At a quick glance, you run 3 Slime, 2 Noxious Revival, 2 Visionary, 2 Witness, and 2 Titans. The Revivals should DEFINITELY be Witnesses; since you're all in on the Genesis Wave plan, you want to be able to buy back a Genesis Wave after you've cast it. As for the Slime, it's far worse than either a Visionary or a Titan and should be substituted for those. Personally, I'd go +1 Visionary and +2 Titan, but if budget is a concern then the other way around is acceptable.
You should run 4 Garruks. I think it has been long established that he's crucial to the deck and you should maximize your chances of playing him.
Rootbound Crag is completely acceptable here if you are willing to take the mulligan when it is the only land in your hand. Also keep in mind that, unlike Stomping Ground, you can't enchant it with Utopia Sprawl.
Everytime I see Vexing Shusher show up in a sideboard I see Admiral Akbar shouting "IT'S A TRAP". I write about it in the Primer, but here's what Michael Jacob wrote
A card commonly asked about mostly because no one has actually played with it. On paper it seems to add devotion and attack for two, but the reality is much different. What actually happens is that you would need to have an extra mana to "protect" your spell. The opponent can then respond with a removal spell targeting Vexing Shusher. Letting it resolve leaves your spell vulnerable to the very counterspells you wanted to protect from, and activating his ability in response just allows your opponent to respond to that with the counterspell. An all-around underpowered card, worse than Boseiju, Who Shelters All. I would much rather have an additional threat instead.
A few other oddballs I see in the sideboard that I would like to hear your thoughts on are Chalice, Golgari Charm, Leyline, Wrap in Vigor. I would like to understand what problems you're trying to solve. I can see an argument for Chalice but it could hamper your ability to do things. Golgari Charm, without the ability to naturally cast it, is dicey. I understand that you have Fertile Ground and Utopia Sprawl, but you'll put Utopia Sprawl on Green 98% of the time, so I have a hard time seeing it in there without something like Overgrown Tomb in there.
Finally, 22 lands might be a little much. I can see going to 21, but 20 is acceptable
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I will update my part about midrange version in some time, will let you know. I think current primer is little bit outdated, as I moved away from some choices (Cobra, Kotr, 3rd Resto angel), added Chord, Polukranos, Path to Exile etc
Still good work. I will try to record next time I would play this deck and post it on my Youtube channel.
Yeah, I saw the updates but wanted to put something in as a place holder for now.
Need to finish the one section, do more tags and that, and then we'll have a new thread!
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A few other oddballs I see in the sideboard that I would like to hear your thoughts on are Chalice, Golgari Charm, Leyline, Wrap in Vigor. I would like to understand what problems you're trying to solve. I can see an argument for Chalice but it could hamper your ability to do things.
Just to answer your thoughts on the sideboard. Golgari Charm and Wrap in Vigor are both just designed to regenerate my dorks, though Charm has the added utility of ending enchantments as well. As for Chalice of the Void, that's just my way of handling Affinity; cast it for 0 and hopefully slow down most of their deck. Leylines are for the matchup with Thoughtseize, since I've learned that hand disruption is pretty annoying (at least for me), and also most combo such as Ad Nauseam, and Storm, target the player. Do you think in place of the Shushers, I should maybe run more Choke, and maybe a Blood Moon in the side?
I just have a few questions as I'm tweaking the board. What are your thoughts on Courser of Kruphix? And what about Carven Caryatid in place of Visionary?
Also, if I were to take out Slime, how would I deal with annoying things such as Platinum Angel, and Celestial Colonnade?
I really wanna make this deck hit its threats and Gen Waves a lot more consistently, so all help is super appreciated.
Yeah, I saw the updates but wanted to put something in as a place holder for now.
Need to finish the one section, do more tags and that, and then we'll have a new thread!
I dont think making new Thread is good idea. More pages = more prestigue
I don't think there's any way to change the primer without a new thread. Plus, the primer will hopefully be somewhat of a summation of all the information gleaned and discussion had so far.
Yeah, MTGS is trying to do a cleanup of this section, so new threads are required. As per the mods
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Just to answer your thoughts on the sideboard. Golgari Charm and Wrap in Vigor are both just designed to regenerate my dorks, though Charm has the added utility of ending enchantments as well. As for Chalice of the Void, that's just my way of handling Affinity; cast it for 0 and hopefully slow down most of their deck. Leylines are for the matchup with Thoughtseize, since I've learned that hand disruption is pretty annoying (at least for me), and also most combo such as Ad Nauseam, and Storm, target the player. Do you think in place of the Shushers, I should maybe run more Choke, and maybe a Blood Moon in the side?
Storm typically brings in Empty the Warrens out of the sideboard, so a Leyline won't save you there (I played Storm for a bit, and played it at GP Detroit, so I'm familiar with the sideboard plan). I like the idea for Chalice vs Affinity, although you're better off putting it on 2 so you catch Vault Skirge, Cranial Plating, Arcbound Ravager, and Steel Overseer. Putting it at 2 nerfs your Visionaries, Geists, and BTEs. Thoughtseize shouldn't be too big of a worry since you do run Eternal Witness, so bumping that count up might be a better idea.
As for Vexing Shusher replacements, there are several. Boseiju (which you have in the main) and Defense Grid are the two that immediately pop into my head. Blood Moon is a definite NO...why would you bring in something that nerfs your Nykthos?
I just have a few questions as I'm tweaking the board. What are your thoughts on Courser of Kruphix? And what about Carven Caryatid in place of Visionary?
Also, if I were to take out Slime, how would I deal with annoying things such as Platinum Angel, and Celestial Colonnade?
I really wanna make this deck hit its threats and Gen Waves a lot more consistently, so all help is super appreciated.
I like the idea of Courser, in theory. My current list has him in over Strangleroot Geist. As for Carven Caryatid, the three drop slot is pretty loaded at the moment, with Courser, Selkie, and Witness, and Caryatid is worse than those three. If you want Visionary, then keep it as Visionary
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When I first put the pictures up I didn't realize how big they would be in the thread. I thought I could resize them through tags, but apparently not. I could always resize and repost, but I'm trying to get a proper banner done by a buddy of mine
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Alright, I've updated the DL, and it performs a bit more consistently online now, but I'm going to proxy is up and try it in a gauntlet at my LGS against Twin, Pod, Affinity, America, RDW, Esper, my Mono-U Tron deck, and Turbo Mill.
Any last thoughts on the list?
Also, I'm deciding to keep the leylines in for now until I can find something nicer.
I still just don't know how I would deal with annoying non-creature permanents such as Platinum Angel, Pithing Needle, naming Nykthos, or something else that would slow me down enough to let the other guy win.
Pithing Needle cant name Nykthos. Or maybe it can name Nykthos, however it isnt doing anything...
I would play Abundant Growth over Elvish Visionary anytime I am not playing Restoration Angel. There is no point of playing visionary.
If you have access to green fetchlands play them. I think it should be pointed out gnuhouse somewhere in a primer, even if you arent playing them currently please put deck with them. They make eternal witness much better.
If you want non-stomping ground green source (I think you should play at least 14 forest sources for arbor elf / utopia sprawl) play Copperline Gorge.
Also would you play Damping Matrix over Stony Silence if you have white sources in a deck?
Stony silence is cheaper and it hoses mana abilities - so it works vs mox opal, darksteel citadel, springleaf drums, chromatic star/sphere, lotus blooms and pendant prisms.
Damping Matrix turns of our arbor elf and birds of paradase, however it works similar to Linvala, Keeper of Silence - it hoses twin and pod.
What are your opinions on Aven Mindcensor in Primal Command Version? Additional hatebear vs Scapeshift, Tron and Pod. I am thinking about playing him over 1 Plow Under? Thoughts?
If you have access to green fetchlands play them. I think it should be pointed out gnuhouse somewhere in a primer, even if you arent playing them currently please put deck with them. They make eternal witness much better.
Made that change in the primer. Good point
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As I said I will point some things out. Just sharing my experiences.
4 Arbor Elf
4 Utopia Sprawl
These two, in conjunction, are the beginnings of the engine of the deck. This little combo will allow you to do things like power out a turn two Garruk Wildspeaker, or turn three Primeval Titan.
I think somewhere in the Primer you should have pointed out the bustest draw possible. In Genesis Wave version (I think it should be called as Combo/Value deck, as the Primal Command is more of the Value/Combo deck) it is: Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl, Forest, Nykthos, Garruk, Burning-Tree Emissary, either Primeval Titan or Primal Command your 1st land. Midrange version cant have this kind of draw as it doesnt play Burning-Tree Emissary, however it has more consistent non-perfect draws (from my experience). I think it should be pointed out somewhere - probably in "What version should I play section" describing differences.
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
The original Garruk plays a dual role here. For starters, his +1 ability allows you to untap two lands. Any two lands. With lands like Nykthos or enchanted Forests, the ability to use them twice in one turn opens up many possibilities for abuse. Further, his -4 is not only achievable but can act as a win condition on its own if you have a large board presence.
You shouldnt disregard -1 option of making Beast Tokens, as 3/3 body is quite big for modern (it however dies to every removal possible). As a part of strategy you should know what you want to do with Garruk. Vs Lightning Bolt decks most of the time you want to +1 him. Vs BG Rock most of the time you also want to +1 him, even if you have other blockers and they only have bob/treetop. Garruk is one of the best cards vs BG Rock, you want to protect him, however BG easily can kill 2 blockers with decay/pact and swing with BoB, or animate treetop, pact and swing with 2. I also have used Garruk multiple time as a Ritual (when you have more than 4 devotion,nykthos and utopia sprawl, or more than 5 devotion and nykthos) or as multiple beast per one turn. This is a card that you cant flood with, however it is really hard to play with it optimaly.
2-4 Primeval Titan
Ah, the big daddy, Prime Time. If you played Standard anytime between 2010 and 2012, you know just how good Primeval Titan is. Not only is he a 6/6 trampler for 6 mana (which is very easy to hit in this deck), but he tutors up two lands when he comes into play or attacks. Given how key Nykthos is to the deck, his tutor ability is vital.
I think you should point somewhere, that if your life doesnt matter that much, you should tutor for fetchland over basic/shockland and then crack them at upkeep. It allows you to filter more lands from your deck. It also have additional advantage if you have Courser of Krupnix - you then have an option to reset your top card in a library at upkeep, or reset a top card if you are searching for land.
2 Stomping Ground
If you have fetchlands I dont see a point of playing 2 stomping grounds if you dont use any other red cards anywhere in the deck. In version without fetchlands I would probably play ~4.
I think in flex slots you should put information, that Elvish Visionary isnt that good and if you want additional card draw (that isnt Wistful Selkie) you should probably play Abundant Growth. MJ in his article described it the best.
Birds of Paradise – A classic, provides you with red mana for Kessig Wolf Run, or to cast potential sideboard cards. Another Bolt target and doesn’t provide you with the same value as an Arbor Elf can
Very important part of Birds of Paradise is obvious, but not talked here - the fact that it flies. In a lot of situations on a stale board you can attack with birds, pump them with nykthos and in case of removal not be dead on swingback. With ground assault, it isnt that easy as generaly speaking there is more toughtness involved.
BG Sideboard
Good cards – Primal Command, Garruk, Primal Hunter, Obstinate Baloth, Harmonize, Kitchen Finks, Strangleroot Geist, Beast Within
Bad Cards – Joraga Treespeaker, Scavenging Ooze, Birds of Paradise, Burning-Tree Emissary
They’ll likely bring in – Fulminator Mage, Slaughter Games, Graffdigger’s Cage, Rakdos Charm, Engineered Explosives, Olivia Voldaren, Sowing Salt, Drown in Sorrow, Disfigure
I dissagre with a fact that Kitchen Finks and Strangleroot Geists are good. They are eaten by Scavenging ooze when in graveyard, and not touched before that. Beast Within isnt also perfect as a removal, as it gives them value. Best cards vs them is Eternal Witness / Wistful Selkie / small Garruk.
I also dissagre that Scavenging Ooze is bad vs them. It is card I am even sideboarding vs them. It works vs their Tarmogoyf, vs Darkblast (our decks hoser), Lingering Souls. It is also huge beater. Birds of Paradise are bad, however you still need ~10 accelerators?
Remember when you are cutting Mana Dorks bring additional lands in Ghost Quarters if you have them. They works both early and later (mana if dork is killed, removal vs manlands later)
They probably dont board Slaughter Games, Rakdos Charm or Graffsdigger's Cage if they know how our deck plays out, as those cards are really narrow.
While Genesis Wave is good vs them, I would probably not keep all 4, as realisticly speaking matchup is really grindy and your whole hand would be discarded / killed on first few turns. What you hate is them killing / taking all accelerators and having dead cards in hand. Remember Waving for 4 is the minimum number that is good in this version (not hitting Titans). I would probably also sideboard Craterhoof vs them.
Twin
Good cards – Boseiju, Who Shelters All, Primal Command, Plow Under, Spellskite, Dismember, Combust, Damping Matrix, Thrun, the Last Troll, Defense Grid, Beast Within, Summoning Trap, Cavern of Souls
I dissagre with Plow Under or Primal Command being awsome vs them to distrupt their combo. You cant realisticly race Twin, it is just to fast and have distruption that hurts us (both removal and counterspells). I would concentrate on having god removal suite and try distrupt the combo (idealy 2 for 1 them) and then primal commanding them to lock the game this way.
Thrun isnt as good as it seams vs this deck (similar to vs Scapeshift or UWR) as it is just too slow. Defense Grid isnt also interacting with their combo.
In other SB guides I dissagree about the fact that Genesis Wave is better than Primal Command. When opponent is having counterspells, removals or is comboing of very fast Command is better than Wave because it is cheaper.
Also would you play Damping Matrix over Stony Silence if you have white sources in a deck?
Stony silence is cheaper and it hoses mana abilities - so it works vs mox opal, darksteel citadel, springleaf drums, chromatic star/sphere, lotus blooms and pendant prisms.
Damping Matrix turns of our arbor elf and birds of paradase, however it works similar to Linvala, Keeper of Silence - it hoses twin and pod.
What are your opinions on Aven Mindcensor in Primal Command Version? Additional hatebear vs Scapeshift, Tron and Pod. I am thinking about playing him over 1 Plow Under? Thoughts?
Damping Matrix vs Stony Silence
I guess this comes down to preference, meta, and build. If you run more mana dorks than just the Arbor Elves, have a meta full of little metal guys donning plates on their skulls, and don't have a ton of Twin or Pod in your meta, then Stony Silence is good. Otherwise, I would probably run Damping Matrix.
In your version, pedros, I would definitely run Stony Silence. With a greater reliance on non-Arbor Elves and KotR (I think you still use her), Damping Matrix is a non-bo. In Genesis Wave builds, I would run Damping Matrix over Stony Silence since it has a great effect vs your opponent than it does yourself.
Aven Mindcensor is a good addition, I like it so give it a shot
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Also would you play Damping Matrix over Stony Silence if you have white sources in a deck?
Stony silence is cheaper and it hoses mana abilities - so it works vs mox opal, darksteel citadel, springleaf drums, chromatic star/sphere, lotus blooms and pendant prisms.
Damping Matrix turns of our arbor elf and birds of paradase, however it works similar to Linvala, Keeper of Silence - it hoses twin and pod.
What are your opinions on Aven Mindcensor in Primal Command Version? Additional hatebear vs Scapeshift, Tron and Pod. I am thinking about playing him over 1 Plow Under? Thoughts?
Damping Matrix vs Stony Silence
I guess this comes down to preference, meta, and build. If you run more mana dorks than just the Arbor Elves, have a meta full of little metal guys donning plates on their skulls, and don't have a ton of Twin or Pod in your meta, then Stony Silence is good. Otherwise, I would probably run Damping Matrix.
In your version, pedros, I would definitely run Stony Silence. With a greater reliance on non-Arbor Elves and KotR (I think you still use her), Damping Matrix is a non-bo. In Genesis Wave builds, I would run Damping Matrix over Stony Silence since it has a great effect vs your opponent than it does yourself.
Aven Mindcensor is a good addition, I like it so give it a shot
I dont use KoTR as I found Couser to be better Currently. Why?
1st) I dont want to fetch for Temple Garden most of the time on turn 1.
2nd) Kotr dies to bolt in my current build ;/ I think you need to run ~8 fetches to make it 4/4 on turn 2 with dork.
I played my 4rd daily with the same build (not same, small change of mindcensor over plow under in sb) and did 3-1.
2-1 vs UW Tron
0-2 vs Tribal Zoo (I played horibly g2, you will see)
2-1 vs UR Delver (didnt sb game 2 as I hand mtgo beta error)
2-1 vs BW PackRats
I will try to record replays with comments (I dont like to record while playing as with his deck you need to concentrate on math a lot) and link them here when ready. Still managing my "Cash out every event I played except of PTQ status".
As I said I will point some things out. Just sharing my experiences.
I think somewhere in the Primer you should have pointed out the bustest draw possible. In Genesis Wave version (I think it should be called as Combo/Value deck, as the Primal Command is more of the Value/Combo deck) it is: Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl, Forest, Nykthos, Garruk, Burning-Tree Emissary, either Primeval Titan or Primal Command your 1st land. Midrange version cant have this kind of draw as it doesnt play Burning-Tree Emissary, however it has more consistent non-perfect draws (from my experience). I think it should be pointed out somewhere - probably in "What version should I play section" describing differences.
Good idea. I'll include the nut draw for the Genesis Wave version
You shouldnt disregard -1 option of making Beast Tokens, as 3/3 body is quite big for modern (it however dies to every removal possible). As a part of strategy you should know what you want to do with Garruk. Vs Lightning Bolt decks most of the time you want to +1 him. Vs BG Rock most of the time you also want to +1 him, even if you have other blockers and they only have bob/treetop. Garruk is one of the best cards vs BG Rock, you want to protect him, however BG easily can kill 2 blockers with decay/pact and swing with BoB, or animate treetop, pact and swing with 2. I also have used Garruk multiple time as a Ritual (when you have more than 4 devotion,nykthos and utopia sprawl, or more than 5 devotion and nykthos) or as multiple beast per one turn. This is a card that you cant flood with, however it is really hard to play with it optimally.
I like this discussion. I think I just might CnP this into the primer someplace. Not sure where yet, but I'll put it in.
I think you should point somewhere, that if your life doesnt matter that much, you should tutor for fetchland over basic/shockland and then crack them at upkeep. It allows you to filter more lands from your deck. It also have additional advantage if you have Courser of Krupnix - you then have an option to reset your top card in a library at upkeep, or reset a top card if you are searching for land.
Yeah, I think that I need something on a hierarchy of lands to fetch with Primeval Titan
If you have fetchlands I dont see a point of playing 2 stomping grounds if you dont use any other red cards anywhere in the deck. In version without fetchlands I would probably play ~4.
I think in flex slots you should put information, that Elvish Visionary isnt that good and if you want additional card draw (that isnt Wistful Selkie) you should probably play Abundant Growth. MJ in his article described it the best.
I'm wondering if mana/land base needs a separate section. I realize it's a very simplistic mana/land base, but I think that discussions around inclusion of non-basic lands might warrant some discussion
As for Visionary vs Abundant Growth, I'll have to revisit the MJ article on that
Very important part of Birds of Paradise is obvious, but not talked here - the fact that it flies. In a lot of situations on a stale board you can attack with birds, pump them with nykthos and in case of removal not be dead on swingback. With ground assault, it isnt that easy as generaly speaking there is more toughtness involved.
Probably something for play notes
I dissagre with a fact that Kitchen Finks and Strangleroot Geists are good. They are eaten by Scavenging ooze when in graveyard, and not touched before that. Beast Within isnt also perfect as a removal, as it gives them value. Best cards vs them is Eternal Witness / Wistful Selkie / small Garruk.
I also dissagre that Scavenging Ooze is bad vs them. It is card I am even sideboarding vs them. It works vs their Tarmogoyf, vs Darkblast (our decks hoser), Lingering Souls. It is also huge beater. Birds of Paradise are bad, however you still need ~10 accelerators?
Remember when you are cutting Mana Dorks bring additional lands in Ghost Quarters if you have them. They works both early and later (mana if dork is killed, removal vs manlands later)
They probably dont board Slaughter Games, Rakdos Charm or Graffsdigger's Cage if they know how our deck plays out, as those cards are really narrow.
While Genesis Wave is good vs them, I would probably not keep all 4, as realisticly speaking matchup is really grindy and your whole hand would be discarded / killed on first few turns. What you hate is them killing / taking all accelerators and having dead cards in hand. Remember Waving for 4 is the minimum number that is good in this version (not hitting Titans). I would probably also sideboard Craterhoof vs them.
I've played with Geists and Finks main vs Jund decks and they've always proven to be extremely valuable, even with cards like Deathrite and Ooze in the format. The point you make is valid, but from my field reports they're fairly decent.
Fair point about cards not being sided in, I just listed a variety of options that a Jund/Junk player has. I have had Grafdigger's Cage played against me as it does shut off the Primal Command loop, Genesis Wave, Tooth and Nail, and Summoner's Pact.
Point about Wave is valid and I'll probably include that.
I dissagre with Plow Under or Primal Command being awsome vs them to distrupt their combo. You cant realisticly race Twin, it is just to fast and have distruption that hurts us (both removal and counterspells). I would concentrate on having god removal suite and try distrupt the combo (idealy 2 for 1 them) and then primal commanding them to lock the game this way.
Thrun isnt as good as it seams vs this deck (similar to vs Scapeshift or UWR) as it is just too slow. Defense Grid isnt also interacting with their combo.
In other SB guides I dissagree about the fact that Genesis Wave is better than Primal Command. When opponent is having counterspells, removals or is comboing of very fast Command is better than Wave because it is cheaper.
Defense Grid isn't used to interact with the combo, it's used to slow it down long enough for us to get ours going.
Going back and giving this some more thought, I think there needs to be a discussion of not just when to Wave but when to Wave vs when to Command. It's a very valid and acceptable line of play at times, so I think it needs it's own discussion.
Yay, more primer work for me!
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What might be useful, if you want to record, is to play without recording, then grab a replay and walk through the match after its done. It allows you to speed through some parts of the game, but also to stop it and discuss some things.
I might rebuild the Genesis Wave version of the deck online and do the same. I cashed out of my collection a few weeks ago, so I might buy back in depending on how the beta switch over goes
EDIT and I just noticed you said that you were going to do EXACTLY what I suggested. Been a long day
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Added a section for "The Nut Draw" for the Genesis Wave version. There is a Turn 2 and Turn 3 nut draw, but if someone could check my work I'd appreciate it
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At a quick glance, you run 3 Slime, 2 Noxious Revival, 2 Visionary, 2 Witness, and 2 Titans. The Revivals should DEFINITELY be Witnesses; since you're all in on the Genesis Wave plan, you want to be able to buy back a Genesis Wave after you've cast it. As for the Slime, it's far worse than either a Visionary or a Titan and should be substituted for those. Personally, I'd go +1 Visionary and +2 Titan, but if budget is a concern then the other way around is acceptable.
You should run 4 Garruks. I think it has been long established that he's crucial to the deck and you should maximize your chances of playing him.
Rootbound Crag is completely acceptable here if you are willing to take the mulligan when it is the only land in your hand. Also keep in mind that, unlike Stomping Ground, you can't enchant it with Utopia Sprawl.
Everytime I see Vexing Shusher show up in a sideboard I see Admiral Akbar shouting "IT'S A TRAP". I write about it in the Primer, but here's what Michael Jacob wrote
A few other oddballs I see in the sideboard that I would like to hear your thoughts on are Chalice, Golgari Charm, Leyline, Wrap in Vigor. I would like to understand what problems you're trying to solve. I can see an argument for Chalice but it could hamper your ability to do things. Golgari Charm, without the ability to naturally cast it, is dicey. I understand that you have Fertile Ground and Utopia Sprawl, but you'll put Utopia Sprawl on Green 98% of the time, so I have a hard time seeing it in there without something like Overgrown Tomb in there.
Finally, 22 lands might be a little much. I can see going to 21, but 20 is acceptable
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Still good work. I will try to record next time I would play this deck and post it on my Youtube channel.
Need to finish the one section, do more tags and that, and then we'll have a new thread!
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I dont think making new Thread is good idea. More pages = more prestigue
Just to answer your thoughts on the sideboard. Golgari Charm and Wrap in Vigor are both just designed to regenerate my dorks, though Charm has the added utility of ending enchantments as well. As for Chalice of the Void, that's just my way of handling Affinity; cast it for 0 and hopefully slow down most of their deck. Leylines are for the matchup with Thoughtseize, since I've learned that hand disruption is pretty annoying (at least for me), and also most combo such as Ad Nauseam, and Storm, target the player. Do you think in place of the Shushers, I should maybe run more Choke, and maybe a Blood Moon in the side?
I just have a few questions as I'm tweaking the board. What are your thoughts on Courser of Kruphix? And what about Carven Caryatid in place of Visionary?
Also, if I were to take out Slime, how would I deal with annoying things such as Platinum Angel, and Celestial Colonnade?
I really wanna make this deck hit its threats and Gen Waves a lot more consistently, so all help is super appreciated.
Modern: RG Tron GRX, Mono-Green Devotion G, (Tentatively) Dredgevine BUG
EDH: Mayael's RGW, Sidisi BUG
I guess I like Green, or something. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
L1 Judge
I don't think there's any way to change the primer without a new thread. Plus, the primer will hopefully be somewhat of a summation of all the information gleaned and discussion had so far.
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Currently playing:
Standard BUG Control
Modern :UAffinity, GNyxWave
Legacy UBTezzAffinity
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Storm typically brings in Empty the Warrens out of the sideboard, so a Leyline won't save you there (I played Storm for a bit, and played it at GP Detroit, so I'm familiar with the sideboard plan). I like the idea for Chalice vs Affinity, although you're better off putting it on 2 so you catch Vault Skirge, Cranial Plating, Arcbound Ravager, and Steel Overseer. Putting it at 2 nerfs your Visionaries, Geists, and BTEs. Thoughtseize shouldn't be too big of a worry since you do run Eternal Witness, so bumping that count up might be a better idea.
As for Vexing Shusher replacements, there are several. Boseiju (which you have in the main) and Defense Grid are the two that immediately pop into my head. Blood Moon is a definite NO...why would you bring in something that nerfs your Nykthos?
I like the idea of Courser, in theory. My current list has him in over Strangleroot Geist. As for Carven Caryatid, the three drop slot is pretty loaded at the moment, with Courser, Selkie, and Witness, and Caryatid is worse than those three. If you want Visionary, then keep it as Visionary
Check out my blog and help me improve my game
Currently playing:
Standard BUG Control
Modern :UAffinity, GNyxWave
Legacy UBTezzAffinity
My Cube
Check out my blog and help me improve my game
Currently playing:
Standard BUG Control
Modern :UAffinity, GNyxWave
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My Cube
Any last thoughts on the list?
Also, I'm deciding to keep the leylines in for now until I can find something nicer.
I still just don't know how I would deal with annoying non-creature permanents such as Platinum Angel, Pithing Needle, naming Nykthos, or something else that would slow me down enough to let the other guy win.
4x Arbor Elf
4x Burning-Tree Emissary
2x Courser of Kruphix
1x Craterhoof Behemoth
3x Elvish Visionary
4x Eternal Witness
4x Primeval Titan
3x Strangleroot Geist
1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
13x Forest
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Rootbound Crag
1x Kessig Wolf Run
Enchantment (7)
3x Fertile Ground
4x Utopia Sprawl
Sorcery (4)
4x Genesis Wave
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
3x Chalice of the Void
2x Choke
2x Damping Matrix
2x Defense Grid
2x Fracturing Gust
4x Leyline of Sanctity
Modern: RG Tron GRX, Mono-Green Devotion G, (Tentatively) Dredgevine BUG
EDH: Mayael's RGW, Sidisi BUG
I guess I like Green, or something. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
L1 Judge
Decks:
Standard:
Nope
Modern:
Mono-Green Nykthos
Gifts Tron
Melira Pod
Legacy:
Maverick (retired)
I would play Abundant Growth over Elvish Visionary anytime I am not playing Restoration Angel. There is no point of playing visionary.
If you have access to green fetchlands play them. I think it should be pointed out gnuhouse somewhere in a primer, even if you arent playing them currently please put deck with them. They make eternal witness much better.
If you want non-stomping ground green source (I think you should play at least 14 forest sources for arbor elf / utopia sprawl) play Copperline Gorge.
Stony silence is cheaper and it hoses mana abilities - so it works vs mox opal, darksteel citadel, springleaf drums, chromatic star/sphere, lotus blooms and pendant prisms.
Damping Matrix turns of our arbor elf and birds of paradase, however it works similar to Linvala, Keeper of Silence - it hoses twin and pod.
What are your opinions on Aven Mindcensor in Primal Command Version? Additional hatebear vs Scapeshift, Tron and Pod. I am thinking about playing him over 1 Plow Under? Thoughts?
Made that change in the primer. Good point
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Currently playing:
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As I said I will point some things out. Just sharing my experiences.
I think somewhere in the Primer you should have pointed out the bustest draw possible. In Genesis Wave version (I think it should be called as Combo/Value deck, as the Primal Command is more of the Value/Combo deck) it is: Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl, Forest, Nykthos, Garruk, Burning-Tree Emissary, either Primeval Titan or Primal Command your 1st land. Midrange version cant have this kind of draw as it doesnt play Burning-Tree Emissary, however it has more consistent non-perfect draws (from my experience). I think it should be pointed out somewhere - probably in "What version should I play section" describing differences.
You shouldnt disregard -1 option of making Beast Tokens, as 3/3 body is quite big for modern (it however dies to every removal possible). As a part of strategy you should know what you want to do with Garruk. Vs Lightning Bolt decks most of the time you want to +1 him. Vs BG Rock most of the time you also want to +1 him, even if you have other blockers and they only have bob/treetop. Garruk is one of the best cards vs BG Rock, you want to protect him, however BG easily can kill 2 blockers with decay/pact and swing with BoB, or animate treetop, pact and swing with 2. I also have used Garruk multiple time as a Ritual (when you have more than 4 devotion,nykthos and utopia sprawl, or more than 5 devotion and nykthos) or as multiple beast per one turn. This is a card that you cant flood with, however it is really hard to play with it optimaly.
I think you should point somewhere, that if your life doesnt matter that much, you should tutor for fetchland over basic/shockland and then crack them at upkeep. It allows you to filter more lands from your deck. It also have additional advantage if you have Courser of Krupnix - you then have an option to reset your top card in a library at upkeep, or reset a top card if you are searching for land.
If you have fetchlands I dont see a point of playing 2 stomping grounds if you dont use any other red cards anywhere in the deck. In version without fetchlands I would probably play ~4.
I think in flex slots you should put information, that Elvish Visionary isnt that good and if you want additional card draw (that isnt Wistful Selkie) you should probably play Abundant Growth. MJ in his article described it the best.
Very important part of Birds of Paradise is obvious, but not talked here - the fact that it flies. In a lot of situations on a stale board you can attack with birds, pump them with nykthos and in case of removal not be dead on swingback. With ground assault, it isnt that easy as generaly speaking there is more toughtness involved.
I dissagre with a fact that Kitchen Finks and Strangleroot Geists are good. They are eaten by Scavenging ooze when in graveyard, and not touched before that. Beast Within isnt also perfect as a removal, as it gives them value. Best cards vs them is Eternal Witness / Wistful Selkie / small Garruk.
I also dissagre that Scavenging Ooze is bad vs them. It is card I am even sideboarding vs them. It works vs their Tarmogoyf, vs Darkblast (our decks hoser), Lingering Souls. It is also huge beater. Birds of Paradise are bad, however you still need ~10 accelerators?
Remember when you are cutting Mana Dorks bring additional lands in Ghost Quarters if you have them. They works both early and later (mana if dork is killed, removal vs manlands later)
They probably dont board Slaughter Games, Rakdos Charm or Graffsdigger's Cage if they know how our deck plays out, as those cards are really narrow.
While Genesis Wave is good vs them, I would probably not keep all 4, as realisticly speaking matchup is really grindy and your whole hand would be discarded / killed on first few turns. What you hate is them killing / taking all accelerators and having dead cards in hand. Remember Waving for 4 is the minimum number that is good in this version (not hitting Titans). I would probably also sideboard Craterhoof vs them.
I dissagre with Plow Under or Primal Command being awsome vs them to distrupt their combo. You cant realisticly race Twin, it is just to fast and have distruption that hurts us (both removal and counterspells). I would concentrate on having god removal suite and try distrupt the combo (idealy 2 for 1 them) and then primal commanding them to lock the game this way.
Thrun isnt as good as it seams vs this deck (similar to vs Scapeshift or UWR) as it is just too slow. Defense Grid isnt also interacting with their combo.
In other SB guides I dissagree about the fact that Genesis Wave is better than Primal Command. When opponent is having counterspells, removals or is comboing of very fast Command is better than Wave because it is cheaper.
Damping Matrix vs Stony Silence
I guess this comes down to preference, meta, and build. If you run more mana dorks than just the Arbor Elves, have a meta full of little metal guys donning plates on their skulls, and don't have a ton of Twin or Pod in your meta, then Stony Silence is good. Otherwise, I would probably run Damping Matrix.
In your version, pedros, I would definitely run Stony Silence. With a greater reliance on non-Arbor Elves and KotR (I think you still use her), Damping Matrix is a non-bo. In Genesis Wave builds, I would run Damping Matrix over Stony Silence since it has a great effect vs your opponent than it does yourself.
Aven Mindcensor is a good addition, I like it so give it a shot
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I dont use KoTR as I found Couser to be better Currently. Why?
1st) I dont want to fetch for Temple Garden most of the time on turn 1.
2nd) Kotr dies to bolt in my current build ;/ I think you need to run ~8 fetches to make it 4/4 on turn 2 with dork.
I played my 4rd daily with the same build (not same, small change of mindcensor over plow under in sb) and did 3-1.
2-1 vs UW Tron
0-2 vs Tribal Zoo (I played horibly g2, you will see)
2-1 vs UR Delver (didnt sb game 2 as I hand mtgo beta error)
2-1 vs BW PackRats
I will try to record replays with comments (I dont like to record while playing as with his deck you need to concentrate on math a lot) and link them here when ready. Still managing my "Cash out every event I played except of PTQ status".
Good idea. I'll include the nut draw for the Genesis Wave version
I like this discussion. I think I just might CnP this into the primer someplace. Not sure where yet, but I'll put it in.
Yeah, I think that I need something on a hierarchy of lands to fetch with Primeval Titan
I'm wondering if mana/land base needs a separate section. I realize it's a very simplistic mana/land base, but I think that discussions around inclusion of non-basic lands might warrant some discussion
As for Visionary vs Abundant Growth, I'll have to revisit the MJ article on that
Probably something for play notes
I've played with Geists and Finks main vs Jund decks and they've always proven to be extremely valuable, even with cards like Deathrite and Ooze in the format. The point you make is valid, but from my field reports they're fairly decent.
Fair point about cards not being sided in, I just listed a variety of options that a Jund/Junk player has. I have had Grafdigger's Cage played against me as it does shut off the Primal Command loop, Genesis Wave, Tooth and Nail, and Summoner's Pact.
Point about Wave is valid and I'll probably include that.
Defense Grid isn't used to interact with the combo, it's used to slow it down long enough for us to get ours going.
Going back and giving this some more thought, I think there needs to be a discussion of not just when to Wave but when to Wave vs when to Command. It's a very valid and acceptable line of play at times, so I think it needs it's own discussion.
Yay, more primer work for me!
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Currently playing:
Standard BUG Control
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I might rebuild the Genesis Wave version of the deck online and do the same. I cashed out of my collection a few weeks ago, so I might buy back in depending on how the beta switch over goes
EDIT and I just noticed you said that you were going to do EXACTLY what I suggested. Been a long day
Check out my blog and help me improve my game
Currently playing:
Standard BUG Control
Modern :UAffinity, GNyxWave
Legacy UBTezzAffinity
My Cube
Check out my blog and help me improve my game
Currently playing:
Standard BUG Control
Modern :UAffinity, GNyxWave
Legacy UBTezzAffinity
My Cube