Round 1: I played against the stupid burn deck, and lost gm 1, to well-placed bolts, etc...
G2: I won by locking him down with arbiter, and finks with avenger and other fliers
G3: He was at 7 and top decked 2 burn spells to kill me which was not what I was expecting. I drew lands for several turns. (Me thinks that Kor Firewalker is going in the deck somewhere)
Round 2: UW Control
G1: He top decked
G2: He ripped and top decked while at 1
Results say this deck is awful atm
not what my testing has shown, at least on the awful part. but yah, lets see the list. i'm not running nodes or vat, i'm running the main list on the OP.
EDIT: please post it here. many people including myself don't use MTGO.
I don't have MTGO, I use Cockatrice. I just did some testing, randomly paired with Pyromancer Ascension. Kind of a good matchup. He ended up ragequitting game 2. Mangara is all you need to take care of the Ascensions, but I have to admit that Stonecloakers are particularly useful in this matchup.
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Tectonic Edge(Not sold on this, and it cuts into the manabase)
16 Plains
4 AEther Vial
4 Path to Exile
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Kor Firewalker(noticing an increase in Zoo, and burn!)
4 Serra Avenger
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Stonecloaker(4 was too many!)
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
2 Aven Mindcensor(not sure about this)
SB
2 Porphyry Nodes
3 Angel's Grace
2 Hokori, Dust Drinker(very good against control)
3 Ghostly Prison(Aggro)
3 Pithing Needle
2 Leonin Relic Warden(to cheat out against various decks)
-i'm not sold on finks
-3 cloaker is the right number, thats what i'm running
-firewalker should be in the side when you add it
-pithing needle should be phyrexian revoker
-id be playing 4 mangara and 4 mindcensor
-a couple relic of progenitus has been nice in the side, against living end and pyromancer
-without forbidden orchard, nodes don't seem very good
-hive mind isn't big, i'd cut the grace
all in all, it's an ok list, but i think the sdbd needs serious help. please check my list in the OP (agree it needs firewalker, but idk what to take out). jotun grunt and oust seems better than prison for aggro (as well as grunt is good for racing and hurting graves), and ethersworn canonist is awesome.
With the metagame as is, I would say finks saves me in a lot of games I should lose. Finks must stay in the deck, needle is much better and can't be burned out.
The obvious power here is Minamo+Mangara+Crystal Shard/Vedalken Mastermind. Kicking out two permanents per turn is pure havoc, and throw in Thousand-Year Elixir (which has slowly been taking Mimic Vat's slots) to up that count and take away Mangara's only real drawback--lack of haste.
Vedalken Mastermind also has mad synergy with Oblivion Ring to compliment Mangara.
The Mastermind and Shard up your bag of combat tricks, acting as Karakas for ALL of your creatures. Vialing in the Riftwatcher to block, then popping him back to hand gives massive tempo swings that Kitchen Finks can't match. Of course the Finks play just as nicely and can die before needing to be rescued. Reusing Stonecloakers and Ninja of the Deep Hours (who is also nuts with the Riftwatcher) is helpful as well.
There have been more than a few games where I have been able to vial in Mangara to block, exile something, use the Elixir to exile something else, use Minamo to exile something else, then either Flickerwisp Mangara to safety (And take out another permanent if needed) or bounce him. Also common is vialing in the Mastermind and Mangara one after the other to maximize the the tempo gained from the Vial for a fast lock with Minamo.
Other routes I've been considering:
Swapping the lifegain package for different varieties of hate bears: Lifegain just seems to be a good catch-all.
Fatestitcher: To fill the shoes of both Thousand-Year Elixir and Gideon's Lawkeeper while tying up less mana than either. Tideforce Elemental is similar, but has the magic 3CMC.
Fetches and shocks over filter: With Mastermind and Mangara requiring heavy color, Mystic Gate has proven more than adequate and I don't feel that the standard land package adds enough to warrant the price tag.
Counterspells: Because it's blue and I can use Mana Tithe as well.
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV: Because Mana Tithe is even better when it's always in play. And casting Cloakers/Birds/Finks/Mangara for 2 never hurts.
Leonin Relic-Warder: More synergy with Mastermind/Shard, but probably not as good as O-Ring. Want to see how it is vialing him into those cards though.
My list is a good stretch away from standard D&T, but I prefer being able to grind the long game over hoping to aggro out early--and there's no build that's as fun as machine-gunning with Mangara. Regardless of the rest of the list, Minamo probably deserves at least two slots in any list that can handle it. And even in those that can't. 4 Minamo+4 Mystic Gate can go a long way.
Hey Sigis, the build looks awesome! It's very original and chalk-full of abusive tricks that should be the hallmark of D+T. How does the deck perform against some of the Tier 1 decks? I can imagine it takes a while to get a lot of pieces set up, no? How's your Dragonstorm match up? I'll take your list for a spin since it looks very interesting and well-executed.
As for the discussion above, I believe D+T is very flexible and should be played as such, be it Mono-W or W/U. By "flexible" I mean that there are probably several competitive deck lists running around, but each particular list should be focused. Is the plan mana denial? Then play 7-8 mana denial creatures, and 7-8 LD lands. Is the plan to hate out one particular deck archetype? Then play 8+ creatures that focus on that archetype (Cannonist for combo... or Finks for aggro... etc.). I don't think a D+T list should be spilt too much and have a few Firewalkers, a few Mindcensors, and a few LD lands, and a few Cannonists. It should pick one strategy or another and be built for consistency.
My list is focused on LD and mana denial since I expect to face many Post/Trons decks, and 3-color aggro/control decks with fragile mana bases. Everything is consistent and I don't have to worry about pulling out just the pieces and just the right time to beat the deck across the table. I know the answers are in the deck and near the top. I have a few trouble match ups but I have a solid game plan for games 2-3.
Sigis's build is very very different from my own, choosing not to focus at all on mana denial. It's ALL about combat tricks and board control. His game plan consistently hates on every permanent-based deck strategy. However, he may have trouble with heavy control or burn if he takes too long to set up his land-exiling engine.
My point is you can't be split on your strategy. It's one or the other. Find out what's in your meta, and build your deck to defeat it. If you're looking for something the packs a little bit of this-and-that... play Bant! Bant is balanced, Zenith's for answers, counters the key spells, can aggro like a champ, life gain like a champ, and has a sideboard diverse enough to answer Legacy. The problem (for me) with Bant is the price tag and the consistency. What if you draw a Tarmogoyf when all you really needed was a Qasali Pridemage?
Long live Death and Taxes and all the ensuing rage-quits!
Burn isn't too scary, the Finks+Riftwatcher team have managed to keep me alive long enough to stabilize. Storm and Living End are the toughest matchups, because if I can't cripple them before they set off, I have no chance. As was suggested, this tears apart aggro and other permanent-based strategies. The normally scary Doran team are 50-50 in my experience. The blue matchup doesn't change much, but as long as I have a Vial on 1, I'm a lot better of than Mono-White.
I think I'm liking the lifegain pack in the main, since it's pretty much the best catch-all. Filling the sideboard with hatebears for different matchups might be the way to go. Meddling Mage should help with the Storm and Living End, Jotun Grunt to fight Dredge and Living End, Phyrexian Revoker for general utility, Mindcensor and/or Arbiter for Tron/Post/any deck that runs more than six fetches.
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Death Vish | High on Crackblade | Ooze the Boss | Long Live the King | Fomori Face Fister
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I haven't been able to test against Affinity very much, sadly, as it seems to be growing in popularity. I'm not 100% on my sideboard at the moment and could use some suggestions. I loveGhostly Prison against aggro, but the Affinity matches have had me wishing for a Wrath effect. I'm scared to use Wrath against decks like Jund or Zoo because I need to develop the board as quickly as they do, and they can both build back up quite easily. Elves and Affinity seem to be the best reasons to run Wrath, but they aren't as common right now.
Also, Silence is a neat card against Storm-based combos, but has to be perfectly timed and can still be played around. I'm looking for suggestions against Storm Combos. The WU list looks attractive for this reason alone.
Just thought I'd throw this out there: Flagstones of Trokair should be played in this deck, for the sole reason that it's a W source that is land destruction proof. I can't stress it enough. Getting Stone Rained/Boomed/Busted out is awful, but having the ability to bounce back is amazing.
i like the mistmeadow witch the most... very cheap and easy on mana base... basically pay 2wu exile target permanent with mangara of corondor...Right??
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YUMA, AZ
I started in SAGA and quit at kamigawa... just came back in nov,2010
Just thought I'd throw this out there: Flagstones of Trokair should be played in this deck, for the sole reason that it's a W source that is land destruction proof. I can't stress it enough. Getting Stone Rained/Boomed/Busted out is awful, but having the ability to bounce back is amazing.
The reason I don't personally run Flagstones is because I can't have more than 1 on the field at any time, assuming I'm attempting to protect myself from LD. I don't face much land hate myself... probably just my meta. I don't like the though of having 1 on the field and another sitting in my hand, especially during the first four turns when my tempo could be badly affected. Also, since I run out Leonin Arbiter ASAP most games I could potentially screw myself.
Lantern Control
(with videos)
Uc Tron
Netdecking explained
Netdecking explained, Part 2
On speculators and counterfeits
On Interaction
Every single competitive deck in existence is designed to limit the opponent's ability to interact in a meaningful way.
Record number of exclamation points on SCG homepage: 71 (6 January, 2018)
"I don't want to believe, I want to know."
-Carl Sagan
not what my testing has shown, at least on the awful part. but yah, lets see the list. i'm not running nodes or vat, i'm running the main list on the OP.
EDIT: please post it here. many people including myself don't use MTGO.
Lantern Control
(with videos)
Uc Tron
Netdecking explained
Netdecking explained, Part 2
On speculators and counterfeits
On Interaction
Every single competitive deck in existence is designed to limit the opponent's ability to interact in a meaningful way.
Record number of exclamation points on SCG homepage: 71 (6 January, 2018)
"I don't want to believe, I want to know."
-Carl Sagan
2 Tectonic Edge(Not sold on this, and it cuts into the manabase)
16 Plains
4 AEther Vial
4 Path to Exile
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Kor Firewalker(noticing an increase in Zoo, and burn!)
4 Serra Avenger
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Stonecloaker(4 was too many!)
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
2 Aven Mindcensor(not sure about this)
SB
2 Porphyry Nodes
3 Angel's Grace
2 Hokori, Dust Drinker(very good against control)
3 Ghostly Prison(Aggro)
3 Pithing Needle
2 Leonin Relic Warden(to cheat out against various decks)
-3 cloaker is the right number, thats what i'm running
-firewalker should be in the side when you add it
-pithing needle should be phyrexian revoker
-id be playing 4 mangara and 4 mindcensor
-a couple relic of progenitus has been nice in the side, against living end and pyromancer
-without forbidden orchard, nodes don't seem very good
-hive mind isn't big, i'd cut the grace
all in all, it's an ok list, but i think the sdbd needs serious help. please check my list in the OP (agree it needs firewalker, but idk what to take out). jotun grunt and oust seems better than prison for aggro (as well as grunt is good for racing and hurting graves), and ethersworn canonist is awesome.
4 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
8 Plains
2 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Mystic Gate
4 Seachrome Coast
18 Core
4 Mangara of Corondor
4 Flickerwisp
3 Stonecloaker
4 Æther Vial
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Crystal Shard
1 Mimic Vat
1 Thousand-Year Elixir
12 Creatures
3 Aven Riftwatcher
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
3 Vedalken Mastermind
The obvious power here is Minamo+Mangara+Crystal Shard/Vedalken Mastermind. Kicking out two permanents per turn is pure havoc, and throw in Thousand-Year Elixir (which has slowly been taking Mimic Vat's slots) to up that count and take away Mangara's only real drawback--lack of haste.
Vedalken Mastermind also has mad synergy with Oblivion Ring to compliment Mangara.
The Mastermind and Shard up your bag of combat tricks, acting as Karakas for ALL of your creatures. Vialing in the Riftwatcher to block, then popping him back to hand gives massive tempo swings that Kitchen Finks can't match. Of course the Finks play just as nicely and can die before needing to be rescued. Reusing Stonecloakers and Ninja of the Deep Hours (who is also nuts with the Riftwatcher) is helpful as well.
There have been more than a few games where I have been able to vial in Mangara to block, exile something, use the Elixir to exile something else, use Minamo to exile something else, then either Flickerwisp Mangara to safety (And take out another permanent if needed) or bounce him. Also common is vialing in the Mastermind and Mangara one after the other to maximize the the tempo gained from the Vial for a fast lock with Minamo.
Other routes I've been considering:
Swapping the lifegain package for different varieties of hate bears: Lifegain just seems to be a good catch-all.
Fatestitcher: To fill the shoes of both Thousand-Year Elixir and Gideon's Lawkeeper while tying up less mana than either. Tideforce Elemental is similar, but has the magic 3CMC.
Fetches and shocks over filter: With Mastermind and Mangara requiring heavy color, Mystic Gate has proven more than adequate and I don't feel that the standard land package adds enough to warrant the price tag.
Counterspells: Because it's blue and I can use Mana Tithe as well.
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV: Because Mana Tithe is even better when it's always in play. And casting Cloakers/Birds/Finks/Mangara for 2 never hurts.
Leonin Relic-Warder: More synergy with Mastermind/Shard, but probably not as good as O-Ring. Want to see how it is vialing him into those cards though.
My list is a good stretch away from standard D&T, but I prefer being able to grind the long game over hoping to aggro out early--and there's no build that's as fun as machine-gunning with Mangara. Regardless of the rest of the list, Minamo probably deserves at least two slots in any list that can handle it. And even in those that can't. 4 Minamo+4 Mystic Gate can go a long way.
As for the discussion above, I believe D+T is very flexible and should be played as such, be it Mono-W or W/U. By "flexible" I mean that there are probably several competitive deck lists running around, but each particular list should be focused. Is the plan mana denial? Then play 7-8 mana denial creatures, and 7-8 LD lands. Is the plan to hate out one particular deck archetype? Then play 8+ creatures that focus on that archetype (Cannonist for combo... or Finks for aggro... etc.). I don't think a D+T list should be spilt too much and have a few Firewalkers, a few Mindcensors, and a few LD lands, and a few Cannonists. It should pick one strategy or another and be built for consistency.
My list is focused on LD and mana denial since I expect to face many Post/Trons decks, and 3-color aggro/control decks with fragile mana bases. Everything is consistent and I don't have to worry about pulling out just the pieces and just the right time to beat the deck across the table. I know the answers are in the deck and near the top. I have a few trouble match ups but I have a solid game plan for games 2-3.
Sigis's build is very very different from my own, choosing not to focus at all on mana denial. It's ALL about combat tricks and board control. His game plan consistently hates on every permanent-based deck strategy. However, he may have trouble with heavy control or burn if he takes too long to set up his land-exiling engine.
My point is you can't be split on your strategy. It's one or the other. Find out what's in your meta, and build your deck to defeat it. If you're looking for something the packs a little bit of this-and-that... play Bant! Bant is balanced, Zenith's for answers, counters the key spells, can aggro like a champ, life gain like a champ, and has a sideboard diverse enough to answer Legacy. The problem (for me) with Bant is the price tag and the consistency. What if you draw a Tarmogoyf when all you really needed was a Qasali Pridemage?
Long live Death and Taxes and all the ensuing rage-quits!
I think I'm liking the lifegain pack in the main, since it's pretty much the best catch-all. Filling the sideboard with hatebears for different matchups might be the way to go. Meddling Mage should help with the Storm and Living End, Jotun Grunt to fight Dredge and Living End, Phyrexian Revoker for general utility, Mindcensor and/or Arbiter for Tron/Post/any deck that runs more than six fetches.
3x Aven Mindcensor
4x Serra Avenger
4x Kitchen Finks
3x Mangara of Corondor
4x Flickerwisp
4x Stonecloaker
4x Path to Exile
3x Oblivion Ring
15x Plains
4x Tectonic Edge
4x Ghost Quarter
4x Ghostly Prison
4x Tormod's Crypt
4x Silence
3x Phyrexian Revoker
Sideboard Strategy:
Zoo: -3 Oblivion Ring, -1 Mangara, +4 Ghostly Prison
Jund: -3 Oblivion Ring, -1 Stonecloaker, +4 Ghostly Prison
12-Post: No sideboard necessary, hehe.
Living End: -3 Oblivion Ring, -1 Mangara, +4 Tormod's Crypt
Melira: -2 Kitchen Finks, -1 Stonecloaker, +3 Phyrexian Revoker
Storm: -3 Mangara, -1 Stonecloaker, +4 Silence
Faeries: -3 Oblivion Ring, -1 Stonecloaker, +4 Ghostly Prison
Elves: -2 Kitchen Finks, -1 Stonecloaker, +3 Phyrexian Revoker
Affinity: Not enough testing
AIR: Not enough testing
I haven't been able to test against Affinity very much, sadly, as it seems to be growing in popularity. I'm not 100% on my sideboard at the moment and could use some suggestions. I love Ghostly Prison against aggro, but the Affinity matches have had me wishing for a Wrath effect. I'm scared to use Wrath against decks like Jund or Zoo because I need to develop the board as quickly as they do, and they can both build back up quite easily. Elves and Affinity seem to be the best reasons to run Wrath, but they aren't as common right now.
Also, Silence is a neat card against Storm-based combos, but has to be perfectly timed and can still be played around. I'm looking for suggestions against Storm Combos. The WU list looks attractive for this reason alone.
Commander GU Edric Control
i like the mistmeadow witch the most... very cheap and easy on mana base... basically pay 2wu exile target permanent with mangara of corondor...Right??
YUMA, AZ
The reason I don't personally run Flagstones is because I can't have more than 1 on the field at any time, assuming I'm attempting to protect myself from LD. I don't face much land hate myself... probably just my meta. I don't like the though of having 1 on the field and another sitting in my hand, especially during the first four turns when my tempo could be badly affected. Also, since I run out Leonin Arbiter ASAP most games I could potentially screw myself.
Seems good. disposable mangara.