I'm trying this out. It's a build more based around the flicker tricks. It's also 61 cards. 23 lands feels like so many when you run Vial and you curve out at 4, and 22 Lands just doesn't feel like enough. 61 Cards lowers that ratio ever so slightly, so I think it's fine.
The sentiment was made that "Cloudshift doesn't do enough," but I disagree. At worst, it saves your creature from a removal spell. At best, it allows you more chances to do the ridiculous things that we all know the deck can do with flickerwisp and Resto Angel, but for only 1 mana. With Thalia, it's 2, but that's still a cheap price to pay for an instant speed 3/3 First Strike, or an exile effect from flickerwisp, or an exile permanently with Mangara, or exiling TWO cards with Tidehollow Sculler.
Also I don't think this was really touched on in the primer (I looked at the parts pertaining to Arbiter and didn't see it) but paying the 2 to ignore Leonin Arbiter's ability is a special action, meaning you can only do it when you have priority, not while a spell is resolving. The relevance of that is that your opponent has to pay the 2 mana before their search ability or spell resolves. That means you can respond by cloudshifting or resto angeling your arbiter. Then he becomes a new object, and they have to pay another 2 to ignore the new effect. Cloudshift makes this an actual reality a decent amount of times. Just food for thought.
Huh. Did not know that about arbiter. I'll be sure to update with that info. That's a rather off way for it to work haha.
Anyway on the subject of cloudshift, there just too many other things I wanna be doing with my mana. Doesn't make the cut. I suppose if you insist on running Mangara it makes more sense, but seeing as I'd advise against that as well I can't say there's much grounds for supporting cloudshift. I rather have Akroma or pontiff there instead personally.
Huh. Did not know that about arbiter. I'll be sure to update with that info. That's a rather off way for it to work haha.
Anyway on the subject of cloudshift, there just too many other things I wanna be doing with my mana. Doesn't make the cut. I suppose if you insist on running Mangara it makes more sense, but seeing as I'd advise against that as well I can't say there's much grounds for supporting cloudshift. I rather have Akroma or pontiff there instead personally.
It's a 1 mana way to flip Akroma. What's not to like?
Akroma actually slipped my mind. I ran her in mono white a while back. I might slip her back in as a 1 of if I can find a spot.
Maybe it's bad. I want to at least try it and have it proven to me through my own testing. Mangara is good enough in legacy. I don't see why it is suddenly worse in modern. Sure we can't run Karakas, and that's a big part of it, but Cloudshift takes that place well enough while also allowing for so many other good interactions. It's "slow", yes, but legacy is way faster than Modern is, and it still sees play there. I think that if it's good enough for Legacy with Karakas, it's good enough in modern with our other options.
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PTQ semi finalist list. SUFFOCATION side!? Can someone explain because I am beyond lost on that one.
Edit: mistranslation from French of "choke". Sideboard makes much more sense now, my bad haha. They're not splashing blue with heirarches to cast a sub par blue hate instant hahahaha.
Maybe it's bad. I want to at least try it and have it proven to me through my own testing. Mangara is good enough in legacy. I don't see why it is suddenly worse in modern. Sure we can't run Karakas, and that's a big part of it, but Cloudshift takes that place well enough while also allowing for so many other good interactions. It's "slow", yes, but legacy is way faster than Modern is, and it still sees play there. I think that if it's good enough for Legacy with Karakas, it's good enough in modern with our other options.
I'm honestly pretty clueless about Legacy, so this is me doing the parrot thing, but isn't it the case that while Legacy is a faster format, it isn't as removal heavy as Modern?
Either way, Karakas is a huge deal for Mangara. We don't have a reusable and practically free way to save her from her own ability. Out of all the times you play her, if you subtract all the times she eats removal, and the times you don't have a Vial at three and a wisp, and the times you don't have a Restoration Angel, the number of times you get to reuse her even once shrinks pretty fast. She's a pretty reliable 1-for-1 with the rare chance of a 2-for-1.
Edit: About Cloudshift.... If you play Flickerwisp/Resto on a Blade Splicer, you gain virtual card advantage because the flicker effect is stapled onto a creature; you get the Flickerwisp/Resto and the extra Golem for the one card that is Flickerwisp/Resto. This is what makes the interaction good. If you Cloudshift your Blade Splicer, you only get one golem token for the one card that is Cloudshift. That's cheap, but there's no virtual card advantage. That's significantly worse, it's just way too fair.
Same thing if you use Cloudshift on Mangara. You get to remove two things for two cards, and you even have to jump through hoops to do so. There's no advantage in that. With Karakas you might get to do it over and over and over again for two cards, one of which is a land that comes into play untapped and taps for mana.
Maybe it's bad. I want to at least try it and have it proven to me through my own testing. Mangara is good enough in legacy. I don't see why it is suddenly worse in modern. Sure we can't run Karakas, and that's a big part of it, but Cloudshift takes that place well enough while also allowing for so many other good interactions. It's "slow", yes, but legacy is way faster than Modern is, and it still sees play there. I think that if it's good enough for Legacy with Karakas, it's good enough in modern with our other options.
I'm honestly pretty clueless about Legacy, so this is me doing the parrot thing, but isn't it the case that while Legacy is a faster format, it isn't as removal heavy as Modern?
Either way, Karakas is a huge deal for Mangara. We don't have a reusable and practically free way to save her from her own ability. Out of all the times you play her, if you subtract all the times she eats removal, and the times you don't have a Vial at three and a wisp, and the times you don't have a Restoration Angel, the number of times you get to reuse her even once shrinks pretty fast. She's a pretty reliable 1-for-1 with the rare chance of a 2-for-1.
Edit: About Cloudshift.... If you play Flickerwisp/Resto on a Blade Splicer, you gain virtual card advantage because the flicker effect is stapled onto a creature; you get the Flickerwisp/Resto and the extra Golem for the one card that is Flickerwisp/Resto. This is what makes the interaction good. If you Cloudshift your Blade Splicer, you only get one golem token for the one card that is Cloudshift. That's cheap, but there's no virtual card advantage. That's significantly worse, it's just way too fair.
Same thing if you use Cloudshift on Mangara. You get to remove two things for two cards, and you even have to jump through hoops to do so. There's no advantage in that. With Karakas you might get to do it over and over and over again for two cards, one of which is a land that comes into play untapped and taps for mana.
Actually, the times I get to 2 for 1 with Mangara far exceed the times I just 1 for 1. The key point I like about Mangara is how flexible he is. If the opponent is mana flooded he hits their precious threats, if they are mana screwed, then even a 1 for 1 on a land is enough.
That being said, I would only play him in mono white because he leads you toward a much slower and controlling build and monowhite allows you to run mutavaults to maintain your threat density.
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My Modern decks: Death and Taxes, Hatebears, Well Oiled Machine, Merfolk, Nyx Wave, Soul Sisters, Stompy, Matyr Proc, Naya Zoo, Robots (I refuse to call it affinity!), Bogles, Kiki Chord
Having been playing mono-white D&T for a while now, I've got a few questions here: How the flip do we beat twin with only 4 Paths as disruption for the combo itself? I don't seem to be fast enough to kill them before they combo off, so I just have the 4 Paths, assuming the opponent is sensible enough to tap the vial with the pentermite/exarch that gets flashed in at EoT, to disrupt them when they do combo off. Any ideas, considering that I can't afford Linvalas for the board? My board is mainly geared towards other stuff, in part because I don't have anything that really helps here (running stony silences, leylines, O-rings, RiPs, a canonist, and I've moved two Riftwatchers to the board now I'm borrowing 4 mindcensors). I rate it as a much worse MU than you guys seem to.
I'm interested to see a lack of Serra Avengers in the prime; is there a reason you don't discuss it? It's not a bad card at all, I find- certainly as worthy of inclusion as Epochrasite, which I think is excellent in the right meta (heavy B/G/jund/junk et al), although serra avenger and epochrasite both fall into the "dumb beater" category that I don't like.
Okay, couple good cards against twin are spellskite, pithing needle, sundering growth, and ghostly prison. A lot of playing again twin is really just pretending you have a path at all times. Most twin players don't combo without protection which helps us a lot. All the cards I named are good in other match ups as well so they aren't as painful to have on board. As a side note, I generally recommend against leyline due to it eating so many side spots while doing little in too few match ups. It really only wins you matches vs burn and as nauseam I suppose. Also most of us have switch from canonist to eidolon of rhetoric since it's resilient in the storm and burn match ups.
Wellllll here's where my bias shines through. I wrote the primer and am quite the well known Serra avenger hater, so he's under the section for 2 cmc creatures NOT to run. The problem is that I only believe in 1-2 beaters per deck, and for them to qualify they have to be high quality, meaning crushing advantage OR really good in common matches. That means hero of bladehold, brimaz, or mirran crusader (Akroma as well if you count her as such) are, in my opinion, the only dumb beater options. Serra does not, also dies to bolt, and is only really worth it if you run swords, which I ALSO recommend against. There are just way too many better cards to be putting in her place, she's a left over vestige of the legacy deck, only held on to for traditions sake.
Epochrasite there is an argument for. I like that it's resilient for long match ups and the mono white build struggles to find good creatures with 4 power, which is necessary in the jund match up. There's jotun grunt for that slot as well, but jotun DOES have that grave clause which can make things awkward.
Anyway, if I missed anything, my opinions of all cards mentioned are in the primer. I'm sure havrekjex will show up eventually and defend his precious Serra avenger, so if you want a positive out look on her wait for that hahaha. (I swear hating on Serra is like a bar signal for him)
Having been playing mono-white D&T for a while now, I've got a few questions here: How the flip do we beat twin with only 4 Paths as disruption for the combo itself? I don't seem to be fast enough to kill them before they combo off, so I just have the 4 Paths, assuming the opponent is sensible enough to tap the vial with the pentermite/exarch that gets flashed in at EoT, to disrupt them when they do combo off. Any ideas, considering that I can't afford Linvalas for the board? My board is mainly geared towards other stuff, in part because I don't have anything that really helps here (running stony silences, leylines, O-rings, RiPs, a canonist, and I've moved two Riftwatchers to the board now I'm borrowing 4 mindcensors). I rate it as a much worse MU than you guys seem to.
I'm interested to see a lack of Serra Avengers in the prime; is there a reason you don't discuss it? It's not a bad card at all, I find- certainly as worthy of inclusion as Epochrasite, which I think is excellent in the right meta (heavy B/G/jund/junk et al), although serra avenger and epochrasite both fall into the "dumb beater" category that I don't like.
Oh, and to chime in on hushwing: I may drop some in the board for twin. Depends if I can get anything better, really- Linvala is a better card, clearly, but also expensive
I also play monowhite, and game 1 on the draw vs twin is very hard. A turn 1 aether vial is key. Thalia really helps slow them down (both their cantrips and making twin cost 5) and you need to focus on the land denial package, especially keeping them off red mana. Things get easier post board obviously. I really like spellskites since they serve double duty against many other decks like boggles, infect, burn, and scapeshift. You can also try ghostly prison, suppression field, and auriok champions (although they are pricey too but give broad uses against burn, aggro decks, and pod). It really plays out like a tempo game. You need to whittle down their life anyway possible and keep them off two red.
Regarding Serra Avenger, she was basically made obsolete by Restoration Angel
My Modern decks: Death and Taxes, Hatebears, Well Oiled Machine, Merfolk, Nyx Wave, Soul Sisters, Stompy, Matyr Proc, Naya Zoo, Robots (I refuse to call it affinity!), Bogles, Kiki Chord
I also play monowhite, and game 1 on the draw vs twin is very hard. A turn 1 aether vial is key. Thalia really helps slow them down (both their cantrips and making twin cost 5) and you need to focus on the land denial package, especially keeping them off red mana. Things get easier post board obviously. I really like spellskites since they serve double duty against many other decks like boggles, infect, burn, and scapeshift. You can also try ghostly prison, suppression field, and auriok champions (although they are pricey too but give broad uses against burn, aggro decks, and pod). It really plays out like a tempo game. You need to whittle down their life anyway possible and keep them off two red.
Excellent, thanks. I'm thinking/hoping that the Mindcensors will help a bunch here- suppression field seems narrow. Does it hit any other decks? Pod, I guess? It's certainly an option for my board, just a shame that the arbiter is a special ability and thus not taxed by suppression. May end up dropping the two avengers (who I don't hate, but don't really like), throwing the riftwatchers back in the main, and that frees up the suppression field SB option.
Suppresion field also helps vs affinity and adds another tax vs fetchlands. Of course it also taxes your aether vials. That being said, I've had suppresion field played against me, and it was very easy to play around. Paying 2 to drop a 3 drop with vial is still excellent if your opponent is also being taxed.
I also forgot to mention Celestial Purge. Exiles kiki and twin at instant speed. Pretty narrow card, but it also is good against jund (liliana and bob), storm (ascension and electromancer), and any red based aggro (zoo/gruul and red deck wins). Also has targets in Melira pod, so not too bad an option.
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I also run only 3 Thalias. Even with 3, I sometimes get stuck with an extra in hand. I play Judges Familiar main with a singleton 8.5 tails, which do a great job protecting her. Post board I have spellskites, mark of asylum, and forge-tenders to keep her alive.
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I think 4 Tahlia are not nessecary. I play a BW-list and 3 are enough for me. Because she is Legendary, you only need one or two per game (Third one was always a dead card when i drew her). Grunts are very well, especialy when you have to face a lot of garveyard-based strategy. But i think 2 Main and one in sideboard are a better split. For those 2 cards, you can play Restro Angels und keep your Stonecloaker main.
I run just 2 in my BW list an it runs just fine! I think it really just depends on what you think you're gonna face. 2 IS probably low, it just doesn't do as much work as you'd think for me.
1st match: melira pod vs one of the shop tenders. (fully busted with fetches, voices and all. The actual net deck.)
Grindy, but I get there thanks to beat down and bolt reach first game. Second game, he missplayed with pontif to kill my blade splicer and a flicker wisp, but I flashed a stonecloacker to protect wisp. He could have haunted and then sac the haunted creature to kill my stonecloacker then, but he didn't, so I get to attack with my flyer and to flicker his bird that was on the way, to deal the last points of damages.
Notes: leonin arbiter is stellar, and LD versus gavony township is key. Also, and this goes on for the next matchs, bolt is better than path early turns, because I can actually tax them harder with leonin and LD.
2nd match: eternal ruse
This deck is wacky. I mean, it can lock you with counters and eternal witness, but aether vial is just the perfect technology against that.
Also he got flooded, and my beat down is just faster.
3rd match another pod player (fully upgraded pod with fetches, voices, scooze and all again)
In both games I just taxed him very hard with thalia and leonin, I even flashed my singleton aven mindcensor in response to a pod activation, to proactively shock him (phyrexian mana) and time walk him. I sided in miran crusader who did dealt 8 damage before dying to his restoration angel, so I was happy with it, but I also casted a magus of the moon and was very unimpressed with it: it turned live his fecthes while I had leonin and aven mindcensor, so I finnaly atacked with him, offering him a trade, but it was not the blow out I was expecting from them. Also it taxed me too, because of the fiend hunter I had in hands, and the non-basic white Producer I had.
Note on cards: fiend hunter + flicker is neat. I still like mangara versatility and I have a lot of ways to protect him in my list. Iroas is a nice combat trick, I have tested a lot of cards in that spot, and for now I like him. Magus of the moon was unimpressive in this FNM. For him to realy shine, you need to have a vial out, and to land him early to mana color screw them. So it is a bit unreliable. Bolt is better than path in many situation, in my list, IMHO: I want to tax them, and the only way to do that is to bolt their turn one bird/noble. Which I did almost everygame. Pathing a dork, is not quite as good. To get rid of a kitchen kinks or anything biger, I still have 4 exile effects in mangara and fiends later in the game.
I do beleive my list is cute, and can seem unreliable I do not recommend it, it is more fragile than classic mono white or Wg. But I am Wr at heart, and I want to play my pet decks my own way. Open to critics, of course!
So how do you resist the urge to just jam Kiki-jiki in there with the combo and all the synergy?
Haven't thought about it too much because I just throw my lands away constantly haha. seems a bit unrealistic to get to 5 mana, with 3 red sources. But it could be interesting to have access to an infinite combo, and all other tricks, like a mangara with haste every turn seems unfair (if it stays on the field).
Thanks for the idea!
As a one or two off it's perfectly reasonable! Lots of mono white decks still run baneslayer.
Wasn't convinced on the suppression fields; a lot of the time they were just not what I wanted, in large part because they don't beat. Got to be careful not to put in too much stuff and take out too many threats. Probably still worth running from the board for stuff like Twin.
Not a great day for me overall; 3 wins and 5 losses, including a loss to RG tron (!!!). Turns out that losing the dice roll means that they get tron before you can get hate down, and you just don't see your six LD whatsoever. Pretty sure he just got lucky starting hands, though- my G1 starter was good against non-tron, but just sucked against T3 tron. G3 ended up with him natures claiming his own topdecked artifact to stay on one life, before topdecking a land to Emrakul. Awesome match, that one. Overall, some bad luck on mana (floods all over the place), some of which I attribute to the deck check ("Here, have your deck back all nicely sorted, and you have 3 minutes to shuffle and present!"). I would have been much happier with BG based decks as opposed to the UR heavier stuff I say. Best moment of the day was vialing in a flickerwisp in response to a storm player getting an active ascension. Will put up a decklist and tournament report when I'm awake.
Sorry man, sometimes it just happens. I look forward to the report! Do you think you just kept the wrong hands? It's always a tough call for this deck. With so little draw, strong opening hands are key. Sometimes you got mull a decent hand to just get that hate.
Just a note- played a ptq today with a GW aggro stompy list- included a lot of d and t suspects, but no anti search stuff. Ended with a positive record, losing my last to go 4-3 (two losses were 2-1, one 2-0). The thing I wanted to note was how relatively poor thalia was, and how ridiculously good two cards were- jotun grunt and even better soltari priest I literally lost zero games where I cast priest, beating usa, junk, twin and jund when he resolved.......I was not the only player with them too. Grunt was nuts.
Ok my deck had rancors and honor the pures, but the priest was insanely good as most matches end up with grund and air stalls.
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Just a note- played a ptq today with a GW aggro stompy list- included a lot of d and t suspects, but no anti search stuff. Ended with a positive record, losing my last to go 4-3 (two losses were 2-1, one 2-0). The thing I wanted to note was how relatively poor thalia was, and how ridiculously good two cards were- jotun grunt and even better soltari priest I literally lost zero games where I cast priest, beating usa, junk, twin and jund when he resolved.......I was not the only player with them too. Grunt was nuts.
Ok my deck had rancors and honor the pures, but the priest was insanely good as most matches end up with grund and air stalls.
Exactly why I featured jotun grunt in the meta mind portion of the primer haha. He's FANTASTIC right now, especially with junk growing in style. You ran soltari priest with no swords? Interesting! Can I see the list? I'm not sure he's right for DnT but then again I never really considered him.
As a side note, I'm still dead set on pack rat but not certain on the number. CONSIDERING either a 3/1 or 2/2 split with bob since it helps supports and lord knows the deck could use draw. I am concerned about lifegain though and don't have enough experience playing lists with bob.
After testing with Cloudshift a bunch, I definitely see why it's not great. I just wanted to see for myself.
I played in the PTQ today (yesterday) and I just got land flooded every game. I went 1-2 and dropped. Needless to say I was frustrated. I drew so many lands and so many Aether Vials. I lost to U/W Gifts for god's sake.
I really like that list a lot. I love the focus on the synergies and intricacies of the deck. After tweaked and all that, this is what I am currently working with.
Judge's Familiar is starting to feel really awkward to me. In some matchups it's great, but sometimes it's bad. In other matchups it's bad, but sometimes great. Since it's not 4, it's not always in your opening hand, and that's when you want to see it, but running 4 means you'll see it more often throughout the game. I am thinking about cutting it for something more consistent, or with more synergy. I'm thinking either slotting Pack Rat back in, or running some number of Stonecloaker or Whitemane Lion or Jotun Grunt. I like Jotun Grunt because he's big and cheap, but he doesn't really feel like he fits the deck's plan very well. I like Stonecloaker because he doubles as grave hate and can randomly win your fights against Tarmogoyf or Reanimator Strategies, and is very synergistic with Mangara, and our ETB effects, but our 3 drop spot seems crowded. I like Whitemane Lion. He's cheap, effective, synergistic, but is very lackluster and "vanilla" feeling. Pack Rat is great because he avoids flooding, and is actually useful in multiples.
So many choices. I love this deck for that reason. There are so many varieties of this deck that everyone plays their own sort of "flavor", and most of them are good.
Edit: Has anyone tried Crucible of Worlds? The old Crucible + Strip Mine lock...And with Pack rat you can discard lands and then play them. Just brainstorming here...
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Just a note- played a ptq today with a GW aggro stompy list- included a lot of d and t suspects, but no anti search stuff. Ended with a positive record, losing my last to go 4-3 (two losses were 2-1, one 2-0). The thing I wanted to note was how relatively poor thalia was, and how ridiculously good two cards were- jotun grunt and even better soltari priest I literally lost zero games where I cast priest, beating usa, junk, twin and jund when he resolved.......I was not the only player with them too. Grunt was nuts.
Ok my deck had rancors and honor the pures, but the priest was insanely good as most matches end up with grund and air stalls.
Exactly why I featured jotun grunt in the meta mind portion of the primer haha. He's FANTASTIC right now, especially with junk growing in style. You ran soltari priest with no swords? Interesting! Can I see the list? I'm not sure he's right for DnT but then again I never really considered him.
As a side note, I'm still dead set on pack rat but not certain on the number. CONSIDERING either a 3/1 or 2/2 split with bob since it helps supports and lord knows the deck could use draw. I am concerned about lifegain though and don't have enough experience playing lists with bob.
I am happy to post the list, but it really is not d and t, I do not want to be shouted at for posting in the wrong place. If any are reading I really need guidance from a mod as to if the deck should be in GW hatebears or in a new thread (description below) - with no vials, mana dorks, just 21 lands it really is not like gw hatebears. Perhaps deck creation or even budget. It only went 4-3 @ the PTQ, and I only made it last Tuesday (I did not fancy an 8 round ptq with d and t in what would be a jund heavy meta), although my last match I was not playing too well- I wanted to drop at 4-2 but my lift home was still playing.
I used 21 lands inc. 3 manlands and 4 canopies. With rancors, pridemages and honor the pure, so priest went pretty nuts without swords....
I am going to work on the list to sharpen it. I recall a card that forcasted to give shadow that would have really done a job on the 2 jund matches I narrowly lost when they were in the red zone.
On pack rat in bw- I saw a few yesterday, but never played them. They seem to grow in popularity.
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Neat list, I too am enjoying playing the WR flickerwhisp deck.
How have you felt about playing no path to exiles in the main? Has lightning bolt really been that much better for you to not include it? Also have you considered 1-2 copies of Boros Charm? I was having issues with getting the opponent to 4ish life then running out of gas, and I did try the charm for a bit before switching to a single Keldon Megaliths
Has it been worth playing a single mountain? The only time I wished I had it involved ghost quartering my own land, which os probably a terrible idea %99 of the time.
How has Iroas worked out? I opened one and he is currently sitting in my binder. I've been tempted to put him in, but every time I think about it, I tell my self that I would prefer the vigilance and potential for tokens that comes with Heloid.
Finally I saw someone mention Kiki, and I definitely think you would benefit from putting a single copy into the deck. Being able to copy a flickerwhisp on the end step that you vial him in, then doing it again on your next turn can help break through stalled boards, and if you happen to have a resto and him you can just win out of nowhere.
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Huh. Did not know that about arbiter. I'll be sure to update with that info. That's a rather off way for it to work haha.
Anyway on the subject of cloudshift, there just too many other things I wanna be doing with my mana. Doesn't make the cut. I suppose if you insist on running Mangara it makes more sense, but seeing as I'd advise against that as well I can't say there's much grounds for supporting cloudshift. I rather have Akroma or pontiff there instead personally.
It's a 1 mana way to flip Akroma. What's not to like?
Akroma actually slipped my mind. I ran her in mono white a while back. I might slip her back in as a 1 of if I can find a spot.
Maybe it's bad. I want to at least try it and have it proven to me through my own testing. Mangara is good enough in legacy. I don't see why it is suddenly worse in modern. Sure we can't run Karakas, and that's a big part of it, but Cloudshift takes that place well enough while also allowing for so many other good interactions. It's "slow", yes, but legacy is way faster than Modern is, and it still sees play there. I think that if it's good enough for Legacy with Karakas, it's good enough in modern with our other options.
Standard:
Modern:
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Suffocation is french for choke.
I'm honestly pretty clueless about Legacy, so this is me doing the parrot thing, but isn't it the case that while Legacy is a faster format, it isn't as removal heavy as Modern?
Either way, Karakas is a huge deal for Mangara. We don't have a reusable and practically free way to save her from her own ability. Out of all the times you play her, if you subtract all the times she eats removal, and the times you don't have a Vial at three and a wisp, and the times you don't have a Restoration Angel, the number of times you get to reuse her even once shrinks pretty fast. She's a pretty reliable 1-for-1 with the rare chance of a 2-for-1.
Edit: About Cloudshift.... If you play Flickerwisp/Resto on a Blade Splicer, you gain virtual card advantage because the flicker effect is stapled onto a creature; you get the Flickerwisp/Resto and the extra Golem for the one card that is Flickerwisp/Resto. This is what makes the interaction good. If you Cloudshift your Blade Splicer, you only get one golem token for the one card that is Cloudshift. That's cheap, but there's no virtual card advantage. That's significantly worse, it's just way too fair.
Same thing if you use Cloudshift on Mangara. You get to remove two things for two cards, and you even have to jump through hoops to do so. There's no advantage in that. With Karakas you might get to do it over and over and over again for two cards, one of which is a land that comes into play untapped and taps for mana.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
Actually, the times I get to 2 for 1 with Mangara far exceed the times I just 1 for 1. The key point I like about Mangara is how flexible he is. If the opponent is mana flooded he hits their precious threats, if they are mana screwed, then even a 1 for 1 on a land is enough.
That being said, I would only play him in mono white because he leads you toward a much slower and controlling build and monowhite allows you to run mutavaults to maintain your threat density.
Okay, couple good cards against twin are spellskite, pithing needle, sundering growth, and ghostly prison. A lot of playing again twin is really just pretending you have a path at all times. Most twin players don't combo without protection which helps us a lot. All the cards I named are good in other match ups as well so they aren't as painful to have on board. As a side note, I generally recommend against leyline due to it eating so many side spots while doing little in too few match ups. It really only wins you matches vs burn and as nauseam I suppose. Also most of us have switch from canonist to eidolon of rhetoric since it's resilient in the storm and burn match ups.
Wellllll here's where my bias shines through. I wrote the primer and am quite the well known Serra avenger hater, so he's under the section for 2 cmc creatures NOT to run. The problem is that I only believe in 1-2 beaters per deck, and for them to qualify they have to be high quality, meaning crushing advantage OR really good in common matches. That means hero of bladehold, brimaz, or mirran crusader (Akroma as well if you count her as such) are, in my opinion, the only dumb beater options. Serra does not, also dies to bolt, and is only really worth it if you run swords, which I ALSO recommend against. There are just way too many better cards to be putting in her place, she's a left over vestige of the legacy deck, only held on to for traditions sake.
Epochrasite there is an argument for. I like that it's resilient for long match ups and the mono white build struggles to find good creatures with 4 power, which is necessary in the jund match up. There's jotun grunt for that slot as well, but jotun DOES have that grave clause which can make things awkward.
Anyway, if I missed anything, my opinions of all cards mentioned are in the primer. I'm sure havrekjex will show up eventually and defend his precious Serra avenger, so if you want a positive out look on her wait for that hahaha. (I swear hating on Serra is like a bar signal for him)
What's French for suffocation?
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
I also play monowhite, and game 1 on the draw vs twin is very hard. A turn 1 aether vial is key. Thalia really helps slow them down (both their cantrips and making twin cost 5) and you need to focus on the land denial package, especially keeping them off red mana. Things get easier post board obviously. I really like spellskites since they serve double duty against many other decks like boggles, infect, burn, and scapeshift. You can also try ghostly prison, suppression field, and auriok champions (although they are pricey too but give broad uses against burn, aggro decks, and pod). It really plays out like a tempo game. You need to whittle down their life anyway possible and keep them off two red.
Regarding Serra Avenger, she was basically made obsolete by Restoration Angel
Suppresion field also helps vs affinity and adds another tax vs fetchlands. Of course it also taxes your aether vials. That being said, I've had suppresion field played against me, and it was very easy to play around. Paying 2 to drop a 3 drop with vial is still excellent if your opponent is also being taxed.
I also forgot to mention Celestial Purge. Exiles kiki and twin at instant speed. Pretty narrow card, but it also is good against jund (liliana and bob), storm (ascension and electromancer), and any red based aggro (zoo/gruul and red deck wins). Also has targets in Melira pod, so not too bad an option.
I run just 2 in my BW list an it runs just fine! I think it really just depends on what you think you're gonna face. 2 IS probably low, it just doesn't do as much work as you'd think for me.
So how do you resist the urge to just jam Kiki-jiki in there with the combo and all the synergy?
As a one or two off it's perfectly reasonable! Lots of mono white decks still run baneslayer.
Sorry man, sometimes it just happens. I look forward to the report! Do you think you just kept the wrong hands? It's always a tough call for this deck. With so little draw, strong opening hands are key. Sometimes you got mull a decent hand to just get that hate.
Ok my deck had rancors and honor the pures, but the priest was insanely good as most matches end up with grund and air stalls.
Exactly why I featured jotun grunt in the meta mind portion of the primer haha. He's FANTASTIC right now, especially with junk growing in style. You ran soltari priest with no swords? Interesting! Can I see the list? I'm not sure he's right for DnT but then again I never really considered him.
As a side note, I'm still dead set on pack rat but not certain on the number. CONSIDERING either a 3/1 or 2/2 split with bob since it helps supports and lord knows the deck could use draw. I am concerned about lifegain though and don't have enough experience playing lists with bob.
I played in the PTQ today (yesterday) and I just got land flooded every game. I went 1-2 and dropped. Needless to say I was frustrated. I drew so many lands and so many Aether Vials. I lost to U/W Gifts for god's sake.
I really like that list a lot. I love the focus on the synergies and intricacies of the deck. After tweaked and all that, this is what I am currently working with.
3 Judge's Familiar
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
3 Blade Splicer
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2 Mangara of Corondor
3 Restoration Angel
1 Akroma, Angel of Fury
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
//Land
4 Godless Shrine
2 Isolated Chapel
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Tectonic Edge
1 Eiganjo Castle
7 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Stony Silence
2 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Dismember
2 Rest In Peace
2 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
Judge's Familiar is starting to feel really awkward to me. In some matchups it's great, but sometimes it's bad. In other matchups it's bad, but sometimes great. Since it's not 4, it's not always in your opening hand, and that's when you want to see it, but running 4 means you'll see it more often throughout the game. I am thinking about cutting it for something more consistent, or with more synergy. I'm thinking either slotting Pack Rat back in, or running some number of Stonecloaker or Whitemane Lion or Jotun Grunt. I like Jotun Grunt because he's big and cheap, but he doesn't really feel like he fits the deck's plan very well. I like Stonecloaker because he doubles as grave hate and can randomly win your fights against Tarmogoyf or Reanimator Strategies, and is very synergistic with Mangara, and our ETB effects, but our 3 drop spot seems crowded. I like Whitemane Lion. He's cheap, effective, synergistic, but is very lackluster and "vanilla" feeling. Pack Rat is great because he avoids flooding, and is actually useful in multiples.
So many choices. I love this deck for that reason. There are so many varieties of this deck that everyone plays their own sort of "flavor", and most of them are good.
Edit: Has anyone tried Crucible of Worlds? The old Crucible + Strip Mine lock...And with Pack rat you can discard lands and then play them. Just brainstorming here...
Standard:
Modern:
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I am happy to post the list, but it really is not d and t, I do not want to be shouted at for posting in the wrong place. If any are reading I really need guidance from a mod as to if the deck should be in GW hatebears or in a new thread (description below) - with no vials, mana dorks, just 21 lands it really is not like gw hatebears. Perhaps deck creation or even budget. It only went 4-3 @ the PTQ, and I only made it last Tuesday (I did not fancy an 8 round ptq with d and t in what would be a jund heavy meta), although my last match I was not playing too well- I wanted to drop at 4-2 but my lift home was still playing.
I used 21 lands inc. 3 manlands and 4 canopies. With rancors, pridemages and honor the pure, so priest went pretty nuts without swords....
I am going to work on the list to sharpen it. I recall a card that forcasted to give shadow that would have really done a job on the 2 jund matches I narrowly lost when they were in the red zone.
On pack rat in bw- I saw a few yesterday, but never played them. They seem to grow in popularity.
Neat list, I too am enjoying playing the WR flickerwhisp deck.
How have you felt about playing no path to exiles in the main? Has lightning bolt really been that much better for you to not include it? Also have you considered 1-2 copies of Boros Charm? I was having issues with getting the opponent to 4ish life then running out of gas, and I did try the charm for a bit before switching to a single Keldon Megaliths
Has it been worth playing a single mountain? The only time I wished I had it involved ghost quartering my own land, which os probably a terrible idea %99 of the time.
How has Iroas worked out? I opened one and he is currently sitting in my binder. I've been tempted to put him in, but every time I think about it, I tell my self that I would prefer the vigilance and potential for tokens that comes with Heloid.
Finally I saw someone mention Kiki, and I definitely think you would benefit from putting a single copy into the deck. Being able to copy a flickerwhisp on the end step that you vial him in, then doing it again on your next turn can help break through stalled boards, and if you happen to have a resto and him you can just win out of nowhere.