Hi, I've been actively reading this forum since about page 145, right around when Kytheon was spoiled. I remember because "Now this is an interesting one drop" was the page that loaded first in my web browser for a long time. It's been awesome to see the deck develop get some big wins/top 8s. I was going to wait to post until I had been around for 100 pages of updates, but I decided to post today because I just went 5-0 in the modern leagues! I was using a mono-W list that I'm really happy with.
I agree with other people saying D&T is a strong deck for that meta. My last 2 matches were living end and storm, and RiP took home both game 3s (and Thalia of course was huge in both). Matches were:
1 - Faith's Reward/Eggs
2 - RUG Control
3 - BW Tokens
4 - Living End
5 - Storm
The Living End and Storm matches followed the same pattern: G1 loss, G2 manage to win without RiP, G3 win with RiP. G3 Living End was notable for having both RiP and Worship in play, rebuilding after 3 Living End board wipes and finally winning on turn 21.
The BW tokens match I was the most proud of, since it seems like a relatively tough matchup. Went 2-1, Thalia did a ton of work here as well. G1 just used the main taxers Thalia and Arbiter to keep my opponent without enough mana for token spells. Lost G2, won G3 with some fairly aggressive beats - maybe have been too aggressive actually, but it wound up working out.
RUG control have to admit it felt good winning against a bunch of Goyfs and Snaps. Was the only match I went 2-0.
Eggs/Faith's Reward - RiP was the G3 MVP again! (just remembered as I checked the replay)
So of course RiP was a huge player in these games. Like some people here I've sometimes wondered about RiP, but these games really highlighted how good it is. It either completely shuts down or is quite bad for almost every deck in the format. And in my build the only loss is the persist on 2 Kitchen Finks (only 2 in the 75).
Also, Kytheon has been excellent overall, in these league matches and in general. It works really well with Mutavault for a quick flip, and keeping your main taxer indestructible for a turn feels great.
One non-competitive thing I want to mention since this is my first post here - the flavor of D&T is awesome! It's one of the things that drew me to the deck. I love that it's kind of non-tribal tribal. Not everything is the same creature type, but you can kind of imagine all these different people/things fighting together for a common cause. I mean, what's better than a human soldier teaming up with a cat cleric and a bird wizard?!
I also recently played my first irl Magic in a long time with a similar list at my LGS and went 3-1. I beat Bogles, Elves and Affinity and lost a close one to Junk. The Elves match was intense, wound up winning on a well-timed Path to an Elvish Archdruid while he was attacking. Made all my blocks really bad for him and he didn't really recover from there. Still a very close and intense last match of the night.
Thanks to everyone who posts here - I've learned a ton from you all about this awesome deck, and it helped me identify D&T as the deck I wanted to play in the first place. Looking forward to being more involved in the forum!
I've been keeping the Wilt-Leafs in the sideboard mainly hoping to get a win from a K-Command discard, but I think it's happened about 1 time so far. Against Lili they usually see it with a Thoughtseize or Inquisition first and know not to +1. Any SB suggestions if I take out the Leafs? Any general suggestions?
2 Resto Angels are back in after being out for a while. I'm glad to have her back, and having 9 3-power fliers in the deck has been great.
Does anyone have any strong feelings for or against Kytheon?
He's an amazing card for sure. The real questions are if he belongs in the deck and how many copies should be ran. A few of us have moved away from one drops but he seems to be top tier if one is required for curve purpose. Flipping him is relatively hard to do in the current format (profitably). I am testing him but can't swear by him just yet.
Especially with more Vryn WingmarePath to Exile appears less and less valuable. I would like to run the card but since I want the deck to be Leap centered Fiend Hunter seems much more appealing.
Path to Exile is one of the two most efficient pieces of removal available in Modern. It is significantly better in this deck than in most other decks, because we run Arbiter and Aven Mindcensor.
I understand why Evolutionary Leap is a tempting card to play, but I don't think that it's right for this deck. It's a nonbo with Thalia and Wingmare, and it's terrible in multiples. If you want to try it, I suggest making it a singleton (or maybe a 2-of), but you shouldn't rely on seeing it in order to win you the game.
What is your opinion on Leonin Arbiter? How many Games does he win for you? I don't really like him yet. You had no Aven Mindcensors... can I cut them if i play a full playset of Arbiters?
Arbiter is nuts against opponents with pushed manabases. It even enables a T2 land destruction play: T1 land, Hierarch, T2 Arbiter, Ghost Quarter, crack the Ghost Quarter targeting your opponent's only land in play. (Then with the Exalted trigger, you swing for 3 with Arbiter on T3, while your opponent is on one land.)
People run Mindcensor in addition to Arbiter if they want redundant land taxes. The green splash can run an Arbiter/Mindcensor split, because Hierarch allows Mindcensor to come down on T2, and occasionally trap an opponent's T2 fetchland.
Still I don't know what your thoughts on Evolutionary Leap are but thank you so far!
Edit: By the way I like also the interaction between a flashed in Flickerwisp and Fiend Hunter with the trigger on the stack.
I wouldn't bother running Emeria, the Sky Ruin. If you ever hit 7 plains with this deck, you: (1) are running monoW and are really unlucky, (2) have bumped into the Lantern Control matchup, or (3) are playing the deck wrong. You only have 12 plains in your entire deck... how do you plan on finding 7 of them? This slot should be taken by betterutilitylands.
I'm not really a fan of Fiend Hunter. It's good in some matchups, but in other matchups it just slows down your clock. And without a Flickerwisp in hand or an active Vial on 3, it fails the Bolt test really badly.
3 Spellskites are probably too many, because you don't really want to see them in multiples. 2 Spellskites is pretty standard, and if you need a 3rd one, it should probably go in the board.
Phyrexian Metamorph is a really fun card, and it's one that I've thought about including in my builds. The problem is that it doesn't help you recover from mass removal, and in the 4-drop slot, there are betteroptions for this deck.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
One non-competitive thing I want to mention since this is my first post here - the flavor of D&T is awesome! It's one of the things that drew me to the deck. I love that it's kind of non-tribal tribal. Not everything is the same creature type, but you can kind of imagine all these different people/things fighting together for a common cause. I mean, what's better than a human soldier teaming up with a cat cleric and a bird wizard?!
Thanks to everyone who posts here - I've learned a ton from you all about this awesome deck, and it helped me identify D&T as the deck I wanted to play in the first place. Looking forward to being more involved in the forum!
I've been keeping the Wilt-Leafs in the sideboard mainly hoping to get a win from a K-Command discard, but I think it's happened about 1 time so far. Against Lili they usually see it with a Thoughtseize or Inquisition first and know not to +1. Any SB suggestions if I take out the Leafs? Any general suggestions?
Welcome to the DnT Thread, it's awesome to see you're having a blast with this deck, your experience somewhat mirrors mine when I started out with this deck! I have to say I definitely feel the same way you do about the flavor of the deck, it's a bunch of mishmashed cards, but somehow it really works! I think that's the beauty of white weenie decks.
As for your list it seems good. I'd personally go up on the Tec Edges and add some Wingmares, but that's a play style preference that differs from player to player (a constant theme in this thread is Disruption vs. Pressure). It seems you hit all the pressing sideboard slots with RiP and Stony, I'd say whatever you think will help you best in your specific meta.
Does anyone have any strong feelings for or against Kytheon?
He's an amazing card for sure. The real questions are if he belongs in the deck and how many copies should be ran. A few of us have moved away from one drops but he seems to be top tier if one is required for curve purpose. Flipping him is relatively hard to do in the current format (profitably). I am testing him but can't swear by him just yet.
Maybe it's because I just run more 2-drops with Confidant and Sculler, but I find that Kytheon flips pretty often. He's definitely been the reason I've won a few games, which is more than any other one drop can claim (other than Hierarch). Or he eats an early bolt, which is always good for us. I don't know if his slot is served by another beater, but he keeps the curve low for Confidant and I've not been disappointed with him so far.
While we're on the topic of one drops, I really kind of want to test Thrull Parasite at some point. I know he's jank (like everything I ever suggest), but he does have an undeniable utility. He allows us to on demand adjust vial counters, and extort can sometimes be just enough to tilt the game, or at least make up for Dark Confidant damage. Too bad there aren't more cards that abuse counters in this format (or planeswalkers that minus loyalty off the bat).
You may still want to have Windswepth Heath in the deck. Against most decks, it's Temple Garden 5-8 (realistically, it's probably more like Temple Garden 3-6 or 4-7). Against decks running Blood Moon, it's the reason you won't lose.
Windswepth Heath isn't much of a problem with the land taxers either, because you get two full land drops before Arbiter becomes an issue, and Mindcensor only hits our opponents. You'll just sequence your land drops to be able to accommodate the Heaths.
Don't worry, we all were. I don't mean to come across as snarky. I have a decent amount of experience with the deck, but so does everybody else on this thread, and there's definitely more than one way to build D&T.
3 Spellskite ensure that all the lower toughness creatures survive and make Fiend Hunter more viable.
Most lists don't run Fiend Hunter. There are two reasons for that: (1) Modern is really removal heavy, and Fiend Hunter dies to almost everything, and (2) Fiend Hunter only has 1 power.
The former means that if you can't protect the Fiend Hunter, you're about to blow out your own tempo. If someone Bolts the Hunter, then you've traded 1 card for 1 card, but you've lost 3 mana to your opponent's 1 mana.
The latter means that regardless of what you remove, your opponent has time to dig for answers. It's really apparent against combo decks, where you're much better off running Splicer, because that's 4 power for the same 3 mana.
Even though it's probably obvious to say, Fiend Hunter is only good when your opponent can't remove it. In Modern, that's a rarity.
I have 3 Evolutionary Leap for the sole purpose of drawing it early enough to 1. dodge the own taxing and 2. be able to get ahead in ressources with it. I think it as a combat trick with card draw upside which can filter through the different tax creatures until we find the right ones for the situation. That I think is worth the casting cost we might pay for it.
Conceptually, there isn't anything wrong with Evolutionary Leap. It can wall our opponents when they only have one aggressive creature, and it turns useless creatures into better creatures at EOT.
The problem is that it's probably not a 2-drop, unless you led with a T1 Vial. Normally, we want to get out in front of our opponent s by dropping a T2 Arbiter or Thalia. This really maximizes the pressure that we can put on our opponents. It's also common to see Spellskite as the 2-drop, especially if you can tell your opponent is running a deck with a lot of removal.
In general, Evolutionary Leap is probably something that you'll end up playing on T4, which means that it shouldn't occupy 3 slots in your list. If you want to try playing Evolutionary Leap on T2, go for it. I'm just a little skeptical, because I expect you to get blown out by some of the faster decks in the format, like Affinity, Zoo, and Burn.
I think that Evolutionary Leap is best as a singleton. It's probably good when you find it, but you'll never hit a second one, and you can play it whenever you have some free mana.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
I know it causes shivers relating this deck to its Legacy version, but would it be terrible to incorporate Ensnaring Bridge in a deck not utilizing Wingmare+Thalia? Our creatures sit at 2-3 power as is and my hand is empty/low more often than not ha-ha. I always enjoy seeing a Bridge while Mirran is doing work.
I just popped in to read all the comments and see where some ideas for this deck are at. But I've quickly noticed that this thread needs a moderator badly! It seems a lot of people are not really reading the first page's before coming in here and weighing down with questions that have previously been answered.
Can we update the primer a bit. A commonly asked questions and answer section possibly to keep discussions relevant?
Anyways, I'm going to chime in on Kytheon, hero of akros/Gideon, Battle-Forged.
Kytheon is not a good card as Kytheon, we can agree on that. A 2/1 with 2W: Gain indestructible is not good, especially in a deck that taxes itself on mana with cards like Ghost Quarter,Horizon canopy, and Tectonic edge.
The idea is that we will one day flip him into Gideon. I'm proposing that Gideon, Battle-forged is not a card we want to run in this deck.
His first ability requires the opponent to have a creature, which we cant always rely on. And if our opponent does have a creature, why do we care about it attacking Gideon over us? We should be the aggressive deck in whatever match we are in; being concerned about something attacking our faces is not a concern you want to have with D&T.
His second ability makes one of our creatures indestructible, until our next turn. Well instant removal is a thing so this is not terribly relevant, also Path to exile. And before I get too much into this argument; why do we care if our creatures are getting pinged off one at-a-time? That's just a thing that is going to happen, not all of our critters are going to survive... The thing we care about is board wipes, not spot removal.
His third ability makes him just a beater and if you refer to the original primer post that is something we do not want in this deck.
All of these mediocre abilities Gidon, Battle-forged brings to the table are only even a possibility if we manage to trigger Kytheon's prerequisites. Having three creatures is not easy sometimes, let alone having three creatures that can attack or that we want to have attacking - also Kytheon has to survive...
I just popped in to read all the comments and see where some ideas for this deck are at. But I've quickly noticed that this thread needs a moderator badly! It seems a lot of people are not really reading the first page's before coming in here and weighing down with questions that have previously been answered.
For the most part, this thread is moderated by the regular posters. There are a handful of us, and this has always been a pretty liberal thread in the "developing competitive" section. The large number of flex slots (~15) in Modern D&T leaves a lot of room for discussion about new tech.
That said, if you're unhappy about something, please PM me, and I'll see what I can do.
Can we update the primer a bit. A commonly asked questions and answer section possibly to keep discussions relevant?
The primer was actually recently updated! And a big thanks to Sheepz for doing so!
A "commonly asked questions and answer section" would keep poor Sheepz writing for days. Not only are there a bunch of "commonly asked questions" but there's rarely consensus on the thread about the answers. Plus, the answers change over time with changes in the meta, so the information that you're looking for would be outdated quickly.
WG D&T shares about 40-50% of its nonland list with GW Hatebears. They have some similarities, but they play very differently. GW Hatebears is a beatdown deck. D&T is more controlling.
Anyways, I'm going to chime in on Kytheon, hero of akros/Gideon, Battle-Forged.
Kytheon is not a good card as Kytheon, we can agree on that. A 2/1 with 2W: Gain indestructible is not good, especially in a deck that taxes itself on mana with cards like Ghost Quarter,Horizon canopy, and Tectonic edge.
The idea is that we will one day flip him into Gideon. I'm proposing that Gideon, Battle-forged is not a card we want to run in this deck.
Kytheon is actually pretty good for our deck. The reason it's good, is because when it flips, regardless of the matchup, it almost always has relevant game modes.
His first ability requires the opponent to have a creature, which we cant always rely on. And if our opponent does have a creature, why do we care about it attacking Gideon over us? We should be the aggressive deck in whatever match we are in; being concerned about something attacking our faces is not a concern you want to have with D&T.
His second ability makes one of our creatures indestructible, until our next turn. Well instant removal is a thing so this is not terribly relevant, also Path to exile. And before I get too much into this argument; why do we care if our creatures are getting pinged off one at-a-time? That's just a thing that is going to happen, not all of our critters are going to survive... The thing we care about is board wipes, not spot removal.
As soon as Kytheon flips, you almost always use the +1 ability to pull it outside of Bolt range. The +1 ability gives you an indestructible blocker (assuming that you didn't swing with everything), which is useful when your opponent is applying pressure. To your point, this will also help one of our creatures survive mass removal.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
I'm aware that Bridge is a two-way street. My concern is my taxes can't match up to a goyf, tas, angler, etc. That being said, my air units, none higher attack power than 3, could chip away while my hand hovered around the 2-3 card range. Just a thought.
What CharonsObol said but to reinforce some points.
1. There is no standard DnT list, even down to the Monowhite versions. DnT is a very flexible deck that maintains an essential core, but aside from that core can be customized to personal playstyle and still work very well. Second of all there are slots where there are cards that are considered still up to debate, like whether or not to play 1 drops, or 4 drops. These questions can be meta dependent and I frankly think are good to have as the competitive meta changes frequently enough to warrant constant discussion.
2. Going off that point, as this is W(x) thread, all splashes are discussed here, and frankly all splashes are viable, even the ones that have not been tested extensively (WU/WR), as they all rely on the same core.
3. On Gideon, I think this really just comes down to playing him just too see how good he is. I'm not sure if you have but here's my experience.
a.) A 1 drop 2/1 for W with his ability is pretty good. Just ignoring his flip side he's an aggressive card that can stonewall a Tasigur/Goyf while we beat in the air. This situation happens to me a lot. Because of this he is a fine topdeck later in the game, which is better than most 1 drop creatures in this format can claim.
b) His +2 is a great ability. Lots of times board states get stalled with neither side swinging in until they can get an advantage. His +2 effectively prevents this from happening and forces their singular creatures to swing in and get devoured by our first strikers. This is especially relevant towards small combo creatures. His +2 is repeated removal essentially. I've used it to kill anything from Deciever Exarch, to Tarmogoyf to Merfolk Lords to what have you. Bonus points if you force them to swing into an open Vault of the Archangel.
c) His +1 is great at keeping my Tidehollow Sculler/Dark Confidant alive I'll tell you that much. It also allows you again to stonewall a single larger beater while your small ones plink at them. Also very cool if you get it going with Brimaz/Serra Avenger. That and being able to make him and creature survive board wipes is crazy good. Assuming you had three creatures on the field, including Kytheon, and you get him flipped, then immediately +1, any board wipes that come will effectively only kill 1 creature, while your free to swing with Gideon/the remaining creature without fear. If one of your creatures was Mutavault they can't actually board wipe you.
d) His +0 makes him a 4/4 beater. Investing 1 mana into a 4/4 beater is a better return rate than Goyf. Given the utility of his first two abilities, I don't know you can call him "just a beater". Nothing gives Grixis control more fits than Gideon swinging in.
e) I've only had two scenarios occur when I've played with Kytheon. Either he gets removed, or he flips. That is a great investment to make for 1 mana, and leaves less removal for your core deck slots to do their thing.
I guess the nature of the W(x)-D&T makes this thread a complete chaos fest, maybe there is a W-D&T thread out there that someone knows about where I can go for more organized discussion? You also made some good points about Kytheon, I'll have to put more thought in to it.
I think a lot of the things we might talk about wont make sense to each other. We are playing the deck completely differently. Like I don't have to worry about stalled board states, the games don't last that long. I also will never have enough mana to activate a Vault, I'll be sac'ing and using my mana to attack theirs long before Vault can get activated. You are also running black? This is what I mean we are not even on the same plane of discussion regarding card choices. I think this is what I mean about this thread having no structure.
Regarding some points about Kytheon, yes some good points made again, like I said to CharonsObol; I'll have to think about it more.
I guess the nature of the W(x)-D&T makes this thread a complete chaos fest, maybe there is a W-D&T thread out there that someone knows about where I can go for more organized discussion? You also made some good points about Kytheon, I'll have to put more thought in to it.
I haven't found another place for Modern DnT other than this thread. As for the discussions on this thread it's pretty cyclical really, usually a winning list gets posted and we dissect it to bits before talking about the pros and cons of the different playstyles (disruption vs. pressure), different cards for taxing/beater slots, and the splashes (and micro-splashes).
Generally as a rule I think all of the frequent posters here have played mono-white pretty extensively and can offer feedback on it. You should post a list, your meta, and most importantly your playstyle. Like I said previously, even in the mono-white version there is a lot of room for debate as to what is the best in slot, and it really comes down to preference.
For example, you quoted Sheepz's saying on how we don't run creatures that are "just beaters", Sheepz (the primer writer) generally sites Serra Avenger as the archetypical example of this. Yet here we have a Top 8 GP Deck List that maindecked 3 of them, and the pilot who later (on this thread), said they were very important to his victories. On the flipside there have been decks without them that have gone heavier on the tax plan that do just as well. This pretty much shows that there is no best way to play this deck. That's actually why I, and others on this thread, love it so much.
If you have just a question, a statement, or a report it's easy to get feedback on this thread, and I believe we are all really passionate about the deck more so than other deck threads, at least in my opinion.
I have a super serious question for everyone. Which art/version basic plains do you run in your deck???
I have narrowed my choice down to a final three, which do you guys think I should choose?
(The latter for when I feel I need a swamp in my 60.)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“Modern has provided us a non-rotating format that is far more accessible than Legacy or Vintage, but still retains many of the qualities that people enjoy in those formats—such as a more stable metagame, the ability to play and tweak the same deck week after week, and simply a much more powerful card pool than Standard.”
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
So I have 8 card slots that I am trying to get ideas for.
Kitchen Finks: I really am not afraid of burn matchup and am considering shipping this off to sideboard. Blade Splicer:Just a beatern except vs affinity, but again want to ship off to sideboard Mangara of corondor:Don't know how often he will land Archangel of tithes:I don't understand why this card is good. Dismember:With 4x thalia and 4x wingmare, I don't want to have to run it, but I think I am forced to.
I guess the nature of the W(x)-D&T makes this thread a complete chaos fest, maybe there is a W-D&T thread out there that someone knows about where I can go for more organized discussion? You also made some good points about Kytheon, I'll have to put more thought in to it.
...
I think a lot of the things we might talk about wont make sense to each other. We are playing the deck completely differently. Like I don't have to worry about stalled board states, the games don't last that long. I also will never have enough mana to activate a Vault, I'll be sac'ing and using my mana to attack theirs long before Vault can get activated. You are also running black? This is what I mean we are not even on the same plane of discussion regarding card choices. I think this is what I mean about this thread having no structure.
So I have 8 card slots that I am trying to get ideas for.
Kitchen Finks: I really am not afraid of burn matchup and am considering shipping this off to sideboard. Blade Splicer:Just a beatern except vs affinity, but again want to ship off to sideboard Mangara of corondor:Don't know how often he will land Archangel of tithes:I don't understand why this card is good. Dismember:With 4x thalia and 4x wingmare, I don't want to have to run it, but I think I am forced to.
Just to reinforce what PasstheChips said; you're definitely in the right place. Lots of people run mono-W D&T, and we all have a lot of experience with the core. Looking at your list, it's pretty stock, and almost everyone will be capable of helping you.
First things first, we're going to make your list into a decklist:
Next, a few comments on your list:
1) Always run 4 Flickerwisp. Always. You'll thank me later.
2) 3 Mindcensor is probably too many. The conventional wisdom says 0-2 are the right number, depending on your meta. I personally run 2. The green splash occasionally runs 3, but when it does, it plays 3 Arbiter instead of 4.
3) 4 Wingmare is too many. The typical number is 0-3, depending on your meta. I frequently run 3, and am not disappointed. A lot of people think that Wingmare isn't aggressive enough, and they don't run it at all. I think it's most common to see Wingmare at 1 or 2 copies.
4) 21 lands is possible (and occasionally successful), but most of the people in this thread run 23. Just be aware that you're dipping into dangerous territory with your manabase.
Last, responses to your comments:
Kitchen Finks: Obviously very good against burn, but it also does work in matchups that use 1-for-1 removal, like Grixis control. It typically shares a slot in this deck with Mirran Crusader and (occasionally) Blade Splicer. They're all good in different ways.
Blade Splicer: This is more than just a beater. It's a beater, but a particularly nasty one in this deck. Because of Flickerwisp and Restoration Angel, it often puts a bunch of extra power on the board. And if you're running Mutavaults, Blade Splicer enables some really unfair plays.
Mangara of Corondor: This card is much better in Legacy than it is in Modern. In Modern, it's a lightning rod, and almost never sticks. Plus, it typically costs you tempo, because your opponent will kill it with something that costs less than 3 mana. It's not a popular choice in this deck. When it sees play, it's a 1-of, and it takes opponents by surprise.
Archangel of Tithes: This card is good because our opponents aren't always able to attack through it. Decks that swarm (BW Tokens, Merfolk, etc.) need to pay a lot of mana in order to swing out. This card shines in a lot of matchups that we tend to lose (like Merfolk).
Dismember: If you run this, it should only be a 1-of. It costs you too much life otherwise.
@Chalupacabra: I also run Innistrad basics. That plane had such a good vibe for this deck.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
I agree with other people saying D&T is a strong deck for that meta. My last 2 matches were living end and storm, and RiP took home both game 3s (and Thalia of course was huge in both). Matches were:
1 - Faith's Reward/Eggs
2 - RUG Control
3 - BW Tokens
4 - Living End
5 - Storm
The Living End and Storm matches followed the same pattern: G1 loss, G2 manage to win without RiP, G3 win with RiP. G3 Living End was notable for having both RiP and Worship in play, rebuilding after 3 Living End board wipes and finally winning on turn 21.
The BW tokens match I was the most proud of, since it seems like a relatively tough matchup. Went 2-1, Thalia did a ton of work here as well. G1 just used the main taxers Thalia and Arbiter to keep my opponent without enough mana for token spells. Lost G2, won G3 with some fairly aggressive beats - maybe have been too aggressive actually, but it wound up working out.
RUG control have to admit it felt good winning against a bunch of Goyfs and Snaps. Was the only match I went 2-0.
Eggs/Faith's Reward - RiP was the G3 MVP again! (just remembered as I checked the replay)
So of course RiP was a huge player in these games. Like some people here I've sometimes wondered about RiP, but these games really highlighted how good it is. It either completely shuts down or is quite bad for almost every deck in the format. And in my build the only loss is the persist on 2 Kitchen Finks (only 2 in the 75).
Also, Kytheon has been excellent overall, in these league matches and in general. It works really well with Mutavault for a quick flip, and keeping your main taxer indestructible for a turn feels great.
One non-competitive thing I want to mention since this is my first post here - the flavor of D&T is awesome! It's one of the things that drew me to the deck. I love that it's kind of non-tribal tribal. Not everything is the same creature type, but you can kind of imagine all these different people/things fighting together for a common cause. I mean, what's better than a human soldier teaming up with a cat cleric and a bird wizard?!
I also recently played my first irl Magic in a long time with a similar list at my LGS and went 3-1. I beat Bogles, Elves and Affinity and lost a close one to Junk. The Elves match was intense, wound up winning on a well-timed Path to an Elvish Archdruid while he was attacking. Made all my blocks really bad for him and he didn't really recover from there. Still a very close and intense last match of the night.
Thanks to everyone who posts here - I've learned a ton from you all about this awesome deck, and it helped me identify D&T as the deck I wanted to play in the first place. Looking forward to being more involved in the forum!
Here is the decklist I'm currently using:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/mono-w-death-and-taxes-1/
I've been keeping the Wilt-Leafs in the sideboard mainly hoping to get a win from a K-Command discard, but I think it's happened about 1 time so far. Against Lili they usually see it with a Thoughtseize or Inquisition first and know not to +1. Any SB suggestions if I take out the Leafs? Any general suggestions?
2 Resto Angels are back in after being out for a while. I'm glad to have her back, and having 9 3-power fliers in the deck has been great.
Modern
TasitwinURB
UWRb ControlUWRB
Death and TaxesWW
Legacy
Death and TaxesWW
He's an amazing card for sure. The real questions are if he belongs in the deck and how many copies should be ran. A few of us have moved away from one drops but he seems to be top tier if one is required for curve purpose. Flipping him is relatively hard to do in the current format (profitably). I am testing him but can't swear by him just yet.
WWModern Death And Taxes (w/ Militia Bugler) (JUL '19)
GWModern Maverick (JUL '19)
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WWCatmix on Youtube
I understand why Evolutionary Leap is a tempting card to play, but I don't think that it's right for this deck. It's a nonbo with Thalia and Wingmare, and it's terrible in multiples. If you want to try it, I suggest making it a singleton (or maybe a 2-of), but you shouldn't rely on seeing it in order to win you the game.
Arbiter is nuts against opponents with pushed manabases. It even enables a T2 land destruction play: T1 land, Hierarch, T2 Arbiter, Ghost Quarter, crack the Ghost Quarter targeting your opponent's only land in play. (Then with the Exalted trigger, you swing for 3 with Arbiter on T3, while your opponent is on one land.)
People run Mindcensor in addition to Arbiter if they want redundant land taxes. The green splash can run an Arbiter/Mindcensor split, because Hierarch allows Mindcensor to come down on T2, and occasionally trap an opponent's T2 fetchland.
I wouldn't bother running Emeria, the Sky Ruin. If you ever hit 7 plains with this deck, you: (1) are running monoW and are really unlucky, (2) have bumped into the Lantern Control matchup, or (3) are playing the deck wrong. You only have 12 plains in your entire deck... how do you plan on finding 7 of them? This slot should be taken by better utility lands.
Canopy Vista is just a worse Razorverge Thicket in this deck.
I'm not really a fan of Fiend Hunter. It's good in some matchups, but in other matchups it just slows down your clock. And without a Flickerwisp in hand or an active Vial on 3, it fails the Bolt test really badly.
3 Spellskites are probably too many, because you don't really want to see them in multiples. 2 Spellskites is pretty standard, and if you need a 3rd one, it should probably go in the board.
Phyrexian Metamorph is a really fun card, and it's one that I've thought about including in my builds. The problem is that it doesn't help you recover from mass removal, and in the 4-drop slot, there are better options for this deck.
There is never going to be consensus in this thread about the one-drops. D&T one-drops are the epitome of metagaming.
I'm very pro-Kytheon, but I can also see reasons to run Dryad Militant, Judge's Familiar, and Icatian Javelineers. And if you're in green, the best one-drop is Noble Hierarch.
I don't have an active list at the moment, but if I did, I would probably be running WG or Bant D&T with 4 Hierarchs and 2 Kytheon.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
Welcome to the DnT Thread, it's awesome to see you're having a blast with this deck, your experience somewhat mirrors mine when I started out with this deck! I have to say I definitely feel the same way you do about the flavor of the deck, it's a bunch of mishmashed cards, but somehow it really works! I think that's the beauty of white weenie decks.
As for your list it seems good. I'd personally go up on the Tec Edges and add some Wingmares, but that's a play style preference that differs from player to player (a constant theme in this thread is Disruption vs. Pressure). It seems you hit all the pressing sideboard slots with RiP and Stony, I'd say whatever you think will help you best in your specific meta.
Maybe it's because I just run more 2-drops with Confidant and Sculler, but I find that Kytheon flips pretty often. He's definitely been the reason I've won a few games, which is more than any other one drop can claim (other than Hierarch). Or he eats an early bolt, which is always good for us. I don't know if his slot is served by another beater, but he keeps the curve low for Confidant and I've not been disappointed with him so far.
While we're on the topic of one drops, I really kind of want to test Thrull Parasite at some point. I know he's jank (like everything I ever suggest), but he does have an undeniable utility. He allows us to on demand adjust vial counters, and extort can sometimes be just enough to tilt the game, or at least make up for Dark Confidant damage. Too bad there aren't more cards that abuse counters in this format (or planeswalkers that minus loyalty off the bat).
UMerfolk
WDeath and Taxes
BRBliztkrieg
GStompy
- - -
"Rock is overpowered. Paper is fine."
-Scissors
Windswepth Heath isn't much of a problem with the land taxers either, because you get two full land drops before Arbiter becomes an issue, and Mindcensor only hits our opponents. You'll just sequence your land drops to be able to accommodate the Heaths.
Don't worry, we all were. I don't mean to come across as snarky. I have a decent amount of experience with the deck, but so does everybody else on this thread, and there's definitely more than one way to build D&T.
I highly recommend the Canopies if you have them or can afford them. The card is $60 for a reason, and it's pretty good in WG D&T.
Most lists don't run Fiend Hunter. There are two reasons for that: (1) Modern is really removal heavy, and Fiend Hunter dies to almost everything, and (2) Fiend Hunter only has 1 power.
The former means that if you can't protect the Fiend Hunter, you're about to blow out your own tempo. If someone Bolts the Hunter, then you've traded 1 card for 1 card, but you've lost 3 mana to your opponent's 1 mana.
The latter means that regardless of what you remove, your opponent has time to dig for answers. It's really apparent against combo decks, where you're much better off running Splicer, because that's 4 power for the same 3 mana.
Even though it's probably obvious to say, Fiend Hunter is only good when your opponent can't remove it. In Modern, that's a rarity.
Conceptually, there isn't anything wrong with Evolutionary Leap. It can wall our opponents when they only have one aggressive creature, and it turns useless creatures into better creatures at EOT.
The problem is that it's probably not a 2-drop, unless you led with a T1 Vial. Normally, we want to get out in front of our opponent s by dropping a T2 Arbiter or Thalia. This really maximizes the pressure that we can put on our opponents. It's also common to see Spellskite as the 2-drop, especially if you can tell your opponent is running a deck with a lot of removal.
In general, Evolutionary Leap is probably something that you'll end up playing on T4, which means that it shouldn't occupy 3 slots in your list. If you want to try playing Evolutionary Leap on T2, go for it. I'm just a little skeptical, because I expect you to get blown out by some of the faster decks in the format, like Affinity, Zoo, and Burn.
I think that Evolutionary Leap is best as a singleton. It's probably good when you find it, but you'll never hit a second one, and you can play it whenever you have some free mana.
No problem. If you have any more questions, please feel free to ask. Welcome to the thread!
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
Can we update the primer a bit. A commonly asked questions and answer section possibly to keep discussions relevant?
Also whats with all the green in the D&T thread, for GW-Hatebears: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/220191-gw-hatebears. Or should we merge these threads? ...Unless I am misunderstanding the purpose for these forums, which I entirely could be, if that's the case just ignore me and I'll just stick to looking at top8 deck lists for ideas.
Anyways, I'm going to chime in on Kytheon, hero of akros/Gideon, Battle-Forged.
Kytheon is not a good card as Kytheon, we can agree on that. A 2/1 with 2W: Gain indestructible is not good, especially in a deck that taxes itself on mana with cards like Ghost Quarter,Horizon canopy, and Tectonic edge.
The idea is that we will one day flip him into Gideon. I'm proposing that Gideon, Battle-forged is not a card we want to run in this deck.
His first ability requires the opponent to have a creature, which we cant always rely on. And if our opponent does have a creature, why do we care about it attacking Gideon over us? We should be the aggressive deck in whatever match we are in; being concerned about something attacking our faces is not a concern you want to have with D&T.
His second ability makes one of our creatures indestructible, until our next turn. Well instant removal is a thing so this is not terribly relevant, also Path to exile. And before I get too much into this argument; why do we care if our creatures are getting pinged off one at-a-time? That's just a thing that is going to happen, not all of our critters are going to survive... The thing we care about is board wipes, not spot removal.
His third ability makes him just a beater and if you refer to the original primer post that is something we do not want in this deck.
All of these mediocre abilities Gidon, Battle-forged brings to the table are only even a possibility if we manage to trigger Kytheon's prerequisites. Having three creatures is not easy sometimes, let alone having three creatures that can attack or that we want to have attacking - also Kytheon has to survive...
That said, if you're unhappy about something, please PM me, and I'll see what I can do.
The primer was actually recently updated! And a big thanks to Sheepz for doing so!
A "commonly asked questions and answer section" would keep poor Sheepz writing for days. Not only are there a bunch of "commonly asked questions" but there's rarely consensus on the thread about the answers. Plus, the answers change over time with changes in the meta, so the information that you're looking for would be outdated quickly.
This is Wx D&T. The "x" denotes a splash.
WG D&T shares about 40-50% of its nonland list with GW Hatebears. They have some similarities, but they play very differently. GW Hatebears is a beatdown deck. D&T is more controlling.
Kytheon is actually pretty good for our deck. The reason it's good, is because when it flips, regardless of the matchup, it almost always has relevant game modes.
This is creature removal for combo pieces and mana dorks.
As soon as Kytheon flips, you almost always use the +1 ability to pull it outside of Bolt range. The +1 ability gives you an indestructible blocker (assuming that you didn't swing with everything), which is useful when your opponent is applying pressure. To your point, this will also help one of our creatures survive mass removal.
At this point, it's a 4/4 for 1 mana. We want that beater. We don't want mana-intensive beaters, but in the 1-drop slot, they're fine.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
Spirits
1. There is no standard DnT list, even down to the Monowhite versions. DnT is a very flexible deck that maintains an essential core, but aside from that core can be customized to personal playstyle and still work very well. Second of all there are slots where there are cards that are considered still up to debate, like whether or not to play 1 drops, or 4 drops. These questions can be meta dependent and I frankly think are good to have as the competitive meta changes frequently enough to warrant constant discussion.
2. Going off that point, as this is W(x) thread, all splashes are discussed here, and frankly all splashes are viable, even the ones that have not been tested extensively (WU/WR), as they all rely on the same core.
3. On Gideon, I think this really just comes down to playing him just too see how good he is. I'm not sure if you have but here's my experience.
a.) A 1 drop 2/1 for W with his ability is pretty good. Just ignoring his flip side he's an aggressive card that can stonewall a Tasigur/Goyf while we beat in the air. This situation happens to me a lot. Because of this he is a fine topdeck later in the game, which is better than most 1 drop creatures in this format can claim.
b) His +2 is a great ability. Lots of times board states get stalled with neither side swinging in until they can get an advantage. His +2 effectively prevents this from happening and forces their singular creatures to swing in and get devoured by our first strikers. This is especially relevant towards small combo creatures. His +2 is repeated removal essentially. I've used it to kill anything from Deciever Exarch, to Tarmogoyf to Merfolk Lords to what have you. Bonus points if you force them to swing into an open Vault of the Archangel.
c) His +1 is great at keeping my Tidehollow Sculler/Dark Confidant alive I'll tell you that much. It also allows you again to stonewall a single larger beater while your small ones plink at them. Also very cool if you get it going with Brimaz/Serra Avenger. That and being able to make him and creature survive board wipes is crazy good. Assuming you had three creatures on the field, including Kytheon, and you get him flipped, then immediately +1, any board wipes that come will effectively only kill 1 creature, while your free to swing with Gideon/the remaining creature without fear. If one of your creatures was Mutavault they can't actually board wipe you.
d) His +0 makes him a 4/4 beater. Investing 1 mana into a 4/4 beater is a better return rate than Goyf. Given the utility of his first two abilities, I don't know you can call him "just a beater". Nothing gives Grixis control more fits than Gideon swinging in.
e) I've only had two scenarios occur when I've played with Kytheon. Either he gets removed, or he flips. That is a great investment to make for 1 mana, and leaves less removal for your core deck slots to do their thing.
I think a lot of the things we might talk about wont make sense to each other. We are playing the deck completely differently. Like I don't have to worry about stalled board states, the games don't last that long. I also will never have enough mana to activate a Vault, I'll be sac'ing and using my mana to attack theirs long before Vault can get activated. You are also running black? This is what I mean we are not even on the same plane of discussion regarding card choices. I think this is what I mean about this thread having no structure.
Regarding some points about Kytheon, yes some good points made again, like I said to CharonsObol; I'll have to think about it more.
I have narrowed my choice down to a final three, which do you guys think I should choose?
Modern
TasitwinURB
UWRb ControlUWRB
Death and TaxesWW
Legacy
Death and TaxesWW
I haven't found another place for Modern DnT other than this thread. As for the discussions on this thread it's pretty cyclical really, usually a winning list gets posted and we dissect it to bits before talking about the pros and cons of the different playstyles (disruption vs. pressure), different cards for taxing/beater slots, and the splashes (and micro-splashes).
Generally as a rule I think all of the frequent posters here have played mono-white pretty extensively and can offer feedback on it. You should post a list, your meta, and most importantly your playstyle. Like I said previously, even in the mono-white version there is a lot of room for debate as to what is the best in slot, and it really comes down to preference.
For example, you quoted Sheepz's saying on how we don't run creatures that are "just beaters", Sheepz (the primer writer) generally sites Serra Avenger as the archetypical example of this. Yet here we have a Top 8 GP Deck List that maindecked 3 of them, and the pilot who later (on this thread), said they were very important to his victories. On the flipside there have been decks without them that have gone heavier on the tax plan that do just as well. This pretty much shows that there is no best way to play this deck. That's actually why I, and others on this thread, love it so much.
If you have just a question, a statement, or a report it's easy to get feedback on this thread, and I believe we are all really passionate about the deck more so than other deck threads, at least in my opinion.
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
How to Use Spoiler Tags
Starting Over: The Origins of the Mulligan Rule
Practical Approach to Slow Play
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 2: SWARM and TOOLBOX
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 3
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 4
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Introduction to Tempo
Controlling Tempo
Elements of Tempo
Roadblocks to Tempo
How Not To Build A Deck - Tempo
Learn How To Sideboard, Dammit!
Mulligan's Island
The Art of the Mulligan
The Art of the Mulligan: Eight Case Studies
Fundamentals: The Mulligan
Some Mulligan Exercises
A Mulligan Is Worth Three Cards
The Mulligan Debate
Common Sense: The Art of the Mulligan
Who's The Beatdown?
3 Caves of Koilos
3 Eldrazi Temple
2 Fetid Heath
3 Godless Shrine
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Plains
3 Shambling Vent
2 Tectonic Edge
Artifacts (4):
4 Æther Vial
4 Path to Exile
Creatures (29):
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Wasteland Strangler
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Flooded Strand
6 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
Creatures (16):
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stormchaser Mage
2 Gut Shot
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mutagenic Growth
3 Spell Pierce
3 Twisted Image
3 Vapor Snag
Sorceries (8):
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Blood Moon
2 Dispel
1 Forked Bolt
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Repeal
2 Roast
1 Spell Snare
2 Spellskite
1 Vapor Snag
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Copperline Gorge
5 Mountain
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
Creatures (14):
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Atarka's Command
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Searing Blaze
Sorceries (8):
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
2 Deflecting Palm
4 Destructive Revelry
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Path to Exile
2 Rending Volley
3 Skullcrack
19 Forest
3 Treetop Village
Creatures (24):
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Dryad Militant
2 Dungrove Elder
4 Experiment One
4 Leatherback Baloth
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Rancor
Instants (10):
3 Aspect of Hydra
4 Vines of Vastwood
3 Dismember
2 Choke
2 Gut Shot
2 Deglamer
2 Feed the Clan
2 Oxidize
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Skylasher
1 Unravel the Æther
Ghost Quarterx4, Tectonic Edgex2, Horizon Canopyx3, Eiganjo Castlex1, Plainsx11.
---
Path to exilex4, Aether Vialx4
---
Judge's Familiarx3, Leonin Arbiterx4, Thalia, Guardian of thrabenx4, Aven Mindcensorx3, Vryn Wingmarex4, Flickerwispx3, Restoration Angelx2
So I have 8 card slots that I am trying to get ideas for.
Kitchen Finks: I really am not afraid of burn matchup and am considering shipping this off to sideboard.
Blade Splicer:Just a beatern except vs affinity, but again want to ship off to sideboard
Mangara of corondor:Don't know how often he will land
Archangel of tithes:I don't understand why this card is good.
Dismember:With 4x thalia and 4x wingmare, I don't want to have to run it, but I think I am forced to.
Foiled out Odyssey plains 333 of course
First things first, we're going to make your list into a decklist:
3 Judge's Familiar
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Aven Mindcensor
4 Vryn Wingmare
3 Flickerwisp
2 Restoration Angel
4 Æther Vial
4 Path to Exile
Lands (21)
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Tectonic Edge
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Eiganjo Castle
11 Plains
Next, a few comments on your list:
1) Always run 4 Flickerwisp. Always. You'll thank me later.
2) 3 Mindcensor is probably too many. The conventional wisdom says 0-2 are the right number, depending on your meta. I personally run 2. The green splash occasionally runs 3, but when it does, it plays 3 Arbiter instead of 4.
3) 4 Wingmare is too many. The typical number is 0-3, depending on your meta. I frequently run 3, and am not disappointed. A lot of people think that Wingmare isn't aggressive enough, and they don't run it at all. I think it's most common to see Wingmare at 1 or 2 copies.
4) 21 lands is possible (and occasionally successful), but most of the people in this thread run 23. Just be aware that you're dipping into dangerous territory with your manabase.
Last, responses to your comments:
Kitchen Finks: Obviously very good against burn, but it also does work in matchups that use 1-for-1 removal, like Grixis control. It typically shares a slot in this deck with Mirran Crusader and (occasionally) Blade Splicer. They're all good in different ways.
Blade Splicer: This is more than just a beater. It's a beater, but a particularly nasty one in this deck. Because of Flickerwisp and Restoration Angel, it often puts a bunch of extra power on the board. And if you're running Mutavaults, Blade Splicer enables some really unfair plays.
Mangara of Corondor: This card is much better in Legacy than it is in Modern. In Modern, it's a lightning rod, and almost never sticks. Plus, it typically costs you tempo, because your opponent will kill it with something that costs less than 3 mana. It's not a popular choice in this deck. When it sees play, it's a 1-of, and it takes opponents by surprise.
Archangel of Tithes: This card is good because our opponents aren't always able to attack through it. Decks that swarm (BW Tokens, Merfolk, etc.) need to pay a lot of mana in order to swing out. This card shines in a lot of matchups that we tend to lose (like Merfolk).
Dismember: If you run this, it should only be a 1-of. It costs you too much life otherwise.
@Chalupacabra: I also run Innistrad basics. That plane had such a good vibe for this deck.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps