So I have been playing this deck on Mtgo for the past couple of days now, but I am having a really hard time with Emrakul combos (Either Goryo's Vengence or Through the Breach decks) as they usually win by turn 3-4. The 12-post match-up is fine.
Is there a good, cheap card that we can combat these combo's?
Edit:
Just off the top of my head, all I can think of is Ensnaring Bridge.
So I have been playing this deck on Mtgo for the past couple of days now, but I am having a really hard time with Emrakul combos (Either Goryo's Vengence or Through the Breach decks) as they usually win by turn 3-4. The 12-post match-up is fine.
Is there a good, cheap card that we can combat these combo's?
Edit:
Just off the top of my head, all I can think of is Ensnaring Bridge.
That's a match up I haven't played before... options could be maybe:
The cards depend largely on how they're getting the combo off (ramping rituals? digging/discarding with an activated ability, etc.) Some of those cards just slow it down, and others could be really useful but don't offer as much utility against other decks. I'm not sure how those decks are going to flesh out in larger numbers... Best of luck!
EDIT: Quick note about the Combo Elves match up... it's definitely not bad. Granted, I've only tested it about 3 times. Play a Revoker naming Heritage Druid, spot removal on Ezuri, or exile their Cloudstone Curio... there are lots of ways to deny them and we control the skies. I would say that is a good match up.
So I have been playing this deck on Mtgo for the past couple of days now, but I am having a really hard time with Emrakul combos (Either Goryo's Vengence or Through the Breach decks) as they usually win by turn 3-4. The 12-post match-up is fine.
Is there a good, cheap card that we can combat these combo's?
Edit:
Just off the top of my head, all I can think of is Ensnaring Bridge.
Again ethersworn cannist needs to be in the main deck. It stops half of the emrakul combos, all of the storm deck, all of the pyromancers ascension decks, elves, slows zoo down. (see tons of 1 drops) It really doesn't slow you down since this deck is essentially 1 spell per turn.
Oh and kitchen finks is a house against zoo, but this deck should have a decent matchup against any fair aggro deck. Its the combo and aggro combo decks that are tough.
12 post
storm
pyro ascension
Kiki-Twin
Affinity
I would also recommend a light blue splash to help with this. You would be surprised what a spell pierce or two will do against combo decks. Also meddling mage is quite good right now.
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@slip: UW does seem to be doing well, but i personally like mono W better.
@daug: i shall move the elves matchup to medium; my experience is that it isn't "good". also, the list that isn't in a spoiler in the OP is my current list. what you suggest i take out to test finks? everything seems so good (and don't say revoker. that dude is an all-star. i'm thinking of moving him up to 4 MD).
@dues: i haven't played much against that as well. but generally o-ring and mangara can deal with emrakul if it's a combo that doesn't give him haste. if it is a combo that gives him haste, you can at least vial in 'wisp to bounce him, but beyond that i don't know. ensnaring bridge would kinda hurt us a lot, so i'm not sure that is the best choice. legacy D+T plays a single phyrexian metamorph in a enlightened tutor package, as it kills both emrakul and prog. all in all i'm not sure how big a problem emy is though, as it doesn't seem hugely popular.
Has anyone though about running Rule of Law in the sideboard? A lot harder for combo to deal with than Cannonist as it doesn't die to their burn spells.
Has anyone though about running Rule of Law in the sideboard? A lot harder for combo to deal with than Cannonist as it doesn't die to their burn spells.
I considered it but was turned off by the 3cc. Storm decks can go off as early as Turn 2, and no matter if you're on the draw or play 3cc is just too slow. Generally it's better to land something and hope they don't have removal than not to land anything at all. Also, Canonists can help you get the win faster before they find an answer, and they can also be vialed in to surprise them.
@Tom88: I would just suggest you play with my list. That does mean taking out one Mindcensor and the three Revokers. Yes, Revoker is fantastic, but on Game 1 he doesn't stop anything that Zoo or 12-Post throw your way. Maybe he ruins Expedition Map but I'm not sure that card is as popular as it once was. Revoker doesn't stop Pyromancer Ascension either. What it can do is slow down Splinter Twin combos, but you can't even name Splinter Twin, you have to find out which creature they're going to drop it on (Pestermite or Deceiver Exarch). And if you do manage to stop that they can still ramp out a Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker to complete the combo. I think your overvaluing the use of Revoker for the first game. The games where he would shine Game 1 (Birthing Pod, Elves) are already good match ups. He is a great card but I just don't think he shines the first game. Replacing him with a Kitchen Finks for the MB means you get a creature that's relevant against more decks.
canonists also can counter stuff. you play seething song, i vial in my canonist in response. whatcha gonna do with that mana bud?
anyways, revoker. no, awesome. in zoo, it hits kotr, grim lavamancer, noble hierarch (if they play it, and this can really help with the mana denial strategy). in 12post he hits staff of domination, expedition map, karn. in kiki twin, hes still awesome. i'd never side him out in that matchup. in fact, i rarely side him out against any deck. i think if i have time i'll test your list, but i'd suggest you test mine as well. i think you will find revoker is 10x more awesome than you think he is.
also, i saw your comment that there was something called hatebears in PT philly. i hope we can find the list.
EDIT: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=350848. i already put mana tithe in the card options part, but i want to revisit it. i haven't done that yet post bannings. i think we should test it, now that we have a mana denial strategy.
I agree with Daugarten about cutting revokers and keeping Kitchen Finks maindeck. Kitchen Finks helps you in your worst matchups ala Zoo, and aggro decks. I am finding that the deck has some inconsistency problems and I have decided that adding Emeria, Sky ruin might help the late game against a lot of decks.
1. I have been considering suppression field but it would mean cutting vials, and nobody wants to cut vial.
2. Timely reinforcements is decent against Zoo, and has helped but not before they regain control.
3. To beat combo like ascension, etc... Angel's grace is needed, and I dislike mana tithe because it does nothing against most decks.
I would recommend hokori in the SB against control and at least 3 ghostly prison. Zoo is a problem matchup and I am not sure what to do to fix it.
i'm not sure what you mean. zoo and most other aggro decks are anywhere from good matchups to even ones. and emeria is just a non-basic plains that comes into play tapped in this deck.
btw, i put up two more lists for the tournament result decklists. one went 4-0 in a modern daily, the other got 18 points at the pro-tour. they were both GW aggressive versions of the D+T. the pro tour one played 3 mana tithe in the main.
again, when i get a chance, i will test finks over revoker. for now, however, i really like revoker. i think you guys should try him out over finks as well.
Tom I think your really reaching for this to be D + T lol.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
@wesavelives: lol at "no, just no". thats pretty brutal. the only problem i see is that there isn't a 4 next to the flickerwisp. cut a stonecloaker if you have to.
@slipknot: well, it has the same strategy. i'm sure that the person who made it didn't call it "D+T" himself, but it still has the mindcensors, the ghost quarters, and the path to exiles. it can very well be viewed as a control-heavy UW death and taxes. it still has the "stop your opponent while beating with hatebears" theme, and it feels more like D+T than it does UW control. then again, i really just wanted to have it up there to show that decks like D+T can do well in tourneys. if i get enough other D+T lists to put up there, maybe i'll take it down.
Why is no one running Crucible with Ghost Quarter? This is Death and Taxes, not WW Tempo with Finks and Ghost Quarters.
What a lot are recommending sounds like a completely different deck. Finks are only good in the Aggro Matchup, yet most of the format is Combo. Combo's that are all weak to LD. I hope you guys get the hint about Crucible and Ghost Quarter, especially with Search hate Bears.
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Legacy Decks
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Modern
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Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg:
Interesting idea, here's my thoughts on using crucible or worlds.
- Another three drop is not what this deck is looking for.
- Crucible only seems to "combo" with 8/60 cards in the deck and 4 of those cards need 1 of the 7 " search restricting" cards to be profitable.
Uh, that's Death and Taxes though. That's what the strategy of the deck is. Disruption through board control, restricting your opponent with hate bears and Mana denial.
Your argument makes no sense, you are stating because one card need's another to be worth it, that it's pointless to use it? Have you forgot that we do not have Karakas, and are relying on Vial with Flickerwisp to use Mangara? That's relying on 3 cards to make the core of the deck work, when the original only needed two cards. I think going the primary route of LD is far better than relying on the core of the deck to pull us out of unfavorable board states. Don't get me wrong, I want the deck to work, because it's my favorite deck in Legacy. i want to see it be viable in this format, so I don't have to enter it dealing with combo LMAO!
Most of your 3 drops are coming out with the Vial anyways. With Crucible you can run just Ghost Quarter and be far more reliable on the Mana Denial instead of having to wait until they hit 4, which Zoo and several other decks do not need to do. Tec Edge is limited and requires Mana to be left untapped to use it. Once Crucible hit's the board, that's it. You don't need to pay anything else, just drop Ghost Quarter, crack it, and then pull it from the GY. Free repeatable disruption. With Leonin Arbiter down, it goes from a soft lock into a full on board lock where you are wiping out their entire board with Mangara, and blowing up all of their lands. You can literally wipe out all of their land and force them into top-deck mode with this strategy.
I'm not saying that Finks is a bad idea, just that the actual core of the deck needs to be fixed before this is called Death and Taxes.
I do think this need's to be taken in more of a Tempo direction with the addition of U though, since we are missing the most important parts of the deck. You know the Karakas, Sword of Fire and Ice, Swords to Plowshares, and the most important one Enlightened Tutor.
i think if i have time i'll test your list, but i'd suggest you test mine as well. i think you will find revoker is 10x more awesome than you think he is.
Done. I'll spend a week with your list and let you know what I think.
I saw the GW "D&T" list on the WotC page and I can't help but think that our lists would have done just as well. With some really fine tuning and metagame prediction, D&T can be an ever-evolving and competitive Tier 1 deck... IMHO.
as far as crucible goes; its awesome in my mono U STAKS deck. but i must agree and say it's not what the deck is trying to do.
EDIT: made a Stax N Tax deck in "deck directions". it runs crucible. i still have to test it though.
if you take a look at the legacy version, it runs 4 wastelands. but no crucible. D+T is basically white weenie, but with tricks. the main tricks you want to be doing should be performed by creatures, not other artifacts. you want to mess them up while attacking with bodies.
EDIT: daugarten: can you please repost your list? thanks
You can switch out the Pithing Needles in the SB for Revokers, I'm simply testing them at the moment since they can't be removed as easily... although they can't be vialed in either...
Sideboarding Strategies:
Zoo/Jund: +4 Ghostly Prison
Affinity: +3 Ghostly Prison, +2 Wrath of God, +3 Pithing Needle
12-Post: +3 Pithing Needle (if relevant to their build)
Twin: +4 Ghostly Prison, +3 Pithing Needle (Ghostly Prison is the tech here, Pithing Needle is optional TBH)
Ascension & Storm: +4 Ethersworn Canonist
Living End: +4 Ethersworn Canonist, +2 Tormod's Crypt
Right now I'm playing around with a lot of different builds (trying Canonist MB, Revoker MB, Inquisitor Exarch over Finks, etc.), but this is the list that I last felt was very solid. I really want this deck to perform well and I'm glad the thread is as active as it is. I'm hoping everyone can post the results of their testing along with me.
Has anyone considered a BW version? Tidehollow Sculler + Whitemane Lion in response to his ability can permanently exile a card in their hand.
tisk tisk. check the primer.
not only is sculler in the black splash section, but i explain the same thing (except with flickerwisp and stonecloaker of course).
anyways, daugarten, i have been testing with finks. its really good, and some close matches are won due to it. it really helps against aggro.
but without revoker, combo is more of a problem, as is sword of light and shadow, and pretty much any pesky thing with an activation cost. i don't want to side in needles just because of one or two pesky cards.
i also cant hit BOP or noble hierarch. but whatever.
i do think they are close. maybe if i switch the needles for revokers it will be better.
tell me what you are experiencing. i think we should test for longer, but its good to share first impressions.
not only is sculler in the black splash section, but i explain the same thing (except with flickerwisp and stonecloaker of course).
anyways, daugarten, i have been testing with finks. its really good, and some close matches are won due to it. it really helps against aggro.
but without revoker, combo is more of a problem, as is sword of light and shadow, and pretty much any pesky thing with an activation cost. i don't want to side in needles just because of one or two pesky cards.
i also cant hit BOP or noble hierarch. but whatever.
i do think they are close. maybe if i switch the needles for revokers it will be better.
tell me what you are experiencing. i think we should test for longer, but its good to share first impressions.
I glad you tested my build, appreciate it. Sadly I only ran yours once or twice the other night and my weekend was full of the beach and catching up on work. I will be testing yours more throughout the week.
First Impressions: I'm still fairly set on Revoker/Needle being in the sideboard (testing could change all that though, I'm keeping an open mind). My reasoning is that Aggro is a huge part of the meta right now and we need to have answers Game 1 (Finks > Revoker). Also, combo being the second large part of the meta is a concern, and a Revoker only hits one particular combo (Twin) and not very consistently at that. Revoker does hit 12-Post, so that's something to consider.
You mentioned that you didn't want to side in Needles just for 1 or 2 pesky cards. Neither do I; I only side them in when necessary, Affinity and Twin. They're great weapons against those decks (Arcbound Ravager, Cranial Platting, Splinter Twin targets). Against every other "pesky" card... decks that run them are already good match ups so a Needle isn't exactly game-changing at that point.
Pros of Revoker:
- Can be Vialed in
- Can swing against decks that don't run creatures
- Can hit Birds of Paradise and Noble Hierarch
- Can be reset with a Stonecloaker if needed
Cons of Revoker:
- A turn slower than Needle
- Can be burned or exiled with creature removal
Pros of Needle:
- Comes out Turn 1
- Safe from creature removal
Cons of Needle:
- Doesn't hit Mana cards
- Can't swing for damage
- Can't be Vialed in
How to compare the two? First, assume that Needle/Revoker are sideboard material... It only comes in for Games 2-3 against Affinity and Splinter Twin. Affinity runs Galvanic Blast to remove a Revoker, but Needle is safe. Twin runs both Lightning Bolt and Ancient Grudge. Needle is safe from Bolt, and Revoker is safe from neither. Revoker can be Vialed in, but chances are a good Twin player will tap your Vial at EOT when Pestermite/Exarch enter the battlefield. You'll Vial in the Revoker in response and the Twin player will have to draw a response (of which he has more against than the Needle).
If you do decide to run Needle/Revoker MB, then Revoker is probably the better choice. It hits more cards, can swing for damage, and there are more options to reset it if needed. That being said, Revoker rarely ever swings in for damage in my experience. It hits mana cards like BoP but those matches are already in our favor. If it's ever going to be reset to name a different card then you're probably playing against 12-Post. Needle stops Expedition Map every time, Revoker only stops it when on the draw. Revoker can be reset more easily to name a different late-game target like Karn, but not many lists run him and if they have him out, chances are you've failed at disrupting their mana base... GG.
At best, Revoker is a win-more card, at worst it's too slow to be useful.
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Is there a good, cheap card that we can combat these combo's?
Edit:
Just off the top of my head, all I can think of is Ensnaring Bridge.
Take a mechanic from the pre-mirrodin era, and a mechanic after the mirrodin era, and create a card that flavorfully melds both mechanics.
That's a match up I haven't played before... options could be maybe:
The cards depend largely on how they're getting the combo off (ramping rituals? digging/discarding with an activated ability, etc.) Some of those cards just slow it down, and others could be really useful but don't offer as much utility against other decks. I'm not sure how those decks are going to flesh out in larger numbers... Best of luck!
EDIT: Quick note about the Combo Elves match up... it's definitely not bad. Granted, I've only tested it about 3 times. Play a Revoker naming Heritage Druid, spot removal on Ezuri, or exile their Cloudstone Curio... there are lots of ways to deny them and we control the skies. I would say that is a good match up.
Again ethersworn cannist needs to be in the main deck. It stops half of the emrakul combos, all of the storm deck, all of the pyromancers ascension decks, elves, slows zoo down. (see tons of 1 drops) It really doesn't slow you down since this deck is essentially 1 spell per turn.
Oh and kitchen finks is a house against zoo, but this deck should have a decent matchup against any fair aggro deck. Its the combo and aggro combo decks that are tough.
12 post
storm
pyro ascension
Kiki-Twin
Affinity
I would also recommend a light blue splash to help with this. You would be surprised what a spell pierce or two will do against combo decks. Also meddling mage is quite good right now.
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@daug: i shall move the elves matchup to medium; my experience is that it isn't "good". also, the list that isn't in a spoiler in the OP is my current list. what you suggest i take out to test finks? everything seems so good (and don't say revoker. that dude is an all-star. i'm thinking of moving him up to 4 MD).
@dues: i haven't played much against that as well. but generally o-ring and mangara can deal with emrakul if it's a combo that doesn't give him haste. if it is a combo that gives him haste, you can at least vial in 'wisp to bounce him, but beyond that i don't know. ensnaring bridge would kinda hurt us a lot, so i'm not sure that is the best choice. legacy D+T plays a single phyrexian metamorph in a enlightened tutor package, as it kills both emrakul and prog. all in all i'm not sure how big a problem emy is though, as it doesn't seem hugely popular.
I considered it but was turned off by the 3cc. Storm decks can go off as early as Turn 2, and no matter if you're on the draw or play 3cc is just too slow. Generally it's better to land something and hope they don't have removal than not to land anything at all. Also, Canonists can help you get the win faster before they find an answer, and they can also be vialed in to surprise them.
@Tom88: I would just suggest you play with my list. That does mean taking out one Mindcensor and the three Revokers. Yes, Revoker is fantastic, but on Game 1 he doesn't stop anything that Zoo or 12-Post throw your way. Maybe he ruins Expedition Map but I'm not sure that card is as popular as it once was. Revoker doesn't stop Pyromancer Ascension either. What it can do is slow down Splinter Twin combos, but you can't even name Splinter Twin, you have to find out which creature they're going to drop it on (Pestermite or Deceiver Exarch). And if you do manage to stop that they can still ramp out a Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker to complete the combo. I think your overvaluing the use of Revoker for the first game. The games where he would shine Game 1 (Birthing Pod, Elves) are already good match ups. He is a great card but I just don't think he shines the first game. Replacing him with a Kitchen Finks for the MB means you get a creature that's relevant against more decks.
anyways, revoker. no, awesome. in zoo, it hits kotr, grim lavamancer, noble hierarch (if they play it, and this can really help with the mana denial strategy). in 12post he hits staff of domination, expedition map, karn. in kiki twin, hes still awesome. i'd never side him out in that matchup. in fact, i rarely side him out against any deck. i think if i have time i'll test your list, but i'd suggest you test mine as well. i think you will find revoker is 10x more awesome than you think he is.
also, i saw your comment that there was something called hatebears in PT philly. i hope we can find the list.
EDIT: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=350848. i already put mana tithe in the card options part, but i want to revisit it. i haven't done that yet post bannings. i think we should test it, now that we have a mana denial strategy.
1. I have been considering suppression field but it would mean cutting vials, and nobody wants to cut vial.
2. Timely reinforcements is decent against Zoo, and has helped but not before they regain control.
3. To beat combo like ascension, etc... Angel's grace is needed, and I dislike mana tithe because it does nothing against most decks.
I would recommend hokori in the SB against control and at least 3 ghostly prison. Zoo is a problem matchup and I am not sure what to do to fix it.
btw, i put up two more lists for the tournament result decklists. one went 4-0 in a modern daily, the other got 18 points at the pro-tour. they were both GW aggressive versions of the D+T. the pro tour one played 3 mana tithe in the main.
again, when i get a chance, i will test finks over revoker. for now, however, i really like revoker. i think you guys should try him out over finks as well.
Tom I think your really reaching for this to be D + T lol.
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@slipknot: well, it has the same strategy. i'm sure that the person who made it didn't call it "D+T" himself, but it still has the mindcensors, the ghost quarters, and the path to exiles. it can very well be viewed as a control-heavy UW death and taxes. it still has the "stop your opponent while beating with hatebears" theme, and it feels more like D+T than it does UW control. then again, i really just wanted to have it up there to show that decks like D+T can do well in tourneys. if i get enough other D+T lists to put up there, maybe i'll take it down.
What a lot are recommending sounds like a completely different deck. Finks are only good in the Aggro Matchup, yet most of the format is Combo. Combo's that are all weak to LD. I hope you guys get the hint about Crucible and Ghost Quarter, especially with Search hate Bears.
~~~~~~~~~
Too many to list efficiently. Find me online with the same SN if you want to play, or message me here to set up a time to play.
Modern
~~~~~~~~~
Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg:
Uh, that's Death and Taxes though. That's what the strategy of the deck is. Disruption through board control, restricting your opponent with hate bears and Mana denial.
Your argument makes no sense, you are stating because one card need's another to be worth it, that it's pointless to use it? Have you forgot that we do not have Karakas, and are relying on Vial with Flickerwisp to use Mangara? That's relying on 3 cards to make the core of the deck work, when the original only needed two cards. I think going the primary route of LD is far better than relying on the core of the deck to pull us out of unfavorable board states. Don't get me wrong, I want the deck to work, because it's my favorite deck in Legacy. i want to see it be viable in this format, so I don't have to enter it dealing with combo LMAO!
Most of your 3 drops are coming out with the Vial anyways. With Crucible you can run just Ghost Quarter and be far more reliable on the Mana Denial instead of having to wait until they hit 4, which Zoo and several other decks do not need to do. Tec Edge is limited and requires Mana to be left untapped to use it. Once Crucible hit's the board, that's it. You don't need to pay anything else, just drop Ghost Quarter, crack it, and then pull it from the GY. Free repeatable disruption. With Leonin Arbiter down, it goes from a soft lock into a full on board lock where you are wiping out their entire board with Mangara, and blowing up all of their lands. You can literally wipe out all of their land and force them into top-deck mode with this strategy.
I'm not saying that Finks is a bad idea, just that the actual core of the deck needs to be fixed before this is called Death and Taxes.
I do think this need's to be taken in more of a Tempo direction with the addition of U though, since we are missing the most important parts of the deck. You know the Karakas, Sword of Fire and Ice, Swords to Plowshares, and the most important one Enlightened Tutor.
~~~~~~~~~
Too many to list efficiently. Find me online with the same SN if you want to play, or message me here to set up a time to play.
Modern
~~~~~~~~~
Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg:
Done. I'll spend a week with your list and let you know what I think.
I saw the GW "D&T" list on the WotC page and I can't help but think that our lists would have done just as well. With some really fine tuning and metagame prediction, D&T can be an ever-evolving and competitive Tier 1 deck... IMHO.
as far as crucible goes; its awesome in my mono U STAKS deck. but i must agree and say it's not what the deck is trying to do.
EDIT: made a Stax N Tax deck in "deck directions". it runs crucible. i still have to test it though.
if you take a look at the legacy version, it runs 4 wastelands. but no crucible. D+T is basically white weenie, but with tricks. the main tricks you want to be doing should be performed by creatures, not other artifacts. you want to mess them up while attacking with bodies.
EDIT: daugarten: can you please repost your list? thanks
3x Aven Mindcensor
4x Kitchen Finks
4x Serra Avenger
4x Mangara of Corondor
4x Flickerwisp
3x Stonecloaker
4x Path to Exile
3x Oblivion Ring
15x Plains
4x Ghost Quarter
4x Tectonic Edge
4x Ethersworn Canonist
4x Ghostly Prison
2x Wrath of God
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Pithing Needle
You can switch out the Pithing Needles in the SB for Revokers, I'm simply testing them at the moment since they can't be removed as easily... although they can't be vialed in either...
Sideboarding Strategies:
Zoo/Jund: +4 Ghostly Prison
Affinity: +3 Ghostly Prison, +2 Wrath of God, +3 Pithing Needle
12-Post: +3 Pithing Needle (if relevant to their build)
Twin: +4 Ghostly Prison, +3 Pithing Needle (Ghostly Prison is the tech here, Pithing Needle is optional TBH)
Ascension & Storm: +4 Ethersworn Canonist
Living End: +4 Ethersworn Canonist, +2 Tormod's Crypt
Right now I'm playing around with a lot of different builds (trying Canonist MB, Revoker MB, Inquisitor Exarch over Finks, etc.), but this is the list that I last felt was very solid. I really want this deck to perform well and I'm glad the thread is as active as it is. I'm hoping everyone can post the results of their testing along with me.
tisk tisk. check the primer.
not only is sculler in the black splash section, but i explain the same thing (except with flickerwisp and stonecloaker of course).
anyways, daugarten, i have been testing with finks. its really good, and some close matches are won due to it. it really helps against aggro.
but without revoker, combo is more of a problem, as is sword of light and shadow, and pretty much any pesky thing with an activation cost. i don't want to side in needles just because of one or two pesky cards.
i also cant hit BOP or noble hierarch. but whatever.
i do think they are close. maybe if i switch the needles for revokers it will be better.
tell me what you are experiencing. i think we should test for longer, but its good to share first impressions.
haha sorry im too lazy to read the primer
I glad you tested my build, appreciate it. Sadly I only ran yours once or twice the other night and my weekend was full of the beach and catching up on work. I will be testing yours more throughout the week.
First Impressions: I'm still fairly set on Revoker/Needle being in the sideboard (testing could change all that though, I'm keeping an open mind). My reasoning is that Aggro is a huge part of the meta right now and we need to have answers Game 1 (Finks > Revoker). Also, combo being the second large part of the meta is a concern, and a Revoker only hits one particular combo (Twin) and not very consistently at that. Revoker does hit 12-Post, so that's something to consider.
You mentioned that you didn't want to side in Needles just for 1 or 2 pesky cards. Neither do I; I only side them in when necessary, Affinity and Twin. They're great weapons against those decks (Arcbound Ravager, Cranial Platting, Splinter Twin targets). Against every other "pesky" card... decks that run them are already good match ups so a Needle isn't exactly game-changing at that point.
Pros of Revoker:
- Can be Vialed in
- Can swing against decks that don't run creatures
- Can hit Birds of Paradise and Noble Hierarch
- Can be reset with a Stonecloaker if needed
Cons of Revoker:
- A turn slower than Needle
- Can be burned or exiled with creature removal
Pros of Needle:
- Comes out Turn 1
- Safe from creature removal
Cons of Needle:
- Doesn't hit Mana cards
- Can't swing for damage
- Can't be Vialed in
How to compare the two? First, assume that Needle/Revoker are sideboard material... It only comes in for Games 2-3 against Affinity and Splinter Twin. Affinity runs Galvanic Blast to remove a Revoker, but Needle is safe. Twin runs both Lightning Bolt and Ancient Grudge. Needle is safe from Bolt, and Revoker is safe from neither. Revoker can be Vialed in, but chances are a good Twin player will tap your Vial at EOT when Pestermite/Exarch enter the battlefield. You'll Vial in the Revoker in response and the Twin player will have to draw a response (of which he has more against than the Needle).
If you do decide to run Needle/Revoker MB, then Revoker is probably the better choice. It hits more cards, can swing for damage, and there are more options to reset it if needed. That being said, Revoker rarely ever swings in for damage in my experience. It hits mana cards like BoP but those matches are already in our favor. If it's ever going to be reset to name a different card then you're probably playing against 12-Post. Needle stops Expedition Map every time, Revoker only stops it when on the draw. Revoker can be reset more easily to name a different late-game target like Karn, but not many lists run him and if they have him out, chances are you've failed at disrupting their mana base... GG.
At best, Revoker is a win-more card, at worst it's too slow to be useful.