Always go first. The sooner your Vials are prepped at 3 counters the sooner you're ready to go to town on your opponent. A Leonin Arbiter on the board before they can get their second land down is great. You'll also need further land development than the opponent to make the most of your LD. There aren't many decks that benefit from drawing first.
The deck is highly interactive (my favorite thing about it), which makes it fun to play but also difficult to master. You'll have to know plenty about the opposing decks, especially in the 2nd and 3rd game, to maximize your chances. You'll have a multitude of options to choose from each turn since the mana curve is clumped around the 3cc and Vials may or may not be active. My advice is to test with it as much as possible and read through the tricks in the OP if you need an introduction.
Why not Sun Titan?
He returns ALL the deck is it not cool?
Too expensive. You'll generally not get above 6 mana until late in the game, and he'd take up slots that could be more constructively used. It's not worth it for it to just sit in your hand the whole game.
@ Why the deck isn't stickied: It was not predicted to be prevalent enough to warrant a sticky. This may change depending on results once tournament data starts coming in.
@korsakovia: well that's a let down. pre-bannings it tested extremely well against most net-decks, and post bannings it seems good as well (from the games i played, even better actually).
@feared: you are right. also, about red... you can splash anything you want. thats what's nice about this deck. all of the 4 other colors can be splashable. i like red cuz of moon and ajani vengeant, but it's not the main list. mono-white is the main list, and my favorite right now. it's awkward to have fetches in the same deck as arbiter. (ohmygosh, need to update my colored decklists then)
also, trinisphere is cool, but it can hurt having to spend 3 on a pte, esspecially when the deck loses lands often when using ghost quarter and tectonic edge. but it is obviously powerful, and i haven't tested with it yet.
i tested more, and it still seems very good. arbiter is a HOUSE. the matchup has definitely improved against a bunch of decks, and not to many matchups got worse, or so it seems. strip mining them turn 3 seems to happen often, and its awesome.
Just to keep conversation going, I did test my version out yesterday. I played against what looked like Five-Color Scepter. My opponent resolved two Scepters, one with Lightning Helix and one with Mana Leak. I just waited it out until I could resolve a Mimic Vat and then a Mangara, and he scooped. I still think this is the way to go. I have decided on using Leonin Arbiters over Aven Mindcensors.
couldn´t momentary blink help here? It´s cheaper than sculler+stonecloaker, has flashback (so it works as 8 additional remove/enter the battlefield triggers, removes creatures from combat and does all the other shinanigans, funtions as karakas with mangara/wisp/sculler, you can run 1 island or hallowed fountain or whatever to fetch for the flashback so you don´t have to heavly splash blue in, might let you side meddling mage for combos, etc etc.
Why would you want to play tec edge here again?? Sure it keeps them at 4 mana, but the real combo seems to be the ghost quarter/leonin/aven combo, this is "supposing" they have 3 or less lands probably.
I notice that Spellskite isn't included in the primer.
It certainly has an interesting effect, and between Arbiters, Revokers, and Mangara, there are quite a few creatures we want to protect. As for what to replace, I'd look at Serra Avenger first, since although it's super efficient at beating, it doesn't do any disrupting at all.
Also, could Stonehewer Giant have a place in the sideboard, with a few Swords? It's expensive, but it does have a pretty powerful ability. There could be situations where I'd love to side in 2 of them and 1 or 2 Swords.
@thnkr: how does mimic vat help in that situation?
@pablito: momentary blink is an option, but generally the deck wants more creatures. and tec edge is a more of a "why not?" situation. it also turns out to be pretty good when trying to keep a 3 color deck off of one of their colors, or just to keep decks from getting to high up in their mana. 12post is one of those examples.
@mwong: spellskite does seem decent. and i also agree avenger seems to be lacking without SFM. however, it seems hard to win when the deck only has so many fliers, so i think i will keep it in for the sake of having a stronger win-con. spellskite just doesn't seem to do what the deck wants anyways. it takes up a precious slot.
I test, and I test, and I test... and this is by far my favorite deck in Modern (thought that might have been obvious). It truly is a reliable deck with considerable game versus all the big players and any home-brewed fanciness you can throw my way. It's consistent, doesn't require keys cards to win, and has multiple answers for most threats (not just 4 in the SB, but I'm taking 4+ main, then 6, 8, or 10 answers post-boarding).
@pablito: momentary blink is an option, but generally the deck wants more creatures. and tec edge is a more of a "why not?" situation. it also turns out to be pretty good when trying to keep a 3 color deck off of one of their colors, or just to keep decks from getting to high up in their mana. 12post is one of those examples.
The deck definitely wants more creatures. And Tectonic Edge is necessary against 12-post. You could play this deck fine with 2-3 Tech Edges, but your 12-Post matchup will suffer because of it. Sure, there have been games where I was only able to draw 1 Plains and desperately needed another. Mana screw or color screw happens to all of us, but ultimately I think having answers precisely when you need it for Grove and Post/Tron is very, very beneficial. Considering the strategy of the deck I'm happy with my 8 Wasteland/Stripmines.
@mwong: spellskite does seem decent. and i also agree avenger seems to be lacking without SFM. however, it seems hard to win when the deck only has so many fliers, so i think i will keep it in for the sake of having a stronger win-con. spellskite just doesn't seem to do what the deck wants anyways. it takes up a precious slot.
I disagree 100% with taking out Serra Avenger. This deck packs disruption, yes, but lets not forget that the namesake is Death & Taxes! I absolutely believe that making this deck focus too much on disruption will not work. If you remove Avenger from the deck you may as well play MWC... which is better at what the deck would be trying to do. It's incredibly important to not only disrupt the enemy, but to also create a clock. Mana denial doesn't last forever! Mana denial will help slow the enemy down, but it is by no means a win-con. Every deck CAN fight through D+T's mana denial, and one decent creature on the board can fight through our line of weaklings quite easily. It's our job to make sure we capitalize on our opponent's setback with some threats of our own.
Any game I've stolen (stolen!!) required a Serra Avenger, Kitchen Finks, or both. If you can manage to stick TWO Avengers down for a turn or two... good game! The deck needs a clock. Without SFM, Avenger is all that we really have to consistently rely on.
Apart from against Punishing Fire, I don't see how Avenger is any more reliable than 'Wisp, Mindcensors and Stonecloakers at providing an evasive clock. Sure it has vigilance, and might trade for one of their attackers in a race, but that's it.
I actually disagree with tomathan88 - we're loaded with fliers. The only flier you'll commonly see is Clique, so I think it's safe to say we'll usually control the skies.
The reason why I suggested spellskite is because DnT relies on hatebears and Mangara to stop your opponent while you beat face. Spellskite makes sure your hatebears live longer. Given how crucial it is to have an Arbiter, I'd gladly trade some Avengers for Spellskites to protect them.
I'm not saying Spellskite should definitely be in your 60. I just wanted to point out that what is getting you the win is the hatebear's effect, not the slightly quicker beats you could dish out.
@thnkr: how does mimic vat help in that situation?
The opponent had no good play. If he let me untap with Mangara no longer sick, then I can start exiling cards (I had Stonecloaker in hand and the mana to pay for the Mana Leak), and he couldn't kill Mangara because I had the Mimic Vat out. What he didn't know was that I also had another Mangara in hand. It was just a bad scenario all around. His only out was bouncing my Vat, which it appears he had not considered packing bounce spells in his deck (or a way to tutor for them).
If I had not had the Mimic Vat, then he could have just killed my Mangara immediately (I was tapped out, had to pay the extra to resolve Mangara against the Mana Leak, so I couldn't Stonecloaker it). Then, even if I had my other Mangara in hand resolve, he could just do the same again. The Mimic Vat won me the game.
Apart from against Punishing Fire, I don't see how Avenger is any more reliable than 'Wisp, Mindcensors and Stonecloakers at providing an evasive clock. Sure it has vigilance, and might trade for one of their attackers in a race, but that's it.
I actually disagree with tomathan88 - we're loaded with fliers. The only flier you'll commonly see is Clique, so I think it's safe to say we'll usually control the skies.
The reason why I suggested spellskite is because DnT relies on hatebears and Mangara to stop your opponent while you beat face. Spellskite makes sure your hatebears live longer. Given how crucial it is to have an Arbiter, I'd gladly trade some Avengers for Spellskites to protect them.
I'm not saying Spellskite should definitely be in your 60. I just wanted to point out that what is getting you the win is the hatebear's effect, not the slightly quicker beats you could dish out.
Avenger fills a niche different from the one filled by Wisp, Cloaker, and the Mindcensor. The difference is that all the Tax effects in this deck (aside from Arbiter) need to be played at the most opportune time, not ramped out ASAP. Some games they'll be played very early, some games you'll have to hold onto them to take full advantage of them. You can't reliably use the disruption pieces to provide a clock, and Spellskite slows down the clock considerably.
To address your second point, hate bears do not win the game and neither do the beaters. This deck relies on both cards to get the job done and works best with a balance of both of them. Also, the deck doesn't rely on one particular beater or hate bear more than another. Avenger is the best beater, but Wisp/Cloaker can swoop in when Avenger has been answered. Arbiter is a house, but Mangara tricks and Mindcensor offer even more utility. Sacrificing beaters to protect an Arbiter or Mangara doesn't seem ideal, to me at least. The fun comes from an opponent unsure whether to remove Avenger, or Mangara, or Arbiter, or Mindcensor, or Finks... and you knowing that whatever is removed will just be replaced with a creature as annoying as the other. I feel that the idea of "I need Spellskite to protect my primary win-con" is unfounded as the deck has no primary win-con, just a ton of creatures working together in unison with remarkable synergy.
In my U/W build, I've found Minamo, School at Water's Edge to do a very good job of filling Karakas' legendary land slot. Two uses out of Mangara before Sharding him back to hand? Unbelievable. Testing Fatestitcher to get 3+ uses per turn. Crystal Shard+Vedalken Mastermind allow recycling of Flickerwisp and Aven Riftwatcher, while the Mastermind lets your O-Rings do a lovely Mangara impression.
Obviously this build is more built for the long game than white aggro, but I've had it come out of the gates taking out 2+ permanents per turn on turn four. Minamo is a MUST in all blue builds, the perfect compliment to Crystal Shard.
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@sigismond0: wow! thats right, i never realized that! i think this calls for a UW list in the primer. do you mind giving me yours, so i have a base to start on. yes, great call on minamo.
@daugarden: i'm really glad you are here, by the looks of it you seem to be a long term contributor to this primer. thanks very much!
@nwong: i know we have other fliers, it just doesn't seem like enough to provide a consistent flow of creatures, especially if your opponent packs heavy removal. i'm not heavily sided against you, and i know 'skite is good, but i think daugarden pretty much sums up my thoughts as well. DnT seems to want avenger more than it wants 'skite. it shall be added to the options section of the primer. also, as a side not, DnT does really "rely" on hatebears and mangara; while its a big part of the deck, many games are won without every seeing mangara or some of the other cards. as daugarden stated, DnT is awesome because it doesn't rely heavily on any one card; most hands are pretty good as long as you have an OK curve and land amount. thanks for keepin up the discussion though, and thanks for the suggestion! hope to see you on here a lot as well!
EDIT: i'm trying to improve the matchup section, but i haven't done a HUGE amount of testing post bannings. anyone care to put there thoughts on some of the matchups (doesn't need to be all that was there before, just whatever you've played against a few times; please don't give an opinion if you've only played one game or match against a deck; needs to be at least 2 matches)
To any of you who are interested in seeing this deck in action. I am playing in the 4 RD daily for Modern on MTGO and will post my matches, and a description. I have been keeping my list under wraps for various reasons, but I most likely will share. My name on there is M_Margolis1987, if you'd like to watch the matches.
The worst matchups seem to be aggro based, and the deck is not super easy to play for someone who has know idea about it. I think Zoo is the worst matchup, and 12Post is not an easy matchup but at the same time not a bad one. You just need to mulligan differently with them. I would recommend going to 4 arbiter maindeck as it makes ghost quarter into strip mines, and affects the elves, and 12post matchups dramatically in our favor. The deck is meant to be a midrange combo control deck. I agree that Avengers cannot be cut, but I would consider possibly adding mirran crusader in the board for the zoo matchup.
That is all I can say right now, I am somewhat impressed with nodes, and not sure about vat.
To any of you who are interested in seeing this deck in action. I am playing in the 4 RD daily for Modern on MTGO and will post my matches, and a description. I have been keeping my list under wraps for various reasons, but I most likely will share. My name on there is M_Margolis1987, if you'd like to watch the matches.
awesome! i'm so excited to have this go public, even if it's only a little. i feel it deserves to. unfortunately i can't watch, but i'm excited to hear the results. hope it does well!
@2nd post EDIT: alright, thanks for the feedback. i haven't played against zoo yet, but it used to be a pretty even matchup pre-bannings. i guess nodes will help. i also assumed it would be pretty good matchup as i killed jund every time i played it, so idk... also, i do run 4 arbiter MD, check the OP.
Round 1: I played against the stupid burn deck, and lost gm 1, to well-placed bolts, etc...
G2: I won by locking him down with arbiter, and finks with avenger and other fliers
G3: He was at 7 and top decked 2 burn spells to kill me which was not what I was expecting. I drew lands for several turns. (Me thinks that Kor Firewalker is going in the deck somewhere)
Round 2: UW Control
G1: He top decked
G2: He ripped and top decked while at 1
Results say this deck is awful atm
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The deck is highly interactive (my favorite thing about it), which makes it fun to play but also difficult to master. You'll have to know plenty about the opposing decks, especially in the 2nd and 3rd game, to maximize your chances. You'll have a multitude of options to choose from each turn since the mana curve is clumped around the 3cc and Vials may or may not be active. My advice is to test with it as much as possible and read through the tricks in the OP if you need an introduction.
Too expensive. You'll generally not get above 6 mana until late in the game, and he'd take up slots that could be more constructively used. It's not worth it for it to just sit in your hand the whole game.
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@feared: you are right. also, about red... you can splash anything you want. thats what's nice about this deck. all of the 4 other colors can be splashable. i like red cuz of moon and ajani vengeant, but it's not the main list. mono-white is the main list, and my favorite right now. it's awkward to have fetches in the same deck as arbiter. (ohmygosh, need to update my colored decklists then)
also, trinisphere is cool, but it can hurt having to spend 3 on a pte, esspecially when the deck loses lands often when using ghost quarter and tectonic edge. but it is obviously powerful, and i haven't tested with it yet.
keep testing and posting people.
Lantern Control
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Netdecking explained
Netdecking explained, Part 2
On speculators and counterfeits
On Interaction
Every single competitive deck in existence is designed to limit the opponent's ability to interact in a meaningful way.
Record number of exclamation points on SCG homepage: 71 (6 January, 2018)
"I don't want to believe, I want to know."
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Why would you want to play tec edge here again?? Sure it keeps them at 4 mana, but the real combo seems to be the ghost quarter/leonin/aven combo, this is "supposing" they have 3 or less lands probably.
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It certainly has an interesting effect, and between Arbiters, Revokers, and Mangara, there are quite a few creatures we want to protect. As for what to replace, I'd look at Serra Avenger first, since although it's super efficient at beating, it doesn't do any disrupting at all.
Also, could Stonehewer Giant have a place in the sideboard, with a few Swords? It's expensive, but it does have a pretty powerful ability. There could be situations where I'd love to side in 2 of them and 1 or 2 Swords.
@pablito: momentary blink is an option, but generally the deck wants more creatures. and tec edge is a more of a "why not?" situation. it also turns out to be pretty good when trying to keep a 3 color deck off of one of their colors, or just to keep decks from getting to high up in their mana. 12post is one of those examples.
@mwong: spellskite does seem decent. and i also agree avenger seems to be lacking without SFM. however, it seems hard to win when the deck only has so many fliers, so i think i will keep it in for the sake of having a stronger win-con. spellskite just doesn't seem to do what the deck wants anyways. it takes up a precious slot.
The deck definitely wants more creatures. And Tectonic Edge is necessary against 12-post. You could play this deck fine with 2-3 Tech Edges, but your 12-Post matchup will suffer because of it. Sure, there have been games where I was only able to draw 1 Plains and desperately needed another. Mana screw or color screw happens to all of us, but ultimately I think having answers precisely when you need it for Grove and Post/Tron is very, very beneficial. Considering the strategy of the deck I'm happy with my 8 Wasteland/Stripmines.
I disagree 100% with taking out Serra Avenger. This deck packs disruption, yes, but lets not forget that the namesake is Death & Taxes! I absolutely believe that making this deck focus too much on disruption will not work. If you remove Avenger from the deck you may as well play MWC... which is better at what the deck would be trying to do. It's incredibly important to not only disrupt the enemy, but to also create a clock. Mana denial doesn't last forever! Mana denial will help slow the enemy down, but it is by no means a win-con. Every deck CAN fight through D+T's mana denial, and one decent creature on the board can fight through our line of weaklings quite easily. It's our job to make sure we capitalize on our opponent's setback with some threats of our own.
Any game I've stolen (stolen!!) required a Serra Avenger, Kitchen Finks, or both. If you can manage to stick TWO Avengers down for a turn or two... good game! The deck needs a clock. Without SFM, Avenger is all that we really have to consistently rely on.
I actually disagree with tomathan88 - we're loaded with fliers. The only flier you'll commonly see is Clique, so I think it's safe to say we'll usually control the skies.
The reason why I suggested spellskite is because DnT relies on hatebears and Mangara to stop your opponent while you beat face. Spellskite makes sure your hatebears live longer. Given how crucial it is to have an Arbiter, I'd gladly trade some Avengers for Spellskites to protect them.
I'm not saying Spellskite should definitely be in your 60. I just wanted to point out that what is getting you the win is the hatebear's effect, not the slightly quicker beats you could dish out.
The opponent had no good play. If he let me untap with Mangara no longer sick, then I can start exiling cards (I had Stonecloaker in hand and the mana to pay for the Mana Leak), and he couldn't kill Mangara because I had the Mimic Vat out. What he didn't know was that I also had another Mangara in hand. It was just a bad scenario all around. His only out was bouncing my Vat, which it appears he had not considered packing bounce spells in his deck (or a way to tutor for them).
If I had not had the Mimic Vat, then he could have just killed my Mangara immediately (I was tapped out, had to pay the extra to resolve Mangara against the Mana Leak, so I couldn't Stonecloaker it). Then, even if I had my other Mangara in hand resolve, he could just do the same again. The Mimic Vat won me the game.
Lantern Control
(with videos)
Uc Tron
Netdecking explained
Netdecking explained, Part 2
On speculators and counterfeits
On Interaction
Every single competitive deck in existence is designed to limit the opponent's ability to interact in a meaningful way.
Record number of exclamation points on SCG homepage: 71 (6 January, 2018)
"I don't want to believe, I want to know."
-Carl Sagan
Avenger fills a niche different from the one filled by Wisp, Cloaker, and the Mindcensor. The difference is that all the Tax effects in this deck (aside from Arbiter) need to be played at the most opportune time, not ramped out ASAP. Some games they'll be played very early, some games you'll have to hold onto them to take full advantage of them. You can't reliably use the disruption pieces to provide a clock, and Spellskite slows down the clock considerably.
To address your second point, hate bears do not win the game and neither do the beaters. This deck relies on both cards to get the job done and works best with a balance of both of them. Also, the deck doesn't rely on one particular beater or hate bear more than another. Avenger is the best beater, but Wisp/Cloaker can swoop in when Avenger has been answered. Arbiter is a house, but Mangara tricks and Mindcensor offer even more utility. Sacrificing beaters to protect an Arbiter or Mangara doesn't seem ideal, to me at least. The fun comes from an opponent unsure whether to remove Avenger, or Mangara, or Arbiter, or Mindcensor, or Finks... and you knowing that whatever is removed will just be replaced with a creature as annoying as the other. I feel that the idea of "I need Spellskite to protect my primary win-con" is unfounded as the deck has no primary win-con, just a ton of creatures working together in unison with remarkable synergy.
Obviously this build is more built for the long game than white aggro, but I've had it come out of the gates taking out 2+ permanents per turn on turn four. Minamo is a MUST in all blue builds, the perfect compliment to Crystal Shard.
@daugarden: i'm really glad you are here, by the looks of it you seem to be a long term contributor to this primer. thanks very much!
@nwong: i know we have other fliers, it just doesn't seem like enough to provide a consistent flow of creatures, especially if your opponent packs heavy removal. i'm not heavily sided against you, and i know 'skite is good, but i think daugarden pretty much sums up my thoughts as well. DnT seems to want avenger more than it wants 'skite. it shall be added to the options section of the primer. also, as a side not, DnT does really "rely" on hatebears and mangara; while its a big part of the deck, many games are won without every seeing mangara or some of the other cards. as daugarden stated, DnT is awesome because it doesn't rely heavily on any one card; most hands are pretty good as long as you have an OK curve and land amount. thanks for keepin up the discussion though, and thanks for the suggestion! hope to see you on here a lot as well!
EDIT: i'm trying to improve the matchup section, but i haven't done a HUGE amount of testing post bannings. anyone care to put there thoughts on some of the matchups (doesn't need to be all that was there before, just whatever you've played against a few times; please don't give an opinion if you've only played one game or match against a deck; needs to be at least 2 matches)
The worst matchups seem to be aggro based, and the deck is not super easy to play for someone who has know idea about it. I think Zoo is the worst matchup, and 12Post is not an easy matchup but at the same time not a bad one. You just need to mulligan differently with them. I would recommend going to 4 arbiter maindeck as it makes ghost quarter into strip mines, and affects the elves, and 12post matchups dramatically in our favor. The deck is meant to be a midrange combo control deck. I agree that Avengers cannot be cut, but I would consider possibly adding mirran crusader in the board for the zoo matchup.
That is all I can say right now, I am somewhat impressed with nodes, and not sure about vat.
awesome! i'm so excited to have this go public, even if it's only a little. i feel it deserves to. unfortunately i can't watch, but i'm excited to hear the results. hope it does well!
@2nd post EDIT: alright, thanks for the feedback. i haven't played against zoo yet, but it used to be a pretty even matchup pre-bannings. i guess nodes will help. i also assumed it would be pretty good matchup as i killed jund every time i played it, so idk... also, i do run 4 arbiter MD, check the OP.
G2: I won by locking him down with arbiter, and finks with avenger and other fliers
G3: He was at 7 and top decked 2 burn spells to kill me which was not what I was expecting. I drew lands for several turns. (Me thinks that Kor Firewalker is going in the deck somewhere)
Round 2: UW Control
G1: He top decked
G2: He ripped and top decked while at 1
Results say this deck is awful atm