but you can give it a shot.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
3 Dryad Militant
1 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Spellskite
2 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
3 Blade Splicer
1 Aven Mindcensor
2 Restoration Angel
1 Eiganjo Castle
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Mutavault
9 Plains
1 Seachrome Coast
3 Tectonic Edge
Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Auriok Champion
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Mirran Crusader
1 Wilt-Leaf Liege
1 Rest in Peace
2 Wrath of God
Hey Guys, I haven't posted or done anything since school's started, but I've got a RPTQ this weekend in Pittsburgh that I'll be bringing D&T to. I've been testing amongst the RIW crew and online. The above list is what I've landed on.
You'll notice the inclusion of swords and ***'s. The swords have been amazing, in anything grindy. For ex gb/x midrange. Wrath of God's a new addition after recognizing the worst match-ups are: Affinity, Elves, and sometimes Merfolk. The idea of W.O.G. in a creature deck is kind of crazy, but in practice it plays out pretty well. No one sees it coming, just put up enough resistance for them to over commit, and it's game. Also, don't play Thalia before a W.O.G.
Anyway, that's my tech. Not too much of a change from SCG Cinci. Cut Seachrome coast, Blade Splicer, And Mindcensor for: 1 Plains, 1 Brimaz, and 1 Sword of F&I.
Cutting Stony from the SB kind of was shocking, but the deck really relies on it's own artifacts too, so I think Kataki is just way better. And testing proved that.
Anyway, hopefully it's enough to qualify for the pro tour!
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
How to Use Spoiler Tags
Starting Over: The Origins of the Mulligan Rule
Practical Approach to Slow Play
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 2: SWARM and TOOLBOX
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 3
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 4
These videos are by MTG Salvation Moderator Lantern!
Introduction to Tempo
Controlling Tempo
Elements of Tempo
Roadblocks to Tempo
How Not To Build A Deck - Tempo
Learn How To Sideboard, Dammit!
Mulligan's Island
The Art of the Mulligan
The Art of the Mulligan: Eight Case Studies
Fundamentals: The Mulligan
Some Mulligan Exercises
A Mulligan Is Worth Three Cards
The Mulligan Debate
Common Sense: The Art of the Mulligan
Who's The Beatdown?
3 Caves of Koilos
3 Eldrazi Temple
2 Fetid Heath
3 Godless Shrine
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Plains
3 Shambling Vent
2 Tectonic Edge
Artifacts (4):
4 Æther Vial
4 Path to Exile
Creatures (29):
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Wasteland Strangler
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Flooded Strand
6 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
Creatures (16):
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stormchaser Mage
2 Gut Shot
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mutagenic Growth
3 Spell Pierce
3 Twisted Image
3 Vapor Snag
Sorceries (8):
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Blood Moon
2 Dispel
1 Forked Bolt
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Repeal
2 Roast
1 Spell Snare
2 Spellskite
1 Vapor Snag
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Copperline Gorge
5 Mountain
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
Creatures (14):
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Atarka's Command
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Searing Blaze
Sorceries (8):
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
2 Deflecting Palm
4 Destructive Revelry
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Path to Exile
2 Rending Volley
3 Skullcrack
19 Forest
3 Treetop Village
Creatures (24):
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Dryad Militant
2 Dungrove Elder
4 Experiment One
4 Leatherback Baloth
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Rancor
Instants (10):
3 Aspect of Hydra
4 Vines of Vastwood
3 Dismember
2 Choke
2 Gut Shot
2 Deglamer
2 Feed the Clan
2 Oxidize
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Skylasher
1 Unravel the Æther
Hey Elliot, great to see your post! Your participating in a RPTQ means you must've won a PPTQ - was it with D&T? In any case, with regards to your list, I quite like it :).
I think your maindeck is almost exactly the same as what I consider to be a "optimal" mono-W D&T list. Aside from the singleton Seachrome Coast, I run 2x Kitchen Finks and 1x Dismember instead of your 1x Kytheon and 2x Swords (though at this point I'm not entirely sure if 2x Finks + 1x Dismember is a great choice). I don't want to keep beating the same dead horse and talk/ask about Kytheon, especially since there seems to be sufficient consensus that he's a great 1-drop (I just have not been able to try/see for myself), but the other 2 are worth some thinking about..
Burn aside, Kitchen Finks shines brightest in the Jund/Abzan/Grixis match-up, where it almost always represents a 2-for-1 (I don't think Burn should be the only reason to run Finks, since D&T is good enough against it, and typically 2-3 sideboard cards are enough). Granted, if you're able to equip one of the Swords and benefit off of it even just one time, that's an equally sizable advantage, if not bigger. An obvious concern is that with the Swords requiring a fair bit of mana to use (especially in the early game), you open yourself up to losing tempo (with them killing your creature in response to the Equip activation) or simply losing a freshly played Sword (to anything from Abrupt Decay, Maelstrom Pulse to the oh-so-ever-present Kolaghan's Command). And if your plan is to use it into the later stages of the game, that makes it a somewhat dead-er card early on than if it were to be some other creature (we can all agree that it's less flexible in this regard). Basically, the swords are obviously great and can have incredible pay-off - it's all about how consistently you can get it to work in your favour. So I guess my question is: how have your extensive experience with them been *really*? (1) ESPECIALLY in match-ups like Jund/Abzan/Grixis, and 2)how does it affect your other matchups?)
Moving on to the sideboard..
Anyways, looking forward to hear your thoughts!
I won a PPTQ with D&T back in August. It had about 60-70 people and a room full of burn. Luckily, then I had two MD finks to help mitigate the damage.
Kytheon has been absolutely amazing. He's actually a taxer in disguise, and helps break up stalled board states through his taunt ability. I absolutely love him, and have considered putting a second in. As for the singleton sea chrome coast, that's just to help on the rare chance of activating spells kite where our life total is valuable. There use to be two coasts, but I had the coming into play tapped ability cost me a game.
For the analysis of the swords. I had played just one, the sword of light and shadow, at the modern SCG Cincinnati and it single handily won about 3 matches. Adding the second, while limiting diminishing returns is HUGE. We have a critical mass of creatures that already are must answer, putting swords into the mix only heightens that, I believe. I think it's an unbelievable alternative angle of attack, connecting just once feels like the games over, and despite in a world of Kolaghan's command it's still worth it. You want to play threats then sword, so you don't lose tempo. The testing shows that swords are tremendously good in the gb/x match up and grixis. How it plays out is they spend a lot of resources removing early taxers and threats, that the board state becomes a little more stalled out, which is perfect for taking advantage of. Other match ups, is a hit and miss, for example against tokens you probably don't want Fire/Ice, but Light/Shadow is the nuts. And elves I would say is vice versa. Against combo, your probably don't want either.
- Yah I absolutely love the Auriok Champions over the Firewalkers. They come in against burn obviously, but also against zoo, and sometimes twin.
- The Relic/ Rip split is just due to diminishing returns. They do similar things, but I don't ever want two rip. Against gb/x midrange I used to find that siding in two Rip's was a bad feeling, as we want to keep our threat density high, so this helps alleviate that imo.
- Grafdigger's is for coco/chord/reanimator, the cage has been awesome, and it helps act as a 3rd rip for reanimator.
- I was running 3 Mirran Crusader for a hot minute, but I didn't feel they had as much of a presence in play as I'd hoped for. I think 2 is a good number, plus my sideboard is on the high variety side. The wild-leaf liege I like specifically for the gb/x midrange decks, is a great body (bolt proof/decay proof) and it helps scare the +1 tick away from Lilly.
- Surprisingly I have not had a Kataki and lost, knock on wood. There have however been PLENTY of times where I had t2 stony silence and lost. For that reason I fell Kataki is VASTLY superior. Especially because we kind of need aether vials for g2 and g3 to help catch up to the affinity explosion.
- I'm sold on the Wrath of Gods too. I doubt I'll side them in much, but it's a good safety button to have.
- I take out swords if Im playing against tron, or if I have the potential to die turn 4 or before. Except burn, I leave Light/Shadow in.
For Sideboard plans I think the answer is to hedge the worst tier 1 matchups like affinity and merfolk, THEN diversify. That's what my plan was when building the sb, and I think that shows the thought process a bit. I think against other tier 1 decks we're pretty good against, especially twin, so extra hate isn't really needed.
Thank you so much for your questions again. Hopefully I hit all your questions, if not just holler back.
Flickerwisp! Fix it! I don't care whatever splash a deck has, there's no excuse to have less than 4 in this deck.
As for Springleaf Drum, how often is it helpful? It seems like it's supposed to be redundancy for vial, but if you have no 1-drop it seems horribly inefficient, as well as a miserable topdeck. I guess it's there to speed up your 4-drops, but at the same time you're probably losing a bit of tempo to do so.
Let us know if the dreaded situation where Magus of the Moon turns on your opponents fetches happens. Probably the biggest complaint I've heard for the Magus, along with also turning off our utility lands as well.
Obviously there's blowout potential, but I usually think of it as a later game card in the first place, where I don't really think I'd be getting any less blown out just drawing and casting a Mirran Crusader that eats the Bolt. I think it forces them even more to have the right card at the right time, while increasing our clock and slowing them down/making things awkward, which is basically what most of our cards do.
Death and Taxes Videos
Traproot Graphics
Modern:
Fateseal Control | Current Version on TappedOut
Modern Death and Taxes | Current Version on TappedOut
Bant Tempo | Current Version on TappedOut
Played Monday Modern Last night and went 4-0 (with improved sb plan): The sideboard back has been updated to attack more of the control and combo decks in the format. Losing to decks because of time and anemic draws is the worst way to get sacked at a larger event. I also went -1 mutavault, +1 tectonic edge in the main deck.
Current Sideboard Plan:
I'd love an additional Sin Collector but may not have a way to make room. Currently the list has had a mega amazing main deck plan and very strong sb plan. But I'm not sure if the plan went wide enough against control/heavy mana advantage decks (tron scapeshift jeskai control etc) There was a remarkable amount of these decks at the last 5k I went to. If you guys have any ideas or insight it would be appreciated!
-Catmix
WWModern Death And Taxes (w/ Militia Bugler) (JUL '19)
GWModern Maverick (JUL '19)
WBCatmix on Twitch!
WWCatmix on Youtube
The Swords
Obviously, and not surprisingly, the inclusion of Swords always becomes a common point of contention between D&T players. While I think everyone agrees that they're high-reward cards, when it comes to them also being high-risk, I don't doubt that different players with different views/opinions on the Swords will inevitably play differently (i.e. play in a way to set up situations where the Swords will have high impact on the game). And this is not to disparage players who don't see consistent success with Swords (I certainly have not, or at least have not tried hard enough), but by virtue of being relatively less flexible than other cards in the deck, I imagine it takes a slightly different skillset to maximize the Swords' potential, meaning perhaps it can work. And to some extent, your RPTQ matches might shed a bit more light on the matter.
I do agree that in many matchups the opponent is almost always forced to answer most of our creatures immediately (Thalia, Arbiter, Mindcensor, Militant (vs Grixis anyway), and Kytheon). In other words, many matches play out like this: I play a creature, he counters/kills it. I play another, same thing, until I play something that does not get answered. Games in which they are unable to answer the first couple of threats are generally already won. So I suppose that playing with this in mind can help maximize a Sword's potential.
We could also look at it another way: if I/you were to not play the Swords, what would take their place? For me, it'd probably be Kitchen Finks (to date, I am not a real fan of Vryn Wingmare in Modern, as they do absolutely nothing to make our worst matchups any better - which is really where the deck needs the most help), since mono-W simply just doesn't have as many high-powered options as other colour combinations. While Kitchen Finks has a serviceable body, and is annoying/difficult to remove, is it a "must-answer" threat? Probably not. As such, it's conceivable that a Sword would give the opponent a more difficult choice to make than a Kitchen Finks, or another creature.
But at the same time, you must admit that running Swords (particularly more than one) increases the probability of bad draws and awkward hands (even if only slightly). The big questions are how much that is, if it's tolerable in a tournament with many rounds, and if the upside is worth those odds. And obviously, it's nigh-impossible to quantitatively get a good assessment of this, so :P.
Now, not to detract the conversation away from your deck (mono-W), but for me, opening up a discussion about the viability of Swords invariably leads to the question of: is it possible that Swords are generally better in a different colour combination version of D&T? White-Green offers Noble Hierach, which could either accelerate playing a Sword or just offer you more flexibility in when/how you use it. There are also some cute Christmas-land-hypotheticals, like having access to Eternal Witness to get a dead Sword back (I wouldn't condone this). White-Black offers ways of taking the opponent's answers away with Tidehollow Sculler. I would imagine that Lingering Souls also makes Swords much more versatile and robust. And a subtle point is that one of W/B's biggest weaknesses is its own manabase, and playing a couple more colourless spells might somewhat alleviate that.
This also leads me to another question, out of curiosity: is there a reason you've stuck with mono-White D&T? Or have you tried other versions and have some reason for playing mono-W over other alternatives?
Other Comments
Anyway, bringing my comments back to your decklist:
Those are my thoughts for the time being. I think a lot of them are just questions that are interesting to think about, and I don't really expect you to change your list going into your upcoming tournament (at least not without substantial testing of your own). But of course, I wish you best of luck, and hope you make it to the Pro Tour :D!
@mightybenno I would argue it's more of a moderate risk-high reward scenario in dealing with the swords. Even if the opponent were to kill the creature after spending two mana to activate, we still have a sword waiting for the next guy we drop. I've found in testing and multiple times, the swords have flipped board states into complete 180's. Even having a creature with a sword on it deters a lot of attacks, let alone a connection gives D&T a fairly large amount of card advantage. Something the deck normally doesn't have options to.
I've messed around with a g/w variant of hierarchs and swords, but wasn't really impressed. Hierarch's + Vial felt like the deck was too threat light.
As for the crucible I feel like it's great against Tron and Bloom, where the swords aren't very profitable. Maybe the crucible is wrong, but I also like diversifying the type of threats I deploy too. Thank you for your feed back!
@skeet70 I agree with everything you said.
@2imu Your analysis of how to play swords is spot on. Play threats your opponent thinks they need to answer, then drop the one they weren't ready for! If I were to drop the swords I'd probably cut the Brimaz too, and add a dismember, a blade splicer, and an aven mind censor. Just probably more back to the more traditional build. Which..sounds boring.
I don't believe having a swords in the opening hand is necessarily a bad thing, maybe having two would be bad, but having one.. I'd be happy with. I would argue in a highly creature dense deck like ours, having something to elevate their individual threat level is highly valuable. So to answer your question, there's a lot of upside with a moderate amount of risk.
Straying away from mono-white is a valid question, especially pertaining to the merits of swords in a Hierarch-Taxes deck. Like I said above though, in theory it seems that'd work, but in practice decreasing the decks threat density in favor of mana dorks leaves us open to the opponent having the luxury of selecting their removal more precisely. Also, hierarchs leave us more open to pyroclasm, Firespout, etc. I'd recommend testing it though, maybe I messed up the gw variant, but it seemed to have some holes. Although T2 Arbiter + GQ is sexy. WB plays very differently, arguably it has more power, but not at expense of the manabase.
Actually,I had started out with the GW Taxes variant, w/ coco's before moving to Mono white. I was really impressed with gw coco taxes, but i didn't like how it sacrificed it's air game(Serra, flicker wisp, Resto), and how much it relied on the t1 mana dork (mine was aethervial-less). I messed with UW taxes for a hot minute, utilizing Spreading Seas and really enjoyed that build. I still think UW could have merit, but in the end I think Mono White D&T is the most superior option for the following reasons:
A) 10 Superbly Interactive Non basic lands. My version plays 4 GQ's, 3 Tec Edge's, and 3 Mutavault. Being able to attack from multiple angles is what makes this deck competitive, and I think the mana base illustrates that very well. Semi interactive - 2 Horizon Canopies.
B) No fetch lands,no shocks - Having a mana base that deals next to no damage to us is nearly a forgotten concept in modern. Actually starting the game at 20 life and keeping it, forces other aggro decks into an immediate disadvantage.
C) No Mana fixing - We're a mono colored deck that literally doesn't need to see a white source to win the game thanks to aether vial. What other deck can say that?
I think Mono White has a ton of advantages in it's mana base, while still maintaining an amazing consistency.
- Yah Diminishing Returns is a real thing. You've got to milk all the card quality you can
- Yes, Reanimator as in Grishoalbrand, it's not common, but I have ran into 3 times in the last two big tournaments. 3-0'd.
- Crusader is a great card, it's just not a BOMB like Crucible or Kataki is for me. I've also been unlucky that it's the first thing stripped from my hand in a gb/x midrange match up. Which I guess shows how much they fear it. Personally, I don't like to add too many SB slots unless I know it's going to have immediate ground breaking effect.
- Against affinity I -3 Militant, -3 Leonin Arbiter, +3 Kataki, +2 Wrath of God, +1 Burrenton Forge Tender ..sometimes if i'm feeling sassy I'll also -1 another arbiter and bring in crucible. Still unsure about that one. But it's proven like a fair deal, since they only play 2 basics max, strip mining every turn is good.
- Jund/Abzan match up I feel is pretty close. It's definitely the most technical of match ups. Sometimes I blow them away, sometimes it's grindy, sometimes they out value me. It's never consistent. What do you propose is a good side boarding strategy? I used to take out Militants, but lately have been taking out 4 Aether vial to increase threat density. It seems weird, but I think it works.
- Crucible is weird, but having that silver bullet is just the nuts. IMO I think it's worth it.
- I have considered Ethersworn canonist, and even tested Eidolon of Rhetoric. If I had a 16 card sideboard, Eidolon of Rhetoric would be in there forsure.
Thank you again for your input! If you could help me figure out a good sideboard strategy for this weekend I'd be enormously grateful. I definitely think there's room for debate on how to handle Gb/x and even twin. Twin isn't at all a bad matchup, personally I have it tracked at 19-2 in matches, but everytime I sb it's not a consistent interchange (for ex: To auriok champion or not to?)
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Vryn Wingmare
4 Mangara of Corondor
4 Flickerwisp
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Restoration Angel
4 AEther Vial
Instant (4)
4 Path to Exile
Land (23)
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Tectonic Edge
4 Temple Garden
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Horizon Canopy
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Dismember
2 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Rest in Peace
2 Spellskite
2 Sunlance
For those who do not Vryn Wingmare for your particular play style, that is fine, but I 100% disagree that it is not good enough for Modern. Going a heavy tax build is very effective. The redundancy of having Thalia and Wingmare is very helpful since Modern has so much removal, and the games when you are able to curve from Thalia to Wingmare will just win games against some decks/draws. Thalia+Wingmare can be as powerful a combo as Arbiter+Ghost Quarter. I was reminded how powerful a 2 mana tax is when I tried to add Gitaxian Probe to my D&T Wu deck. It was great as a turn 1 play to peek at the opponents hand, but became all but worthless later in the game. I could never play it without completely destroying my own tempo (even with an active vial) because of my taxers. That convinced me that Thalia+Wingmare is a great combo, even in Modern. The flying is just the icing on the cake. I have had many games were Thalia can't get in for any damage. Wingmare rarely has that problem.
Now, all that being said about Wingmare, I do not think Wingmare is a core part of D&T like Thalia. You can forgo Wingmare and add some powerful non-creature spells (swords, lingering soul, dromoka's command, collected company, maybe planeswalker, etc.). These are not only viable options, but some are proven with results (like WB lingering taxes). However, if you do not plan to use these powerful non-creature options, then I highly recommend you re-evaluate and re-test Wingmare. I do not think you need to run a playset, but adding 1-3 can make a huge difference over many matches. Even many "creature" heavy decks run a ton of non-creature spells (like affinity). Making mox opals cost 2 and platings cost 4 while at the same time blowing up their land at will (since most run 0-1 basics) can often end games. Not to mention that Wingmare takes care of those annoying signal pests.
My view on swords of X&Y. I love them. I used to run them when I first started playing modern D&T. They are definitely high risk and high reward. That being said, you need to design your deck to maximize the reward and minimize the risk. The first is to not play wingmare (4 mana is sometimes doable, 5 is not). The second is run spellskite (at least 2 maindeck). Spellskite is obviously an awesome Modern hatebear on his own, but really helps prevent the potential tempo loss of getting your equipped creature killed. It also helps that spellskite can pick up the sword and swing if needed since despite being a 0/4 it does not have defender. Finally, play creatures that love to carry swords, ie. flyers (especially serra avenger) and mirran crusader. I would not be too concerned about Kolaghan's command because you should be running spellskite anyway if you are running swords, and spellskite is great at negating Kolaghan's command. As a bonus, try to play some manlands. When I ran swords, I used to run blinkmoth nexus over mutavault. For that late game grind, it is usually easy to spend 1 mana to activate, 2 to equip and swing every turn. It helps minimizing the situation where you have a sword and no creatures.
After writing this, I realize how much I miss using my swords! Might need to brush them off and take them for a spin again!
Also, who says you can't run heavy hitters if you run wingmare? It is not all one or the other. It is about the balance. I run a 3/3 Thalia/Wingmare split. Most people run 4 Thalia, so I really only use 2 extra slots for my taxers, which is not much of an extra commitment, but having 6 taxers instead of 4 means I will see one in ~70% of my games instead of ~50%. Honestly, I win more games from wingmare damage combined with other flyers than any ground beaters like brimaz/splicer/crusader/finks. A wingmare along side a wisp or avenger ends games 2-3 turns quicker.
Wingmare obviously sucks vs flying tokens, but Wingmare has been a key card to improving my matchup vs Tokens due to the tax.