I think it should be mentioned that Hushwing Gryff/Torpor Orb doesn't make Flickerwisp and Reatoration Angel completely useless, we've still got a 3/1 flier and a 3/4 flier with flash respectively. The only core card that gets completely wrecked is Splicer. Not that that isn't bad enough, but it's not an auto-lose by any means. There are a lot worse cards that can be seen on the other side of the table. A well-timed Blood Moon is often worse for GW, and I've had trouble with Ghostly Prison.
We've also got more ways to deal with Gryff, so I'd rather see that than Orb.
First, let me congratulate you on your winning streak! It isn't easy with this deck, each victory is earned. Second, allow me to welcome you to the Death and Taxes community, we're definitely one of the more active boards under the established section, and have a wealth of experienced players to give advice on almost every variation of the deck you can imagine. This is a new thread continuing a much older thread of 305 pages, it was necessary to update due to outdated information, but most of us have been playing the deck for a long, long time.
Thanks for the warm welcome! I just looked at the old thread, and wow -you were't wrong. That thing is a goldmine. I'm not sure if I can bring anything new to the table, unfortunately. But I'm happy to have a place to discuss the deck, card choices, and performance.
Quote from Sheepz »
One match up i noticed here is you seem to have struggled with the BGx shell, could you give more details there? It's a difficult match up for this deck, and the solutions often compromise other aspects, but I'd love to hear your opinion there, particularly in regards to how you sided against it and how it played out.
Yes, the BGx shell is very tough with my build (and I believe mono-white in general). I think it's hard to discuss that matchup without looking at the difference between the GW and mono-white Death and Taxes Builds.
First, as to how it played out. Basically, he won the die roll and played first. In game 1, he had t1 Inquisition of Kozilek (taking Flickerwisp), t2 Abrupt Decay and t3 Liliana of the Veil, the unholy trinity, backed up by Corsair of Kruphix, then he played Bob and drew into a Goyf. I had turn 1 Judge's Familiar into turn 2 Leonin Arbiter, which ate abrupt decay on my end step. Then he untapped and played Liliana and made me sacrifice my bird. I had the followup Blade Splicer on turn 3 (which I thought would get me there vs Liliana and was very happy to play) but as soon as he played Corsair I couldn't attack Liliana for lethal. He ticked up Liliana and played Bob the next turn, which out-drew me, and that was that.
Game 2 I remember he had the Inquisition again on turn 1, and Liliana on turn 3. I think he also had the Abrupt decay on turn 2, because he blew up my Vial, and I'm sure it was before he played Liliana... anyway, I played an Aether Vial on turn one, and he cast Inquisition. I can't remember what he took but it must have been my two drop because I remember being disappointed that he disrupted my curve. I had Vial, a two drop, and Aven Mindcensor in my opener. It wasn't the best hand vs him but not worth mulliganing. Anyway, I played land and shipped the turn back, then he did the same. I played my third land and passed, and he Decayed my Vial, then untapped and played Liliana, ticking it up to 4. I flashed in Mindcensor and attacked but didn't draw into any more gas. He must've played a Thoughtseize because my notes have him dropping 2 life before stabilising with Corsair again.
As to the matchup vs BGx, it is difficult for this deck. Their guys are bigger, and they have more card advantage built into their threats. If we get into an attrition battle it's very hard to win. It's quite important to land a Thalia on turn 2 to buy time against Liliana. If you can do that, then follow up with Arbiter + Ghost Quarter, or Blade Splicer, the matchup is a lot easier. The curve of Familiar -> Thalia -> Splicer is good because it puts Liliana on the back foot, and that card has so much value vs us.
I think the GW deck has a better matchup vs them, simply by being able to accelerate with Heirarch. Turn 2 Blade Splicer is very good vs their deck. The one drop creatures in the mono-white list and the GW list are different, but both have a similar function. While the Heirarchs accelerate our mana, the Familiar's act as 'pseudo' acceleration, by setting our opponent back one turn instead of us forward. The analogy doesn't fit perfectly, but I think it's adequate to describe the mono-white list's shortfall with BGx decks. The issue is this: The Heirarchs actually accelerate vs them, but the Familiars don't. Judge's Familiar can't counter Abrupt Decay, and it can't delay Liliana for a turn. While Familiar buys time vs the control decks by slowing them down, it doesn't serve the same function vs BGx. Therefore, the mono-white list is much more reliant on Thalia to help set them back for long enough to gain an edge. As I mentioned above, landing Thalia t2 is pretty crucial, especially if they have the Abrupt Decay -> Liliana hand. Judge's Familiar is good to protect your t2 Thalia, but only if you are on the play, otherwise they will strip it with discard.
Judge's Familiar, however, is fantastic against all the bolt decks, and control / combo decks like Twin and Scapeshift. So like you say, there are solutions that compromise other aspects.
As for sideboarding vs them, I brought in the usual 2 Rest in Peace, the Pithing Needle (for Liliana), and the two Kitchen Finks. I think I sided out Eight-and-a-Half-Tails, two Judge's Familiar, a Flickerwisp, and a Mindcensor.
Judge's Familiar is bad in this matchup but I wanted to have a couple of one drops to sacrifice to Liliana if the need arose. I also didn't want to raise my curve too much. I figured replacing one with Pithing Needle was fine, but I didn't want to drop more than one more 1-drop. The Flickerwisp and Mindcensor became Finks, which can block Bob profitably, and survive a Liliana -2. I know they can't fly over to hit Liliana but I still had 10 fliers in the deck. I'm more worried about getting to the stage where I can swing back against Liliana in the first place. They also buy time vs Goyf, so I can potentially draw Path. The Rest in Peace are self explanatory.
Quote from Sheepz »
A couple things stand out to me about your list. The use of Eight-and-a-half-tails has long since fallen out of favor due to the issues surrounding colored lands and of course our land destruction. Have you considered a tec edge and 2 plains for 3 mutas? A little less tec edge would support the mana sink better, and I've always felt Mutavault has a home in the mono white list, due to it being able to hold a capacity of 9 colorless lands and remain quite consistent. I'd also like to hear more about your testing with nevermore, another odd choice. The taxing bringing it to 4 seems to be quite the barrier to me, and I don't like relying on perfect knowledge of their deck game 2 due to transformative sideboards and the like. Lastly, how has Leonin Relic-Warder served you? I tested it a while and found it a bit unreliable, leading me to take other approaches to handling the artifact enchantment issue. Where does it really shine?
Regarding Eight-and-a-half-tails, I can definitely understand why people don't like it. It's very mana hungry. I think I've been fine with it as a result of having so many basic plains. Running 9 colourless sources is asking a lot I think (even with 7 I have to mulligan sometimes due to an opening seven with no Vial and no white source). Also, the lists with Horizon Canopy have more lands that are sacrificed than my build. Maybe these small differences in the manabase have something to do with peoples' preference, I don't know. For me, the main reason to have it in the main deck is that it's a catchall solution. It provides the deck with a lot more flexibility and utility when it is drawn late game. Mono-white builds seem to be a few cards short of really filling out with the perfect list, and until we get another creature that synergizes well with the rest of the deck, we need to make do with the available choices. I was also expecting more UWr, and being able to blank Path is pretty hot.
I thought about Mutavault and I think it's very strong. I didn't get around to testing with it though, so I wasn't comfortable running it on the day. I wouldn't want to go to more than 8 colourless sources, but I could see dropping a Tec Edge and a Plains for two Mutavaults. I liked having three Tec Edge, though. It's especially good vs Twin and Scapeshift, where all you need to do is apply pressure while keeping them off 5 and 7 mana, respectively. Being able to hit the 4th land is quite good, especially when you don't live the dream with Arbiter + Ghost Quarter. Given that Ghost Quarter is so bad without Arbiter (or Mindcensor), it's sometimes saved for dire circumstances (opposing man lands, Gavony Township, etc). Drawing the Arbiter late when they have 4+ lands in play is underwhelming, as they can still play their 2-drops and leave mana up for Arbiter + Ghost Quarter. Tec Edge just helps to bottleneck them that tiny bit more in the mid game. With Vial at 3 for Flickerwisp and Tec Edge, suddenly Twin can go from 1 turn away from winning to 3+ turns away, and those turns are crucial.
I really like Mutavault, though. I wonder if there is room for a more aggressive build. It might be better in the lists running 2 Brimaz. It seems extremely good in the BW lists running Pack Rat. I think it is worth testing eh? I might drop all the Tec Edges and replace them with Mutavaults just to see how it feels to swing the other way. It might feel a lot better. I think if you're going aggro with Mutavaults you definitely can't afford to leave mana up for Eight-and-a-Half-Tails, so that would be cut.
The Nevermore, yeah. It might seem expensive under Thalia, but my reasoning was this: With Thalia out, Splinter Twin, Scapeshift, and Cryptic Command all cost 5 (Not that Scapeshift will ever be cast with 5 lands in play). Nevermore costs 4. This means that even with Thalia out, you can land Nevermore before your opponent casts their backbreaking card, even on the draw. This is assuming you hit all your land drops, obviously. With Judge's Familiar, Cryptic Command and Scapeshift cost even more, so you have more time to drop lands and cast it. It's incredibly difficult for combo decks to remove, as they barely ever side in bounce. Usually they will side in Ancient Grudge for our Vials and Spellskite, but hardly ever will they side in bounce vs mono white in game 2. Cutting Scapeshift decks of Cryptic Command is also really good (vs the builds that run 4 Command anyway), and you can always use Flickerwisp to reset it to Scapeshift later in the game if they start hitting enough lands to threaten to combo. If you land Nevermore, you can basically force the combo decks to rely on the Batterskull plan in game 2.
Which leads me to Leonin Relic-Warder. Sometimes it's underwhelming, yeah. It's admittedly not the best. But what I like about it is that it takes care of Batterskull in game 2 vs the decks that side it in. Not only that, it's a 'may' trigger, so you often just play it out to increase your clock, then flicker it if they ever hit Batterskull. The downside is that it kinda sucks vs Affinity. What other option would you recommend I test?
Quote from Sheepz »
Sorry to bombard you with questions, but I always like picking apart successful lists haha.
No worries, I came here because I want to participate in discussion.
Particularly, I'm currently wondering if anyone has had experience with Eidolon of Rhetoric, specifically in the Burn matchup. It seems like it would slow them down a lot, and 4 toughness is the magic number... I'm having trouble with the Burn matchup, and am looking for a way to shore it up. I heard about someone running Aegis of the Gods vs burn as a 'must answer' threat, on Sunday apparently a Burn player lost to that card but to me it seems pretty terrible, to narrow and probably won't buy much time... What does everyone think of the Eidolon vs Burn?
Quote from Sheepz »
Oh! And on Hushwing Gryff. White is probably one of the least popular colors in modern, and when it is used it's often used for restos. I don't see hushwing doing much other than improving hatebears and possibly as a side in UWR, and if necessary to tech against it, the tech very much exists. I simply want to wait to see which lists actually adopt it before hurrying to counter a possibly non-existent threat.
It may only improve Hatebears, but it will improve it drastically imo. The deck might become more popular... Having said that, Icatian Javelineers is a very elegant solution for Death and Taxes, I agree.
Sorry for the long, rambling reply. I didn't mean to write this much...
Sorry to bombard you with questions, but I always like picking apart successful lists haha.
Particularly, I'm currently wondering if anyone has had experience with Eidolon of Rhetoric, specifically in the Burn matchup. It seems like it would slow them down a lot, and 4 toughness is the magic number... I'm having trouble with the Burn matchup, and am looking for a way to shore it up. I heard about someone running Aegis of the Gods vs burn as a 'must answer' threat, on Sunday apparently a Burn player lost to that card but to me it seems pretty terrible, to narrow and probably won't buy much time... What does everyone think of the Eidolon vs Burn?
I have had great success with Leyline of Sanctity as a 3 of. Burn almost can not win against it.
Too narrow a solution IMO. You'd think it was good in more match ups, but not really, and it eats 3-4 slots of the side we really can't afford to devote to it. That's why I believe in sideboard cards that are slightly broader in function to stop multiple match ups.
My question is if Hushwing Gryff can be played as a sideboard card in the Mono-W build against certain decks by swapping out Blade Splicer for it Games 2/3, or even replacing Splicer altogether? For example, against Birthing Pod and Splinter Twin decks, I feel like killing ETB effects on a flying 2/1 body is more value than Blade Splicer. I mourn the loss of the bounce effects from Flickerwisp and Restoration Angel, but 3/1 and 3/4 flyers are still value on their own and there will be plenty of times those will come down before Gryff does. I think the idea should be to maximize diverse hate utility and less on pure card synergy in those matches.
And I have been thinking about this in Standard, Legacy, and Modern: Is it always advantageous or necessary to be synergistic as a control deck? (I am including my long explanation of what I mean below.) Maybe we can move from synergy to non-synergy depending on the match?
Is synergy between our parts needed against combo decks? Don't we just want to maximize our chances of disrupting their combo, thus don't we want the maximum number of individual cards that wreck the combos? What are our combo wreckers? Flickerwisp, Eidolon of Rhetoric, Spellskite, Aven Mindcensor, Path to Exile and Leonin Arbiter, Thalia, land destruction. They stop/tax searching, stop multiple spell playing, remove key threats, and then mana taxing. Blade Splicer is a nice wincon/board manager that works well with Flickerwisp and Resto to make a lot of annoying 3/3s with potential first strike. But is that our best option against combo or control? It is great against UWR Geist and aggro decks, but maybe then it loses value in the other matchups we care about.
And I know I am new to the deck and so I probably am underestimating Splicer (not really, a Splicer with two tokens out is pretty much an uber-wall in Modern and possibly making more tokens makes a heck of a defense against any creature strategy), but maybe that card is not where we want to be. Maybe we want 2 Jotun Grunt and 2 Mirran Crusader main because they are better versus Rock and Jund?
I don't know. I just know that a card like Gryff is an opportunity rethink the best way to take the deck forward.
TLDR Section
Synergistic vs. non-Synergistic Decks:
What I mean by synergy, for those who don't know, is the idea that the various parts of the deck reinforce and get stronger from each other and if they do not play nicely together, they make the plays exponentially worse.
On a scale, I would say the most synergistic decks are tempo or aggro-control decks, like anything ever Delver or Mono-U in Standard. Everything is about getting out a threat and then disrupting your opponent as you ding them every turn. That is why Delver of Secrets and Tarmogoyf are perfect tempo creatures, backed up by a lot of counter magic, versatile targeted removal, and possibly hand destruction for disruption or burn for reach.
Control decks are next, since typically you don't want any aspect of your control methods to negate any of the other control methods. This is why creature-based board control doesn't play well with sweepers and counter spells typical of a draw-go style, because it wants a full creature base and it doesn't want to tap out. However, both utilize targeted removal and both want to keep the opponent from doing much of anything effective until inevitability sets in for the control player.
Fast aggro decks are typically only synergistic at the level of wanting constant damage output, but any non-creature, non-burn spells they play are meant to boost damage output ASAP. Think Infect, Sligh, white weenie. I would say that Affinity is the most synergistic an aggro deck can be.
Synergy almost completely disappears with mid-range decks. These are the classic "good stuff" decks: play the best cards (especially creatures) in the format, to heck with synergy. Mid-Range comes in two flavors: Beatdown and Control. Jund is pretty much always Mid-range, running a combination of the best creatures, some ramp, and enough removal to beat aggro in the short game until they can stabilize with creatures, and hand destruction and possibly some burn to mitigate the ability of control to stop them in the mid-long game. GRx Monsters, Rock, Junk, Jund and Mono-B Devotion are the monsters of the mid-range (moving, btw, from most Beatdown-ish to most Control-ish.)
Combo is weird because all it wants to do is survive until it hits the combo. The combo is itself the ultimate synergistic move, but its way of surviving until it hits the combo can be utterly u-synergistic. It just needs to get to the combo and then it wins. And combo can come in a large number of styles (I think of combo as a way of hitting your wincon layered onto a deck type, so Elves is an aggro combo, Pod is a mid-range combo,Storm is a control combo, etc.)
So... are we the kind of control deck that can be less synergistic? Do we need the synergy of Blade Splicer + Flickerwisp + Resto Angel? Or is there a place in the Mono-W side for Gryff despite its negative impact because it increases our chances of effective disruption in certain matches to such a high degree?
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I would keep as many fliers as possible in the BGx match up, particularly wisp to reset scooze and lili. I'd take splicer out instead since it's easier to wall the golem and such with tarmo and courser. What you sided in was perfect though IMO, would have done the same. I will have more on the BGx match up soon, it's in the works.
As for what id take over relic warder, I'd go with sundering growth. The populate is a great tempo swing and it's a permanent answer which is fantastic.
Thanks for the great reply, sorry this is short in answering from my phone!
1. I don't think it's going to be terribly widely adopted. It's rare there are white builds that don't need resto. It's going to be sort of like spirit of the labyrinth in legacy; good effect, still not worth it.
2. Yes hatebears will run it, and yes it will be a serious threat. Our removal is already strained against them, so this isn't great news. I look forward to seeing what they cut though, and if it becomes prolific enough, we may end up keeping more removal and beaters side to put in in response.
3. We cannot move away from bounce effects without a splash for some form of card advantage. White simply relies on etb effects to gain value because it has no draw. Whether this means more GW builds and BW builds running confidant, I don't know. If you cut the bounce and flicker though, you remove a lot of our tempo game so it almost becomes a weak midrange deck. It's also worth noting mono white doesn't have the mana sink splashes have such as gavony, pack rat, and vault of the archangel. Our deck becomes stupidly inefficient without bounce effects for value because of this. Now there COULD be a solution that's been tested here before running a blue splash for celestial collonade, but I don't think that alone will be enough to make up for the loss of value.
Lastly, again, torpor orb didn't kill us and that can be run in any deck and is harder to remove. This will be run in LESS decks and is EASIER to remove. It's a hatebears/UWR answer to twin, nothing more IMO. Over all, stick to your guns and accept that every deck in modern has it's kryptonite. Just be happy ours isn't the hardest to deal with.
From one of the more experienced hate bear players on the thread:
"I don't think Hushwing Gryff is very good. Sure, it has Flash and a relevant ability, but I don't think it's good for the Modern met. There are two decks we would primarily want to run this for: Pod and Twin. Against Pod, Gryff is only good in response to casting a creature, and is horrible as a response to Pod. You have to respond to the Pod activation, which means they can get whatever else is beneficial to them instead of card x. Against Twin, the x/1 body is not going to survive very long. If he is the only thing stopping the combo, you're probably not going to have more than a turn or two before they draw into removal.
It's not bad, but I don't think it's as good as people are saying. I've been wrong before though."
I know he doesn't speak for everyone, and may end up wrong, but it's certainly good to see doubt cast from the group most likely to run it.
So... are we the kind of control deck that can be less synergistic? Do we need the synergy of Blade Splicer + Flickerwisp + Resto Angel? Or is there a place in the Mono-W side for Gryff despite its negative impact because it increases our chances of effective disruption in certain matches to such a high degree?
I might be reading you wrong, and if so I'm sorry about that, but I think maybe you're make it sound like we're sacrificing card quality for the synergy. While the synergies (which are primarily producing more Golems and reusing Flickerwisps with Restoration Angel) is a nifty part of that package, I would like to stress that the reason it works is that each of those three cards are great on their own. We're really not sacrificing anything other than a weakness for Torbor Orb and Gryff. We don't see Orb that often and I expect to see Gryff less, we have ways to deal with them and we can still win with them on the board. The only card that is rendered completely useless by Orb/Gryff is Splicer.
Let's evaluate these cards without the synergies:
Blade Splicer gives you two bodies for one card, and that has a very good clutter effect. The 1/1 might not seem like a whole lot without the omnipresent threat of flickering it, but I find that a 1/1 and a 3/3 is often better than a 4/4. Besides, no threat of flickering is kind of a non-scenario because even with Orb/Gryff out, everyone knows that the first thing we'll do if/when we manage to deal with Orb/Gryff is to flicker it. I see my opponent scratching his head trying to figure out whether to hit Golem or Splicer almost every time, and I'm glad it's not me that's stuck with that decision. Against control they have to remove both somehow, they can't let us keep a 1/1 to grind them down with, so our one card either requires two removal spells or forces out a board wipe, keeping us one card further away from overextending into a Verdict/Electrolyze/Anger of the Gods. It's two-for-one at its very best.
Restoration Angel would be a good card even without the flicker effect. A 3/4 flier with flash is a great deal, both of the abilities and the four toughness is extremely well positioned in the meta. The flicker effect is not just there for Splicer and Flickerwisp, it can and will often be used simply to let another creature dodge removal.
Flickerwisp... I can just scratch the surface here, or it's going to run too long. Most of it is in the primer, but there are so many corner cases where it's useful that I'm still discovering new ones. It steals me weird wins all the time. I've targeted Emrakul with it and won because of it. Thought nothing could hit Emrakul? Read it again. I've reset Pyromancer Ascension, buying me enough time to win. I've reset Oozes with it, vialed it in to stop a lethal Cranial Plating attack. I've killed Wurm and Elemental tokens. I've vialed it in end of my turn to hold a board wipe off for an extra turn, or to deny my opponent to use Liliana's sac effect for a turn. I recently vialed one in to stop Twin from comboing off three times in the same game. You could write a damn book about this thing. With Resto/Splicer/Vial I would run six or seven if it wasn't against the rules, and even with Vial only I would still run a number of wisps.
So, you're asking, do we need the Blade Splicer / Restoration Angel / Flickerwisp package? In my opinion, yes. My view is that those cards (plus Vial) is the spine of the deck. We have three creatures that are very good each by their own, and incredible when we're running them all. I can't imagine anything to hate out with Gryff that would be worth giving this package up. Until I see Orb/Gryff in at least every third matchup, I'm not cutting them. I'd rather add cards to deal with Orb/Gryff than cut those cards.
Edit: I realize that I'm being a conservative voice here, and in no way do I wish to discourage you from rethinking what this deck could be. Go ahead and try to prove me wrong, I'd love nothing more. You have my full support.
I have had great success with Leyline of Sanctity as a 3 of. Burn almost can not win against it.
Too narrow a solution IMO. You'd think it was good in more match ups, but not really, and it eats 3-4 slots of the side we really can't afford to devote to it. That's why I believe in sideboard cards that are slightly broader in function to stop multiple match ups.
I agree with Sheepz here. 3 Slots for Leyline is difficult. I side in the Forge-Tender package at the moment, so that helps wall their early creatures, but I'm just looking for a potential 1-2 more cards that also have application in other matches. I can see running Eidolon of Rhetoric because it's also good vs Storm decks. Aegis of the Gods and Mark of Asylum is a good lock vs Burn, but I would never want to reply on drawing BOTH 1-of cards. Aegis and Burrenton Forge-Tender can necessitate them using two removal spells, but I think Eidolon would buy more time (and you wouldn't have to sacrifice Forge-Tender).
Quote from Sheepz »
I would keep as many fliers as possible in the BGx match up, particularly wisp to reset scooze and lili. I'd take splicer out instead since it's easier to wall the golem and such with tarmo and courser. What you sided in was perfect though IMO, would have done the same. I will have more on the BGx match up soon, it's in the works.
As for what id take over relic warder, I'd go with sundering growth. The populate is a great tempo swing and it's a permanent answer which is fantastic.
Both good ideas. I should've thought about Blade Splicer, because that exact thing happened to me in game 1 (getting walled by Corsair). I was too focused on it producing multiple bodies for Liliana.
Sundering growth actually sounds really good. I'll have to try it out, for sure. Populate sounds amazing if you have Blade Splicer out, which I can imagine would be relevant enough for it to matter.
I have had great success with Leyline of Sanctity as a 3 of. Burn almost can not win against it.
Too narrow a solution IMO. You'd think it was good in more match ups, but not really, and it eats 3-4 slots of the side we really can't afford to devote to it. That's why I believe in sideboard cards that are slightly broader in function to stop multiple match ups.
I agree with Sheepz here. 3 Slots for Leyline is difficult. I side in the Forge-Tender package at the moment, so that helps wall their early creatures, but I'm just looking for a potential 1-2 more cards that also have application in other matches. I can see running Eidolon of Rhetoric because it's also good vs Storm decks. Aegis of the Gods and Mark of Asylum is a good lock vs Burn, but I would never want to reply on drawing BOTH 1-of cards. Aegis and Burrenton Forge-Tender can necessitate them using two removal spells, but I think Eidolon would buy more time (and you wouldn't have to sacrifice Forge-Tender).
Quote from Sheepz »
I would keep as many fliers as possible in the BGx match up, particularly wisp to reset scooze and lili. I'd take splicer out instead since it's easier to wall the golem and such with tarmo and courser. What you sided in was perfect though IMO, would have done the same. I will have more on the BGx match up soon, it's in the works.
As for what id take over relic warder, I'd go with sundering growth. The populate is a great tempo swing and it's a permanent answer which is fantastic.
Both good ideas. I should've thought about Blade Splicer, because that exact thing happened to me in game 1 (getting walled by Corsair). I was too focused on it producing multiple bodies for Liliana.
Sundering growth actually sounds really good. I'll have to try it out, for sure. Populate sounds amazing if you have Blade Splicer out, which I can imagine would be relevant enough for it to matter.
Vialed wisp is gonna save a creature or creature value on etb somehow anyway, but flies. Moral of the story; glory to the flickerwisp, for he is our lord and savior, and shall never pass on to the great sideboard beyond, for his work is never done.
I know I've alluded to this, but here is the link to the actual raw data: Raw Matches It's every post from death and taxes on salvation on matches in chronological order. Now I understand combing through that is probably not an exciting afternoon for most of you. That's why what's important here is that I have the data in this format, so I can use it to do other cool things. Some ideas I want to implement (In no precise order):
1. Separate out the different match ups. I would like a file with JUST the information on Jund, UWR, Merfolk, etc.
2. Create a report card of sorts. This will show what match ups we are over and under performing in, and adjust accordingly.
3. Label the timeline with expansion releases/bans, for further segmentation capabilities.
I hope you guys will at least take a peek at the file to see what I'm dealing with, so you'll understand if some of these take a considerable amount of time.
Hey guys I finally found the right thread, I was posting in GW Hatebears before. I was talking about how I don't like Leonin Arbiter because it has virtually zero practical effect in the games I play. I guess I'd ask for some pointers using the card and some actual scenarios where it comes into effect, as well as some ideas as to how the list will be rearranged with the addition of Hushwing Gryff.
I think Hushwing Gryff will put this deck more on the map itself and is a clear 4-of. It is a hard no to both premier combo decks in the format (Twin and Pod, because it stops Deceiver Exarch/Pestermite/Restoration Angel/Kitchen Finks/Murderous Redcap from triggering), which are both stellar tier 1 strategies due to the little recourse other decks have against them. It also stops Snapcaster Mage, and while there are fewer practical scenarios where you can "get them" against Snapcaster versus the others mentioned, it generates a card's worth of value and great tempo when it happens.
Blade Splicer and Flickerwisp are hurt by the inclusion of Gryff, but Restoration Angel is still stellar because it has flash, 4 toughness, and flying. Restoration Angel generates external value only about half the time anyway. Not being able to save Gryff with Resto is currently a concern of mine. Luckily Gryff, Flickerwisp, and Blade Splicer all cost three so we can switch them without affecting the curve.
Leonin Arbiter's potential disruption can be somewhat compensated by Gryff against Pod. Rather than trying to tax them for Pod activations, you can just jam Gryff in response to it, or even see what they go and get, and then stop the iteration if they try to combo.
In my opinion, Leonin Arbiter is not good enough because there are only a few scenarios where he generates external value, which are in turn all improbable, unnatural lines of play to assume for your opponent. Pod generates enough mana to just play through it, fetchlands naturally avoid it by being played first. Not much other searching happens in the format, and Aven Mindcensor is more effective on the same axis at generating real value.
My real issue with Leonin Arbiter is that he is just a Grizzly Bear; too much of the time it's far below modern-playable power level. It might seem good that he draws removal the way he does when you're curving out, but when it's your two-drop that gets efficiently 1-for-1'ed, that's when aggro really loses a lot of tempo and can't push through.
People play around it when you go Plains > AEther Vial. So isn't it all the better if you don't have it in your deck?
Hey guys I finally found the right thread, I was posting in GW Hatebears before. I was talking about how I don't like Leonin Arbiter because it has virtually zero practical effect in the games I play. I guess I'd ask for some pointers using the card and some actual scenarios where it comes into effect, as well as some ideas as to how the list will be rearranged with the addition of Hushwing Gryff.
I think Hushwing Gryff will put this deck more on the map itself and is a clear 4-of. It is a hard no to both premier combo decks in the format (Twin and Pod, because it stops Deceiver Exarch/Pestermite/Restoration Angel/Kitchen Finks/Murderous Redcap from triggering), which are both stellar tier 1 strategies due to the little recourse other decks have against them. It also stops Snapcaster Mage, and while there are fewer practical scenarios where you can "get them" against Snapcaster versus the others mentioned, it generates a card's worth of value and great tempo when it happens.
Blade Splicer and Flickerwisp are hurt by the inclusion of Gryff, but Restoration Angel is still stellar because it has flash, 4 toughness, and flying. Restoration Angel generates external value only about half the time anyway. Not being able to save Gryff with Resto is currently a concern of mine. Luckily Gryff, Flickerwisp, and Blade Splicer all cost three so we can switch them without affecting the curve.
Leonin Arbiter's potential disruption can be somewhat compensated by Gryff against Pod. Rather than trying to tax them for Pod activations, you can just jam Gryff in response to it, or even see what they go and get, and then stop the iteration if they try to combo.
In my opinion, Leonin Arbiter is not good enough because there are only a few scenarios where he generates external value, which are in turn all improbable, unnatural lines of play to assume for your opponent. Pod generates enough mana to just play through it, fetchlands naturally avoid it by being played first. Not much other searching happens in the format, and Aven Mindcensor is more effective on the same axis at generating real value.
My real issue with Leonin Arbiter is that he is just a Grizzly Bear; too much of the time it's far below modern-playable power level. It might seem good that he draws removal the way he does when you're curving out, but when it's your two-drop that gets efficiently 1-for-1'ed, that's when aggro really loses a lot of tempo and can't push through.
People play around it when you go Plains > AEther Vial. So isn't it all the better if you don't have it in your deck?
Hatebears is absolutely the deck you're looking for here, not death and taxes. Hushwing won't see play in a death and taxes list, I garunntee it. Hatebears however is having a good discussion on the subject last I checked and may very well adopt it as a four off!
Why are you so sure this will not see play in monowhite?
Mono white almost as a rule runs a minimum of 12 flicker effects. Resto, splicer, and flickerwisp. Flickerwisp is hands down the best card death and taxes plays. Hushwing shuts all of these off. The thing about mono white is it does haven't have card draw, so it has to create advantage through value plays, such as bouncing and flickering, or playing powerful effects to shut off opposing cards such as stony silence. Hushwing is a good card. It just isn't good enough to make me cut my 12 best cards good. The primer really explains all this a lot better than here, I have to apologize I'm in my phone at the moment.
Hello, I'm here for a little advice. Full disclosure, I don't play jund. I play death and taxes and written the primer. With this in mind, I'm trying to fix and a common issue I see when playing against jund. The sideboarding against it is far from standard, with people siding spellskites, mirran crusader, judges familiar, mark of asylum, burrenton forge-tender, leylines, rest in peace, jotun grunt, needles, all sorta of things. What I would like to know is how would YOU best side against your deck from white primarily, but black and green as well. Anyone with additional experience playing against death and taxes with specific advice would be nice as well!
Apologies for de-railing the conversation, but I've examined the match up endlessly and felt it was time to get an expert opinion.
I'm not an expert but there's a few things I've noticed in playing against it. Leylines I'm very happy to see sided in against me because it affects 6-7 cards max (often 3+ discard spells get sided out). Notably it works against Liliana, but more often it's just a dead card and a dead draw. Mirran Crusader is fine to board in as it's likely in the board for pod, but it's often unimpressive as it draws Anger/Bolt/naked Liliana. Forge Tender can be a real pain to deal with and IMO is better than Mark of Asylum but that's probably just a preference if I were to play Hatebears. I personally haven't seen Jotun Grunt, but I doubt it's that great as an "answer" but possibly better to bring a few 2-3 in if it's available as it can shrink goyfs, lives through anger and can play tempo. I'm not sure post board it would live more than 3 turns though as Hatebears doesn't play fetches often.
My game plan for Hatebears is to add in explosives, Anger/Jund Charm, bow of nylea, targeted removal, a thrun and a batterskull. I might also side in the fourth Liliana dependent on play/draw. I'd look to cut discard(3-6), a Confidant and maybe some random stuff.
If I were playing Hatebears, I'd look to add in the various SB cards that are good for Grindy long games (Thrun, Batterskull, Elspeth, etc) alongside whatever otherwise good cards that are available. I'd be looking to cut at least 1 Aether Vial, it can be a good trick but it loses value in the longer games pretty drastically.
Now if this is more BW Death and Taxes/tokens more than Hatebears things change a little bit but eh same principles apply.
Thanks for the answer! Does spellskite help? Sometimes i board it vs jund, sometimes not. More often than not, I just beat face against them with fliers. Vial is still important for baiting discard spells then vialing in response, but I question the use of leonin arbiter against them. I guess the core of the matter is I haven't really figured who's the beatdown in this match up. Jotun is good for surprise blocks on early goyfs and getting good beats in while staying out of bolt range. I used in the past, but cut it for rest in peace in the end. Unfortunately, additional beaters as you suggested aren't really an option here. I do think the way to go might be to cut the low curve creatures for slightly higher ones if possible though. It's tough to do without compromising the main or board for other match ups. Thank you though, you've been a great help!
IMO, Spellskite is not something I would ever board in from Wx D&T and something I would be exceptionally happy in most circumstances seeing played against me. Jund is not, even post board, a typically "threat dense" deck. Often it includes 13-14 creatures main and 3-4 manlands. Post board that likely increases by 2-4 dependent on what's in the board; however, people may bring in 2-4 Fulminators for manlands or utility lands in specific circumstances. When you consider the fact that 4 of those creatures are Dark Confidant (which is less likely to block or attack except against a naked board), spending a card for what is essentially an 0/4 wall with a semi-relevant ability is often just worse than having any other actual threatening creature.
To explain cutting an Aether Vial I've got to go into some math. Odds of opening handing an Aether Vial with 4 in the deck are:
7 card hand 39.95%
6 card hand 35.15%
5 card hand 30.06%
However with 3 in the deck it is:
7 card hand 31.54%
6 card hand 27.52%
5 card hand 23.33%
With 2 in the deck:
7 card hand 22.15%
6 card hand 19.15%
5 card hadn 16.10%
My experience with the matchup is that in Wx "hate bears" type decks, it's often a tempo game for Wx and a Control/Grindy type game for GBx. Being able to Vial in Flickerwisp or Angel can be a nice boost, but most of what jund will do is trade 1:1 while trying to eek out mimimal advantages. We still have to try and kill specific cards (notably Bladesplicer and Arbiter) at essentially Sorcery speed (similar to dealing with Infect) to avoid Angel/Flickerwisp blowouts. The difference is that Wx "hate bears" strategies often play 21-23 land (usually 22 or 23) and 4 vials whereas we play only 24 lands, this gives us 3 extra "actual spells" in the deck. So the point of cutting a vial or two isn't so that you can do extra tricks like sliding a creature in post Anger or protecting from a removal spell; it's more so to up your "card" count to closer meet ours while not eliminating your "mana" base. One of the great things about Jund, is that Vial itself is very rarely an actual threat unless it's in multiples with the right creatures in hand. However, because of Liliana and some discard those type of hands are low percentage (it also means drawing fewer land and more creatures); so when those hands come up we'll often be able to regain tempo with Abrupt Decay and/or Maelstrom Pulse which can lock out a land hand.
So the thing I think many of you are missing is that while Vial helps you trade card advantage for tempo; because Jund is so adept at dealing with tempo in a wide variety of ways (terminate, Slaughter Pact, Abrupt Decay, Bolt, Goyf/Ooze beats, Discard, Liliana, etc.) it will often be more correct to cut the cards which help us stabilize because they are "non-factors" or "low impact" cards. It's the same principle of why Spellskite is so bad. They both often do very little against us so side out some/all of the Vials. Additionally by keeping the all the vials, your chance of drawing a non-vial card for each turn decreases by about 2% (give or take) per draw for every vial you keep in. It's kind of funny how I think statistically speaking most everyone plays 4 vials automatically however math tends to favor playing 3.
All this is said though coming from a Jund player. I see different aspects of what I think is good. Overall, I think GW Hatebears is probably better than most variants of Death and Taxes because they often will get better utility out of their lands while maintaining a core of useful tricks. Plus their mana accelerators have relevance in the mid to late game due to Gavony. I'm actually really tempted to try out a variant with Fauna Shaman because it looks really fun and spicy.
edit: If I'm not explaining things well, I often have a meandering mind and stop mid-thought to pick up something else. So I can try to explain different points better if you have specific questions.
For those asking about Eidolon of Rhetoric against burn, yes, it's very good. I test a lot against burn, and I routinely side it in. It also basically wins the game against Storm. Just don't block a Goblin Electromancer with it, because you are just asking to get bolted. Patrician's Scorn and Celestial Flare are a nod to Bogles in my meta. People love that deck here for some reason. If I get to the venue and don't see many Bogles, I will probably change those into dismembers and Mark of Asylum, or something. The Mangara will probably turn back into the 3rd Resto Angel. I have a soft spot for that card because of legacy, but in reality it's just not as good in this format with no Karakas.
As much as I like the consistency of the mono white build, Tidehollow Sculler and Pack Rat have been amazing to me in past (and current) standards, and seem invaluably good in testing. Pack Rat even helps the aggressive matchups. If they can't kill you before he comes down, the rats get out of control. Mutavault is great here too for that reason.
Any suggestions and help with the build would be great.
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DCI Level 1 Judge
Standard: B/x Devotion Modern: Death & Taxes
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I'd pick that list over mono white any day. Two excellent cards, Rat and Sculler, fill the space that mono white has trouble filling because of a well-established shortage of must-have creatures. I think hand info via Sculler is the most compelling thing about black.
I like the 2/1 Muta/Edge split. Rat is what takes Mutavault from "meh" to "yeah" in my book, but I never ever cut the last Edge.
Not a huge fan of Mangara, I'd run another Resto over her, but I'm sure you made a concious choice there. I'd definitely run a second Dismember over Flare if I had black mana available, it's a huge perk with BW.
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When I hit my 3000 post mark, I'm gone for good.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Hello, I'm here for a little advice. Full disclosure, I don't play jund. I play death and taxes and written the primer. With this in mind, I'm trying to fix and a common issue I see when playing against jund. The sideboarding against it is far from standard, with people siding spellskites, mirran crusader, judges familiar, mark of asylum, burrenton forge-tender, leylines, rest in peace, jotun grunt, needles, all sorta of things. What I would like to know is how would YOU best side against your deck from white primarily, but black and green as well. Anyone with additional experience playing against death and taxes with specific advice would be nice as well!
Apologies for de-railing the conversation, but I've examined the match up endlessly and felt it was time to get an expert opinion.
I'm not an expert but there's a few things I've noticed in playing against it. Leylines I'm very happy to see sided in against me because it affects 6-7 cards max (often 3+ discard spells get sided out). Notably it works against Liliana, but more often it's just a dead card and a dead draw. Mirran Crusader is fine to board in as it's likely in the board for pod, but it's often unimpressive as it draws Anger/Bolt/naked Liliana. Forge Tender can be a real pain to deal with and IMO is better than Mark of Asylum but that's probably just a preference if I were to play Hatebears. I personally haven't seen Jotun Grunt, but I doubt it's that great as an "answer" but possibly better to bring a few 2-3 in if it's available as it can shrink goyfs, lives through anger and can play tempo. I'm not sure post board it would live more than 3 turns though as Hatebears doesn't play fetches often.
My game plan for Hatebears is to add in explosives, Anger/Jund Charm, bow of nylea, targeted removal, a thrun and a batterskull. I might also side in the fourth Liliana dependent on play/draw. I'd look to cut discard(3-6), a Confidant and maybe some random stuff.
If I were playing Hatebears, I'd look to add in the various SB cards that are good for Grindy long games (Thrun, Batterskull, Elspeth, etc) alongside whatever otherwise good cards that are available. I'd be looking to cut at least 1 Aether Vial, it can be a good trick but it loses value in the longer games pretty drastically.
Now if this is more BW Death and Taxes/tokens more than Hatebears things change a little bit but eh same principles apply.
Thanks for the answer! Does spellskite help? Sometimes i board it vs jund, sometimes not. More often than not, I just beat face against them with fliers. Vial is still important for baiting discard spells then vialing in response, but I question the use of leonin arbiter against them. I guess the core of the matter is I haven't really figured who's the beatdown in this match up. Jotun is good for surprise blocks on early goyfs and getting good beats in while staying out of bolt range. I used in the past, but cut it for rest in peace in the end. Unfortunately, additional beaters as you suggested aren't really an option here. I do think the way to go might be to cut the low curve creatures for slightly higher ones if possible though. It's tough to do without compromising the main or board for other match ups. Thank you though, you've been a great help!
IMO, Spellskite is not something I would ever board in from Wx D&T and something I would be exceptionally happy in most circumstances seeing played against me. Jund is not, even post board, a typically "threat dense" deck. Often it includes 13-14 creatures main and 3-4 manlands. Post board that likely increases by 2-4 dependent on what's in the board; however, people may bring in 2-4 Fulminators for manlands or utility lands in specific circumstances. When you consider the fact that 4 of those creatures are Dark Confidant (which is less likely to block or attack except against a naked board), spending a card for what is essentially an 0/4 wall with a semi-relevant ability is often just worse than having any other actual threatening creature.
To explain cutting an Aether Vial I've got to go into some math. Odds of opening handing an Aether Vial with 4 in the deck are:
7 card hand 39.95%
6 card hand 35.15%
5 card hand 30.06%
However with 3 in the deck it is:
7 card hand 31.54%
6 card hand 27.52%
5 card hand 23.33%
With 2 in the deck:
7 card hand 22.15%
6 card hand 19.15%
5 card hadn 16.10%
My experience with the matchup is that in Wx "hate bears" type decks, it's often a tempo game for Wx and a Control/Grindy type game for GBx. Being able to Vial in Flickerwisp or Angel can be a nice boost, but most of what jund will do is trade 1:1 while trying to eek out mimimal advantages. We still have to try and kill specific cards (notably Bladesplicer and Arbiter) at essentially Sorcery speed (similar to dealing with Infect) to avoid Angel/Flickerwisp blowouts. The difference is that Wx "hate bears" strategies often play 21-23 land (usually 22 or 23) and 4 vials whereas we play only 24 lands, this gives us 3 extra "actual spells" in the deck. So the point of cutting a vial or two isn't so that you can do extra tricks like sliding a creature in post Anger or protecting from a removal spell; it's more so to up your "card" count to closer meet ours while not eliminating your "mana" base. One of the great things about Jund, is that Vial itself is very rarely an actual threat unless it's in multiples with the right creatures in hand. However, because of Liliana and some discard those type of hands are low percentage (it also means drawing fewer land and more creatures); so when those hands come up we'll often be able to regain tempo with Abrupt Decay and/or Maelstrom Pulse which can lock out a land hand.
So the thing I think many of you are missing is that while Vial helps you trade card advantage for tempo; because Jund is so adept at dealing with tempo in a wide variety of ways (terminate, Slaughter Pact, Abrupt Decay, Bolt, Goyf/Ooze beats, Discard, Liliana, etc.) it will often be more correct to cut the cards which help us stabilize because they are "non-factors" or "low impact" cards. It's the same principle of why Spellskite is so bad. They both often do very little against us so side out some/all of the Vials. Additionally by keeping the all the vials, your chance of drawing a non-vial card for each turn decreases by about 2% (give or take) per draw for every vial you keep in. It's kind of funny how I think statistically speaking most everyone plays 4 vials automatically however math tends to favor playing 3.
All this is said though coming from a Jund player. I see different aspects of what I think is good. Overall, I think GW Hatebears is probably better than most variants of Death and Taxes because they often will get better utility out of their lands while maintaining a core of useful tricks. Plus their mana accelerators have relevance in the mid to late game due to Gavony. I'm actually really tempted to try out a variant with Fauna Shaman because it looks really fun and spicy.
edit: If I'm not explaining things well, I often have a meandering mind and stop mid-thought to pick up something else. So I can try to explain different points better if you have specific questions.
thanks for the info! I'll use it to help write a bit about jund. The reason 4 vial is TYPICALLY better is we really need it to fix our shaky mana bases, but with jund games going long it might be worth taking out. I like that idea and not decreasing our threat density.
For those asking about Eidolon of Rhetoric against burn, yes, it's very good. I test a lot against burn, and I routinely side it in. It also basically wins the game against Storm. Just don't block a Goblin Electromancer with it, because you are just asking to get bolted. Patrician's Scorn and Celestial Flare are a nod to Bogles in my meta. People love that deck here for some reason. If I get to the venue and don't see many Bogles, I will probably change those into dismembers and Mark of Asylum, or something. The Mangara will probably turn back into the 3rd Resto Angel. I have a soft spot for that card because of legacy, but in reality it's just not as good in this format with no Karakas.
As much as I like the consistency of the mono white build, Tidehollow Sculler and Pack Rat have been amazing to me in past (and current) standards, and seem invaluably good in testing. Pack Rat even helps the aggressive matchups. If they can't kill you before he comes down, the rats get out of control. Mutavault is great here too for that reason.
Any suggestions and help with the build would be great.
I've run the black splash a long time, more notes on it are in the primer (At the end) but here my current list:
My thoughts on your deck are this, cut mangara for a rat, I'm NEVER sad to top deck rat. Beats 1-1 removal, and is a threat that can get out of anger range real quick. I've been meaning to adopt mutavaults like you, I just haven't gotten around to purchasing and testing them, but I will. I would eliminate isolated chapel for shizo, death's storehouse, and cavern of souls. We CANNOT afford to have lands come into play tapped. Souls means we just WIN some match ups like delver no problem, and gives us an out other than vial against blue decks. Lastly, I'd really like Engineered Explosives and mark of asylum in the side there somewhere, as well as either another dismember or slaughter pact (for twin). Best of luck! Let me know if you have any other questions!
We've also got more ways to deal with Gryff, so I'd rather see that than Orb.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
Thanks for the warm welcome! I just looked at the old thread, and wow -you were't wrong. That thing is a goldmine. I'm not sure if I can bring anything new to the table, unfortunately. But I'm happy to have a place to discuss the deck, card choices, and performance.
Yes, the BGx shell is very tough with my build (and I believe mono-white in general). I think it's hard to discuss that matchup without looking at the difference between the GW and mono-white Death and Taxes Builds.
First, as to how it played out. Basically, he won the die roll and played first. In game 1, he had t1 Inquisition of Kozilek (taking Flickerwisp), t2 Abrupt Decay and t3 Liliana of the Veil, the unholy trinity, backed up by Corsair of Kruphix, then he played Bob and drew into a Goyf. I had turn 1 Judge's Familiar into turn 2 Leonin Arbiter, which ate abrupt decay on my end step. Then he untapped and played Liliana and made me sacrifice my bird. I had the followup Blade Splicer on turn 3 (which I thought would get me there vs Liliana and was very happy to play) but as soon as he played Corsair I couldn't attack Liliana for lethal. He ticked up Liliana and played Bob the next turn, which out-drew me, and that was that.
Game 2 I remember he had the Inquisition again on turn 1, and Liliana on turn 3. I think he also had the Abrupt decay on turn 2, because he blew up my Vial, and I'm sure it was before he played Liliana... anyway, I played an Aether Vial on turn one, and he cast Inquisition. I can't remember what he took but it must have been my two drop because I remember being disappointed that he disrupted my curve. I had Vial, a two drop, and Aven Mindcensor in my opener. It wasn't the best hand vs him but not worth mulliganing. Anyway, I played land and shipped the turn back, then he did the same. I played my third land and passed, and he Decayed my Vial, then untapped and played Liliana, ticking it up to 4. I flashed in Mindcensor and attacked but didn't draw into any more gas. He must've played a Thoughtseize because my notes have him dropping 2 life before stabilising with Corsair again.
As to the matchup vs BGx, it is difficult for this deck. Their guys are bigger, and they have more card advantage built into their threats. If we get into an attrition battle it's very hard to win. It's quite important to land a Thalia on turn 2 to buy time against Liliana. If you can do that, then follow up with Arbiter + Ghost Quarter, or Blade Splicer, the matchup is a lot easier. The curve of Familiar -> Thalia -> Splicer is good because it puts Liliana on the back foot, and that card has so much value vs us.
I think the GW deck has a better matchup vs them, simply by being able to accelerate with Heirarch. Turn 2 Blade Splicer is very good vs their deck. The one drop creatures in the mono-white list and the GW list are different, but both have a similar function. While the Heirarchs accelerate our mana, the Familiar's act as 'pseudo' acceleration, by setting our opponent back one turn instead of us forward. The analogy doesn't fit perfectly, but I think it's adequate to describe the mono-white list's shortfall with BGx decks. The issue is this: The Heirarchs actually accelerate vs them, but the Familiars don't. Judge's Familiar can't counter Abrupt Decay, and it can't delay Liliana for a turn. While Familiar buys time vs the control decks by slowing them down, it doesn't serve the same function vs BGx. Therefore, the mono-white list is much more reliant on Thalia to help set them back for long enough to gain an edge. As I mentioned above, landing Thalia t2 is pretty crucial, especially if they have the Abrupt Decay -> Liliana hand. Judge's Familiar is good to protect your t2 Thalia, but only if you are on the play, otherwise they will strip it with discard.
Judge's Familiar, however, is fantastic against all the bolt decks, and control / combo decks like Twin and Scapeshift. So like you say, there are solutions that compromise other aspects.
As for sideboarding vs them, I brought in the usual 2 Rest in Peace, the Pithing Needle (for Liliana), and the two Kitchen Finks. I think I sided out Eight-and-a-Half-Tails, two Judge's Familiar, a Flickerwisp, and a Mindcensor.
Judge's Familiar is bad in this matchup but I wanted to have a couple of one drops to sacrifice to Liliana if the need arose. I also didn't want to raise my curve too much. I figured replacing one with Pithing Needle was fine, but I didn't want to drop more than one more 1-drop. The Flickerwisp and Mindcensor became Finks, which can block Bob profitably, and survive a Liliana -2. I know they can't fly over to hit Liliana but I still had 10 fliers in the deck. I'm more worried about getting to the stage where I can swing back against Liliana in the first place. They also buy time vs Goyf, so I can potentially draw Path. The Rest in Peace are self explanatory.
Regarding Eight-and-a-half-tails, I can definitely understand why people don't like it. It's very mana hungry. I think I've been fine with it as a result of having so many basic plains. Running 9 colourless sources is asking a lot I think (even with 7 I have to mulligan sometimes due to an opening seven with no Vial and no white source). Also, the lists with Horizon Canopy have more lands that are sacrificed than my build. Maybe these small differences in the manabase have something to do with peoples' preference, I don't know. For me, the main reason to have it in the main deck is that it's a catchall solution. It provides the deck with a lot more flexibility and utility when it is drawn late game. Mono-white builds seem to be a few cards short of really filling out with the perfect list, and until we get another creature that synergizes well with the rest of the deck, we need to make do with the available choices. I was also expecting more UWr, and being able to blank Path is pretty hot.
I thought about Mutavault and I think it's very strong. I didn't get around to testing with it though, so I wasn't comfortable running it on the day. I wouldn't want to go to more than 8 colourless sources, but I could see dropping a Tec Edge and a Plains for two Mutavaults. I liked having three Tec Edge, though. It's especially good vs Twin and Scapeshift, where all you need to do is apply pressure while keeping them off 5 and 7 mana, respectively. Being able to hit the 4th land is quite good, especially when you don't live the dream with Arbiter + Ghost Quarter. Given that Ghost Quarter is so bad without Arbiter (or Mindcensor), it's sometimes saved for dire circumstances (opposing man lands, Gavony Township, etc). Drawing the Arbiter late when they have 4+ lands in play is underwhelming, as they can still play their 2-drops and leave mana up for Arbiter + Ghost Quarter. Tec Edge just helps to bottleneck them that tiny bit more in the mid game. With Vial at 3 for Flickerwisp and Tec Edge, suddenly Twin can go from 1 turn away from winning to 3+ turns away, and those turns are crucial.
I really like Mutavault, though. I wonder if there is room for a more aggressive build. It might be better in the lists running 2 Brimaz. It seems extremely good in the BW lists running Pack Rat. I think it is worth testing eh? I might drop all the Tec Edges and replace them with Mutavaults just to see how it feels to swing the other way. It might feel a lot better. I think if you're going aggro with Mutavaults you definitely can't afford to leave mana up for Eight-and-a-Half-Tails, so that would be cut.
The Nevermore, yeah. It might seem expensive under Thalia, but my reasoning was this: With Thalia out, Splinter Twin, Scapeshift, and Cryptic Command all cost 5 (Not that Scapeshift will ever be cast with 5 lands in play). Nevermore costs 4. This means that even with Thalia out, you can land Nevermore before your opponent casts their backbreaking card, even on the draw. This is assuming you hit all your land drops, obviously. With Judge's Familiar, Cryptic Command and Scapeshift cost even more, so you have more time to drop lands and cast it. It's incredibly difficult for combo decks to remove, as they barely ever side in bounce. Usually they will side in Ancient Grudge for our Vials and Spellskite, but hardly ever will they side in bounce vs mono white in game 2. Cutting Scapeshift decks of Cryptic Command is also really good (vs the builds that run 4 Command anyway), and you can always use Flickerwisp to reset it to Scapeshift later in the game if they start hitting enough lands to threaten to combo. If you land Nevermore, you can basically force the combo decks to rely on the Batterskull plan in game 2.
Which leads me to Leonin Relic-Warder. Sometimes it's underwhelming, yeah. It's admittedly not the best. But what I like about it is that it takes care of Batterskull in game 2 vs the decks that side it in. Not only that, it's a 'may' trigger, so you often just play it out to increase your clock, then flicker it if they ever hit Batterskull. The downside is that it kinda sucks vs Affinity. What other option would you recommend I test?
No worries, I came here because I want to participate in discussion.
Particularly, I'm currently wondering if anyone has had experience with Eidolon of Rhetoric, specifically in the Burn matchup. It seems like it would slow them down a lot, and 4 toughness is the magic number... I'm having trouble with the Burn matchup, and am looking for a way to shore it up. I heard about someone running Aegis of the Gods vs burn as a 'must answer' threat, on Sunday apparently a Burn player lost to that card but to me it seems pretty terrible, to narrow and probably won't buy much time... What does everyone think of the Eidolon vs Burn?
It may only improve Hatebears, but it will improve it drastically imo. The deck might become more popular... Having said that, Icatian Javelineers is a very elegant solution for Death and Taxes, I agree.
Sorry for the long, rambling reply. I didn't mean to write this much...
Too narrow a solution IMO. You'd think it was good in more match ups, but not really, and it eats 3-4 slots of the side we really can't afford to devote to it. That's why I believe in sideboard cards that are slightly broader in function to stop multiple match ups.
And I have been thinking about this in Standard, Legacy, and Modern: Is it always advantageous or necessary to be synergistic as a control deck? (I am including my long explanation of what I mean below.) Maybe we can move from synergy to non-synergy depending on the match?
Is synergy between our parts needed against combo decks? Don't we just want to maximize our chances of disrupting their combo, thus don't we want the maximum number of individual cards that wreck the combos? What are our combo wreckers? Flickerwisp, Eidolon of Rhetoric, Spellskite, Aven Mindcensor, Path to Exile and Leonin Arbiter, Thalia, land destruction. They stop/tax searching, stop multiple spell playing, remove key threats, and then mana taxing. Blade Splicer is a nice wincon/board manager that works well with Flickerwisp and Resto to make a lot of annoying 3/3s with potential first strike. But is that our best option against combo or control? It is great against UWR Geist and aggro decks, but maybe then it loses value in the other matchups we care about.
And I know I am new to the deck and so I probably am underestimating Splicer (not really, a Splicer with two tokens out is pretty much an uber-wall in Modern and possibly making more tokens makes a heck of a defense against any creature strategy), but maybe that card is not where we want to be. Maybe we want 2 Jotun Grunt and 2 Mirran Crusader main because they are better versus Rock and Jund?
I don't know. I just know that a card like Gryff is an opportunity rethink the best way to take the deck forward.
TLDR Section
Synergistic vs. non-Synergistic Decks:
What I mean by synergy, for those who don't know, is the idea that the various parts of the deck reinforce and get stronger from each other and if they do not play nicely together, they make the plays exponentially worse.
On a scale, I would say the most synergistic decks are tempo or aggro-control decks, like anything ever Delver or Mono-U in Standard. Everything is about getting out a threat and then disrupting your opponent as you ding them every turn. That is why Delver of Secrets and Tarmogoyf are perfect tempo creatures, backed up by a lot of counter magic, versatile targeted removal, and possibly hand destruction for disruption or burn for reach.
Control decks are next, since typically you don't want any aspect of your control methods to negate any of the other control methods. This is why creature-based board control doesn't play well with sweepers and counter spells typical of a draw-go style, because it wants a full creature base and it doesn't want to tap out. However, both utilize targeted removal and both want to keep the opponent from doing much of anything effective until inevitability sets in for the control player.
Fast aggro decks are typically only synergistic at the level of wanting constant damage output, but any non-creature, non-burn spells they play are meant to boost damage output ASAP. Think Infect, Sligh, white weenie. I would say that Affinity is the most synergistic an aggro deck can be.
Synergy almost completely disappears with mid-range decks. These are the classic "good stuff" decks: play the best cards (especially creatures) in the format, to heck with synergy. Mid-Range comes in two flavors: Beatdown and Control. Jund is pretty much always Mid-range, running a combination of the best creatures, some ramp, and enough removal to beat aggro in the short game until they can stabilize with creatures, and hand destruction and possibly some burn to mitigate the ability of control to stop them in the mid-long game. GRx Monsters, Rock, Junk, Jund and Mono-B Devotion are the monsters of the mid-range (moving, btw, from most Beatdown-ish to most Control-ish.)
Combo is weird because all it wants to do is survive until it hits the combo. The combo is itself the ultimate synergistic move, but its way of surviving until it hits the combo can be utterly u-synergistic. It just needs to get to the combo and then it wins. And combo can come in a large number of styles (I think of combo as a way of hitting your wincon layered onto a deck type, so Elves is an aggro combo, Pod is a mid-range combo,Storm is a control combo, etc.)
So... are we the kind of control deck that can be less synergistic? Do we need the synergy of Blade Splicer + Flickerwisp + Resto Angel? Or is there a place in the Mono-W side for Gryff despite its negative impact because it increases our chances of effective disruption in certain matches to such a high degree?
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
As for what id take over relic warder, I'd go with sundering growth. The populate is a great tempo swing and it's a permanent answer which is fantastic.
Thanks for the great reply, sorry this is short in answering from my phone!
1. I don't think it's going to be terribly widely adopted. It's rare there are white builds that don't need resto. It's going to be sort of like spirit of the labyrinth in legacy; good effect, still not worth it.
2. Yes hatebears will run it, and yes it will be a serious threat. Our removal is already strained against them, so this isn't great news. I look forward to seeing what they cut though, and if it becomes prolific enough, we may end up keeping more removal and beaters side to put in in response.
3. We cannot move away from bounce effects without a splash for some form of card advantage. White simply relies on etb effects to gain value because it has no draw. Whether this means more GW builds and BW builds running confidant, I don't know. If you cut the bounce and flicker though, you remove a lot of our tempo game so it almost becomes a weak midrange deck. It's also worth noting mono white doesn't have the mana sink splashes have such as gavony, pack rat, and vault of the archangel. Our deck becomes stupidly inefficient without bounce effects for value because of this. Now there COULD be a solution that's been tested here before running a blue splash for celestial collonade, but I don't think that alone will be enough to make up for the loss of value.
Lastly, again, torpor orb didn't kill us and that can be run in any deck and is harder to remove. This will be run in LESS decks and is EASIER to remove. It's a hatebears/UWR answer to twin, nothing more IMO. Over all, stick to your guns and accept that every deck in modern has it's kryptonite. Just be happy ours isn't the hardest to deal with.
From one of the more experienced hate bear players on the thread:
"I don't think Hushwing Gryff is very good. Sure, it has Flash and a relevant ability, but I don't think it's good for the Modern met. There are two decks we would primarily want to run this for: Pod and Twin. Against Pod, Gryff is only good in response to casting a creature, and is horrible as a response to Pod. You have to respond to the Pod activation, which means they can get whatever else is beneficial to them instead of card x. Against Twin, the x/1 body is not going to survive very long. If he is the only thing stopping the combo, you're probably not going to have more than a turn or two before they draw into removal.
It's not bad, but I don't think it's as good as people are saying. I've been wrong before though."
I know he doesn't speak for everyone, and may end up wrong, but it's certainly good to see doubt cast from the group most likely to run it.
I might be reading you wrong, and if so I'm sorry about that, but I think maybe you're make it sound like we're sacrificing card quality for the synergy. While the synergies (which are primarily producing more Golems and reusing Flickerwisps with Restoration Angel) is a nifty part of that package, I would like to stress that the reason it works is that each of those three cards are great on their own. We're really not sacrificing anything other than a weakness for Torbor Orb and Gryff. We don't see Orb that often and I expect to see Gryff less, we have ways to deal with them and we can still win with them on the board. The only card that is rendered completely useless by Orb/Gryff is Splicer.
Let's evaluate these cards without the synergies:
Blade Splicer gives you two bodies for one card, and that has a very good clutter effect. The 1/1 might not seem like a whole lot without the omnipresent threat of flickering it, but I find that a 1/1 and a 3/3 is often better than a 4/4. Besides, no threat of flickering is kind of a non-scenario because even with Orb/Gryff out, everyone knows that the first thing we'll do if/when we manage to deal with Orb/Gryff is to flicker it. I see my opponent scratching his head trying to figure out whether to hit Golem or Splicer almost every time, and I'm glad it's not me that's stuck with that decision. Against control they have to remove both somehow, they can't let us keep a 1/1 to grind them down with, so our one card either requires two removal spells or forces out a board wipe, keeping us one card further away from overextending into a Verdict/Electrolyze/Anger of the Gods. It's two-for-one at its very best.
Restoration Angel would be a good card even without the flicker effect. A 3/4 flier with flash is a great deal, both of the abilities and the four toughness is extremely well positioned in the meta. The flicker effect is not just there for Splicer and Flickerwisp, it can and will often be used simply to let another creature dodge removal.
Flickerwisp... I can just scratch the surface here, or it's going to run too long. Most of it is in the primer, but there are so many corner cases where it's useful that I'm still discovering new ones. It steals me weird wins all the time. I've targeted Emrakul with it and won because of it. Thought nothing could hit Emrakul? Read it again. I've reset Pyromancer Ascension, buying me enough time to win. I've reset Oozes with it, vialed it in to stop a lethal Cranial Plating attack. I've killed Wurm and Elemental tokens. I've vialed it in end of my turn to hold a board wipe off for an extra turn, or to deny my opponent to use Liliana's sac effect for a turn. I recently vialed one in to stop Twin from comboing off three times in the same game. You could write a damn book about this thing. With Resto/Splicer/Vial I would run six or seven if it wasn't against the rules, and even with Vial only I would still run a number of wisps.
So, you're asking, do we need the Blade Splicer / Restoration Angel / Flickerwisp package? In my opinion, yes. My view is that those cards (plus Vial) is the spine of the deck. We have three creatures that are very good each by their own, and incredible when we're running them all. I can't imagine anything to hate out with Gryff that would be worth giving this package up. Until I see Orb/Gryff in at least every third matchup, I'm not cutting them. I'd rather add cards to deal with Orb/Gryff than cut those cards.
Edit: I realize that I'm being a conservative voice here, and in no way do I wish to discourage you from rethinking what this deck could be. Go ahead and try to prove me wrong, I'd love nothing more. You have my full support.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
I agree with Sheepz here. 3 Slots for Leyline is difficult. I side in the Forge-Tender package at the moment, so that helps wall their early creatures, but I'm just looking for a potential 1-2 more cards that also have application in other matches. I can see running Eidolon of Rhetoric because it's also good vs Storm decks. Aegis of the Gods and Mark of Asylum is a good lock vs Burn, but I would never want to reply on drawing BOTH 1-of cards. Aegis and Burrenton Forge-Tender can necessitate them using two removal spells, but I think Eidolon would buy more time (and you wouldn't have to sacrifice Forge-Tender).
Both good ideas. I should've thought about Blade Splicer, because that exact thing happened to me in game 1 (getting walled by Corsair). I was too focused on it producing multiple bodies for Liliana.
Sundering growth actually sounds really good. I'll have to try it out, for sure. Populate sounds amazing if you have Blade Splicer out, which I can imagine would be relevant enough for it to matter.
Vialed wisp is gonna save a creature or creature value on etb somehow anyway, but flies. Moral of the story; glory to the flickerwisp, for he is our lord and savior, and shall never pass on to the great sideboard beyond, for his work is never done.
Amen.
1. Separate out the different match ups. I would like a file with JUST the information on Jund, UWR, Merfolk, etc.
2. Create a report card of sorts. This will show what match ups we are over and under performing in, and adjust accordingly.
3. Label the timeline with expansion releases/bans, for further segmentation capabilities.
I hope you guys will at least take a peek at the file to see what I'm dealing with, so you'll understand if some of these take a considerable amount of time.
It's because IT'S 350 PAGES AND 88,385 WORDS LONG
I think Hushwing Gryff will put this deck more on the map itself and is a clear 4-of. It is a hard no to both premier combo decks in the format (Twin and Pod, because it stops Deceiver Exarch/Pestermite/Restoration Angel/Kitchen Finks/Murderous Redcap from triggering), which are both stellar tier 1 strategies due to the little recourse other decks have against them. It also stops Snapcaster Mage, and while there are fewer practical scenarios where you can "get them" against Snapcaster versus the others mentioned, it generates a card's worth of value and great tempo when it happens.
Blade Splicer and Flickerwisp are hurt by the inclusion of Gryff, but Restoration Angel is still stellar because it has flash, 4 toughness, and flying. Restoration Angel generates external value only about half the time anyway. Not being able to save Gryff with Resto is currently a concern of mine. Luckily Gryff, Flickerwisp, and Blade Splicer all cost three so we can switch them without affecting the curve.
Leonin Arbiter's potential disruption can be somewhat compensated by Gryff against Pod. Rather than trying to tax them for Pod activations, you can just jam Gryff in response to it, or even see what they go and get, and then stop the iteration if they try to combo.
In my opinion, Leonin Arbiter is not good enough because there are only a few scenarios where he generates external value, which are in turn all improbable, unnatural lines of play to assume for your opponent. Pod generates enough mana to just play through it, fetchlands naturally avoid it by being played first. Not much other searching happens in the format, and Aven Mindcensor is more effective on the same axis at generating real value.
My real issue with Leonin Arbiter is that he is just a Grizzly Bear; too much of the time it's far below modern-playable power level. It might seem good that he draws removal the way he does when you're curving out, but when it's your two-drop that gets efficiently 1-for-1'ed, that's when aggro really loses a lot of tempo and can't push through.
People play around it when you go Plains > AEther Vial. So isn't it all the better if you don't have it in your deck?
Hatebears is absolutely the deck you're looking for here, not death and taxes. Hushwing won't see play in a death and taxes list, I garunntee it. Hatebears however is having a good discussion on the subject last I checked and may very well adopt it as a four off!
Mono white almost as a rule runs a minimum of 12 flicker effects. Resto, splicer, and flickerwisp. Flickerwisp is hands down the best card death and taxes plays. Hushwing shuts all of these off. The thing about mono white is it does haven't have card draw, so it has to create advantage through value plays, such as bouncing and flickering, or playing powerful effects to shut off opposing cards such as stony silence. Hushwing is a good card. It just isn't good enough to make me cut my 12 best cards good. The primer really explains all this a lot better than here, I have to apologize I'm in my phone at the moment.
IMO, Spellskite is not something I would ever board in from Wx D&T and something I would be exceptionally happy in most circumstances seeing played against me. Jund is not, even post board, a typically "threat dense" deck. Often it includes 13-14 creatures main and 3-4 manlands. Post board that likely increases by 2-4 dependent on what's in the board; however, people may bring in 2-4 Fulminators for manlands or utility lands in specific circumstances. When you consider the fact that 4 of those creatures are Dark Confidant (which is less likely to block or attack except against a naked board), spending a card for what is essentially an 0/4 wall with a semi-relevant ability is often just worse than having any other actual threatening creature.
To explain cutting an Aether Vial I've got to go into some math. Odds of opening handing an Aether Vial with 4 in the deck are:
7 card hand 39.95%
6 card hand 35.15%
5 card hand 30.06%
However with 3 in the deck it is:
7 card hand 31.54%
6 card hand 27.52%
5 card hand 23.33%
With 2 in the deck:
7 card hand 22.15%
6 card hand 19.15%
5 card hadn 16.10%
My experience with the matchup is that in Wx "hate bears" type decks, it's often a tempo game for Wx and a Control/Grindy type game for GBx. Being able to Vial in Flickerwisp or Angel can be a nice boost, but most of what jund will do is trade 1:1 while trying to eek out mimimal advantages. We still have to try and kill specific cards (notably Bladesplicer and Arbiter) at essentially Sorcery speed (similar to dealing with Infect) to avoid Angel/Flickerwisp blowouts. The difference is that Wx "hate bears" strategies often play 21-23 land (usually 22 or 23) and 4 vials whereas we play only 24 lands, this gives us 3 extra "actual spells" in the deck. So the point of cutting a vial or two isn't so that you can do extra tricks like sliding a creature in post Anger or protecting from a removal spell; it's more so to up your "card" count to closer meet ours while not eliminating your "mana" base. One of the great things about Jund, is that Vial itself is very rarely an actual threat unless it's in multiples with the right creatures in hand. However, because of Liliana and some discard those type of hands are low percentage (it also means drawing fewer land and more creatures); so when those hands come up we'll often be able to regain tempo with Abrupt Decay and/or Maelstrom Pulse which can lock out a land hand.
So the thing I think many of you are missing is that while Vial helps you trade card advantage for tempo; because Jund is so adept at dealing with tempo in a wide variety of ways (terminate, Slaughter Pact, Abrupt Decay, Bolt, Goyf/Ooze beats, Discard, Liliana, etc.) it will often be more correct to cut the cards which help us stabilize because they are "non-factors" or "low impact" cards. It's the same principle of why Spellskite is so bad. They both often do very little against us so side out some/all of the Vials. Additionally by keeping the all the vials, your chance of drawing a non-vial card for each turn decreases by about 2% (give or take) per draw for every vial you keep in. It's kind of funny how I think statistically speaking most everyone plays 4 vials automatically however math tends to favor playing 3.
All this is said though coming from a Jund player. I see different aspects of what I think is good. Overall, I think GW Hatebears is probably better than most variants of Death and Taxes because they often will get better utility out of their lands while maintaining a core of useful tricks. Plus their mana accelerators have relevance in the mid to late game due to Gavony. I'm actually really tempted to try out a variant with Fauna Shaman because it looks really fun and spicy.
edit: If I'm not explaining things well, I often have a meandering mind and stop mid-thought to pick up something else. So I can try to explain different points better if you have specific questions.
3 Judge's Familiar
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Pack Rat
4 Flickerwisp
3 Blade Splicer
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Mangara of Corondor
2 Restoration Angel
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
//Land
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Tectonic Edge
2 Mutavault
4 Godless Shrine
2 Caves of Koilos
2 Isolated Chapel
1 Eiganjo Castle
4 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Stony Silence
3 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Rest in Peace
2 Patrician's Scorn
1 Celestial Flare
1 Pithing Needle
1 Dismember
For those asking about Eidolon of Rhetoric against burn, yes, it's very good. I test a lot against burn, and I routinely side it in. It also basically wins the game against Storm. Just don't block a Goblin Electromancer with it, because you are just asking to get bolted.
Patrician's Scorn and Celestial Flare are a nod to Bogles in my meta. People love that deck here for some reason. If I get to the venue and don't see many Bogles, I will probably change those into dismembers and Mark of Asylum, or something. The Mangara will probably turn back into the 3rd Resto Angel. I have a soft spot for that card because of legacy, but in reality it's just not as good in this format with no Karakas.
As much as I like the consistency of the mono white build, Tidehollow Sculler and Pack Rat have been amazing to me in past (and current) standards, and seem invaluably good in testing. Pack Rat even helps the aggressive matchups. If they can't kill you before he comes down, the rats get out of control. Mutavault is great here too for that reason.
Any suggestions and help with the build would be great.
Standard: B/x Devotion
Modern: Death & Taxes
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I like the 2/1 Muta/Edge split. Rat is what takes Mutavault from "meh" to "yeah" in my book, but I never ever cut the last Edge.
Not a huge fan of Mangara, I'd run another Resto over her, but I'm sure you made a concious choice there. I'd definitely run a second Dismember over Flare if I had black mana available, it's a huge perk with BW.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
thanks for the info! I'll use it to help write a bit about jund. The reason 4 vial is TYPICALLY better is we really need it to fix our shaky mana bases, but with jund games going long it might be worth taking out. I like that idea and not decreasing our threat density.
I've run the black splash a long time, more notes on it are in the primer (At the end) but here my current list:
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
Creatures 29
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Blade Splicer
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4 Flickerwisp
4 Restoration Angel
4 Pack Rat
4 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Vault of the Archangel
4 Ghost Quarters
4 Godless Shrine
1 Fetid Heath
2 Tectonic Edge
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Dismember
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Mark of Asylum
2 Spellskite
1 Pithing needle
1 EIdolon of Rhetoric
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
1 Engineered Explosive
My thoughts on your deck are this, cut mangara for a rat, I'm NEVER sad to top deck rat. Beats 1-1 removal, and is a threat that can get out of anger range real quick. I've been meaning to adopt mutavaults like you, I just haven't gotten around to purchasing and testing them, but I will. I would eliminate isolated chapel for shizo, death's storehouse, and cavern of souls. We CANNOT afford to have lands come into play tapped. Souls means we just WIN some match ups like delver no problem, and gives us an out other than vial against blue decks. Lastly, I'd really like Engineered Explosives and mark of asylum in the side there somewhere, as well as either another dismember or slaughter pact (for twin). Best of luck! Let me know if you have any other questions!