Well, I'm starting up Modern, and I'm hoping to go to Grand Prix Chicago. It looks like this would be a deck I am interested in playing. I would hope to have at least a decent showing...
I've read the previous pages...is it really that hard to get a consistent win streak with this deck? I think I now have all of the cards that are commonly used in the deck, minus the original Mirrodin swords, though I could probably obtain those by then.
I am leaning towards WG, though I can still be swayed to go to other colors. It seems Jund is the deck to beat, so I am willing to build around that.
Keep in mind that I have basically zero experience with Modern.
If you are going to play this deck in early November, I would suggest starting by putting together a list on Cockatrice or something so you can play test it in the meantime. This is not a deck that can be easily played without practice. I find even when I am playing something else for a little bit, that this deck can be unforgiving if I haven't played with it recently.
8 man Modern tournament here today, pretty low turn out. Drew for first place but lost 1-2 to Merfolk in the games we played for fun. Game 3 I was stuck on 2 land and played assuming I'd rip one eventually... Didn't happen. Was like turn 8 and I still had 2 land.
Beat RDW 2-1
Beat Affinity 2-1
My list, tweaked for my store's meta.
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Path to Exile
4 Ghost Quarter
5 Plains
1 Windbrisk Heights
4 Silverblade Paladin
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Mutavault
2 Student of Warfare
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Temple Garden
4 Razorverge Thicket
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 AEther Vial
3 Serra Avenger
2 Honor of the Pure
3 Loxodon Smiter
SB: 3 Stony Silence
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Brave the Elements
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Honor of the Pure
SB: 2 Sword of War and Peace
SB: 2 Sunlance
SB: 1 Kitchen Finks
Felt really good. Isamaru was great, and the Smiters did work. Serra Avenger was great as well.
Has anyone ever showed you how to use card and deck tags?
Right...I'm in the middle of putting together a preliminary list right now.
I'm looking at PT:RTR and it seems like Jund and Affinity make up of 40% of the field right now, so I'd need to make sure I have decent main decks against it. I'm trying to figure out what I can main against it...Blade Splicers seem obvious to me, and I think Mutavaults are probably necessary as well. Then there's combo/control for a lot of the rest, and it looks to me like the control match isn't terrible, though some combos seem to be a problem. Maybe Jotun Grunts can make the main deck as well? I'm looking at Kitchen Finks, though I'm not sure how that plays in actuality against these decks. I'm also wondering if I need Phyrexian Revokers/Pithing Needles in the 75 somewhere. What are they used for? If they're only used for Pod, isn't the mainboard matchup already quite strong?
I'm pretty much looking for a starting point. The deck that DrWorm posted a while back seems like a good starting point, and I'll probably be trying that out for a bit.
I found Kitchen Finks to be great against any aggroish types of decks. I have even been able to out play Jund decks with Finks and Flickerwisp/Restoration Angel shenanigans.
Right...I'm in the middle of putting together a preliminary list right now.
I'm looking at PT:RTR and it seems like Jund and Affinity make up of 40% of the field right now, so I'd need to make sure I have decent main decks against it. I'm trying to figure out what I can main against it...Blade Splicers seem obvious to me, and I think Mutavaults are probably necessary as well. Then there's combo/control for a lot of the rest, and it looks to me like the control match isn't terrible, though some combos seem to be a problem. Maybe Jotun Grunts can make the main deck as well? I'm looking at Kitchen Finks, though I'm not sure how that plays in actuality against these decks. I'm also wondering if I need Phyrexian Revokers/Pithing Needles in the 75 somewhere. What are they used for? If they're only used for Pod, isn't the mainboard matchup already quite strong?
I'm pretty much looking for a starting point. The deck that DrWorm posted a while back seems like a good starting point, and I'll probably be trying that out for a bit.
↲Yes its a good point to start. If you are a very good player who makes few mistakes then control d and t will reward you. But the deck must be practiced. If you have less magic experience in general then a more aggro build may be easier to learn. Grunt is super in control builds. Revokers not so much anymore as naya pod employs shooters that off him. Splicers and vaults give a good account always. Finks is good but not a four of.
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@Lio, I feel that if you had been playing a more controlly version of D&T, you wouldn't have had the issues you did. Just a few pages back, a RUG player posted on our forum asking for help against us. Further, I've never lost a full match to RUG with my very control oriented build. Admittedly, the control version has other issues, but I feel like its strong mana denial helps greatly with the RUG and Jund matchups. They tend to run a LOT of fetches, and rely on the tempo gained from 1CC or 2CC spells to get them ahead. Thalia, Mindcensor, and Arbiter in combination with Tectonic Edge and GQ just wreck them. They are built to be able to stave off beaters like Silverblade Paladin, (*see affinity*). In my opinion, we are well equipped to deal with those two decks, but we need to do so by beating them at their own game.
Hello all. VERY long time lurker - this might even be my first post. Been in the modern scene online since the beginning, however. Love the format, love this archetype.
I decided to fiddle around with a W/U/r version - I call it Death and American Taxes.
Would be interested to hear your take on it - I have not tested it yet as I have not built it. I'm still brewing it but so far it looks promising enough to give it a go as I collect the pile.
I played a traditional D and T list in my small local tournament this weekend- just 16 or so players and just 4 rounds.
Apart from my inclusion of javalineers over student and two grunts in the two slot, the rest was pretty straightforward traditional control D and T- lots of ETB effects, no mirrans or paladins or serras that populate the aggro lists, just straightforward D and T. Mutavaults over tech edges, and my only green splash was for board cards- Teeg and pridemages.
I won't give the list here unless people want it.
matches of interest:
R1- tron RG. Game one was over by virtue of going first, dropping a thalia T2 after a javalineer t1. It slowed him down so much that mutavault beats with thalia and javalineer meant he scooped after not drawing a third land naturally and having to wait to get search effects off.
G2 I mulled to 4, but still nearly won thanks to a T2 thalia and early vial. Sadly he got me with a min or two to go. Nothing much to learn here- Thalia good, board wipers can be played around a bit, and tron can be gotten off tron with GQs. Ho hum.
R2 was a comfortable 2-0 against a new RB homebrew made with recent aggro cards- v one sided. Nothing to learn from D and T POV.
R3 - storm. Was very pleased to win 2-0 going second in both games, never seeing thalia or boarded cannonist/rule of law effects. A pyromancers ascension being flickered out t5 as he went off for what would have been an easy win was just enough to leave him short of a kill by a measly mana. Nice to disrupt their combo and force them to change plans after they committed to going off.
G2- Boarded teeg was outstanding as was a boarded runed halo. Goblin warrens stopped by the teeg, grapeshot by the halo. He had to get removal for them and could not by the time he was dead. Moral? runed halo is definitely strong in this match- even though it was there mainly for other matches (eg BW tokens).
R4- fae.
A 2-1 win to nick this small tournament.
G1 loss- on the draw- great hand would have won but he went first and he won despite a resolved Thalia T2. Shackles won it, clogging the deck with my Thalia. One key turn had 6 plays- 3 from each side. G2 win- outstanding icatian javalineers in this game- killing cliques, scions, sprites. Really, really good in this match.
G3 a t1 vial and a key play-responding to a t3 EOT play (scion) by vialing in arbiter being able to strip mine an island- his only one to go with two mutavaults. Just got him behind the 8 ball for a turn till he drew the next. It occured to me how similar fae is to D and T- lots of instants, lots of EOT plays, lots of decisions. He who tries to remove stuff first normally gets shafted by the other guy's protective effects- championing and counters vs wisps/stonecloakers.
R4
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Hello all. VERY long time lurker - this might even be my first post. Been in the modern scene online since the beginning, however. Love the format, love this archetype.
I decided to fiddle around with a W/U/r version - I call it Death and American Taxes.
Would be interested to hear your take on it - I have not tested it yet as I have not built it. I'm still brewing it but so far it looks promising enough to give it a go as I collect the pile.
Let me know what you think! Thank you.
11 instants and sorceries with 4 copies of snapcaster. Also 2 GQ, 3 thalias and 4 mindcensors isnt very taxey.
Thanks for the reply. What would you suggest, other than Arbiter for more taxi-ness? The Arbiter won't work well with the fetch lands - though I have thought about dropping red altogether, and running arbiters without the fetches. Something like....
I'm thinking blue is a more difficult splash at the moment since Thalia is just SOO powerful and the reason we have such great match ups against combo/control decks. Hitting your own spells is going to be bothersome, but dropping her down to 2 or less seems unwise, IMO. With 11 spells I'd probably only run 2 Snapcaster Mages (you won't typically have the 4 mana available to cast him and a spell consistently since the deck likes to sac it's own lands a lot. I would run 4 Paths too. Finally, running 2-3 colors with Arbiter isn't too difficult with the Scars duals and Core lands. Minamo doesn't seem as good without Mangara either (there really is no reason to untap Geist since he's not a great blocker).
Thanks for the reply. What would you suggest, other than Arbiter for more taxi-ness? The Arbiter won't work well with the fetch lands - though I have thought about dropping red altogether, and running arbiters without the fetches. Something like....
Forget snappy and mindcensor if u wanna splash blue Vendilion clique or Kira glass spinner are the most relevant cards. Censor is really underhwelming as a 3 drop. Splicer will get u more money there.
Here's another shot at the U/W D&T. I'm thinking Kira > Augustin - but I'm sure there are even better choices than those two in that slot as well. I figured the Augustins can cancel out the Thalia effect on our spells, but at the cost of 4 mana. That would mean most likely dedicating a single vial for your only 2 4cc creatures. Probably not a good choice, that's why Kira at 3cc is better probably.
What do you guys think of the other choices? What kind of SB would you run with this iteration? Will 23 lands be enough?
Forget snappy and mindcensor if u wanna splash blue Vendilion clique or Kira glass spinner are the most relevant cards. Censor is really underhwelming as a 3 drop. Splicer will get u more money there.
Thanks Sagrammore:
I don't know...I find Blade Splicer very underwhelming without the Mutavault package. Until I get me some Mutavaults, I don't know if I'd consider them.
Same deal with Vendillions - all of these cards I'm waiting before I invest in them - a long time to wait till June for the Modern Masters boosters but I'm sure they'll be reprinted and I think the deck can do without those cards anyway. Vendillion is tempting though.
I'm thinking blue is a more difficult splash at the moment since Thalia is just SOO powerful and the reason we have such great match ups against combo/control decks. Hitting your own spells is going to be bothersome, but dropping her down to 2 or less seems unwise, IMO. With 11 spells I'd probably only run 2 Snapcaster Mages (you won't typically have the 4 mana available to cast him and a spell consistently since the deck likes to sac it's own lands a lot. I would run 4 Paths too. Finally, running 2-3 colors with Arbiter isn't too difficult with the Scars duals and Core lands. Minamo doesn't seem as good without Mangara either (there really is no reason to untap Geist since he's not a great blocker).
Thing is, if you're splashing blue, you're playing low-cost disruption (spell snare / remand / path to exile) so the thalia anti-synergy isn't really that big of a deal. Especially when vial is in play, you should have open mana to pay 1 extra for snare or remand. It's not perfect, but Snapcaster mage is really really good with Aether vial, and it's been proven to be good on it's own as well.
We seem to have lots of lists about with less than 4 Thalia, and an increasing number of spells.
I think the WU lists here in particular seem by common consent to be dropping her number down
I intend to do some work on this style of deck- a few months ago I posted I wanted to try a U splash but never had/have the time for it. My big question is can anyone justify to me NOT running four Thalia in the UW lists? I am specifically referring to controlling UW D and T, not an aggro version with fetch lands and lynx.
I will be running for sure
23 land
inc mutavaults and 4 GQ.
4 vial
4 flickerwisp
4 arbiter
4 thalia
4 path
a minimum of 7 flyers
a minimum of 7 etb effects
unless anyone can persuade me otherwise.
suggestions please?
Thanks
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I can vouch for Canonist, as Aidan did. I've been running 3 Thalia, 2 Canonist in my main for some time now (mono-W) and love getting them both out. It's funny that most people will assume Canonist is the main hate bear in your deck if they see her game 1. She messes up your opponents tempo almost as much as Thalia, and completely hoses a few strategies in Tier 1 & 2 decks.
Meddling Mage seems very appealing in UW. The card advantage is just great if they can't remove her since they'll be durdling around with dead cards in hand when she's at her best.
I'm not sure that UW needs or has a better option than Mask of Memory for card draw. It's really quite good.
Mark, have you considered Spellstutter Sprite in your list running Mutavaults?
Thing is, if you're splashing blue, you're playing low-cost disruption (spell snare / remand / path to exile) so the thalia anti-synergy isn't really that big of a deal. Especially when vial is in play, you should have open mana to pay 1 extra for snare or remand. It's not perfect, but Snapcaster mage is really really good with Aether vial, and it's been proven to be good on it's own as well.
I wouldn't do it myself, but I can see splashing blue for certain cards. I do NOT see those cards being counterspells/preventive blue instants. The anti-synergy that blue instants have with the deck is just ridiculous. I've accidentally messed up my game plan with thalia before and all I run is 4 PTE.
You're going to be faced with the choice: Play Thalia and take away the card advantage in hand, or play the spells in hand and abstain from playing Thalia until later. The second option doesn't seem so bad until one realizes that any card advantage we can get through instants and sorceries will be totally outclassed by that of a deck like Jund or Delver. Our usual plan is to land an early Thalia combined with LD to cut off opposing spells at the source, not try to beat them at their own game.
GW D&T makes more sense to me, the green splash brings agressive hatebear creatures etc. Comparatively a blue splash brings attributes of the very popular delver deck. Delver is not D&T, so while the instants that make delver are strong, they have pretty bad synergy with D&T by forcing the D&T player to choose between a weakened Tax plan and a weak Delver plan.
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I've read the previous pages...is it really that hard to get a consistent win streak with this deck? I think I now have all of the cards that are commonly used in the deck, minus the original Mirrodin swords, though I could probably obtain those by then.
I am leaning towards WG, though I can still be swayed to go to other colors. It seems Jund is the deck to beat, so I am willing to build around that.
Keep in mind that I have basically zero experience with Modern.
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
I'm looking at PT:RTR and it seems like Jund and Affinity make up of 40% of the field right now, so I'd need to make sure I have decent main decks against it. I'm trying to figure out what I can main against it...Blade Splicers seem obvious to me, and I think Mutavaults are probably necessary as well. Then there's combo/control for a lot of the rest, and it looks to me like the control match isn't terrible, though some combos seem to be a problem. Maybe Jotun Grunts can make the main deck as well? I'm looking at Kitchen Finks, though I'm not sure how that plays in actuality against these decks. I'm also wondering if I need Phyrexian Revokers/Pithing Needles in the 75 somewhere. What are they used for? If they're only used for Pod, isn't the mainboard matchup already quite strong?
I'm pretty much looking for a starting point. The deck that DrWorm posted a while back seems like a good starting point, and I'll probably be trying that out for a bit.
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
I decided to fiddle around with a W/U/r version - I call it Death and American Taxes.
1x Stonecloaker
3x Serra Avenger
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Aven Mindcensor
2x Mirran Crusader
3x Geist of Saint Traft
1x Silverblade Paladin
4x Æther Vial
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
Instants: 11
4x Remand
3x Path to Exile
4x Lightning Helix
2x Ghost Quarter
2x Moorland Haunt
2x Misty Rainforest
4x Arid Mesa
4x Hallowed Fountain
3x Plains
1x Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1x Eiganjo Castle
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Mountain
1x Steam Vents
1x Island
2x Spell Pierce
2x Meddling Mage
3x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Burrenton Forge-Tender
3x Kitchen Finks
Would be interested to hear your take on it - I have not tested it yet as I have not built it. I'm still brewing it but so far it looks promising enough to give it a go as I collect the pile.
Let me know what you think! Thank you.
My errata'd commons cube
Apart from my inclusion of javalineers over student and two grunts in the two slot, the rest was pretty straightforward traditional control D and T- lots of ETB effects, no mirrans or paladins or serras that populate the aggro lists, just straightforward D and T. Mutavaults over tech edges, and my only green splash was for board cards- Teeg and pridemages.
I won't give the list here unless people want it.
matches of interest:
R1- tron RG. Game one was over by virtue of going first, dropping a thalia T2 after a javalineer t1. It slowed him down so much that mutavault beats with thalia and javalineer meant he scooped after not drawing a third land naturally and having to wait to get search effects off.
G2 I mulled to 4, but still nearly won thanks to a T2 thalia and early vial. Sadly he got me with a min or two to go. Nothing much to learn here- Thalia good, board wipers can be played around a bit, and tron can be gotten off tron with GQs. Ho hum.
R2 was a comfortable 2-0 against a new RB homebrew made with recent aggro cards- v one sided. Nothing to learn from D and T POV.
R3 - storm. Was very pleased to win 2-0 going second in both games, never seeing thalia or boarded cannonist/rule of law effects. A pyromancers ascension being flickered out t5 as he went off for what would have been an easy win was just enough to leave him short of a kill by a measly mana. Nice to disrupt their combo and force them to change plans after they committed to going off.
G2- Boarded teeg was outstanding as was a boarded runed halo. Goblin warrens stopped by the teeg, grapeshot by the halo. He had to get removal for them and could not by the time he was dead. Moral? runed halo is definitely strong in this match- even though it was there mainly for other matches (eg BW tokens).
R4- fae.
A 2-1 win to nick this small tournament.
G1 loss- on the draw- great hand would have won but he went first and he won despite a resolved Thalia T2. Shackles won it, clogging the deck with my Thalia. One key turn had 6 plays- 3 from each side. G2 win- outstanding icatian javalineers in this game- killing cliques, scions, sprites. Really, really good in this match.
G3 a t1 vial and a key play-responding to a t3 EOT play (scion) by vialing in arbiter being able to strip mine an island- his only one to go with two mutavaults. Just got him behind the 8 ball for a turn till he drew the next. It occured to me how similar fae is to D and T- lots of instants, lots of EOT plays, lots of decisions. He who tries to remove stuff first normally gets shafted by the other guy's protective effects- championing and counters vs wisps/stonecloakers.
R4
11 instants and sorceries with 4 copies of snapcaster. Also 2 GQ, 3 thalias and 4 mindcensors isnt very taxey.
4x Serra Avenger
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Snapcaster Mage
4x Aven Mindcensor
4x Leonin Arbiter
3x Geist of Saint Traft
1x Silverblade Paladin
Artifacts: 5
4x Æther Vial
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
Instants: 11
4x Remand
3x Path to Exile
4x Vapor Snag/Spell Snare
4x Ghost Quarter
2x Tectonic Edge
2x Moorland Haunt
4x Hallowed Fountain
5x Plains
1x Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1x Eiganjo Castle
4x Island
2x Spell Pierce
2x Meddling Mage
3x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Burrenton Forge-Tender
3x Kitchen Finks
-1 Mindcensor
-1 Snapcaster
-1 Remand
-4 Hallowed Fountain
-1 Minamo
+1 Path to Exile
+4 Seachrome Coast
+1 Glacial Fortress
+2 Silverblade Paladin
Forget snappy and mindcensor if u wanna splash blue Vendilion clique or Kira glass spinner are the most relevant cards. Censor is really underhwelming as a 3 drop. Splicer will get u more money there.
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Snapcaster Mage
3x Serra Avenger
4x Leonin Arbiter
2x Grand Arbiter Augustin, IV / 2x Kira, Great Glass Spinner
4x Path to Exile
3x Delay/Azorius Charm
3x Vapor Snag
4x AEther Vial
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
3x Glacial Fortress
4x Ghost Quarter
2x Moorland Haunt
5x Islands
3x Plains
1x Mystic Gate
1x Eiganjo Castle
Here's another shot at the U/W D&T. I'm thinking Kira > Augustin - but I'm sure there are even better choices than those two in that slot as well. I figured the Augustins can cancel out the Thalia effect on our spells, but at the cost of 4 mana. That would mean most likely dedicating a single vial for your only 2 4cc creatures. Probably not a good choice, that's why Kira at 3cc is better probably.
What do you guys think of the other choices? What kind of SB would you run with this iteration? Will 23 lands be enough?
Thanks again, everyone!
Thanks Sagrammore:
I don't know...I find Blade Splicer very underwhelming without the Mutavault package. Until I get me some Mutavaults, I don't know if I'd consider them.
Same deal with Vendillions - all of these cards I'm waiting before I invest in them - a long time to wait till June for the Modern Masters boosters but I'm sure they'll be reprinted and I think the deck can do without those cards anyway. Vendillion is tempting though.
Who cares? It's a variant version that uses some counterspells as "taxes".
Thing is, if you're splashing blue, you're playing low-cost disruption (spell snare / remand / path to exile) so the thalia anti-synergy isn't really that big of a deal. Especially when vial is in play, you should have open mana to pay 1 extra for snare or remand. It's not perfect, but Snapcaster mage is really really good with Aether vial, and it's been proven to be good on it's own as well.
I think the WU lists here in particular seem by common consent to be dropping her number down
I intend to do some work on this style of deck- a few months ago I posted I wanted to try a U splash but never had/have the time for it. My big question is can anyone justify to me NOT running four Thalia in the UW lists? I am specifically referring to controlling UW D and T, not an aggro version with fetch lands and lynx.
I will be running for sure
23 land
inc mutavaults and 4 GQ.
4 vial
4 flickerwisp
4 arbiter
4 thalia
4 path
a minimum of 7 flyers
a minimum of 7 etb effects
unless anyone can persuade me otherwise.
suggestions please?
Thanks
Meddling Mage seems very appealing in UW. The card advantage is just great if they can't remove her since they'll be durdling around with dead cards in hand when she's at her best.
I'm not sure that UW needs or has a better option than Mask of Memory for card draw. It's really quite good.
Mark, have you considered Spellstutter Sprite in your list running Mutavaults?
I wouldn't do it myself, but I can see splashing blue for certain cards. I do NOT see those cards being counterspells/preventive blue instants. The anti-synergy that blue instants have with the deck is just ridiculous. I've accidentally messed up my game plan with thalia before and all I run is 4 PTE.
You're going to be faced with the choice: Play Thalia and take away the card advantage in hand, or play the spells in hand and abstain from playing Thalia until later. The second option doesn't seem so bad until one realizes that any card advantage we can get through instants and sorceries will be totally outclassed by that of a deck like Jund or Delver. Our usual plan is to land an early Thalia combined with LD to cut off opposing spells at the source, not try to beat them at their own game.
GW D&T makes more sense to me, the green splash brings agressive hatebear creatures etc. Comparatively a blue splash brings attributes of the very popular delver deck. Delver is not D&T, so while the instants that make delver are strong, they have pretty bad synergy with D&T by forcing the D&T player to choose between a weakened Tax plan and a weak Delver plan.