With the recent discussion of WR Death and Taxes build there was some discussion about Akroma but I was wondering how skeet and other WR players are assessing her at the moment. Yeah there is some removal that hits it with the rise of Grixis Twin and Delver but I'm not sure that is enough of a reason not to include her somewhere in the 75 especially if the list is running Magus of the Moon since it can win the game almost single-handedly.
The card has been mentioned in this thread a million times and even I have joked about people bringing the card up every once in a while but in reality I think it's a little too cute for anything else except the WR build even though it can be cast as a morph creature. I can see the dilemma of it being a win-more sort of a card and this actually sparked an interesting question in me and its something I want to ask all of you.
How do we determine when a card is considered to be a win-more and how do we define the difference between such cards and the cards that are optimumforourdeck?
Finally as a side note I want to mention how I dream of building a WR Deathblade and Taxes deck with Akroma, Thalia and Alesha swinging with those Hero's Blades like there is no tomorrow. That's all.
I think she's too cute. You could only run it as a one of, you have to morph it no matter what colors you are (if you're able to cast it hard, you already won), dies to all removal as a 2/2 and they know what it is, and it doesn't even win you the game on the spot if you manage to pull it off. If I were to throw a cute one of win condition in my WR list it would certainly be Kiki Jiki.
In general the way to determine if things are win-more or essential is testing. To prune the things we do test, I find it best to use quadrant theory. Imagine all the different situations where you could see the card, and what it's doing for you in that situation. More specifically, what does it do when you're; behind, ahead, at parity, and developing. I also look at where it fits into the curve of the deck and how it compares to the other choices (all of this before testing). In Akroma's case:
Developing:
Actively bad. You only have one of and it's a big win condition, so you can't play it out morphed until you have a Resto or Vial flicker set up, or you're really sure they don't have removal. It also does almost nothing to help you establish board presence as a vanilla 2/2 that costs three.
Parity:
Mediocre. If you have a flicker trick set up to get it, it's good, but then you're already not really at parity because you have some tricks, and could equally use most other cards to get value here. If you get the full setup and flip, she'll probably break parity. I still don't really want to see her here unless I think I've burned their removal or I have the flip for her. Paying three for a 2/2 without while at parity gives them time to draw/break it.
Behind:
Great, if you can flip her in time. Terrible if you can't. If you have an empty board and topdeck her with a wisp/vial ready to go, you're probably ecstatic. If you don't you probably just lost.
Ahead:
Great. They have other threats to worry about with their removal, so they're not going to burn it on her, you're probably safe to drop her. If you get to flip here you probably win on the spot since you're already doing good damage.
All that combined means it's not something I want. It's pretty high variance, requires synergy to almost ever be good, and it's upside isn't as high as other 1 of options.
On the sidenote, I also really want to do that, and that's a deck she would totally work in.
@ltglitter @spiderspace I'm not a fan of the flicker builds. The blade splicer/ resto plan doesn't feel like I'm in control. It's jut like in splinter twin when you have to have almost 10 cards dedicated to the synergy. But if it's not good against a specific deck, you have all these cards that feel sub-optimal. Resto is one of those cards to me. You need great flicker targets or you end up sandbagging looking for an opportunity or she's flat out stuck in your hand. Once I started shaving four drops and deploying faster threats my vial value went up as well. Don't get me wrong, I know she's amazing i just personally don't enjoy or do well with the flicker builds.
The only difference I see between the two cards is that one costs 4 mana and once costs 5.
Cast either vs. elves, merfolk or tokens and your opponent is going to be left with the same creature in play no matter which one you cast.
Reread the cards then :D.
Tragic Arrogance - 3WW
For each player, you choose from among the permanents that player controls an artifact, a creature, an enchantment, and a planeswalker. Then each player sacrifices all other nonland permanents he or she controls.
Divine Reckoning - 2WW Each player chooses a creature he or she controls. Destroy the rest.
Flashback 5WW
So the conditional upside is that the card that remains for you is your best one, and for them their worst one. With Divine Reckoning you both have your best one.
Sorry for nagging guys, but i'd love some feedback and constructive criticism on my list and thoughts on page 192. It's the biggest modern tournament i've played (and my first one since assembling the deck in paper - Been playing the deck online for awhile thow". Kinda nervous tbh.
I don't like Mindcensor, haven't hopped on the heavy taxing build with Wingmare, think you should be running Avengers. I obviously have a different playstyle though and none of this advice really matters much because I haven't tested your list. You have two weeks, start testing online. Print out the gauntlet on metadeck.me and test with a friend. Track your stats with the deck in an excel sheet (something like this or this if you're testing a bunch of decks instead of just one).
AKA get to work :D. Any remotely competitive build of this deck can play really differently, so as long as you have something good enough to test, start testing. Looks to me like what you have is good enough to test.
I think it's hard for us to give you "correct" constructive criticism, because we would all build this differently.
If this were my deck, I would make the list more aggressive (1-drops), not so top heavy (fewer 4-drops), add more white sources (because Archangel of Tithes is ridiculous), add 2x Canopies, remove the Leylines and singleton Spellskite from the board, and replace it with 3x Mirran Crusader. If possible, I'd try to find room for 2x EE, because that card is almost always useful.
If you need help building the manabase, I can help with the statistics, depending on what you're looking for.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
I was imying that vs. Elves, when you cast either one they are going to be left with a 1/1, and vs merfolk they are going to be left with a 2/2. Almost all of our creatures should be better that that unless you aren't playing Serra avenger, brimaz, blade splicer or kitchen finks.
That's what I meant about them having the same creature in play regardless of which spell you cast.
Edit: I reread my own post and forgot about tokens. With both spells you and your opponent get the choice between a 1/1 flyer, a 1/1 flyer or a 1/1 flyer.
I was imying that vs. Elves, when you cast either one they are going to be left with a 1/1, and vs merfolk they are going to be left with a 2/2. Almost all of our creatures should be better that that unless you aren't playing Serra avenger, brimaz, blade splicer or kitchen finks.
That's what I meant about them having the same creature in play regardless of which spell you cast.
Edit: I reread my own post and forgot about tokens. With both spells you and your opponent get the choice between a 1/1 flyer, a 1/1 flyer or a 1/1 flyer.
You will reach turn 5/6 to be able to cast a sorcery vs Elves and Merfolk? Not so sure.
I was imying that vs. Elves, when you cast either one they are going to be left with a 1/1, and vs merfolk they are going to be left with a 2/2. Almost all of our creatures should be better that that unless you aren't playing Serra avenger, brimaz, blade splicer or kitchen finks.
That's what I meant about them having the same creature in play regardless of which spell you cast.
Edit: I reread my own post and forgot about tokens. With both spells you and your opponent get the choice between a 1/1 flyer, a 1/1 flyer or a 1/1 flyer.
You will reach turn 5/6 to be able to cast a sorcery vs Elves and Merfolk? Not so sure.
Well since those are the decks that people are bringing *** from the side board in against... yah?
Hi all taxpayers!
I have been jamming about month with monowhite (with Vryn wingmare) and WB version in online (2 mans and tournament practice). I have been in trouble against Abzan CoCo and Kiki-Chord.
How you beat these decks?
Grafdigger's Cage in place of RIP, or Hallowed Moonlight.
Well RiP is pretty good against abzan coco. I run 2 phyrexian revokers in the board. Engineered explosives is good vs abzan. I run into a lot of abzan but never kiki over here.
Hi all taxpayers!
I have been jamming about month with monowhite (with Vryn wingmare) and WB version in online (2 mans and tournament practice). I have been in trouble against Abzan CoCo and Kiki-Chord.
How you beat these decks?
Grafdigger's Cage in place of RIP, or Hallowed Moonlight.
I'm with you on hallowed since it ruins some big combos by surprise. I don't like grafdiggers though because it doesn't clear the gy upon entry and once it is destroyed the whole gy is in play again.
With those decks I hold my paths for the bigger threats and since I am so flier heavy (4 vryn) I usually maintain an edge through the air the whole time. Mirran from the sb becomes a beater and I wish I could fit 2 into the sb.
*edit I dropped 1 thalia 1 vryn and moved tithes to the SB in order to add back in the 3 serra avengers. The online meta seems to be getting a whole lot more creature based and with the familiars and spellskites i've had good luck keeping the avengers alive. Vigilance is awesome too and it keeps merfolk at bay until it can spreading seas.
I do like the vryn's for combo decks but I got tired of being blown out. 3 flicker 3 thalia 3 vryn is enough for me to see them consistently enough, imo.
I don't think Vryn Wingmare is good enough in modern. I tested it and it feels bad. Modern is much more creature heavy. It feels about the same power level as Aven Mindcensor. When it's good it's nuts, but when it's bad it's real bad.
Surprisingly I've put in 2 Wilt-Leaf Liege main-board. They have been pretty insane. It' makes the Jund/Junk match-up better game one because they either don't expect it main-board or have to respect it. It's an anthem, which I feel this deck always needed (Good god it's insane with dryad militant; 1 mana 4/3? Yes please), and it can close out games out of nowhere because it throws off math. Also making most of your 1 toughness dudes not die to lingering souls is a HUGE help.
I've been having some trouble with some of the big guys like Tasigur and Siege Rhino. I've only come up with two solutions.
1. Heliod's Pilgrim + Angelic Destiny, which gives some card advantage, but it doesn't play well with Arbiter, Thalia, or Vyrn.
2. Play black and add in Abyssal Persecutor, but then the deck will need ~12 outlets for the persecutor.
I would have to disagree with Wingmare not being Modern playable, especially the online meta. Lets do some quick math based on the current online meta per mtgogoldfish.
Splinter Twin, Grixis control, Jund, Burn, Scapeshift, GrTron, Infect, and Bloom: all play 22+ non-creature spells.
Affinity: 16-18 non-creature spells, plus any flying creature is a bonus vs affinity. I have definitely won several games vs affinity on the play by dropping thalia followed by wingmare and completely shutting off their ability to play mox and drum. Without those extra sources of mana they can sometimes just fold since they only play 16-17 lands and sometimes keep one land opening hands.
Merfolk: 12 non-creature spells. Basically the only tier one deck that wingmare strikes out against.
The first group is 50%+ of the meta. A card that is good vs at least half of the meta is definitely playable in my opinion. It is also decent vs affinity due to having flying and them having a moderate non-creature spell count, adding another 10%.
I don't think running a full playset of 4 is correct, since it dilutes your power too much, but running 2-3 in combination with 3-4 Thalia (I find 6 total taxers to work well) is very effective in the current modern meta.
Also, the evasion is not to be underestimated. I have won games vs decks like Jund by having extra flyers like wingmare flying over would be blockers.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Modern decks: Death and Taxes, Hatebears, Well Oiled Machine, Merfolk, Nyx Wave, Soul Sisters, Stompy, Matyr Proc, Naya Zoo, Robots (I refuse to call it affinity!), Bogles, Kiki Chord
Something is wrong with the meta in our local store, 50% of the modern players run Death and Taxes. So the Merfolk guy usually wins. How do you deal with mirror matches? What do you sideboard against Death And Taxes?
Something is wrong with the meta in our local store, 50% of the modern players run Death and Taxes. So the Merfolk guy usually wins. How do you deal with mirror matches? What do you sideboard against Death And Taxes?
I've been having some trouble with some of the big guys like Tasigur and Siege Rhino. I've only come up with two solutions.
1. Heliod's Pilgrim + Angelic Destiny, which gives some card advantage, but it doesn't play well with Arbiter, Thalia, or Vyrn.
2. Play black and add in Abyssal Persecutor, but then the deck will need ~12 outlets for the persecutor.
Cast either vs. elves, merfolk or tokens and your opponent is going to be left with the same creature in play no matter which one you cast.
I think she's too cute. You could only run it as a one of, you have to morph it no matter what colors you are (if you're able to cast it hard, you already won), dies to all removal as a 2/2 and they know what it is, and it doesn't even win you the game on the spot if you manage to pull it off. If I were to throw a cute one of win condition in my WR list it would certainly be Kiki Jiki.
In general the way to determine if things are win-more or essential is testing. To prune the things we do test, I find it best to use quadrant theory. Imagine all the different situations where you could see the card, and what it's doing for you in that situation. More specifically, what does it do when you're; behind, ahead, at parity, and developing. I also look at where it fits into the curve of the deck and how it compares to the other choices (all of this before testing). In Akroma's case:
Developing:
Actively bad. You only have one of and it's a big win condition, so you can't play it out morphed until you have a Resto or Vial flicker set up, or you're really sure they don't have removal. It also does almost nothing to help you establish board presence as a vanilla 2/2 that costs three.
Parity:
Mediocre. If you have a flicker trick set up to get it, it's good, but then you're already not really at parity because you have some tricks, and could equally use most other cards to get value here. If you get the full setup and flip, she'll probably break parity. I still don't really want to see her here unless I think I've burned their removal or I have the flip for her. Paying three for a 2/2 without while at parity gives them time to draw/break it.
Behind:
Great, if you can flip her in time. Terrible if you can't. If you have an empty board and topdeck her with a wisp/vial ready to go, you're probably ecstatic. If you don't you probably just lost.
Ahead:
Great. They have other threats to worry about with their removal, so they're not going to burn it on her, you're probably safe to drop her. If you get to flip here you probably win on the spot since you're already doing good damage.
All that combined means it's not something I want. It's pretty high variance, requires synergy to almost ever be good, and it's upside isn't as high as other 1 of options.
On the sidenote, I also really want to do that, and that's a deck she would totally work in.
Death and Taxes Videos
Traproot Graphics
Modern:
Fateseal Control | Current Version on TappedOut
Modern Death and Taxes | Current Version on TappedOut
Bant Tempo | Current Version on TappedOut
@ltglitter@spiderspace I'm not a fan of the flicker builds. The blade splicer/ resto plan doesn't feel like I'm in control. It's jut like in splinter twin when you have to have almost 10 cards dedicated to the synergy. But if it's not good against a specific deck, you have all these cards that feel sub-optimal. Resto is one of those cards to me. You need great flicker targets or you end up sandbagging looking for an opportunity or she's flat out stuck in your hand. Once I started shaving four drops and deploying faster threats my vial value went up as well. Don't get me wrong, I know she's amazing i just personally don't enjoy or do well with the flicker builds.WWModern Death And Taxes (w/ Militia Bugler) (JUL '19)
GWModern Maverick (JUL '19)
WBCatmix on Twitch!
WWCatmix on Youtube
WWModern Death And Taxes (w/ Militia Bugler) (JUL '19)
GWModern Maverick (JUL '19)
WBCatmix on Twitch!
WWCatmix on Youtube
Reread the cards then :D.
Tragic Arrogance - 3WW
For each player, you choose from among the permanents that player controls an artifact, a creature, an enchantment, and a planeswalker. Then each player sacrifices all other nonland permanents he or she controls.
Divine Reckoning - 2WW
Each player chooses a creature he or she controls. Destroy the rest.
Flashback 5WW
So the conditional upside is that the card that remains for you is your best one, and for them their worst one. With Divine Reckoning you both have your best one.
Death and Taxes Videos
Traproot Graphics
Modern:
Fateseal Control | Current Version on TappedOut
Modern Death and Taxes | Current Version on TappedOut
Bant Tempo | Current Version on TappedOut
AKA get to work :D. Any remotely competitive build of this deck can play really differently, so as long as you have something good enough to test, start testing. Looks to me like what you have is good enough to test.
Death and Taxes Videos
Traproot Graphics
Modern:
Fateseal Control | Current Version on TappedOut
Modern Death and Taxes | Current Version on TappedOut
Bant Tempo | Current Version on TappedOut
4 Æther Vial
4 Path to Exile
Creature:
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Spellskite
4 Flickerwisp
4 Blade Splicer
3 Vryn Wingmare
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2 Restoration Angel
2 Archangel of Tithes
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Tectonic Edge
1 Eiganjo Castle
14 Plains
3 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
2 Worship
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Mark of Asylum
1 Spellskite
2 Leyline of Sanctity
I think it's hard for us to give you "correct" constructive criticism, because we would all build this differently.
If this were my deck, I would make the list more aggressive (1-drops), not so top heavy (fewer 4-drops), add more white sources (because Archangel of Tithes is ridiculous), add 2x Canopies, remove the Leylines and singleton Spellskite from the board, and replace it with 3x Mirran Crusader. If possible, I'd try to find room for 2x EE, because that card is almost always useful.
If you need help building the manabase, I can help with the statistics, depending on what you're looking for.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
Reread my reply then
I was imying that vs. Elves, when you cast either one they are going to be left with a 1/1, and vs merfolk they are going to be left with a 2/2. Almost all of our creatures should be better that that unless you aren't playing Serra avenger, brimaz, blade splicer or kitchen finks.
That's what I meant about them having the same creature in play regardless of which spell you cast.
Edit: I reread my own post and forgot about tokens. With both spells you and your opponent get the choice between a 1/1 flyer, a 1/1 flyer or a 1/1 flyer.
You will reach turn 5/6 to be able to cast a sorcery vs Elves and Merfolk? Not so sure.
Well since those are the decks that people are bringing *** from the side board in against... yah?
Grafdigger's Cage in place of RIP, or Hallowed Moonlight.
I'm with you on hallowed since it ruins some big combos by surprise. I don't like grafdiggers though because it doesn't clear the gy upon entry and once it is destroyed the whole gy is in play again.
With those decks I hold my paths for the bigger threats and since I am so flier heavy (4 vryn) I usually maintain an edge through the air the whole time. Mirran from the sb becomes a beater and I wish I could fit 2 into the sb.
*edit I dropped 1 thalia 1 vryn and moved tithes to the SB in order to add back in the 3 serra avengers. The online meta seems to be getting a whole lot more creature based and with the familiars and spellskites i've had good luck keeping the avengers alive. Vigilance is awesome too and it keeps merfolk at bay until it can spreading seas.
I do like the vryn's for combo decks but I got tired of being blown out. 3 flicker 3 thalia 3 vryn is enough for me to see them consistently enough, imo.
Surprisingly I've put in 2 Wilt-Leaf Liege main-board. They have been pretty insane. It' makes the Jund/Junk match-up better game one because they either don't expect it main-board or have to respect it. It's an anthem, which I feel this deck always needed (Good god it's insane with dryad militant; 1 mana 4/3? Yes please), and it can close out games out of nowhere because it throws off math. Also making most of your 1 toughness dudes not die to lingering souls is a HUGE help.
1. Heliod's Pilgrim + Angelic Destiny, which gives some card advantage, but it doesn't play well with Arbiter, Thalia, or Vyrn.
2. Play black and add in Abyssal Persecutor, but then the deck will need ~12 outlets for the persecutor.
Has anyone tried?
Modern Tallowisp Spirits - A Modern Tallowisp Deck UW
Eldrazi Ninjas - Summoning Octopus Jutsu YYYYAAAHHHH!
STANDARD
Naban Wizards
Splinter Twin, Grixis control, Jund, Burn, Scapeshift, GrTron, Infect, and Bloom: all play 22+ non-creature spells.
Affinity: 16-18 non-creature spells, plus any flying creature is a bonus vs affinity. I have definitely won several games vs affinity on the play by dropping thalia followed by wingmare and completely shutting off their ability to play mox and drum. Without those extra sources of mana they can sometimes just fold since they only play 16-17 lands and sometimes keep one land opening hands.
Merfolk: 12 non-creature spells. Basically the only tier one deck that wingmare strikes out against.
The first group is 50%+ of the meta. A card that is good vs at least half of the meta is definitely playable in my opinion. It is also decent vs affinity due to having flying and them having a moderate non-creature spell count, adding another 10%.
I don't think running a full playset of 4 is correct, since it dilutes your power too much, but running 2-3 in combination with 3-4 Thalia (I find 6 total taxers to work well) is very effective in the current modern meta.
Also, the evasion is not to be underestimated. I have won games vs decks like Jund by having extra flyers like wingmare flying over would be blockers.
Do you play at my store?
Put two copies of Celestial Purge or Devout Lightcaster into your sideboard