@Catmix
It's too bad you got knocked out there. You did put up some good info though. While I disagree with a lot of the choices you've made in WB (lingering and Serra), it is cool to see WB put up some results between you and skeet. I've been testing a version of WB recently and I decided to put 2 orzhov pontiff main and I've actually been really impressed. There are so many creature decks right now and it can actually give us a fighting chance (I'm thinking elves coco in particular). It has worked a few times as an attack deterrent because of haunt and it also has given me a way to do a mini overrun and pull out a surprise win. With lingering, it might be even better. I'd recommend it to anybody running WB right now. I'm aware that classically for WB, it and tidehollow sculler are viewed as the reasons to splash (both are in my list), but I haven't seen anybody run them in a while and pontiff in particular seems super relevant right now so I thought I'd give y'all a reminder.
@spiderspace thank you! I think pontiff is the reason I stuck to the black splash. Between that and lingering souls, I've been pulling out wins that I would normally lose to (infect, affinity). And as you said the clock it does is crazy if you choose pump. I've had games where a lingering and a Mirran crusader just wins on the spot. I won't ever try to sell people on lingering taxes but I do think it's just as powerful as a tier 1 modern deck. My toughest part to nail is the sb. As more matches get played, I realize there are cards I never use. But hands down WORSHIP is the best sb card in his format!
My closing record at Washington was 6-1-2 (2 intentional draws). Meaning my only loss was in top 8.
Side note: burrenton forge-tender is a house against griselshoalbrand. Borygomos can't throw lands at you if you sac bft before he's put into play. They'll the. Have to discard down with not enough cards to finish playing magic.
-Anthony (from here out I guess !)
Ps: spiderspace, did you see the disrespect! They called me hatebears too!
Ps: spiderspace, did you see the disrespect! They called me hatebears too!
I wouldn't take this one personally.
I'm pretty sure SCG thinks Hatebears and D&T are the same deck. I'm don't think I've ever seen them properly report a list as having been Modern D&T. Maybe it's all a conspiracy to keep us labeled a tier 3 deck: we win and Hatebears gets the credit.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
I've gone 3-0 and 2-1 with the deck the last two events I took it to (this LGS only has 3 round Modern tournaments and the other LGS that has 4 round tournaments is closed for renovations for all of August).
I also received the rest of my foil Razorverge Thickets, Noble Hierarchs, Horizon Canopy and Forge-Tenders in the mail! I currently have another foil Dissension Ghost Quarter and 4 Original Ravnica Temple Gardens in the mail as well. I should have them for the PPTQ this Sunday!
I currently have these left to pick up before my entire deck is foil!
3x Horizon Canopy
4x AEther Vial (I only want Darksteel ones)
1x Ghost Quarter (Dissension)
2x Spellskite
I'll make sure to post a picture once I have it completed (the Canopies are going to be rough).
I ended up going 2-1.
Match 1: Burn
Game 1: I dismantled him by going Hierarch, Arbiter + GQ, Thalia, Wingmare.
Game 2 I was able to play a turn 1 Forge-Tender into a turn 2 Spellskite but he ran over me with his 2x Goblin Guide, 3x Swiftspear into multiple Lava Spike hand.
Game 3 I traded off some of my creatures and used double forge-tender to protect my scooze and eventually won with a 7/7 scooze. I was at 4 life.
(2-1)
My opponent had some very good draws with an opening goblin guide every game (2x in two of the games) but this is a pretty favorable matchup for my build.
Match 2: Affinity
Game 1: We went back and forth trading resources and I eventually got him in a situation where the play was to sac everything to to ravager and onto a vault skirge to stay alive/win the race. I had two draw steps to basically win the game (path, qasali, flickerwisp all won the game and all my flying creatures were redraws since they blocked for a turn) but I ended up drawing a vial and a land and loss a close game.
My SB plan is that I keep both Vials and Stony Silence in on the play and live with the nonbo (since vial + avenger is fantastic in thsi matchup) but take out the vials on the draw since they are too slow.
Game 2: Serra Avenger after a turn 1 vial start is incredibly strong. I am able to save it from a galvanic blast with a flickerwisp and he whipflares a flickerwisp and wingmare. But Serra Avenger with exalted is too much for him and he dies.
Sbing -4 AEther Vial
+1 Scavenging Ooze
+1 Thali, Guardian of Thraben
+2 Spellskite
Serra Avenger is a bit slow on the draw and without vials but they are a house once they are in play so I kept them in anyways. Could be a mistake.
Game 3: I mulligan a hand of Noble Hierarch, Flickerwisp, Serra Avenger and 4 lands which 1 of them were a ghost quarter (I am pretty sure this hand is just too slow since I need to top deck to do anything outside of hierarch into wisp). I peeked at the top 2 and both were lands...yea yea results orientated. My new 6 had a Stony Silence, Hierarch, 2 lands, Qasali Pridemage, Thalia. I played out hierarch and he galvanic blast it on his turn 2 and he had an early signal pest and vault skirge. I played my Stony Silence vs. his opening hand of double darksteel and a spellskite. I end up using pridmage to kill the vault skirge (over teh pest which may or may not of been a mistake but he only had pest and spellskite). He is only dealing 1-3 dmg a turn but I am unable to draw anything useful and miss on 3-4 consecutive draw steps (2nd Stony Silence, a land, hierarch, etc). He plays an etched champion and I respond with a pridemage and am forced to blow it on his freshly drawn plating. I draw two more lands and am dead. I think this game was very winnable but my deck didn't want to cooperate.
(1-2)
Match 3: Esper Control
Game 1: I have an opening hand of GQ x2, Mindcensor, Flickerwisp, Vial, 2 more lands. On turn 4 I double strip mine him and he stuck on 1 land. I drew another GQ and Tectonic Edge and kept him under 3-4 lands the entire game with a full grip that he could barely cast but out of 16 total cards seen, I drew 12 lands (4 spells being vial, wisp, mindcensor and arbiter). This game should of been an easy win but it just didn't happen. Lingering Souls and Verdict on his side was enough for me to scoop.
SBing +1 Thalia
+1 Wingmare
+1 Scavenging Ooze
-3 Path
I saw collonade, souls and snap as his only creatures. So I only kept in a single path and dismember.
Game 2: I went turn 1 Hierarch into Arbiter + GQ into Thalia into Wingmare with another GQ mixed in somewhere and it was over before it started. He was able to play a Tasigur.
SBing +2 Mirran Crusader
+1 Path
-3 Qasali Pridemage
In response to him having black delve creatures.
Game 3: This was another pretty slanted game but it was a combination of Thalia, Wingmare and Scooze (played a scooze and ate his souls after he tapped out to play it and it kept his snaps at bay). Tec edge was pretty great as well to keep him on 3-4 mana and leaving a verdict stranded in hand (which cost 6 mana).
(2-1)
I really like my current build and I am looking forward to playing it at this weekend's PPTQ! I can't wait to finish foiling it out!
@skeet70: Concerning the WR build (and maybe this has been discussed before but the search engine on this site is horrendous) have you tried out or have a take on Simian Spirit Guide? Turn one Thalia, Guardian of Thraben or Leonin Arbiter could potentially be backbreaking to some decks in my mind.
I'm also having a hard time imagining Tunnel Ignus and arbiter in the same deck since they want different things to happen. What say the people?
Try using this for a working search. I don't think the upside of Simian Spirit Guide is worth how often it's going to just be a dead card (as well as card disadvantage). Even against those decks where it could be backbreaking, it could almost as easily just get burned right away, or they could just play a basic. I honestly like Leonin most when I have a Path or GC ready to go to make sure I get value out of him (other than forcing them to have some removal spell/basics in the first few turns, which they usually will).
I imagined Tunnel Ignus + Arbiter as being a "damned if you do, damned if you don't". They're both sides of the same coin, getting value off fetches, GC, and Path, they just do it in opposite ways. That doesn't necessarily weaken either of them IMO, just makes the opponent need two removal spells. If both are out, bolting Leonin in response to a GC isn't as much of a blowout, that's for sure.
I'm off that list though anyways, I don't think the extra direct damage taxers and bolts are the reason to be in red, I think it's the extra pressure you can put on their manabase.
I think that Hatebears and DnT have about 70-80% overlap, but anyway
Even in the most extreme case, WG Hatebears and WG D&T share about 40-50% of the same nonland cards. But of course, the other 50-60% of the cards make the decks play totally differently.
Honestly, I'm not sure why SCG can't seem to tell the difference between Modern Hatebears and Modern D&T. For comparison, in Legacy, Sneak and Show and OmniTell share approximately the same percentage of nonland cards, but no one at SCG thinks they're the same deck.
The irony of looking at Catmix's list and calling it "BW Hatebears" is that I haven't seen a competitive BW Hatebear list since the banning of Deathrite Shaman. I mean, there was this one deck in February called BW Hatebears, piloted by some guy named "spiderspace"...
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
In general the problem with modern is, that if the game goes longer, and it often does, then attacking the mana base isn't it. While in legacy you just destroy your opponent in modern you often just make the game longer but they still will drop a land every turn...
I really like the way the WB lists are going, but somehow I think that Hierarchs and maybe Smiters are just too good. If you have no Vial you maybe at least have a Hierarch and also, if you have both you can Vial in the Hierarch when having 1 counter. In the BW build from the SCG event there was no creature for one mana at all, that's kind of ineffeicient if you have no Vial in your opening 7. So, maybe GW is the way to go?
You're correct, attacking the manabase gets weaker as the game goes longer. That's a big part of why both Catmix and I cut to 3 Leonin in our WB lists. The WB deck, more than any other Modern DnT build, almost wants to go pretty long. It wants to win by blocking Smiters and Goyfs with Lingering Souls tokens while swinging with Avenger and Wisp in the air. It uses the taxes to put the opponent on awkward footing and give us time to set up, not to lock them off colors (unless it's sitting right there ;)).
No one drop is along the same line. In the WB list your ideal "one drop" is Mutavault (outside of Vial), and you can drop him turn 1 to play Vial, still getting in on T2 if you don't want to drop a bear, or you want to Vial them in. Instead of running one drops that get in maybe a few damage and are dead cards the rest of the game, it gets rid of them to run more mid-to-late game beaters and value cards that are almost always live. Ripping a Militant or Familiar after the first few turns sucks unless you fully have them on the back foot, ripping Souls/Avenger/Brimaz/Hordechief/Pontiff is pretty much always good after the first few turns even if you're on the back foot.
I think it's stronger than the GW version, but I don't (and I don't think Catmix does either) really feel the need to push it on you guys or anything. I think both of us are actually really happy with where our lists are at, and have been doing very well with them for a pretty long time now. Seems like almost every splash (except maybe blue) is pretty viable in the meta right now, so I haven't been trying to convince people to switch to WB lately :D.
Just thought I'd try to explain some of WBs differences. Catmix probably has additional/different thoughts to mine as well! I wish we could have subforums in this thread for each color splash haha, each one plays pretty differently. Not to mention the differences in card choice drastically affecting playstyle within a color combination in the first place :D.
Honestly, I'm not sure why SCG can't seem to tell the difference between Modern Hatebears and Modern D&T. For comparison, in Legacy, Sneak and Show and OmniTell share approximately the same percentage of nonland cards, but no one at SCG thinks they're the same deck.
Maybe Hatebears is a more widely recognized term than Death and Taxes. But i also don't like that D&T is mixed up with that Hatebears "regime", since in my opinion Death % Taxes sounds way more awesome
I haven't attended a PPTQ or anything yet, aren't you able to give your deck a name as you sign in for the tournament or something like that?
Yeah, you can. They don't use it though most of the time. I had a homebrew I T8d states with last year, wrote "Yslira Pod" as the deck name, they posted it as "Yisan and Jalira".
They give you the option to put a deck name, but it's only used if you're piloting a brew. That makes some sense when you think about it, because it's more useful to call a deck by its archetype (as opposed to its "name") when you're looking through results.
I think you're right though. Hatebears is more widely recognized in Modern, so everything that looks remotely like Hatebears, ends up getting lumped into that deck archetype. The decks are pretty easy to tell apart though. A simple rule of thumb is the presence of Flickerwisp. Any list that has 3-4 copies, is D&T. Any list that has 0-2 copies is Hatebears.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
I think that Hatebears and DnT have about 70-80% overlap, but anyway
I really like the idea of attacking the opponents mana base while taxing. If only there were more ways... What do you think about Fulminator Mages main in a more black build? Along with Arbiter + GQ it seems nice.
In general the problem with modern is, that if the game goes longer, and it often does, then attacking the mana base isn't it. While in legacy you just destroy your opponent in modern you often just make the game longer but they still will drop a land every turn...
I really like the way the WB lists are going, but somehow I think that Hierarchs and maybe Smiters are just too good. If you have no Vial you maybe at least have a Hierarch and also, if you have both you can Vial in the Hierarch when having 1 counter. In the BW build from the SCG event there was no creature for one mana at all, that's kind of ineffeicient if you have no Vial in your opening 7. So, maybe GW is the way to go?
Playing something like Arbiter into GQ or Path in addition with Thalia sometimes feels like playing legacy... at least in the first few turns.
I wish they would respect the Death and Taxes archetype but I'll agree that the two have a huge similar card pool (in green/white). I don't like fulminator. I wanted him to be good but he just doesn't do enough. The fact that he has to die for his ability makes him a bit lack luster and on top of which his stats are pretty poor. Hierarch and Smiter are absolutely great cards. As mentioned previously though, they are two completely different strategies. Calling one better than the other is a bit of a difficult argument to determine the winner. The one drop vs vial argument is incorrect. The percentage of drawing your vial+drop combination is pretty low. barely in double digits. The reasoning for having a one drop should be for aggression combined with a relevant ability. As @Skeet70 stated, building around a one drop when I plan on taking the game longer creates horrific top decks. I already have to draw vials again at some point and having a militant or familiar on top is horrible. My vial free hands now also have more meat and power to them as well. Forcing a hand with counters in it to deal with a lingering souls and then be able to sneak down a combination of thalia/arbiter/avenger/spellsite/*new mystery card* on curve is a huge deal. Definitely don't want to build this deck based on the idea of what legacy functions like. The metas are wildly different and card pool is even more bogus in comparison. If you're a fan of the GW list i would check out @spiderspace and @jendo87 post for list that you might enjoy!
Yeah, you can. They don't use it though most of the time. I had a homebrew I T8d states with last year, wrote "Yslira Pod" as the deck name, they posted it as "Yisan and Jalira".
They give you the option to put a deck name, but it's only used if you're piloting a brew. That makes some sense when you think about it, because it's more useful to call a deck by its archetype (as opposed to its "name") when you're looking through results.
I think you're right though. Hatebears is more widely recognized in Modern, so everything that looks remotely like Hatebears, ends up getting lumped into that deck archetype. The decks are pretty easy to tell apart though. A simple rule of thumb is the presence of Flickerwisp. Any list that has 3-4 copies, is D&T. Any list that has 0-2 copies is Hatebears.
I get that it is useful to name decks according to archtypes in results, but i think that it is not supporting the meaning of creating new decks or even archtypes by doing that. You know, people, who want to see something new won't even look at the lists since it is named e.g. Hatebears instead of Death and Taxes, and they would think about it as it would be nothing special, because they know Hatebears already. So it would be nice that Death and Taxes gets the respect it needs in this regard^^
They can stick to archtypes in results, but should give the real name in deck Reports or special articles around them.
How good is Lingering Souls in a deck with Thalia? That's my major concern with this Lingering Taxes build.
Insanely good. It's really not that hard to cast these two cards in conjunction @dreamcaster. You have to identify curve and value against the deck you are playing against.
In example 1, if playing against nay collected company, you can cast the lingering souls as a priority over thalia. lingering has more reach and value against them. But you can then cast the thalia to curve away against collected company.
In example 2, if you have vial, you can cast the lingering and then vial thalia to still hit both cards on time and with the value locked in. Next turn the Lingering souls flashback cost 3, which is fine considering this deck doesn't do much with its mana this early in the game.
In example 3, you end up just paying 4 mana for lingering souls because turn 2 thalia happened. That's the same curve as a restoration angel and most likely you still had a very relevant turn 3 play away. Decks that run Restoration angel are pushing to reach for 4 mana on time just in the same way but users aren't seeming to see that as a problem.
As I always seem to say, I don't expect anyone to play my brew. I'm totally comfortable with me and Skeet being the oddball DNT players lol. But the card isn't as farfetched as some seem to think it is. I've been putting up phenomenal results with this version and really think outside of the actual lingering souls card, I believe I'm sharing helpful gameplay data? In the last 250+ tournaments I've attended, I've played undefeated all the way to finals (not bragging just pointing out that there is something working here). I also think Souls gives you credibility for other cards (swords of X&Y, Worship, and pontiff).
Proxy it up and test it. Your wildest dreams will come true <3.
-Anthony
In general the problem with modern is, that if the game goes longer, and it often does, then attacking the mana base isn't it. While in legacy you just destroy your opponent in modern you often just make the game longer but they still will drop a land every turn...
I really like the way the WB lists are going, but somehow I think that Hierarchs and maybe Smiters are just too good. If you have no Vial you maybe at least have a Hierarch and also, if you have both you can Vial in the Hierarch when having 1 counter. In the BW build from the SCG event there was no creature for one mana at all, that's kind of ineffeicient if you have no Vial in your opening 7. So, maybe GW is the way to go?
You're correct, attacking the manabase gets weaker as the game goes longer. That's a big part of why both Catmix and I cut to 3 Leonin in our WB lists. The WB deck, more than any other Modern DnT build, almost wants to go pretty long. It wants to win by blocking Smiters and Goyfs with Lingering Souls tokens while swinging with Avenger and Wisp in the air. It uses the taxes to put the opponent on awkward footing and give us time to set up, not to lock them off colors (unless it's sitting right there ;)).
No one drop is along the same line. In the WB list your ideal "one drop" is Mutavault (outside of Vial), and you can drop him turn 1 to play Vial, still getting in on T2 if you don't want to drop a bear, or you want to Vial them in. Instead of running one drops that get in maybe a few damage and are dead cards the rest of the game, it gets rid of them to run more mid-to-late game beaters and value cards that are almost always live. Ripping a Militant or Familiar after the first few turns sucks unless you fully have them on the back foot, ripping Souls/Avenger/Brimaz/Hordechief/Pontiff is pretty much always good after the first few turns even if you're on the back foot.
I think it's stronger than the GW version, but I don't (and I don't think Catmix does either) really feel the need to push it on you guys or anything. I think both of us are actually really happy with where our lists are at, and have been doing very well with them for a pretty long time now. Seems like almost every splash (except maybe blue) is pretty viable in the meta right now, so I haven't been trying to convince people to switch to WB lately :D.
Just thought I'd try to explain some of WBs differences. Catmix probably has additional/different thoughts to mine as well! I wish we could have subforums in this thread for each color splash haha, each one plays pretty differently. Not to mention the differences in card choice drastically affecting playstyle within a color combination in the first place :D.
I really can't agree with a lot of those points. 1 drops are meta specific. Just generally though, I would argue that Judge's Familiar is probably our most competitive one drop. Especially in WB since WB is the most control oriented version of the deck. I would argue that WG and WB are the strongest versions of this deck. I think WG is slightly better simply because they have fastlands and WB does not. I love WB but I can't play as many black cards in it a I'd like to and as I do with G in WG because there aren't fastlands. As far as WU being the weakest, I would disagree. WU is about as good as mono W. WR is the weakest since bolt is best reason to splash but it's counter intuitive with our taxers. Especially with Vryn being added. that's not to say WR is bad. Fastlands there would help too. WU does have them though. But a lot of it is just preference and playstyle. Both for one drops and splashing.
EDIT: I should address the fact that we all do have definite bias (myself included) towards one splash or another. Personally, I've tried every variant and my goal is to push each version to be as competitive as possible. That's where I'm coming from when I suggest cards and say something isn't optimal, but I am aware I do have some bias as well.
Anyway here's my draft, I would love some feedback! And if this counts as a "hatebear deck" and don't belong here, I would like to apologize!
<snip>
I imagine it being stronger against creature matchups and faster than the mono-white version I usually play, though correct me if I'm wrong or if I'm missing something crucial! Cards I'm considering is Tarmogoyf and maybe a few Kitchen Finks.
Regards Finkat
Still looks like DnT to me! Since they're frequently going to get to 4, Tectonic Edge will probably be better than Ghost Quarter in almost all matchups (Infect and Affinity being the exceptions I can think of), so I like your suggestion of cutting some of those for utility lands (I'd suggest manlands though).
What about putting 8 non-creature spell taxers that are weak bodies is making it stronger against creature decks? Seems like this is stronger against two color combo/control like UR Twin, Scapeshift (though no search hate might hurt a lot there), Infect, Storm, Ad Nauseam. Seems weaker than other GW versions against creature decks though. Vryn Wingmare is not nearly as effective in Modern as he is in Legacy. I have a feeling this isn't the right direction to take the GW list, but I'm not totally sure. You'll have to let me know how it goes in testing!
I really can't agree with a lot of those points. 1 drops are meta specific. Just generally though, I would argue that Judge's Familiar is probably our most competitive one drop. Especially in WB since WB is the most control oriented version of the deck. I would argue that WG and WB are the strongest versions of this deck. I think WG is slightly better simply because they have fastlands and WB does not. I love WB but I can't play as many black cards in it a I'd like to and as I do with G in WG because there aren't fastlands. As far as WU being the weakest, I would disagree. WU is about as good as mono W. WR is the weakest since bolt is best reason to splash but it's counter intuitive with our taxers. Especially with Vryn being added. that's not to say WR is bad. Fastlands there would help too. WU does have them though. But a lot of it is just preference and playstyle. Both for one drops and splashing.
EDIT: I should address the fact that we all do have definite bias (myself included) towards one splash or another. Personally, I've tried every variant and my goal is to push each version to be as competitive as possible. That's where I'm coming from when I suggest cards and say something isn't optimal, but I am aware I do have some bias as well.
That's all right, I'm not looking for agreement necessarily :D. We definitely have a difference in opinion here though haha. I've just never actually gotten value out of Familiar, other than when playing a list with Anafenza. Trading with a Lingering Souls token was just so bad. The only time I actually got counter value out of it was when using it with vial, and then I was trading a card out of my hand to stop a Serum Visions or something. If it was non-creature spell then maybe, because at least then it could stop Amulet early.
In WB I way prefer getting in early damage with Mutavaults but otherwise having just better lategame threats that have advantage built in. It made all the Twin and Grixis matches almost a bye, even with Kommand, because they just can't efficiently 2-1 me like they could with other DnT lists I tried. Especially when a random late flashbacked Souls with a Sword could hold back their Tasigur or whatever while getting all my creatures back to hand. The value I get out of the cards I'm playing instead of a one drop is much higher than the value of said one drop. Obviously all of this is hard to empirically prove and includes bias, but I know I for one am never going back to a WB list with any of the current 1 drops.
Arbiter + ghost quarter/path is just too good for our deck to pass up. Arbiter is less of a dead card when you have hiearch and pridemage since he can attack through a lot of the stuff with exalted triggers. Why not just take out the 3 restos and one pridemage to put arbiter back in?
When it's bad its a 2/2 for 2 that might get us a 0 downside pte, when its good it wins the game on its own.
So the biggest issue I see with this is PtE. Essentially, they are going to get a land every time you use it. That's pretty counter-intuitive with taxers even if they are doing good work against a mostly noncreature deck. If that's the direction you want to take the deck, you absolutely need some other form of removal. Personally, I don't think 4 wingmare is the way to go at all.
It's too bad you got knocked out there. You did put up some good info though. While I disagree with a lot of the choices you've made in WB (lingering and Serra), it is cool to see WB put up some results between you and skeet. I've been testing a version of WB recently and I decided to put 2 orzhov pontiff main and I've actually been really impressed. There are so many creature decks right now and it can actually give us a fighting chance (I'm thinking elves coco in particular). It has worked a few times as an attack deterrent because of haunt and it also has given me a way to do a mini overrun and pull out a surprise win. With lingering, it might be even better. I'd recommend it to anybody running WB right now. I'm aware that classically for WB, it and tidehollow sculler are viewed as the reasons to splash (both are in my list), but I haven't seen anybody run them in a while and pontiff in particular seems super relevant right now so I thought I'd give y'all a reminder.
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
My closing record at Washington was 6-1-2 (2 intentional draws). Meaning my only loss was in top 8.
Side note: burrenton forge-tender is a house against griselshoalbrand. Borygomos can't throw lands at you if you sac bft before he's put into play. They'll the. Have to discard down with not enough cards to finish playing magic.
-Anthony (from here out I guess !)
Ps: spiderspace, did you see the disrespect! They called me hatebears too!
WWModern Death And Taxes (w/ Militia Bugler) (JUL '19)
GWModern Maverick (JUL '19)
WBCatmix on Twitch!
WWCatmix on Youtube
I wouldn't take this one personally.
I'm pretty sure SCG thinks Hatebears and D&T are the same deck. I'm don't think I've ever seen them properly report a list as having been Modern D&T. Maybe it's all a conspiracy to keep us labeled a tier 3 deck: we win and Hatebears gets the credit.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
I ended up going 2-1.
Match 1: Burn
Game 1: I dismantled him by going Hierarch, Arbiter + GQ, Thalia, Wingmare.
SBing
+4 Forge-Tender
+2 Spellskite
+1 Thalia
+1 Wingmare
+1 Scavenging Ooze
+1 Qasali Pridemage
-4 AEther Vial
-1 Mangara
-1 Dismember
-3 Serra Avenger
-1 Flickerwisp
Game 2 I was able to play a turn 1 Forge-Tender into a turn 2 Spellskite but he ran over me with his 2x Goblin Guide, 3x Swiftspear into multiple Lava Spike hand.
Game 3 I traded off some of my creatures and used double forge-tender to protect my scooze and eventually won with a 7/7 scooze. I was at 4 life.
(2-1)
My opponent had some very good draws with an opening goblin guide every game (2x in two of the games) but this is a pretty favorable matchup for my build.
Match 2: Affinity
Game 1: We went back and forth trading resources and I eventually got him in a situation where the play was to sac everything to to ravager and onto a vault skirge to stay alive/win the race. I had two draw steps to basically win the game (path, qasali, flickerwisp all won the game and all my flying creatures were redraws since they blocked for a turn) but I ended up drawing a vial and a land and loss a close game.
My SB plan is that I keep both Vials and Stony Silence in on the play and live with the nonbo (since vial + avenger is fantastic in thsi matchup) but take out the vials on the draw since they are too slow.
SBing
+3 Stony Silence
+1 Qasali Pridemage
+1 Vryn Wingmare
-4 Leonin Arbiter
-1 Mangara
Game 2: Serra Avenger after a turn 1 vial start is incredibly strong. I am able to save it from a galvanic blast with a flickerwisp and he whipflares a flickerwisp and wingmare. But Serra Avenger with exalted is too much for him and he dies.
Sbing
-4 AEther Vial
+1 Scavenging Ooze
+1 Thali, Guardian of Thraben
+2 Spellskite
Serra Avenger is a bit slow on the draw and without vials but they are a house once they are in play so I kept them in anyways. Could be a mistake.
Game 3: I mulligan a hand of Noble Hierarch, Flickerwisp, Serra Avenger and 4 lands which 1 of them were a ghost quarter (I am pretty sure this hand is just too slow since I need to top deck to do anything outside of hierarch into wisp). I peeked at the top 2 and both were lands...yea yea results orientated. My new 6 had a Stony Silence, Hierarch, 2 lands, Qasali Pridemage, Thalia. I played out hierarch and he galvanic blast it on his turn 2 and he had an early signal pest and vault skirge. I played my Stony Silence vs. his opening hand of double darksteel and a spellskite. I end up using pridmage to kill the vault skirge (over teh pest which may or may not of been a mistake but he only had pest and spellskite). He is only dealing 1-3 dmg a turn but I am unable to draw anything useful and miss on 3-4 consecutive draw steps (2nd Stony Silence, a land, hierarch, etc). He plays an etched champion and I respond with a pridemage and am forced to blow it on his freshly drawn plating. I draw two more lands and am dead. I think this game was very winnable but my deck didn't want to cooperate.
(1-2)
Match 3: Esper Control
Game 1: I have an opening hand of GQ x2, Mindcensor, Flickerwisp, Vial, 2 more lands. On turn 4 I double strip mine him and he stuck on 1 land. I drew another GQ and Tectonic Edge and kept him under 3-4 lands the entire game with a full grip that he could barely cast but out of 16 total cards seen, I drew 12 lands (4 spells being vial, wisp, mindcensor and arbiter). This game should of been an easy win but it just didn't happen. Lingering Souls and Verdict on his side was enough for me to scoop.
SBing
+1 Thalia
+1 Wingmare
+1 Scavenging Ooze
-3 Path
I saw collonade, souls and snap as his only creatures. So I only kept in a single path and dismember.
Game 2: I went turn 1 Hierarch into Arbiter + GQ into Thalia into Wingmare with another GQ mixed in somewhere and it was over before it started. He was able to play a Tasigur.
SBing
+2 Mirran Crusader
+1 Path
-3 Qasali Pridemage
In response to him having black delve creatures.
Game 3: This was another pretty slanted game but it was a combination of Thalia, Wingmare and Scooze (played a scooze and ate his souls after he tapped out to play it and it kept his snaps at bay). Tec edge was pretty great as well to keep him on 3-4 mana and leaving a verdict stranded in hand (which cost 6 mana).
(2-1)
I really like my current build and I am looking forward to playing it at this weekend's PPTQ! I can't wait to finish foiling it out!
Try using this for a working search. I don't think the upside of Simian Spirit Guide is worth how often it's going to just be a dead card (as well as card disadvantage). Even against those decks where it could be backbreaking, it could almost as easily just get burned right away, or they could just play a basic. I honestly like Leonin most when I have a Path or GC ready to go to make sure I get value out of him (other than forcing them to have some removal spell/basics in the first few turns, which they usually will).
I imagined Tunnel Ignus + Arbiter as being a "damned if you do, damned if you don't". They're both sides of the same coin, getting value off fetches, GC, and Path, they just do it in opposite ways. That doesn't necessarily weaken either of them IMO, just makes the opponent need two removal spells. If both are out, bolting Leonin in response to a GC isn't as much of a blowout, that's for sure.
I'm off that list though anyways, I don't think the extra direct damage taxers and bolts are the reason to be in red, I think it's the extra pressure you can put on their manabase.
Death and Taxes Videos
Traproot Graphics
Modern:
Fateseal Control | Current Version on TappedOut
Modern Death and Taxes | Current Version on TappedOut
Bant Tempo | Current Version on TappedOut
Even in the most extreme case, WG Hatebears and WG D&T share about 40-50% of the same nonland cards. But of course, the other 50-60% of the cards make the decks play totally differently.
Honestly, I'm not sure why SCG can't seem to tell the difference between Modern Hatebears and Modern D&T. For comparison, in Legacy, Sneak and Show and OmniTell share approximately the same percentage of nonland cards, but no one at SCG thinks they're the same deck.
The irony of looking at Catmix's list and calling it "BW Hatebears" is that I haven't seen a competitive BW Hatebear list since the banning of Deathrite Shaman. I mean, there was this one deck in February called BW Hatebears, piloted by some guy named "spiderspace"...
That deck was actually piloted by Catmix, so maybe he can comment on this.
WG and WB D&T are two different decks, unless of course, you're running Junk taxes. The WB and WG versions curve out slightly differently.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
You're correct, attacking the manabase gets weaker as the game goes longer. That's a big part of why both Catmix and I cut to 3 Leonin in our WB lists. The WB deck, more than any other Modern DnT build, almost wants to go pretty long. It wants to win by blocking Smiters and Goyfs with Lingering Souls tokens while swinging with Avenger and Wisp in the air. It uses the taxes to put the opponent on awkward footing and give us time to set up, not to lock them off colors (unless it's sitting right there ;)).
No one drop is along the same line. In the WB list your ideal "one drop" is Mutavault (outside of Vial), and you can drop him turn 1 to play Vial, still getting in on T2 if you don't want to drop a bear, or you want to Vial them in. Instead of running one drops that get in maybe a few damage and are dead cards the rest of the game, it gets rid of them to run more mid-to-late game beaters and value cards that are almost always live. Ripping a Militant or Familiar after the first few turns sucks unless you fully have them on the back foot, ripping Souls/Avenger/Brimaz/Hordechief/Pontiff is pretty much always good after the first few turns even if you're on the back foot.
I think it's stronger than the GW version, but I don't (and I don't think Catmix does either) really feel the need to push it on you guys or anything. I think both of us are actually really happy with where our lists are at, and have been doing very well with them for a pretty long time now. Seems like almost every splash (except maybe blue) is pretty viable in the meta right now, so I haven't been trying to convince people to switch to WB lately :D.
Just thought I'd try to explain some of WBs differences. Catmix probably has additional/different thoughts to mine as well! I wish we could have subforums in this thread for each color splash haha, each one plays pretty differently. Not to mention the differences in card choice drastically affecting playstyle within a color combination in the first place :D.
Death and Taxes Videos
Traproot Graphics
Modern:
Fateseal Control | Current Version on TappedOut
Modern Death and Taxes | Current Version on TappedOut
Bant Tempo | Current Version on TappedOut
Maybe Hatebears is a more widely recognized term than Death and Taxes. But i also don't like that D&T is mixed up with that Hatebears "regime", since in my opinion Death % Taxes sounds way more awesome
I haven't attended a PPTQ or anything yet, aren't you able to give your deck a name as you sign in for the tournament or something like that?
Death and Taxes Videos
Traproot Graphics
Modern:
Fateseal Control | Current Version on TappedOut
Modern Death and Taxes | Current Version on TappedOut
Bant Tempo | Current Version on TappedOut
They give you the option to put a deck name, but it's only used if you're piloting a brew. That makes some sense when you think about it, because it's more useful to call a deck by its archetype (as opposed to its "name") when you're looking through results.
I think you're right though. Hatebears is more widely recognized in Modern, so everything that looks remotely like Hatebears, ends up getting lumped into that deck archetype. The decks are pretty easy to tell apart though. A simple rule of thumb is the presence of Flickerwisp. Any list that has 3-4 copies, is D&T. Any list that has 0-2 copies is Hatebears.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
I wish they would respect the Death and Taxes archetype but I'll agree that the two have a huge similar card pool (in green/white). I don't like fulminator. I wanted him to be good but he just doesn't do enough. The fact that he has to die for his ability makes him a bit lack luster and on top of which his stats are pretty poor. Hierarch and Smiter are absolutely great cards. As mentioned previously though, they are two completely different strategies. Calling one better than the other is a bit of a difficult argument to determine the winner. The one drop vs vial argument is incorrect. The percentage of drawing your vial+drop combination is pretty low. barely in double digits. The reasoning for having a one drop should be for aggression combined with a relevant ability. As @Skeet70 stated, building around a one drop when I plan on taking the game longer creates horrific top decks. I already have to draw vials again at some point and having a militant or familiar on top is horrible. My vial free hands now also have more meat and power to them as well. Forcing a hand with counters in it to deal with a lingering souls and then be able to sneak down a combination of thalia/arbiter/avenger/spellsite/*new mystery card* on curve is a huge deal. Definitely don't want to build this deck based on the idea of what legacy functions like. The metas are wildly different and card pool is even more bogus in comparison. If you're a fan of the GW list i would check out @spiderspace and @jendo87 post for list that you might enjoy!
Good Luck,
-Anthony
WWModern Death And Taxes (w/ Militia Bugler) (JUL '19)
GWModern Maverick (JUL '19)
WBCatmix on Twitch!
WWCatmix on Youtube
Thats disrespectful :/
I get that it is useful to name decks according to archtypes in results, but i think that it is not supporting the meaning of creating new decks or even archtypes by doing that. You know, people, who want to see something new won't even look at the lists since it is named e.g. Hatebears instead of Death and Taxes, and they would think about it as it would be nothing special, because they know Hatebears already. So it would be nice that Death and Taxes gets the respect it needs in this regard^^
They can stick to archtypes in results, but should give the real name in deck Reports or special articles around them.
GU Infect | x Affinity | RWG Naya Burn | W Death and Taxes | U Merfolk | BURG BTL Scapeshift | WUUW Titan | R Goblins | BURGW Suicide Zoo
Death and Taxes Videos
Traproot Graphics
Modern:
Fateseal Control | Current Version on TappedOut
Modern Death and Taxes | Current Version on TappedOut
Bant Tempo | Current Version on TappedOut
Insanely good. It's really not that hard to cast these two cards in conjunction @dreamcaster. You have to identify curve and value against the deck you are playing against.
In example 1, if playing against nay collected company, you can cast the lingering souls as a priority over thalia. lingering has more reach and value against them. But you can then cast the thalia to curve away against collected company.
In example 2, if you have vial, you can cast the lingering and then vial thalia to still hit both cards on time and with the value locked in. Next turn the Lingering souls flashback cost 3, which is fine considering this deck doesn't do much with its mana this early in the game.
In example 3, you end up just paying 4 mana for lingering souls because turn 2 thalia happened. That's the same curve as a restoration angel and most likely you still had a very relevant turn 3 play away. Decks that run Restoration angel are pushing to reach for 4 mana on time just in the same way but users aren't seeming to see that as a problem.
As I always seem to say, I don't expect anyone to play my brew. I'm totally comfortable with me and Skeet being the oddball DNT players lol. But the card isn't as farfetched as some seem to think it is. I've been putting up phenomenal results with this version and really think outside of the actual lingering souls card, I believe I'm sharing helpful gameplay data? In the last 250+ tournaments I've attended, I've played undefeated all the way to finals (not bragging just pointing out that there is something working here). I also think Souls gives you credibility for other cards (swords of X&Y, Worship, and pontiff).
Proxy it up and test it. Your wildest dreams will come true <3.
-Anthony
WWModern Death And Taxes (w/ Militia Bugler) (JUL '19)
GWModern Maverick (JUL '19)
WBCatmix on Twitch!
WWCatmix on Youtube
I really can't agree with a lot of those points. 1 drops are meta specific. Just generally though, I would argue that Judge's Familiar is probably our most competitive one drop. Especially in WB since WB is the most control oriented version of the deck. I would argue that WG and WB are the strongest versions of this deck. I think WG is slightly better simply because they have fastlands and WB does not. I love WB but I can't play as many black cards in it a I'd like to and as I do with G in WG because there aren't fastlands. As far as WU being the weakest, I would disagree. WU is about as good as mono W. WR is the weakest since bolt is best reason to splash but it's counter intuitive with our taxers. Especially with Vryn being added. that's not to say WR is bad. Fastlands there would help too. WU does have them though. But a lot of it is just preference and playstyle. Both for one drops and splashing.
EDIT: I should address the fact that we all do have definite bias (myself included) towards one splash or another. Personally, I've tried every variant and my goal is to push each version to be as competitive as possible. That's where I'm coming from when I suggest cards and say something isn't optimal, but I am aware I do have some bias as well.
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
Still looks like DnT to me! Since they're frequently going to get to 4, Tectonic Edge will probably be better than Ghost Quarter in almost all matchups (Infect and Affinity being the exceptions I can think of), so I like your suggestion of cutting some of those for utility lands (I'd suggest manlands though).
What about putting 8 non-creature spell taxers that are weak bodies is making it stronger against creature decks? Seems like this is stronger against two color combo/control like UR Twin, Scapeshift (though no search hate might hurt a lot there), Infect, Storm, Ad Nauseam. Seems weaker than other GW versions against creature decks though. Vryn Wingmare is not nearly as effective in Modern as he is in Legacy. I have a feeling this isn't the right direction to take the GW list, but I'm not totally sure. You'll have to let me know how it goes in testing!
Death and Taxes Videos
Traproot Graphics
Modern:
Fateseal Control | Current Version on TappedOut
Modern Death and Taxes | Current Version on TappedOut
Bant Tempo | Current Version on TappedOut
That's all right, I'm not looking for agreement necessarily :D. We definitely have a difference in opinion here though haha. I've just never actually gotten value out of Familiar, other than when playing a list with Anafenza. Trading with a Lingering Souls token was just so bad. The only time I actually got counter value out of it was when using it with vial, and then I was trading a card out of my hand to stop a Serum Visions or something. If it was non-creature spell then maybe, because at least then it could stop Amulet early.
In WB I way prefer getting in early damage with Mutavaults but otherwise having just better lategame threats that have advantage built in. It made all the Twin and Grixis matches almost a bye, even with Kommand, because they just can't efficiently 2-1 me like they could with other DnT lists I tried. Especially when a random late flashbacked Souls with a Sword could hold back their Tasigur or whatever while getting all my creatures back to hand. The value I get out of the cards I'm playing instead of a one drop is much higher than the value of said one drop. Obviously all of this is hard to empirically prove and includes bias, but I know I for one am never going back to a WB list with any of the current 1 drops.
Death and Taxes Videos
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Modern:
Fateseal Control | Current Version on TappedOut
Modern Death and Taxes | Current Version on TappedOut
Bant Tempo | Current Version on TappedOut
When it's bad its a 2/2 for 2 that might get us a 0 downside pte, when its good it wins the game on its own.
So the biggest issue I see with this is PtE. Essentially, they are going to get a land every time you use it. That's pretty counter-intuitive with taxers even if they are doing good work against a mostly noncreature deck. If that's the direction you want to take the deck, you absolutely need some other form of removal. Personally, I don't think 4 wingmare is the way to go at all.
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance