I've tinkered around with the trinket mage combo on MTGworkstation and just me personally, I don't think I'm crazy about it. It did help me out against infinity when i laid down pithing needle but that's because I drew into it. I hardly got my trinkets and never really needed to search except for once but I'm not here to knock it, just not my preference. I could see myself switching to it if my meta switches up and it calls for more hate that the trinket package brings but other then that, it's not my style of play.
Edit: How about jace's ingenuity over thoughtflare? -1 draw but no discard for the same mana and instant speed..?
Ingenuity is great. You really can't go wrong with either. I personally like Thoughtflare since you dig deeper, which is extremely helpful when you're trying to find 1 of 2 Cruel Ultimatums, and you really want to be able to hit it consistently every game. It also has some small synergy with Snapcaster Mage and Cruel Ultimatum.
The drawback over ingenuity of course, is that Ingenuity draws you 1 more card. Both have advantages and weaknesses, but I like the filtering and digging aspect of Thoughtflare slightly more.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find me online - I'm on Cockatrice * Tag - Badd B - Or on MTGO - Tag - Cbus05
Ingenuity is great. You really can't go wrong with either. I personally like Thoughtflare since you dig deeper, which is extremely helpful when you're trying to find 1 of 2 Cruel Ultimatums, and you really want to be able to hit it consistently every game. It also has some small synergy with Snapcaster Mage and Cruel Ultimatum.
The drawback over ingenuity of course, is that Ingenuity draws you 1 more card. Both have advantages and weaknesses, but I like the filtering and digging aspect of Thoughtflare slightly more.
Opportunity is getting a reprint in m14. Would that be better than either Jace's or Thoughtflare?
Opportunity is getting a reprint in m14. Would that be better than either Jace's or Thoughtflare?
if i were to pick between thoughtflare or opportunity I'd go with thoughtflare since it's a turn sooner for the same amount of draw. Same draw engine but it comes down to speed really. You could test it out but I think I'd prefer thoughtflare or jace's over opportunity.
It can be pretty competitive if built properly. It takes some practice and skill to play, especially in a diverse format like modern. The card advantage, disruption, and removal is second to none in the modern format. I would start with the most current list provided in the OP by MagicMan and go from there.
The drawbacks? Tron is still difficult to deal with, but it IS winnable (just not favorable). RDW and Burn based decks can be problematic since g1 you don't realistically have any life-gain until turn 7, and game 2 & 3, you can (will) get blown out by Blood Moon pretty easily. Affinity can also do a bloodmoon blow out (although dealing with their creatures isn't that difficult).
Dealing with resolved planeswalkers or birthing pods can also be annoying, especially if you aren't playing trinket mage / pithing needle maindeck. A resolved Liliana of the Veil or Ajani Vengeant is difficult to deal with when you don't have tons of creatures to attack them with. It's certainly manageable, but it's definitely an "annoyance" more than anything else.
Most other matchups are pretty "even". One strength of this deck is it's ability to deal with hexproof creatures that otherwise cause problems, namely Geist of Saint Traft via Devour Flesh (or Damnation).
Woot - this got into the dailies. I don't really think everything is optimal (maindeck duress seems strange), but it looks cool overall. Far / Away is a cool idea, and I'm always a fan of Venser, Shaper Savant in decks.
What are peoples thoughts on KaiserMagus's 3 Grafdigger Cage in the sideboard? is it worth weakening Snappy, which in my opinion is one of the key parts of the deck?
What are peoples thoughts on KaiserMagus's 3 Grafdigger Cage in the sideboard? is it worth weakening Snappy, which in my opinion is one of the key parts of the deck?
I don't see how it's better than relic outside of the birthing pod matchup. With that said, against birthing pod, it's really good.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find me online - I'm on Cockatrice * Tag - Badd B - Or on MTGO - Tag - Cbus05
So with the massive rising of Birthing Pod decks do you think it'd be justified enough to play over relic? I'm guessing it would for sure in trinket builds because its only 1 slot but what in regular Grixis decks?
personally if i'd been in a heavy pod meta i'd maindeck 1rakdos charm it's the swiss knife against pod , can break pod , exile grave and if the player puts enough tokens you can kill with , also fetchable with mystical teachings
I see all the decklists posted, and I was wondering how can this deck deal with urzatron? when they have the 2 lands, expedintion map and they are on the play it seems unwinnable for the this deck, as Sowing Salt and Shadow of Doubt are a turn too late.
Btw, what are the cards to bring in and side out in this matchup? I guess discard and counters are decent, but what else?
I see all the decklists posted, and I was wondering how can this deck deal with urzatron? when they have the 2 lands, expedintion map and they are on the play it seems unwinnable for the this deck, as Sowing Salt and Shadow of Doubt are a turn too late.
Btw, what are the cards to bring in and side out in this matchup? I guess discard and counters are decent, but what else?
If they want to run their turn 3 Karn into a mana leak, then they're more than welcome to. After that you hit them with a sowing salt or slaughter games and proceed to win.
Not saying that tron is a good matchup, but they still have to play around izzet charm, mana leak, inquisition, and other cards before worrying about sowing salt and slaughter games.
Also, if they go too slow, even tron has a difficult time dealing with simply getting burned off or hit with ultimatums.
Overall I was really excited with how the deck played out and I think Grixis Control is definitely a real deck. It has a pretty high learning curve and requires good deckbuilding choices, but it did exactly what it was intended to do - read your opponent's strategy, control the game, and burn out the opponent. Thoughtflare was a real champ for me as it let me pitch less useful cards for much better ones while digging deep for the answers I needed. Also, absolutely do not underestimate the power of the "Augur get there" plan because it digs for answers while slowly taking a decent chunk out of your opponent's life total. With all the card filtering, your 2 and 1 ofs become a lot more relevant than usual so keep that in mind when constructing your build. I had a blast playing it and it really felt like a very solid and reliable deck
Sweet to hear! I'm a big fan of thoughtflare. To me, it's a gem card that is overlooked for various reasons, but has a lot of highly relevant applications and uses. I know it gets compared to revelation, but to me, it plays much different than revelation does between the dig potential for 5 mana (where revelation only gets 2 cards deep) and the filtering it provides.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find me online - I'm on Cockatrice * Tag - Badd B - Or on MTGO - Tag - Cbus05
I can't speak for Magicman, but since our lists have been very similar, I think I can comment. To me, 25 lands is the "magic number" for lands in modern control. If you're playing 26 lands, I feel like I start to get flooded a lot, and at 24, I feel a bit low. In control mirrors, you can afford more land and tectonic edges, but in a more aggressive format, you want a higher spell count with super efficient removal and disruption.
The biggest thing to keep in mind, is the more cantripping effects you play, the less land you can afford to play with. If you're playing 4 serum visions, you may be able to afford 24 land, although I feel 2-3 is the right number of visions to play. Remand, Electrolyze, Repeal, Serum Visions, and Cryptic Command all help you to hit your land drops with greater ease while delaying your opponent's gameplan. With cruel control, you more or less just have to worry about controlling the board until you can reach 7 mana to resolve your ultimatum (which your cantrippers help to find).
I also want to emphasize one of the strengths of the list Magicman posted. It's incredibly consistent, even moreso than UWR wafo-tapa control (and it needs to be to hit cruel ultimatums consistently). This becomes extra helpful in game 2 and game 3 where you really want to make sure you can hit your slaughter games, damnation, or sowing salt on cue as of turn 4. Between Augur, serum visions, and all the other cantrip effects you play, you can consistently find cards that are only a 2-of in just about every game.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find me online - I'm on Cockatrice * Tag - Badd B - Or on MTGO - Tag - Cbus05
I've been running 26 since the get and most recently thought about dropping down to 25. I feel like it may just be the right number I'm looking for without going too low. I put a deck together the other night that is similar to yours Magicman, hope you don't mind :rolleyes:. I'm going to put it up after I get home from work.
It's not that it was working or broken but it felt like a majority of the time I would be stuck drawing lands and have several turns of land draws so by atleast cutting it by 1 won't do harm. I've seen better results in testing now.
In the last lists you have posted, and the primer at first page, I havent seen any discussion about batterskull in the sideboard. What makes it so bad that it isnt mentioned at all, although its very resilient after the opponent would remove all their removals but burn g2/3?
Even in mirror control deck it could be usefull as if there is a chance to resolve it , it would stay there for the rest of the game until all resourses are depleted from both players hands, ready to equip a land or snapcaster or even replay it
I was actually thinking about removing my last terminate for a 3rd of something else, like izzet charm, because the likely hood of me pulling that terminate when I need/want it is unlikely.
Is the spell snare for when you drop a cruel and want to counter war? Or as a quick counter for cheap spells? I've never played one.
Batterskull can be better than wurmcoil since it's more resilient to path and removal spells, but it's splitting hairs. Either way, I don't think it's necessary to play either, but i've had better luck with batterskull in snapcaster mage decks since you can equip it soon after it gets "dealt with" and late game, you can bounce it to recast it later on.
I will say, I think this deck has a pretty solid leg up in the UWR control mirror. You just have a lot more tools to deal with them than they do to you. And while it may not be an instant, Cruel Ultimatum is way more devastating than Revalation, and you have more tools to resolve it than they do, especially during game 2 and 3, where you can wreck their hand with discard spells and slaughter games.
So in Game 2 and 3 against them you'd be bringing in discard and slaughter games I'm guessing from what you just said xD, is there anything else you would bring in against them?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Ingenuity is great. You really can't go wrong with either. I personally like Thoughtflare since you dig deeper, which is extremely helpful when you're trying to find 1 of 2 Cruel Ultimatums, and you really want to be able to hit it consistently every game. It also has some small synergy with Snapcaster Mage and Cruel Ultimatum.
The drawback over ingenuity of course, is that Ingenuity draws you 1 more card. Both have advantages and weaknesses, but I like the filtering and digging aspect of Thoughtflare slightly more.
Opportunity is getting a reprint in m14. Would that be better than either Jace's or Thoughtflare?
if i were to pick between thoughtflare or opportunity I'd go with thoughtflare since it's a turn sooner for the same amount of draw. Same draw engine but it comes down to speed really. You could test it out but I think I'd prefer thoughtflare or jace's over opportunity.
UUBBBRR
It can be pretty competitive if built properly. It takes some practice and skill to play, especially in a diverse format like modern. The card advantage, disruption, and removal is second to none in the modern format. I would start with the most current list provided in the OP by MagicMan and go from there.
The drawbacks? Tron is still difficult to deal with, but it IS winnable (just not favorable). RDW and Burn based decks can be problematic since g1 you don't realistically have any life-gain until turn 7, and game 2 & 3, you can (will) get blown out by Blood Moon pretty easily. Affinity can also do a bloodmoon blow out (although dealing with their creatures isn't that difficult).
Dealing with resolved planeswalkers or birthing pods can also be annoying, especially if you aren't playing trinket mage / pithing needle maindeck. A resolved Liliana of the Veil or Ajani Vengeant is difficult to deal with when you don't have tons of creatures to attack them with. It's certainly manageable, but it's definitely an "annoyance" more than anything else.
Most other matchups are pretty "even". One strength of this deck is it's ability to deal with hexproof creatures that otherwise cause problems, namely Geist of Saint Traft via Devour Flesh (or Damnation).
1 Blood Crypt
4 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Island
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Sunken Ruins
2 Watery Grave
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
4 Cryptic Command
2 Damnation
1 Dismember
3 Duress
3 Electrolyze
1 Far/Away
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mana Leak
2 Shadow of Doubt
2 Terminate
1 Batterskull
2 Counterflux
1 Devour Flesh
3 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Magma Spray
2 Shadow of Doubt
2 Slaughter Games
2 Sowing Salt
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
I don't see how it's better than relic outside of the birthing pod matchup. With that said, against birthing pod, it's really good.
You could also run shadow of doubt for a sweet 2 for 1
Btw, what are the cards to bring in and side out in this matchup? I guess discard and counters are decent, but what else?
If they want to run their turn 3 Karn into a mana leak, then they're more than welcome to. After that you hit them with a sowing salt or slaughter games and proceed to win.
Not saying that tron is a good matchup, but they still have to play around izzet charm, mana leak, inquisition, and other cards before worrying about sowing salt and slaughter games.
Also, if they go too slow, even tron has a difficult time dealing with simply getting burned off or hit with ultimatums.
Sweet to hear! I'm a big fan of thoughtflare. To me, it's a gem card that is overlooked for various reasons, but has a lot of highly relevant applications and uses. I know it gets compared to revelation, but to me, it plays much different than revelation does between the dig potential for 5 mana (where revelation only gets 2 cards deep) and the filtering it provides.
UUBBBRR
I can't speak for Magicman, but since our lists have been very similar, I think I can comment. To me, 25 lands is the "magic number" for lands in modern control. If you're playing 26 lands, I feel like I start to get flooded a lot, and at 24, I feel a bit low. In control mirrors, you can afford more land and tectonic edges, but in a more aggressive format, you want a higher spell count with super efficient removal and disruption.
The biggest thing to keep in mind, is the more cantripping effects you play, the less land you can afford to play with. If you're playing 4 serum visions, you may be able to afford 24 land, although I feel 2-3 is the right number of visions to play. Remand, Electrolyze, Repeal, Serum Visions, and Cryptic Command all help you to hit your land drops with greater ease while delaying your opponent's gameplan. With cruel control, you more or less just have to worry about controlling the board until you can reach 7 mana to resolve your ultimatum (which your cantrippers help to find).
I also want to emphasize one of the strengths of the list Magicman posted. It's incredibly consistent, even moreso than UWR wafo-tapa control (and it needs to be to hit cruel ultimatums consistently). This becomes extra helpful in game 2 and game 3 where you really want to make sure you can hit your slaughter games, damnation, or sowing salt on cue as of turn 4. Between Augur, serum visions, and all the other cantrip effects you play, you can consistently find cards that are only a 2-of in just about every game.
UUBBBRR
2 Watery Grave
1 Cascade Bluffs
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
3 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Drowned Catacomb
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Steam Vents
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
2 Reflecting Pool
1 Blood Crypt
4 Augur of Bolas
2 Serum Visions
2 Electrolyze
1 repeal
2 Cruel Ultimatum
3 Cryptic Command
2 Devour Flesh
2 Damnation
1 Remand
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Thoughtflare
2 Izzet Charm
2 Mana Leak
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 slaughter games
2 rakdos charm
2 doom blade
2 flash freeze
2 volcanic fallout
2 shadow of doubt
1 consuming vapors
UUBBBRR
Even in mirror control deck it could be usefull as if there is a chance to resolve it , it would stay there for the rest of the game until all resourses are depleted from both players hands, ready to equip a land or snapcaster or even replay it
Is the spell snare for when you drop a cruel and want to counter war? Or as a quick counter for cheap spells? I've never played one.
UUBBBRR
I will say, I think this deck has a pretty solid leg up in the UWR control mirror. You just have a lot more tools to deal with them than they do to you. And while it may not be an instant, Cruel Ultimatum is way more devastating than Revalation, and you have more tools to resolve it than they do, especially during game 2 and 3, where you can wreck their hand with discard spells and slaughter games.