@Heretix or Sasky
You do realize we have mirran crusader for green and black creature with double strike and with 1WW cc (better than BSA that 3WW cc) ?
I Love BSA as creature and her abilites but I still disagree with her cc that is 3WW. It's make DnT a LongGame deck not a midgame deck
Well any argue is open
That's been my findings with D&T though, that the games with D&T frequently goes long even with the aggro builds. As mentioned in my writeup, a "wall" like Smiter or a simple Goyf appears and suddenly the game stalls. Do you swing with the Mirran and try to race them? They'll smash in for 4 minimum, but probably for 5 as they have Noble Hierarchs too. Against decks like Affinity, the taxes don't work and we generally can't race them.
But land a Baneslayer and the whole thing changes. Suddenly, they can't swing at all. Affinity's flyers will die to the BSA even with Cranial Plating on, unless they have the double-black to reattach.
I know BSA may seem strange in this deck on a theoretical level, especially since it can't ramp, but in my test games for about a 1-2 months now, it has worked. I hope you guys will give this deck a whirl and see how it works, so we may work on this midrange version of D&T together.
Just throwing this out there, I've been running a black and white version of this deck using orzhov pontiff, horoki, and tidescullers over inquisitors and have had absurd amounts of success. My one question is is there a reason other than consistency to run finks over messenger typically? Also is there a reason to not one off horizon canopy?
Ps: I have a fair sized spreadsheet of data on testing with the deck, but it's without some key changes I intend on making and it's all from the tournament practice room (best free way to test for me IMO if someone knows better let me know) I would be willing to post it and show my results though if there is any interest at all.
I realized it has elements of the mana denial/control build and elements of more aggro builds, but commits to neither. My preference was for more of a control build, so I'm thinking this might be more to my taste:
This seems a bit more versatile and controlling. It goes farther in the board lockdown strategy and has a much more flexible sideboard. The curve is a bit weird though. Thoughts?
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“Modern has provided us a non-rotating format that is far more accessible than Legacy or Vintage, but still retains many of the qualities that people enjoy in those formats—such as a more stable metagame, the ability to play and tweak the same deck week after week, and simply a much more powerful card pool than Standard.”
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
Just throwing this out there, I've been running a black and white version of this deck using orzhov pontiff, horoki, and tidescullers over inquisitors and have had absurd amounts of success. My one question is is there a reason other than consistency to run finks over messenger typically?
Yea, the reason you want finks is that it is so good against ground based fast aggro, and the fact that messenger comes into play tapped really hurts it's utility in that area. Also, not only are you blocking an attack, and perhaps killing a creature, but you are actually gaining life which means a tempo loss for aggro.
Also is there a reason to not one off horizon canopy?
No, you might even get away with two.
Ps: I have a fair sized spreadsheet of data on testing with the deck, but it's without some key changes I intend on making and it's all from the tournament practice room (best free way to test for me IMO if someone knows better let me know) I would be willing to post it and show my results though if there is any interest at all.
The information couldn't hurt certainly, but since the events are not verfiable it might not swat too many people.
Thank you! That's a good point with the finks, I just like messenger as a good come back to boardwipes, but I will try maindecking finks over it and stick one or two horizon canopies in. I would of course scrub the data to keep names out, but honestly I feel it would be better to gather data with dailies over that anyway once I've smoothed out the list. It would certainly feel more legitimate to be putting good numbers up there than the tourney practice room anyway.
Things I would like to do: -1 oblivion ring and 1 hero's downfall side for two spellskite (I need a good out for bogles) 2 messenger for 2 finks main? -1 finks side for a mirran crusader side from main, and main -1 mirran -1 mask of memories for 2 brimaz, -2 plains for two horizon canopies. I MAY want to go up a pontiff too since it's been amazing for me.
what are peoples opinions on swapping phyrexian revoker for spellskite? spellskite seems like it might be better with more zoo and bogles decks around. i just dont feel like revoker really handles anything the rest of the deck doesn't, whereas spellskite seems like it would shore up a lot of matches.
what are peoples opinions on swapping phyrexian revoker for spellskite? spellskite seems like it might be better with more zoo and bogles decks around. i just dont feel like revoker really handles anything the rest of the deck doesn't, whereas spellskite seems like it would shore up a lot of matches.
LOL, since I don't run Revoker in my 75 in any of my decks, and I love Spellskite in several of them, I would rather Skite if bogles and burn heavy zoo end up being heavy in your meta. It is way easier to tailor to a give situation.
Currently running 1 Spellskite main deck, 1 in the board. Twin, Bogle and Infect really don't like Spellskite, and decks like RWU that run a lot of removal can have difficult times getting around it to kill your Bears. He is also conveniently an 0/4, which happens to be good against Zoo as well.
I never really liked revoker, in the match ups I really want it always just seems to die. Spellskite is by FAR the biggest oversight of my deck haha. It's a wonderful card that shores up all the match ups you want it to. I'd really like more x/4s in the list, and this is a perfect fit.
I just like messenger as a good come back to boardwipes
Thoughts on Xathrid Necromancer? Easier casting cost and you run a health amount of humans.
Creature base is too split and I really am not a fan of anything that doesn't give immediate value in this deck. while flashing it in as another human dies IS value, and it DOES replace itself, I feel that that interaction is a little too cute. I already run my horoki as a risk, i don't wanna stray too far from the strong base.
Thanks for all your answers/help fellas. i have never played with or against d&t, all my experience in modern comes from bug infect and melira pod, but i have always been a fan of this type of deck. how does my list look so far? as always any help is appreciated.
I would like to see some Restoration Angels in there in place of Hero of Bladehold. It fits your deck much better with Kitchen Finks, Blade Splicer and Wall of Omens, on top of being a utility card for saving your dudes against removal. I would even cut a wisp to run 3 of them. The only downshide is that you can't bounce Serra Avenger, but with that only being a 2 of in your build, I think you should be just fine.
I'm a bigger fan of Sword of War and Peace than Light and Shadow. Running it as a 1/1 split seems good.
1x Eiganjo Castle can help save Thalia and Kataki from time to time. Horizon Canopy can help give you some draw if you need it too. I know it's pricy, but they can help keep your deck going in the mid-late game if you can acquire them somehow.
I'm not sure what your meta game is like, but I don't know how effective Devout Lightcaster is going to be. Especially casting WWW when running 8 colorless lands, you are going to have problems consistently getting this out. Brave the Elements also seems too narrow. If you're looking to avoid red sweepers, Burrenton Forge-Tender plays better with Thalia, and can swing for damage too. I also like Torpor Orb a lot right now.
It seems really narrow. Against most decks it would only be a worse Accorder Paladin. Although I do hate Sphinx's Revelation, so it might not be bad to sideboard if you expect RWU Control to be a major part of your meta.
Thanks for all your answers/help fellas. i have never played with or against d&t, all my experience in modern comes from bug infect and melira pod, but i have always been a fan of this type of deck. how does my list look so far? as always any help is appreciated.
Honestly I never liked avenger but I know others do. I would however not even think about running this list without four flickerwisps. As you play more with the deck you'll see how many bad situations those can pull you out of. Also personally I'd prefer sword of war and peace. Lastly, hero of bladeholm feels win more to me, but having guys who survive bolt is important. Consider swapping one for a resto. Also personally I like jotun grunt over rest in peace and you could use a needle or two side. Kataki vs stony silence is a hard call. I'm still undecided which is better.
I'm not sure what your meta game is like, but I don't know how effective Devout Lightcaster is going to be. Especially casting WWW when running 8 colorless lands, you are going to have problems consistently getting this out. Brave the Elements also seems too narrow. If you're looking to avoid red sweepers, Burrenton Forge-Tender plays better with Thalia, and can swing for damage too. I also like Torpor Orb a lot right now.
lightcaster is mostly a vial target(not worried about hard casting it really) i ran it in my melira pod because theres lots of liliana and stuff in my meta and its always served me well. forge tender will def be replacing brave the elements. isnt torpor orb gonna screw with my flicker effects? ive also been looking at Ethersworn Canonist but im n0t sure what match-ups that will even help with, seems like it would hurt me as much as them
You're right. Torpor Orb does hurt your deck. I was thinking about cards to hate on Pod and Twin. Maybe something like Dampening Matrix if you don't mind boarding out Vials and Swords? Suppression Field has been brought up recently as well.
Run pithing needles. Shuts off pod, leaves vial, is cheaper and is good against a wide variety of decks. I've never struggled too bad against pod between that, land destruction and search hate. Works against twin too, but honestly the real threat of twin is getting out tempo'd not
Combo'd out.
You're right. Torpor Orb does hurt your deck. I was thinking about cards to hate on Pod and Twin. Maybe something like Dampening Matrix if you don't mind boarding out Vials and Swords? Suppression Field has been brought up recently as well.
what you said earlier about flickering the avengers just popped back in my head. would inquisitor exarch be the best replacement if i wanted to keep it a 2 drop? if so, should i run 2 or find room for a 3rd? or is all this flickering just waaaaay too cute?
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That's been my findings with D&T though, that the games with D&T frequently goes long even with the aggro builds. As mentioned in my writeup, a "wall" like Smiter or a simple Goyf appears and suddenly the game stalls. Do you swing with the Mirran and try to race them? They'll smash in for 4 minimum, but probably for 5 as they have Noble Hierarchs too. Against decks like Affinity, the taxes don't work and we generally can't race them.
But land a Baneslayer and the whole thing changes. Suddenly, they can't swing at all. Affinity's flyers will die to the BSA even with Cranial Plating on, unless they have the double-black to reattach.
I know BSA may seem strange in this deck on a theoretical level, especially since it can't ramp, but in my test games for about a 1-2 months now, it has worked. I hope you guys will give this deck a whirl and see how it works, so we may work on this midrange version of D&T together.
Bant | U Tron | GW Hatebears | Death and Taxes | Scapeshift | UW Tron | UW Midrange
Ps: I have a fair sized spreadsheet of data on testing with the deck, but it's without some key changes I intend on making and it's all from the tournament practice room (best free way to test for me IMO if someone knows better let me know) I would be willing to post it and show my results though if there is any interest at all.
4 Ghost Quarter
16 Plains
3 Tectonic Edge
Creatures (27)
3 Soldier of the Panthenon
2 Jötun Grunt
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Serra Avenger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Blade Splicer
4 Flickerwisp
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Silverblade Paladin
2 Restoration Angel
4 Æther Vial
2 Mask of Memory
Instants (4)
4 Path to Exile
3 Dryad Militant
3 Spellskite
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Stonecloaker
I realized it has elements of the mana denial/control build and elements of more aggro builds, but commits to neither. My preference was for more of a control build, so I'm thinking this might be more to my taste:
1 Eiganjo Castle
4 Ghost Quarter
15 Plains
3 Tectonic Edge
Creatures (27)
3 Dryad Militant
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Jötun Grunt
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Blade Splicer
4 Flickerwisp
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Restoration Angel
4 Æther Vial
Instants (4)
4 Path to Exile
Enchantments (2)
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Grand Abolisher
2 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Spellskite
2 Aura of Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Stonecloaker
This seems a bit more versatile and controlling. It goes farther in the board lockdown strategy and has a much more flexible sideboard. The curve is a bit weird though. Thoughts?
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
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3 Caves of Koilos
3 Eldrazi Temple
2 Fetid Heath
3 Godless Shrine
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Plains
3 Shambling Vent
2 Tectonic Edge
Artifacts (4):
4 Æther Vial
4 Path to Exile
Creatures (29):
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Wasteland Strangler
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Flooded Strand
6 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
Creatures (16):
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stormchaser Mage
2 Gut Shot
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mutagenic Growth
3 Spell Pierce
3 Twisted Image
3 Vapor Snag
Sorceries (8):
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Blood Moon
2 Dispel
1 Forked Bolt
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Repeal
2 Roast
1 Spell Snare
2 Spellskite
1 Vapor Snag
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Copperline Gorge
5 Mountain
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
Creatures (14):
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Atarka's Command
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Searing Blaze
Sorceries (8):
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
2 Deflecting Palm
4 Destructive Revelry
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Path to Exile
2 Rending Volley
3 Skullcrack
19 Forest
3 Treetop Village
Creatures (24):
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Dryad Militant
2 Dungrove Elder
4 Experiment One
4 Leatherback Baloth
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Rancor
Instants (10):
3 Aspect of Hydra
4 Vines of Vastwood
3 Dismember
2 Choke
2 Gut Shot
2 Deglamer
2 Feed the Clan
2 Oxidize
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Skylasher
1 Unravel the Æther
The information couldn't hurt certainly, but since the events are not verfiable it might not swat too many people.
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4x Isolated Chapel
4x Godless Shrine
4x Ghost Quarter
2x Cavern of Souls
5x Plains
2x Tectonic Edge
1x Vault of the Archangel
1x Eiganjo Castle
27 Creatures
3x Blade Splicer
2x Orzhov Pontiff
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Leonin Arbiter
1x Mirran Crusader
1x Restoration Angel
4x Tidehollow Sculler
2x Aven Mindcensor
2x Geralf's Messenger
4x Flickerwisp
2x Hokori, Dust Drinker
1x Mask of Memory
1x Sword of War and Peace
4x Æther Vial
4 Instants
4x Path to Exile
1x Mirran Crusader
2x Pithing Needle
1x Hero's Downfall
2x Oblivion Ring
1x Kitchen Finks
4x Inquisitor Exarch
2x Stony Silence
2x Jotun Grunt
Things I would like to do: -1 oblivion ring and 1 hero's downfall side for two spellskite (I need a good out for bogles) 2 messenger for 2 finks main? -1 finks side for a mirran crusader side from main, and main -1 mirran -1 mask of memories for 2 brimaz, -2 plains for two horizon canopies. I MAY want to go up a pontiff too since it's been amazing for me.
Thoughts?
Thoughts on Xathrid Necromancer? Easier casting cost and you run a health amount of humans.
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Side note;
Creature base is too split and I really am not a fan of anything that doesn't give immediate value in this deck. while flashing it in as another human dies IS value, and it DOES replace itself, I feel that that interaction is a little too cute. I already run my horoki as a risk, i don't wanna stray too far from the strong base.
3 Aven Mindcensor
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Flickerwisp
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Hero of Bladehold
3 Blade Splicer
3 Wall of Omens
2 Serra Avenger
4 Aether Vial
2 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Tectonic Edge
15 Plains
2 Devout Lightcaster
2 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Brave the Elements
2 Rest in Peace
2 Spellskite
2 Mirran Crusader
I'm a bigger fan of Sword of War and Peace than Light and Shadow. Running it as a 1/1 split seems good.
1x Eiganjo Castle can help save Thalia and Kataki from time to time. Horizon Canopy can help give you some draw if you need it too. I know it's pricy, but they can help keep your deck going in the mid-late game if you can acquire them somehow.
I'm not sure what your meta game is like, but I don't know how effective Devout Lightcaster is going to be. Especially casting WWW when running 8 colorless lands, you are going to have problems consistently getting this out. Brave the Elements also seems too narrow. If you're looking to avoid red sweepers, Burrenton Forge-Tender plays better with Thalia, and can swing for damage too. I also like Torpor Orb a lot right now.
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Honestly I never liked avenger but I know others do. I would however not even think about running this list without four flickerwisps. As you play more with the deck you'll see how many bad situations those can pull you out of. Also personally I'd prefer sword of war and peace. Lastly, hero of bladeholm feels win more to me, but having guys who survive bolt is important. Consider swapping one for a resto. Also personally I like jotun grunt over rest in peace and you could use a needle or two side. Kataki vs stony silence is a hard call. I'm still undecided which is better.
lightcaster is mostly a vial target(not worried about hard casting it really) i ran it in my melira pod because theres lots of liliana and stuff in my meta and its always served me well. forge tender will def be replacing brave the elements. isnt torpor orb gonna screw with my flicker effects? ive also been looking at Ethersworn Canonist but im n0t sure what match-ups that will even help with, seems like it would hurt me as much as them
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Combo'd out.
what you said earlier about flickering the avengers just popped back in my head. would inquisitor exarch be the best replacement if i wanted to keep it a 2 drop? if so, should i run 2 or find room for a 3rd? or is all this flickering just waaaaay too cute?