I may have missed this one earlier in the primer but what do people think of Phyrexian metamorph as an answer to Geist of Saint Traft, eldrazi, etc. At worst it's another vial/sword/kitchen finks. I was testing against w/u tron and I don't really like being annihilated for a loss.
I would rather use Phantasmal Image because it can be vialed in.
It isn't exactly a mash of two decks, but more of taking UW Resto and adding Arbiter. It already runs Path, Finks, and with Arbiter, swapping out Tectonic Edge for Ghost Quarter isn't a huge change either. Maybe instead of Clique (or Geist, heaven forbid anyone suggest taking Geist out) run Aven Mindcensor and/or Stonecloaker.
If its taking UW Resto and adding arbiter why aren't you discussing it over in the UW Resto thread? It seems that if the deck you are trying to build is a slight variant of one deck(resto), and a large variant of another deck(DnT), it should probably be discussed in the thread for the former rather than derailing the thread for the latter.
Liking the list. I'd cut a Mindcensor for a Serra Avenger right off the bat, though. Your sideboard looks really fresh, so that will work itself out on its own through testing - No need to comment on it.
Not a huge fan of Jotun Grunt main, but depending on the meta you're expecting (Storm/Jund) he can be played out earlier than turn 4.
You lack the punching power of Silverblade and Elspeth, but again the meta you are expecting may not require it - You do have HtP which turns your bears into angry bears that eat most things.
My main issue with Ethersworn main is it gives other decks an excuse to side in artifact hate. It's not worth them siding Grudge in or anything if you only have vial, but if they see Ethersworn they definitely will and it can definitely throw a wrench into your plans.
My two(ish?) cents.
Thanks for the feedback. I think that I'll stick with 3 Mindcensor, 2 Avenger for now, as I don't like being stuck with Avengers in hand, and you can have trouble casting her at WW if you have a good amount of colorless sources. (I only have 6-8, counting the filter lands.) Also, Mindcensor seems important for Pod, Tron, etc., although maybe it's too slow.
Grunt is just another late-game beater, a little easier on the curve than Silverblade and Elspeth. With all of the instant-speed red removal, I don't like the potential of getting blown out in combat with Silverblade. If I were to run a Boros list, though, I'd def. include him and Elspeth. I mocked up a list but haven't tested it much because it's cold to combo and a little inconsistent. But it should be fast.
Honor hits all the creatures except for Mutavault, so that's nice. That includes Canonist and Stirring Wildwood. Re: the artifact hate, if a deck is expecting Canonist in game two anyway, then I think they'd bring it in regardless. Plus that's a card that be boarded out if it's not too relevant. I like it in game one, and I think that it will affect a good amount of decks. It prevents Jund from casting a free spell off Bloodbraid Elf, and that's awesome.
If you grunt main then 4 canopy is just better for me. In fact 4 canopy is just really good anyway. There is a sort of anti synergy between grunt and canonist, and you sort of replicate the 4/4 beatstick with smiter. I love grunt and play him main myself, but I don't run smiters, and I do run splicers that get killed and feed that bin. I would add that the lack of splicers makes mutavault worse, so 2 is probably right for your list.
sideboard looks a bit iffy to me- as you say its tentative. Rest in peace is terrible with grunt- if you want to hose enemy bins then grunt comes out, presumably?. Do not forget wheel of sun and moon can do a lot of rest in peace's job. It depends on what you are aiming at with the card. I really don't see firewalker being that hot here- finks is better and does the same job, board slots are precious. I'd prefer 4 pridemage- shackles is a right sod- and plenty of storm type decks still use ascension. You should beat RDW anyway.
True believer is ok, you could run leyline in the slot as well if you prefer. I never like relying on 2 cc men to keep me alive- I would rather do so with enchantments like runed halo that don't die to the inevitable pyroclasm. That said you run 4HTP so maybe true believer is better.
Not particuarly fussed on the sword- green and blue protection seems weak in an environ where all removal is targeted R,W or mass, baring abrupt decay. Bant decks have pridemages as std, too- the odds of connecting with it are low.
I don't really like running four copies of Canopy, and I wouldn't count on my own deck to fuel Grunt anyway. And yeah, I'll pull him when I bring in Rest in Peace, which is hands down the best card for graveyard hate. I'd rather have it than Leyline, and they still can bounce either one.
I'm a big fan of True Believer. Originally, my plan was to run Forge-Tender in the SB to protect him and other hate bears, but I might not do that. Don't forget that Believer has applications in a lot of other match-ups, not just Storm or other dumb combo decks. You can use him against discard, burn, etc.
Firewalker might not be worth it, but I like having dudes that live through Pyroclasm for Tron or Valakut decks. He pairs well with Sword of Body and Mind too, because he lives through the red sweeper and can suit up safely to start milling out mountains or whatever. I still have Finks in there for now, as I don't think that RDW is a good match-up.
I'm leaning towards only 2 Pridemage for now because I have Stony Silence, which hoses Eggs, Affinity, and Birthing Pod. It also stops the Shackles that you mentioned.
Lastly, as briefly mentioned, the SoBM isn't really for the protection colors, although it could be used against mono-blue faeries or other such decks. It's mostly for Scapeshift / Valakut to mill out important cards. I might try a few Steelshaper's Gift plus another sword or two.
Teeg is not really totally irrelevant in the current meta- he stops scapeshift, warrens and boarded wraths of any description from any USA or bant aggro/control deck. Ok gifts has gone a fair bit down the pecking order, but I do see use for teeg, even if its not stellar. I think the main reason to splash green is pridemage and canopy, which becomes more important if u run grunts as it feeds the grunt. I agree with your sentiment that blue is potentially better.
Additionally Teeg hurts pod by turning off Birthing Pod and that XGGG spell they run.
On a different note, I really really really want this to happen some day. Vs. Delver:
T1: Vial
(opponent)T1: blue mana source
T2: Leonin Arbiter (opponent) Spell Snare
Vial--> Judge's Familiar-->counter Spell Snare
I don't really like running four copies of Canopy, and I wouldn't count on my own deck to fuel Grunt anyway. And yeah, I'll pull him when I bring in Rest in Peace, which is hands down the best card for graveyard hate. I'd rather have it than Leyline, and they still can bounce either one.
I'm a big fan of True Believer. Originally, my plan was to run Forge-Tender in the SB to protect him and other hate bears, but I might not do that. Don't forget that Believer has applications in a lot of other match-ups, not just Storm or other dumb combo decks. You can use him against discard, burn, etc.
Firewalker might not be worth it, but I like having dudes that live through Pyroclasm for Tron or Valakut decks. He pairs well with Sword of Body and Mind too, because he lives through the red sweeper and can suit up safely to start milling out mountains or whatever. I still have Finks in there for now, as I don't think that RDW is a good match-up.
I'm leaning towards only 2 Pridemage for now because I have Stony Silence, which hoses Eggs, Affinity, and Birthing Pod. It also stops the Shackles that you mentioned.
Lastly, as briefly mentioned, the SoBM isn't really for the protection colors, although it could be used against mono-blue faeries or other such decks. It's mostly for Scapeshift / Valakut to mill out important cards. I might try a few Steelshaper's Gift plus another sword or two.
I see what you are saying about believer,I like him too- always have. He is better in an HTP list than otherwise. I wouldn't fancy his chances of surviving against jund decks long enough to stop discard and burn but that is true of all men. I imagine your jund matchup will be favourable anyway? Smiter is good vs liliana type discard- hopefully you should be strong against that either way.
RE firewalker: it seems as if most of your list does live through pyroclasm, hence I was questioning it. its not bad though I prefer forge tender in a way for saving hate bears as you suggest. I would suggest you test RDW if you haven't- its one of the easier matchups for flickerwisping control style d and t, so I am surprised you are worried with the finks and quality of men and HTP you can put down I would imagine the match is not too much trouble.
Stony silence is good against tron too- will you board it in there? And its almost good enough against D and T decks running 4 vial and mask/swords/mask of memory.
I am a bit worried about valakut/sword plan though. Milling away their 10 random cards t4/5 seems a little more prone to luck than casting eg nevermore and naming scapeshift or runed halo and naming valakut. We don't have memoricide type cards or hand destruction, but these types of white effects seem stronger than mill for ten hope to hit good stuff. If it does work and you have tested a lot then I apologise for my scepticism.
I like the search for a sword du jour plan as it gives flexability- although the irony of talking about sword searching on a d and t primer is not lost on me.
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Additionally Teeg hurts pod by turning off Birthing Pod and that XGGG spell they run.
On a different note, I really really really want this to happen some day. Vs. Delver:
T1: Vial
(opponent)T1: blue mana source
T2: Leonin Arbiter (opponent) Spell Snare
Vial--> Judge's Familiar-->counter Spell Snare
Yes, this is why I'm excited about Familiar with Vial. Of course, you'll never keep Vial on 1, but it can be spicy if you start with both in hand.
I see what you are saying about believer,I like him too- always have. He is better in an HTP list than otherwise. I wouldn't fancy his chances of surviving against jund decks long enough to stop discard and burn but that is true of all men. I imagine your jund matchup will be favourable anyway? Smiter is good vs liliana type discard- hopefully you should be strong against that either way.
RE firewalker: it seems as if most of your list does live through pyroclasm, hence I was questioning it. its not bad though I prefer forge tender in a way for saving hate bears as you suggest. I would suggest you test RDW if you haven't- its one of the easier matchups for flickerwisping control style d and t, so I am surprised you are worried with the finks and quality of men and HTP you can put down I would imagine the match is not too much trouble.
Stony silence is good against tron too- will you board it in there? And its almost good enough against D and T decks running 4 vial and mask/swords/mask of memory.
I am a bit worried about valakut/sword plan though. Milling away their 10 random cards t4/5 seems a little more prone to luck than casting eg nevermore and naming scapeshift or runed halo and naming valakut. We don't have memoricide type cards or hand destruction, but these types of white effects seem stronger than mill for ten hope to hit good stuff. If it does work and you have tested a lot then I apologise for my scepticism.
I like the search for a sword du jour plan as it gives flexability- although the irony of talking about sword searching on a d and t primer is not lost on me.
Yeah, I'm not sure about the Jund matchup, but a lot of those cards are in there with it in mind (Smiter, most obviously, and Canonist in a niche role as I mentioned).
There's def. a strong case for Forge-Tender, and I might go back to that. But I did do a little testing against a red-black aggro-burn list, and it was awful. Of course, that shouldn't be too much of the meta right now.
Sure, I don't see why I wouldn't board in Stony Silence against Tron, although I need to remember to board out Vial! Or maybe it's worth leaving out Stony so you can Vial in an Arbiter in response to a search spell? And also to get around Pyroclasm at EOT.
You probably are right about the sword plan. I don't like devoting too much board space to Runed Halo, but if I add one or two, I could keep one SoB&M and diversify the swords (ideally casting Steelshaper's Gift on turn one before Arbiter on two).
If its taking UW Resto and adding arbiter why aren't you discussing it over in the UW Resto thread? It seems that if the deck you are trying to build is a slight variant of one deck(resto), and a large variant of another deck(DnT), it should probably be discussed in the thread for the former rather than derailing the thread for the latter.
I was discussing it here because other people were discussing how to best splash blue in this thread. It's not like I just came in here saying random thoughts out of the blue.
The one thing that I keep coming back to with this deck is the lack of removal. Sure, I got 4x Path to Exile maindeck, but sometimes I feel that is not enough. Sometimes I think maybe Fiend Hunter might be a good choice, especially with O-Ring-esque shenanigans via Restoration Angel or vialed in Flickerwisp. Sometimes I think maybe Condemn might be worth a shot too. Maybe there is something else that slipped my mind? Any thoughts on this?
I played a Taxing deck early on when Modern came out. My single biggest challenge was beating down effectively. I could stifle their development but find myself unable to seal the deal. I was wondering if anyone else had this issue and what you do about it.
My current idea was to put taxing elements in a Soul Sisters shell, to improve the MU against aggro/tempo
I played a Taxing deck early on when Modern came out. My single biggest challenge was beating down effectively. I could stifle their development but find myself unable to seal the deal. I was wondering if anyone else had this issue and what you do about it.
My current idea was to put taxing elements in a Soul Sisters shell, to improve the MU against aggro/tempo
This was the issue that I had in the beginning with DnT, when I was running the monoW version. Since then, we've added Bladesplicers and traded Tectonic Edge for Mutavault, I've splashed green to add in Rancor and some other more aggressive choices, and I've removed some of the slower pieces, like Mangara. Really, what the deck needs is a balance of the death and the taxes. Of course, Thalia being printed was a godsend for this deck because she's a good mix of both.
On the subject of removal, I run a couple of Devouring Lights in the SB because there are a couple of aggro decks that were bugging me in my meta, like Treefolk.dec. They're fairly excellent because we drop so many creatures and the convoke allows for you to declare blocks and then pay for the spell. Catches people off guard when you first strike half their dudes and have removal left over when you're tapped out.
The one thing that I keep coming back to with this deck is the lack of removal. Sure, I got 4x Path to Exile maindeck, but sometimes I feel that is not enough. Sometimes I think maybe Fiend Hunter might be a good choice, especially with O-Ring-esque shenanigans via Restoration Angel or vialed in Flickerwisp. Sometimes I think maybe Condemn might be worth a shot too. Maybe there is something else that slipped my mind? Any thoughts on this?
Vialing in Fiend Hunter and using your mana to cast Restoration Angel with the exile trigger on the stack is pretty spicy. I don't think I'll try it in my list, but I do like both of those cards and was thinking the same thing about lack of removal. With my list, though, I'm hoping that between Smiter, Grunt, Avenger, and Thalia all getting pumped from Honor of the Pure, I'll be able to power through other creatures.
I would rather not pay 4 life for my removal. I don't find those combo decks to be a major issue, since you often only need one piece of removal against them. The Pod versions also have a serious problem when facing down Leonin Arbiter or Aven Mindcensor. Delver is a little tougher, but typically this deck drops more threats than they can answer, and tends to stabilize around 8 life.
The decks I want extra removal for are the ones which play a lot of creatures. Jund specifically comes to mind, and Oblivion Ring is probably best for them since it can hit Liliana too.
At this point I am thinking I will try out the Fiend Hunter as maybe a 2 of in my board. I like that I can flash it in with Vial, and then respond with Restoration Angel, or hardcast on my turn followed with a vialed in Flickerwisp. The 3 toughness can block a lot of the smaller threats in the format as well.
YAY! got more D&T cards today. On fiend hunter- I like it, and if it works for you go for it, but he doesn't seem agressive enough for me. He's not a very good attacker or blocker because he has no evasion and upon dying, gives the opponent back their best creature. I think I would rather just play oblivion ring and take the extra versatility over Aether Vial and Restoration Angel shenanigans.
I've played a somewhat similiar list before M13 hit and it was quite successful. Mana Tithe is very unexpected and the slew of taxing effects usually puts a huge dent in the plan of spell reliant decks.
Where I play, there's usually at least 1 UR Storm, 1 UWR Tempo with some Fae, 1 Martyr, 0-3 Tron of all flavors and a bunch of random.
Hokori is a really good card for this deck. I didn't play much then and had no idea they printed Winter Orb on a stick.
I would ditch the Misty Rainforest so you don't shaft yourself with Arbiter or Mindcensor. I also favor 4x Horizon Canopy with KotR, which is also shafted by Arbiter and Mindcensor.
Hokori is a really good card for this deck. I didn't play much then and had no idea they printed Winter Orb on a stick.
I would ditch the Misty Rainforest so you don't shaft yourself with Arbiter or Mindcensor. I also favor 4x Horizon Canopy with KotR, which is also shafted by Arbiter and Mindcensor.
Misty is a necessity, I'm afraid. It virtually ups the count of lands KotR can sac and it makes him grow faster.
Arbiter, as a 4-of, doesnt conflict with Fetchlands too much for it to matter, to be honest. One you can play Arbiter, you can also pay his tax, should you really need 3 mana.
It seems like a conflict of interest to run Fetch lands and KotR with Arbiter. If you say so and it works for you, hey, I am not gonna tell you how to build your deck.
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I would rather use Phantasmal Image because it can be vialed in.
If its taking UW Resto and adding arbiter why aren't you discussing it over in the UW Resto thread? It seems that if the deck you are trying to build is a slight variant of one deck(resto), and a large variant of another deck(DnT), it should probably be discussed in the thread for the former rather than derailing the thread for the latter.
Thanks for the feedback. I think that I'll stick with 3 Mindcensor, 2 Avenger for now, as I don't like being stuck with Avengers in hand, and you can have trouble casting her at WW if you have a good amount of colorless sources. (I only have 6-8, counting the filter lands.) Also, Mindcensor seems important for Pod, Tron, etc., although maybe it's too slow.
Grunt is just another late-game beater, a little easier on the curve than Silverblade and Elspeth. With all of the instant-speed red removal, I don't like the potential of getting blown out in combat with Silverblade. If I were to run a Boros list, though, I'd def. include him and Elspeth. I mocked up a list but haven't tested it much because it's cold to combo and a little inconsistent. But it should be fast.
Honor hits all the creatures except for Mutavault, so that's nice. That includes Canonist and Stirring Wildwood. Re: the artifact hate, if a deck is expecting Canonist in game two anyway, then I think they'd bring it in regardless. Plus that's a card that be boarded out if it's not too relevant. I like it in game one, and I think that it will affect a good amount of decks. It prevents Jund from casting a free spell off Bloodbraid Elf, and that's awesome.
I don't really like running four copies of Canopy, and I wouldn't count on my own deck to fuel Grunt anyway. And yeah, I'll pull him when I bring in Rest in Peace, which is hands down the best card for graveyard hate. I'd rather have it than Leyline, and they still can bounce either one.
I'm a big fan of True Believer. Originally, my plan was to run Forge-Tender in the SB to protect him and other hate bears, but I might not do that. Don't forget that Believer has applications in a lot of other match-ups, not just Storm or other dumb combo decks. You can use him against discard, burn, etc.
Firewalker might not be worth it, but I like having dudes that live through Pyroclasm for Tron or Valakut decks. He pairs well with Sword of Body and Mind too, because he lives through the red sweeper and can suit up safely to start milling out mountains or whatever. I still have Finks in there for now, as I don't think that RDW is a good match-up.
I'm leaning towards only 2 Pridemage for now because I have Stony Silence, which hoses Eggs, Affinity, and Birthing Pod. It also stops the Shackles that you mentioned.
Lastly, as briefly mentioned, the SoBM isn't really for the protection colors, although it could be used against mono-blue faeries or other such decks. It's mostly for Scapeshift / Valakut to mill out important cards. I might try a few Steelshaper's Gift plus another sword or two.
Additionally Teeg hurts pod by turning off Birthing Pod and that XGGG spell they run.
On a different note, I really really really want this to happen some day.
Vs. Delver:
T1: Vial
(opponent)T1: blue mana source
T2: Leonin Arbiter (opponent) Spell Snare
Vial--> Judge's Familiar-->counter Spell Snare
I see what you are saying about believer,I like him too- always have. He is better in an HTP list than otherwise. I wouldn't fancy his chances of surviving against jund decks long enough to stop discard and burn but that is true of all men. I imagine your jund matchup will be favourable anyway? Smiter is good vs liliana type discard- hopefully you should be strong against that either way.
RE firewalker: it seems as if most of your list does live through pyroclasm, hence I was questioning it. its not bad though I prefer forge tender in a way for saving hate bears as you suggest. I would suggest you test RDW if you haven't- its one of the easier matchups for flickerwisping control style d and t, so I am surprised you are worried with the finks and quality of men and HTP you can put down I would imagine the match is not too much trouble.
Stony silence is good against tron too- will you board it in there? And its almost good enough against D and T decks running 4 vial and mask/swords/mask of memory.
I am a bit worried about valakut/sword plan though. Milling away their 10 random cards t4/5 seems a little more prone to luck than casting eg nevermore and naming scapeshift or runed halo and naming valakut. We don't have memoricide type cards or hand destruction, but these types of white effects seem stronger than mill for ten hope to hit good stuff. If it does work and you have tested a lot then I apologise for my scepticism.
I like the search for a sword du jour plan as it gives flexability- although the irony of talking about sword searching on a d and t primer is not lost on me.
Yes, this is why I'm excited about Familiar with Vial. Of course, you'll never keep Vial on 1, but it can be spicy if you start with both in hand.
Yeah, I'm not sure about the Jund matchup, but a lot of those cards are in there with it in mind (Smiter, most obviously, and Canonist in a niche role as I mentioned).
There's def. a strong case for Forge-Tender, and I might go back to that. But I did do a little testing against a red-black aggro-burn list, and it was awful. Of course, that shouldn't be too much of the meta right now.
Sure, I don't see why I wouldn't board in Stony Silence against Tron, although I need to remember to board out Vial! Or maybe it's worth leaving out Stony so you can Vial in an Arbiter in response to a search spell? And also to get around Pyroclasm at EOT.
You probably are right about the sword plan. I don't like devoting too much board space to Runed Halo, but if I add one or two, I could keep one SoB&M and diversify the swords (ideally casting Steelshaper's Gift on turn one before Arbiter on two).
I was discussing it here because other people were discussing how to best splash blue in this thread. It's not like I just came in here saying random thoughts out of the blue.
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Also, there's still Sunlance and Oust, I guess...
My current idea was to put taxing elements in a Soul Sisters shell, to improve the MU against aggro/tempo
Legacy: Strawberry Shortcake, Aggro Loam, DnT+b
Modern: Devoted Karn
Vintage: Survival
This was the issue that I had in the beginning with DnT, when I was running the monoW version. Since then, we've added Bladesplicers and traded Tectonic Edge for Mutavault, I've splashed green to add in Rancor and some other more aggressive choices, and I've removed some of the slower pieces, like Mangara. Really, what the deck needs is a balance of the death and the taxes. Of course, Thalia being printed was a godsend for this deck because she's a good mix of both.
On the subject of removal, I run a couple of Devouring Lights in the SB because there are a couple of aggro decks that were bugging me in my meta, like Treefolk.dec. They're fairly excellent because we drop so many creatures and the convoke allows for you to declare blocks and then pay for the spell. Catches people off guard when you first strike half their dudes and have removal left over when you're tapped out.
Vialing in Fiend Hunter and using your mana to cast Restoration Angel with the exile trigger on the stack is pretty spicy. I don't think I'll try it in my list, but I do like both of those cards and was thinking the same thing about lack of removal. With my list, though, I'm hoping that between Smiter, Grunt, Avenger, and Thalia all getting pumped from Honor of the Pure, I'll be able to power through other creatures.
The decks I want extra removal for are the ones which play a lot of creatures. Jund specifically comes to mind, and Oblivion Ring is probably best for them since it can hit Liliana too.
At this point I am thinking I will try out the Fiend Hunter as maybe a 2 of in my board. I like that I can flash it in with Vial, and then respond with Restoration Angel, or hardcast on my turn followed with a vialed in Flickerwisp. The 3 toughness can block a lot of the smaller threats in the format as well.
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4 Judges Familiar
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Aven Mindcensor
2 Hokori Dustdrinker
4 Path to Exile
4 Mana Tithe
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Temple Garden
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Treetop Village
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Tectonic Edge
4 G Quarter
I've played a somewhat similiar list before M13 hit and it was quite successful. Mana Tithe is very unexpected and the slew of taxing effects usually puts a huge dent in the plan of spell reliant decks.
Where I play, there's usually at least 1 UR Storm, 1 UWR Tempo with some Fae, 1 Martyr, 0-3 Tron of all flavors and a bunch of random.
I would ditch the Misty Rainforest so you don't shaft yourself with Arbiter or Mindcensor. I also favor 4x Horizon Canopy with KotR, which is also shafted by Arbiter and Mindcensor.
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Misty is a necessity, I'm afraid. It virtually ups the count of lands KotR can sac and it makes him grow faster.
Arbiter, as a 4-of, doesnt conflict with Fetchlands too much for it to matter, to be honest. One you can play Arbiter, you can also pay his tax, should you really need 3 mana.
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