Well that depends on what type of cards you are trying to counter with Logic Knot. The eighth counterspell in your deck could be a 1 of Countersquall or some super secret tech like Imp's Mischief.
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
Well that depends on what type of cards you are trying to counter with Logic Knot. The eighth counterspell in your deck could be a 1 of Countersquall or some super secret tech like Imp's Mischief.
I think of everything you listed I think I'd most like to fit the Deprive. That also makes me want to try to use a small Tolaria West, Pact of Negation, Slaughter Pact package as well which I have no idea where I would put into the deck, but that's all probably a bit to cute in the end.
One other thing I've really been happy with in my list is a Mainboard Vendilion Clique. I left it in the sideboard for a while, but this guy is still great and I'm not sure why I put him there. The card has been awesome everytime I've cast it, and I couldn't realistically see why we would want it in the board. He is great in practically every match I've played and in a pinch he can even help fix our hand or get rid of a permanent in conjunction with cryptic command. He only feels really poor against lingering souls, but other than that I believe we should have at least one somewhere in the 60 and possibly 2.
Well that depends on what type of cards you are trying to counter with Logic Knot. The eighth counterspell in your deck could be a 1 of Countersquall or some super secret tech like Imp's Mischief.
I think of everything you listed I think I'd most like to fit the Deprive. That also makes me want to try to use a small Tolaria West, Pact of Negation, Slaughter Pact package as well which I have no idea where I would put into the deck, but that's all probably a bit to cute in the end.
One other thing I've really been happy with in my list is a Mainboard Vendilion Clique. I left it in the sideboard for a while, but this guy is still great and I'm not sure why I put him there. The card has been awesome everytime I've cast it, and I couldn't realistically see why we would want it in the board. He is great in practically every match I've played and in a pinch he can even help fix our hand or get rid of a permanent in conjunction with cryptic command. He only feels really poor against lingering souls, but other than that I believe we should have at least one somewhere in the 60 and possibly 2.
Few notes to the latest discussion first before I get into my observations from tonight's Modern Event.
1.) Deprive; hate that card. I like it if we're the NON Cruel List; in fact I like it alot. But because we are working towards CRUELS; I feel it just sets us back too much to be worth while. Otherwise; it's a fantastic Counter; and sure; alot can be said if it's being used as a 1 of for our HARD COUNTER slot; but yea I think I'm going to steer clear of it.
2.) Vendilion Clique; so tonight it felt really really underwhelming; but the thing that stuck out at me is just the fact I get to peek at my Opponents Hand and can catch them Sandbagging Lands trying to BLUFF me or gaining valuable information. So although I do think it's pretty MEH more often then not; it's also GREAT GREAT in a few matchups; but even in the majority of matchups I feel it's MEH; you still get to peek at their hand and gain good information. The thing too is; you don't have to make them discard; take a PEEK; and if you have the cards to deal with what is in their hand; choose not to Discard so they don't cantrip. So although I find it MEH more often then not; at the end of the day it's a great PEEK utility; and it's a 3/1 body. So it really fits fine in alot of my GM1s; and more often then not can be sided out. The matchups where it really shines; it's GREAT!
With those little things being said...
So I didn't get to play last week; but the week before that I won 3-0 and this week I went 2-1.
Here's the list I had; it's a bit older from my CURRENT list; but since I didn't get to play last week; I forced myself to keep the previous version with the Tombstalkers so I could gain that needed data/information.
And I gotta say; I'm glad I did... cuz Tombstalkers and the x2 Mulldrifters proved to be pretty good.
WIN 2-1 ROUND 1 VS Jund Living End Combo
+Really don't remember much about this match; first time I played it; pretty much pegged it immediately for what it was worth.
+I didn't feel like I was never really in control; sure in GM2 I lost; but it was a bit of bad luck with a misplay.
LOSS 1-2 ROUND 2 VS Grixis Control
+It was the standard 3 Gurmag 2 Tasigur 22 Land list.
+It was interesting; the Mulldrifter and Tombstalker proved to be very strong in GM2 and ran away with the game.
+In Game 1 however; we go to about 10 Turns; just going back and fourth; he didn't really do anything that I felt left me out of control... but it got to a point where I needed a CRUEL to restock; and just lost a war of attrition; flooded out a bit.
+In Game 3 I kept a poor hand; he stuck Turn 2 Tasigur. That stuck around for a few turns; never got the Terminates; and finally I did get one but by that point he had the Cryptic Backup.
-We talked after the match; at that point I revealed to him what my deck was "REALLY" about... by this point he just assumed it was a tweek from the Tasigur/Gurmag Control build... but noticed I was running more lands because each game I was sitting on 10 to 12 lands before I died. I showed him the Cruels; so then the Mulldrifters made alot more sence to him. He admitted that Mulldrifters and Tombstalkers were really good VS him; when the Tombstalker finished the game; I had ran him out of Removal and it just got there and ended things quickly. He felt Mulldrifter was really good VS Him because they helped me win the Attrition War in the 2nd game.
-He felt had I not flooded out in GM1; I would of taken Game 1; a single Cruel would of turned the tides big time. In Game 3 with the Turn 2 Tasigur; he admitted that it was a bit lucky and all in all he felt I was more geared to beating his deck.
-IN theory; I agree; if you successfully deal with the Gurmags and Tasigurs; they don't really have much else going for them after that.
+And who knows; maybe I should of played the DIRTY game and brought in my Land Destruction Package VS him??? LOL
WIN 2-1 ROUND 3 VS Mono Black Aggro
+Lost Game 1; just out aggroed me and I didn't keep a great hand.
+Once I saw what I was up against; the sideboard plan was easy.
+Dominated from there...
The person that won tonight was playing BURN; he's the same person I have now beat in about 4 straight matches. 2 weeks ago I went undefeated and he was one of the players I beat.
He beat the Grixis Control player that I lost to.
I talked to the Grixis Control player about the Burn match; and he said it's his worst matchup for sure...
I kind of chuckled as I know that matchup very well; and feel like I have a great matchup VS them now and know how the match has to play out...
I did not share my Burn Matchup notes... #Hater HAHA
So with all this being said; I was going to shift my deck and move away from Tombstalker.
However; although in theory I thought Gurmag would be better; and I was planning to go back to 2 Gurmag and 1 Tasigur and go back to being more of a Hybrid of the Control Version of Grixis while also being CRUEL.
However; I saw enough of Tombstalker tonight that I feel it's solid and I think it'll stay.
So because I'm going to keep Tombstalker; I'm still going to go to a 2/1 split... but instead of going 2 Gurmag 1 Tasigur; and switching it to 2 Tombstalker and 1 Tasigur; I'm actually going to go 2 Tasigur and 1 Tombstalker.
Tasigur ends up eating removal the moment you play it; regardless if you're activating or not.
In our decks; I don't think we really want to focus on activating it too often; I think we activate it when we've cleaned up the GY and are going into the realms of a GRINDY war of attrition match.
So the fact that Tasigur is Cheaper than both Gurmag and Tombstalker; I'd rather run a Tasigur out there early to eat up removal; Kolaghan Command Tasigur back; replay it; to eat up more removal.
Counter the Removal when I can; to the point you know they are all dried out and drop Tombstalker.
Beyond that observation; everything else will stay the same.
Now; I do wonder about only having 7 Cantrips... BUT: I do run 2 Mulldrifters; and I have to say I'm very pleased with it.
I feel it's going to be great in the Control Mirrors; and it's going to give me an edge where most of the other decks are just going to be Cantriping and don't really have alot of DRAW going on.
So I think I can get away with 7 Cantrips.
I pulled the Shadow of Doubt to give me my 2nd Tasigur; I think that's ok.
I think with Shadow of Doubt; once people know you have it; and it's on their radar; they play around it and it becomes less and less good from week to week.
So I think it's going to be one of those cards that I put back into my mainboard 60 once and a blue moon just to keep my opponents honest and guessing.
But ultimately I'd rather something that does MORE VS MORE than Shadow of Doubt.
So there's my observations/opinions from tonight...
what do you think of this card? pyromancers goggles
it is a potential 2 cruel ultimatum in turn 6
I saw it; and I think it's really cute... but I don't think it's where I want to be.
Others might find it useful and interesting and worth a try; but def not me.
Too many Kolaghan's Commands seeing play... the thing is; I rarely ever want to tap out on Turn 5 as it is...
And if I do tap out on Turn 5; I would rather play Keranos... Tapping out on Turn 5 for this Artifact doesn't seem super great; although Tapping out on 5 for this gives us what 2 Lightning Bolts....
But with only 2 Cruels in the deck; I'd only want to run potentially 1 of the Goggles; so how often would we ever get to see the cute combination?
Would it really be worth it at that point?
With that said; are we aloud to talk Origins now? I didn't catch that memo...
Well that depends on what type of cards you are trying to counter with Logic Knot. The eighth counterspell in your deck could be a 1 of Countersquall or some super secret tech like Imp's Mischief.
I think of everything you listed I think I'd most like to fit the Deprive. That also makes me want to try to use a small Tolaria West, Pact of Negation, Slaughter Pact package as well which I have no idea where I would put into the deck, but that's all probably a bit to cute in the end.
One other thing I've really been happy with in my list is a Mainboard Vendilion Clique. I left it in the sideboard for a while, but this guy is still great and I'm not sure why I put him there. The card has been awesome everytime I've cast it, and I couldn't realistically see why we would want it in the board. He is great in practically every match I've played and in a pinch he can even help fix our hand or get rid of a permanent in conjunction with cryptic command. He only feels really poor against lingering souls, but other than that I believe we should have at least one somewhere in the 60 and possibly 2.
Few notes to the latest discussion first before I get into my observations from tonight's Modern Event.
1.) Deprive; hate that card. I like it if we're the NON Cruel List; in fact I like it alot. But because we are working towards CRUELS; I feel it just sets us back too much to be worth while. Otherwise; it's a fantastic Counter; and sure; alot can be said if it's being used as a 1 of for our HARD COUNTER slot; but yea I think I'm going to steer clear of it.
2.) Vendilion Clique; so tonight it felt really really underwhelming; but the thing that stuck out at me is just the fact I get to peek at my Opponents Hand and can catch them Sandbagging Lands trying to BLUFF me or gaining valuable information. So although I do think it's pretty MEH more often then not; it's also GREAT GREAT in a few matchups; but even in the majority of matchups I feel it's MEH; you still get to peek at their hand and gain good information. The thing too is; you don't have to make them discard; take a PEEK; and if you have the cards to deal with what is in their hand; choose not to Discard so they don't cantrip. So although I find it MEH more often then not; at the end of the day it's a great PEEK utility; and it's a 3/1 body. So it really fits fine in alot of my GM1s; and more often then not can be sided out. The matchups where it really shines; it's GREAT!
With those little things being said...
So I didn't get to play last week; but the week before that I won 3-0 and this week I went 2-1.
Here's the list I had; it's a bit older from my CURRENT list; but since I didn't get to play last week; I forced myself to keep the previous version with the Tombstalkers so I could gain that needed data/information.
And I gotta say; I'm glad I did... cuz Tombstalkers and the x2 Mulldrifters proved to be pretty good.
WIN 2-1 ROUND 1 VS Jund Living End Combo
+Really don't remember much about this match; first time I played it; pretty much pegged it immediately for what it was worth.
+I didn't feel like I was never really in control; sure in GM2 I lost; but it was a bit of bad luck with a misplay.
LOSS 1-2 ROUND 2 VS Grixis Control
+It was the standard 3 Gurmag 2 Tasigur 22 Land list.
+It was interesting; the Mulldrifter and Tombstalker proved to be very strong in GM2 and ran away with the game.
+In Game 1 however; we go to about 10 Turns; just going back and fourth; he didn't really do anything that I felt left me out of control... but it got to a point where I needed a CRUEL to restock; and just lost a war of attrition; flooded out a bit.
+In Game 3 I kept a poor hand; he stuck Turn 2 Tasigur. That stuck around for a few turns; never got the Terminates; and finally I did get one but by that point he had the Cryptic Backup.
-We talked after the match; at that point I revealed to him what my deck was "REALLY" about... by this point he just assumed it was a tweek from the Tasigur/Gurmag Control build... but noticed I was running more lands because each game I was sitting on 10 to 12 lands before I died. I showed him the Cruels; so then the Mulldrifters made alot more sence to him. He admitted that Mulldrifters and Tombstalkers were really good VS him; when the Tombstalker finished the game; I had ran him out of Removal and it just got there and ended things quickly. He felt Mulldrifter was really good VS Him because they helped me win the Attrition War in the 2nd game.
-He felt had I not flooded out in GM1; I would of taken Game 1; a single Cruel would of turned the tides big time. In Game 3 with the Turn 2 Tasigur; he admitted that it was a bit lucky and all in all he felt I was more geared to beating his deck.
-IN theory; I agree; if you successfully deal with the Gurmags and Tasigurs; they don't really have much else going for them after that.
+And who knows; maybe I should of played the DIRTY game and brought in my Land Destruction Package VS him??? LOL
WIN 2-1 ROUND 3 VS Mono Black Aggro
+Lost Game 1; just out aggroed me and I didn't keep a great hand.
+Once I saw what I was up against; the sideboard plan was easy.
+Dominated from there...
The person that won tonight was playing BURN; he's the same person I have now beat in about 4 straight matches. 2 weeks ago I went undefeated and he was one of the players I beat.
He beat the Grixis Control player that I lost to.
I talked to the Grixis Control player about the Burn match; and he said it's his worst matchup for sure...
I kind of chuckled as I know that matchup very well; and feel like I have a great matchup VS them now and know how the match has to play out...
I did not share my Burn Matchup notes... #Hater HAHA
So with all this being said; I was going to shift my deck and move away from Tombstalker.
However; although in theory I thought Gurmag would be better; and I was planning to go back to 2 Gurmag and 1 Tasigur and go back to being more of a Hybrid of the Control Version of Grixis while also being CRUEL.
However; I saw enough of Tombstalker tonight that I feel it's solid and I think it'll stay.
So because I'm going to keep Tombstalker; I'm still going to go to a 2/1 split... but instead of going 2 Gurmag 1 Tasigur; and switching it to 2 Tombstalker and 1 Tasigur; I'm actually going to go 2 Tasigur and 1 Tombstalker.
Tasigur ends up eating removal the moment you play it; regardless if you're activating or not.
In our decks; I don't think we really want to focus on activating it too often; I think we activate it when we've cleaned up the GY and are going into the realms of a GRINDY war of attrition match.
So the fact that Tasigur is Cheaper than both Gurmag and Tombstalker; I'd rather run a Tasigur out there early to eat up removal; Kolaghan Command Tasigur back; replay it; to eat up more removal.
Counter the Removal when I can; to the point you know they are all dried out and drop Tombstalker.
Beyond that observation; everything else will stay the same.
Now; I do wonder about only having 7 Cantrips... BUT: I do run 2 Mulldrifters; and I have to say I'm very pleased with it.
I feel it's going to be great in the Control Mirrors; and it's going to give me an edge where most of the other decks are just going to be Cantriping and don't really have alot of DRAW going on.
So I think I can get away with 7 Cantrips.
I pulled the Shadow of Doubt to give me my 2nd Tasigur; I think that's ok.
I think with Shadow of Doubt; once people know you have it; and it's on their radar; they play around it and it becomes less and less good from week to week.
So I think it's going to be one of those cards that I put back into my mainboard 60 once and a blue moon just to keep my opponents honest and guessing.
But ultimately I'd rather something that does MORE VS MORE than Shadow of Doubt.
So there's my observations/opinions from tonight...
Well I found different results from my Thursday night testing.
We played four rounds and I went 2-2 this week after not playing last week.
Round 1 Affinity 1-2
I easily took game 1 and then died the following games to etched champion plus Darksteel plate. I've never seen plate in affinity, but had no real outs to champion after he was equipped.
Round 2 Naya Company 2-0
Game 1 he hits heirarch into goyf into collected company and I play damnation and take over with a Tasigur, followed by an ultimatum.
Game 2 I play clique to take his company before he can cast it and one for one him until he loses to Ultimatum.
Round 3 G/R Tron 1-2
I steal game one while on the play and taking his tron land he searched up with clique. I also caught his oblivion stone with kolaghan's command and he just fell to far behind.
Game two he blows me out, game three was long and drug out but somehow I never saw Fulminator Mage... I miss the line of
Kolaghan's command clique back to my hand to take Emrakul, before he can untap and cast it and deal him 2 and let keranos bolt him for the win. Oh well.. Can't win them all.
Round 4 G/W Hate bears 2-1
Dominated game 1
Game 2 narrowly lost out because of a Timely Gaddock Teeg that I couldn't answer with Damnation.
Game 3 he has a land light hand and I start complicating things by bouncing his colored sources and he dies with only 3 lands in play after a sweeper and an ultimatum.
Worst card in the deck was Logic Knot, and I always felt flooded on Serum Visions... I was usually sitting with at least one in hand, and it usually set there doing nothing while my mana was committed to doing other things. I think I really liked 3,but 4 felt really bad last night. I can also agree that the single shadow of doubt was lackluster and maybe it should just be another terminate.
Best card of the night was vendilion clique by a long shot.
You are currently trying 2 clique or two electrolyze? I am actually debating cutting one of my electrolyze for a 3rd terminate, but I haven't quite made that jump yet. I just think electrolyze is getting worse in general, but I hate losing a cantrip. I could also see it becoming a 2nd clique, but at that point I'd really like to just explore maybe vedalken Shackles in the main.
I would definitely prioritize Terminate > Electrolyze > Shadow of Doubt.
I have been an advocate for 3 Terminates from the very beginning even after quite of few kept telling me 3 was 1 to many...
Fact of the matter is; if I could cut something to make room for a 4th; I would.
As for the 4 Serum Visions; IDK how that works... Serum Visions in some matchups easily turns into the best card I play quite often.
I've never had them just sitting...
VS the Affinity Etched Champion + Darksteel Plate; WOW!!! Why isn't all Affinity Players doing that? I haven't ever see that either and that does seem pretty HOSEY.
I mean sure; Cryptic is basically our primary out; if they have no other creatures out then we have CRUEL where they still have to SAC the Champion.
But beyond either of those; we're pretty hosed to that...
I've considered Into the Core; that used to be a great Artifact hoser back in the day...
IDK; I peg you (GURU) to be a very competent player and pilot of the Grixis Cruel deck; is it possible that the combination just caught you off guard once?
And now that you know about it; you could easily play it different and it wouldn't be so bad?
I think that's something to consider... I'd love to hear your thoughts on that?
I would definitely prioritize Terminate > Electrolyze > Shadow of Doubt.
I have been an advocate for 3 Terminates from the very beginning even after quite of few kept telling me 3 was 1 to many...
Fact of the matter is; if I could cut something to make room for a 4th; I would.
As for the 4 Serum Visions; IDK how that works... Serum Visions in some matchups easily turns into the best card I play quite often.
I've never had them just sitting...
VS the Affinity Etched Champion + Darksteel Plate; WOW!!! Why isn't all Affinity Players doing that? I haven't ever see that either and that does seem pretty HOSEY.
I mean sure; Cryptic is basically our primary out; if they have no other creatures out then we have CRUEL where they still have to SAC the Champion.
But beyond either of those; we're pretty hosed to that...
I've considered Into the Core; that used to be a great Artifact hoser back in the day...
IDK; I peg you (GURU) to be a very good competent player and pilot of the Grixis Cruel deck; is it possible that the combination just caught you off guard once?
And now that you know about it; you could easily play it different and it wouldn't be so bad?
I think that's something to consider... I'd love to hear your thoughts on that?
I think into the core choice if that card picks up in popularity. I think it was mostly just some random jank that kinda got me outta nowhere because at that point damnation nor any of our removal works unless we have some Edict effect to make things easier. I also think that maybe even barter in blood could be what we start to look at if it becomes the new thing. I don't look for it to catch on though.
I also normally wouldn't debate a 3rd terminate, but I've really been feeling under more pressure against creature decks especially with the uptick of Knight of the Reliquary recently and the fact that I rarely seen my Tasigur's early enough to kinda slow them down.
I also really question the use of Suffer the Past in our burn match. I think I'm going to go down a different path because this card is so mana intensive and can be caught with one of their 8 different cards that can negate it period if we don't have a cheap answer to try and stop it. I think I'm going to try my old favorite in Homicidal Seclusion.
I don't just use Suffer the Past VS Burn; this is why I use Suffer the Past; because I also bring it in VS decks that have GY interactions.
IE: I brought it in VS the Living End deck; I didn't see it and didn't need it; but it's handy if I draw it in a pinch.
I brought it in VS the Mono Black Aggro match; and it was handy as it Exiled a few of the creatures that can be played from the GY. Gain about 4 or 5 Life and stop their resiliency.
As far as Burn; yes burn has what? Skullcrack? Atarka's Command? So sure; I supposed they could be running 4 of each of those; but generally they don't. They are usually running 4 Atarka's Command; and anywhere between 0 to 2 Skullcracks. I'm not sure I've ever seen a deck running all 8 of these.
With that being said; the one area I feel we absolutely DON'T want; is Artifacts.
Enchantments might be an option simply because all they really have to destroy the Enchantment is Destructive Revelry. And generally they have 3 or 4 of those.
So the odds are still about the same as my Suffer the Past option; and depending upon the list could be a better option that the Suffer the Past.
If anyones expecting an Artifact to solve the matchup; they'll be sorely mistaken because not only do they run Destructive Revelery; but also Smash to Smithereens.
So there's usually anywhere between 5 to 8 answers that also do damage.
SO I could get behind an Enchantment.
The reason I liked Suffer the Past is because I can Snapcaster Mage it back even if they do try to stop it with an Atarka's Command or Skullcrack early.
Where if they destroy the Enchantment; we have no way to get it back really...
The problem I have though with your Enchantment choice of Homicidal Seclusion; you're tapping out for it on Turn 5.
So hopefully to get max value out of it; hopefully you have the Gurmag or Tasigur in play already to swing and gain a bunch... but with these CRUEL lists; if you're running the Gurmag/Tasigur/Tombstalker package; you're running anywhere between 2 to 3 of those guys; so you're not guaranteed to have 1 of those creatures already out when you need to cast the Seclusion. Suffer the Past doesn't require anything else to make it work...
With Suffer the Past; I can tap all the way out but leave up 1 BLUE ISLAND and gain 4 or 5 life; if they try to Skullcrack or Atarka's Command it; I cast Spell Snare; or if I leave 2 mana up cast Mana Leak or something to potentially stop it; and gain 3 to 4 life... Most times that's all we need to buy ourselves 1 or 2 more turns.
So if I was to go Enchantment; I'd want something cheaper... something I could cast around Turn 5 and protect it; something that wouldn't require another card to make it work.
The other options we talked about privately was creature options...
The thing is; it's only ever going to be a 1 OF in my side... So I think the more impactful 1 of is Suffer the Past.
Having a 1 of Nighthawk; IDK if it's that impactful in more than just 1 matchup.
A 1 of Murk Lurker? Yea no...
A 1 of Homicidal Seclusion? Meh... ok.
Thus far I've been happy with Suffer the Past; I haven't been Skullcracked or Atarka's Commanded when I've used it yet thankfully; generally I either see the Suffer early and cast it when I "NEED" a little chunk of life to get me to Turn 7 to survive 1 or 2 more turns; and just be sure I'm not being too greedy with it when I cast the first one so I can protect it. And then Snapcaster it back and cast it for bigger later.
The other thing I like about Suffer though is we really can go down the BURN path against the Burn players... Lightning Bolts; Electrolyze; Kolaghan's Command; 1 or 2 Swings with a Gurmag; and then a Lethal Suffer the Past.
Even if they Skullcrack it; the damage still gets through...
Just some thoughts; I've gone into great lengths analyzing the Burn matchup; and I haven't lost to a Burn opponent in a few weeks.
Granted; I don't have a meta filled with Burn decks; there's really only 1 or 2 of the people I play against that plays it; and it's so inconsistent and easy to break when you break it... that some weeks it doesn't do well; some weeks it wins.
We've had this discussion before, and my point then maybe wasn't explained in depth enough... I mean it isn't a guarantee in anyway but I feel like in the burn match we are generally casting things early and even as something as small as a snapcaster is able to attack for 5 life if we can tap out for seclusion on turn 5. If we have a clique that's a solid 6 life and tasigur or Gurmag 7 or 8 life. It also works out with our Tar pits for some nasty racing potential there too. It's definitely not perfect by any means, but I feel it gives us a more than fair shot and it more than likely isn't a one turn deal.
We've had this discussion before, and my point then maybe wasn't explained in depth enough... I mean it isn't a guarantee in anyway but I feel like in the burn match we are generally casting things early and even as something as small as a snapcaster is able to attack for 5 life if we can tap out for seclusion on turn 5. If we have a clique that's a solid 6 life and tasigur or Gurmag 7 or 8 life. It also works out with our Tar pits for some nasty racing potential there too. It's definitely not perfect by any means, but I feel it gives us a more than fair shot and it more than likely isn't a one turn deal.
No I agree now and I agreed then I think.
Not a big fan of Seclusion; but I didn't test it; and theoretically it's just as much theorycrafting as my GoTo card of Suffer from the Past.
Both of which have issues dealing with the same answers; cuz incidentally Skullcrack and Atarka's Command keeps Seclusion off balance too the same way that it would stop a Suffer for 1 turn.
At any rate; I think we've both agreed to move on past the Artifact being the Savior in this Match.
I'm actually going to get me a Seclusion and play test it and see how it goes for me...
I think I've justified my position on Suffer the Past; but you've also made good points for Seclusion; and we both agree; neither one of them is a guarantee.
i remember playing lonely post in standard. homicidal seclusion does a lot. especially when paired up with the dimir keyrune. we however have creeping tar pit instead, he is a bit more resilient to removal. how many times do you guys have more than one creature anyway?
i ask cause my list plays like one tasigur and the batterskull. so for me that enchantment is used on them or one of my 4 tar pits. hmmm if we do switch to have that card would a 1 of lavaclaw reaches not be a bad idea?
psychic rebuttal looks like it is awesome against burn and jund. they play discard spells and you'll just be like nope, you discard. its about as funny as someone redirecting hymn to tourach.
which is really funny when it happens it's just so cruel.
psychic rebuttal looks like it is awesome against burn and jund. they play discard spells and you'll just be like nope, you discard. its about as funny as someone redirecting hymn to tourach.
which is really funny when it happens it's just so cruel.
I like the Rebuttal; but correct me if I'm wrong; Don't some of their burn spells say "Target Opponent"? And thus if that's true; wouldn't that negate the Rebuttal and make it a bit less spicy as it might initially seem?
Just curious; otherwise I do think it's a pretty sweet trick and warrants 1 of in the side... Could take the place of the Countersquall or even the Dispel from my list.
psychic rebuttal looks like it is awesome against burn and jund. they play discard spells and you'll just be like nope, you discard. its about as funny as someone redirecting hymn to tourach.
which is really funny when it happens it's just so cruel.
I like the Rebuttal; but correct me if I'm wrong; Don't some of their burn spells say "Target Opponent"? And thus if that's true; wouldn't that negate the Rebuttal and make it a bit less spicy as it might initially seem?
Just curious; otherwise I do think it's a pretty sweet trick and warrants 1 of in the side... Could take the place of the Countersquall or even the Dispel from my list.
Im not an expert at Magic rules, but I believe since the spell states "that targets you" anything targeting your face is a viable target for it, even if it stays opponent. Could be wrong though
Will be interesting to find out for sure; I'm no judge either; and sometimes these little wordings trip me up but I always find out...
So it'll be good to know.
At any rate; worst case scenario; I think it's great as a 1 of replacing a Dispel or even the Countersquall in my board.
Might even be better than Dispel in general...
And it'll be even better if it doesn't get hindered by any kind of "Opponent" wording.
You are correct. Let's say you are in a Cruel Control mirror and MrRotten casts Cruel Ultimatum. You cast Psychic Rebuttal with the spell mastery condition and get to Cruel Ultimatum for two mana. Key word is you may choose new targets.
Edit: Relevant rules
111.2. A spell’s owner is the same as the owner of the card that represents it, unless it’s a copy. In that
case, the owner of the spell is the player under whose control it was put on the stack. A spell’s
controller is, by default, the player who put it on the stack. Every spell has a controller.
700.2f A copy of a modal spell or ability copies the mode(s) chosen for it. The controller of the
copy can’t choose a different mode. (See rule 706.10.)
706.10. To copy a spell or activated ability means to put a copy of it onto the stack; a copy of a spell
isn’t cast and a copy of an activated ability isn’t activated. A copy of a spell or ability copies both
the characteristics of the spell or ability and all decisions made for it, including modes, targets, the
value of X, and additional or alternative costs. (See rule 601, “Casting Spells.”) Choices that are
normally made on resolution are not copied. If an effect of the copy refers to objects used to pay its
costs, it uses the objects used to pay the costs of the original spell or ability. A copy of a spell is
owned by the player under whose control it was put on the stack. A copy of a spell or ability is
controlled by the player under whose control it was put on the stack. A copy of a spell is itself a
spell, even though it has no spell card associated with it. A copy of an ability is itself an ability.
706.10c Some effects copy a spell or ability and state that its controller may choose new targets for
the copy. The player may leave any number of the targets unchanged, even if those targets
would be illegal. If the player chooses to change some or all of the targets, the new targets must
be legal. Once the player has decided what the copy’s targets will be, the copy is put onto the
stack with those targets.
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
Well since its a copy, you now control the copy so you can choose your opponent as the target (since the rebuttal states you can change the targets). So i think it wouldn't negate the rebuttal (im fairly sure anyway, but i guess i could be wrong). If the spell only let you "change" the targets, and not gain control of the spell through copying it, then yeah you cant change the target to your opponent because, since they control the spell, you are the only legal target.
I think the Gifts Ungiven package is a cute little idea, but I believe the card can just be better used in an Esper shell. I like the idea of it in concept, but I am not sure how many real threatening piles we can make after a certain point in the game. Then again, I am not exactly the most open to new concepts because I think my deck works fairly well most of the time.
Maybe a single deprive?
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
I think of everything you listed I think I'd most like to fit the Deprive. That also makes me want to try to use a small Tolaria West, Pact of Negation, Slaughter Pact package as well which I have no idea where I would put into the deck, but that's all probably a bit to cute in the end.
One other thing I've really been happy with in my list is a Mainboard Vendilion Clique. I left it in the sideboard for a while, but this guy is still great and I'm not sure why I put him there. The card has been awesome everytime I've cast it, and I couldn't realistically see why we would want it in the board. He is great in practically every match I've played and in a pinch he can even help fix our hand or get rid of a permanent in conjunction with cryptic command. He only feels really poor against lingering souls, but other than that I believe we should have at least one somewhere in the 60 and possibly 2.
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
Few notes to the latest discussion first before I get into my observations from tonight's Modern Event.
1.) Deprive; hate that card. I like it if we're the NON Cruel List; in fact I like it alot. But because we are working towards CRUELS; I feel it just sets us back too much to be worth while. Otherwise; it's a fantastic Counter; and sure; alot can be said if it's being used as a 1 of for our HARD COUNTER slot; but yea I think I'm going to steer clear of it.
2.) Vendilion Clique; so tonight it felt really really underwhelming; but the thing that stuck out at me is just the fact I get to peek at my Opponents Hand and can catch them Sandbagging Lands trying to BLUFF me or gaining valuable information. So although I do think it's pretty MEH more often then not; it's also GREAT GREAT in a few matchups; but even in the majority of matchups I feel it's MEH; you still get to peek at their hand and gain good information. The thing too is; you don't have to make them discard; take a PEEK; and if you have the cards to deal with what is in their hand; choose not to Discard so they don't cantrip. So although I find it MEH more often then not; at the end of the day it's a great PEEK utility; and it's a 3/1 body. So it really fits fine in alot of my GM1s; and more often then not can be sided out. The matchups where it really shines; it's GREAT!
With those little things being said...
So I didn't get to play last week; but the week before that I won 3-0 and this week I went 2-1.
Here's the list I had; it's a bit older from my CURRENT list; but since I didn't get to play last week; I forced myself to keep the previous version with the Tombstalkers so I could gain that needed data/information.
And I gotta say; I'm glad I did... cuz Tombstalkers and the x2 Mulldrifters proved to be pretty good.
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Tasigur, The Golden Fang
1 Tombstalker
2 Mulldrifter
Spells: 26
2 Cruel Ultimatum
1 Damnation
1 Anger of the Gods
3 Terminate
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Electrolyze
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Cryptic Command
1 Dispel
2 Mana Leak
2 Spell Snare
1 Shadow of Doubt
4 Serum Visions
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
Lands: 25
2 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
2 Blood Crypt
2 Sulfur Falls
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Island
3 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Dispel
1 Countersquall
2 Flashfreeze
1 Suffer the Past
1 Sowing Salt
4 Fulminator Mage
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Magma Spray
1 Go for the Throat
WIN 2-1 ROUND 1 VS Jund Living End Combo
+Really don't remember much about this match; first time I played it; pretty much pegged it immediately for what it was worth.
+I didn't feel like I was never really in control; sure in GM2 I lost; but it was a bit of bad luck with a misplay.
LOSS 1-2 ROUND 2 VS Grixis Control
+It was the standard 3 Gurmag 2 Tasigur 22 Land list.
+It was interesting; the Mulldrifter and Tombstalker proved to be very strong in GM2 and ran away with the game.
+In Game 1 however; we go to about 10 Turns; just going back and fourth; he didn't really do anything that I felt left me out of control... but it got to a point where I needed a CRUEL to restock; and just lost a war of attrition; flooded out a bit.
+In Game 3 I kept a poor hand; he stuck Turn 2 Tasigur. That stuck around for a few turns; never got the Terminates; and finally I did get one but by that point he had the Cryptic Backup.
-We talked after the match; at that point I revealed to him what my deck was "REALLY" about... by this point he just assumed it was a tweek from the Tasigur/Gurmag Control build... but noticed I was running more lands because each game I was sitting on 10 to 12 lands before I died. I showed him the Cruels; so then the Mulldrifters made alot more sence to him. He admitted that Mulldrifters and Tombstalkers were really good VS him; when the Tombstalker finished the game; I had ran him out of Removal and it just got there and ended things quickly. He felt Mulldrifter was really good VS Him because they helped me win the Attrition War in the 2nd game.
-He felt had I not flooded out in GM1; I would of taken Game 1; a single Cruel would of turned the tides big time. In Game 3 with the Turn 2 Tasigur; he admitted that it was a bit lucky and all in all he felt I was more geared to beating his deck.
-IN theory; I agree; if you successfully deal with the Gurmags and Tasigurs; they don't really have much else going for them after that.
+And who knows; maybe I should of played the DIRTY game and brought in my Land Destruction Package VS him??? LOL
WIN 2-1 ROUND 3 VS Mono Black Aggro
+Lost Game 1; just out aggroed me and I didn't keep a great hand.
+Once I saw what I was up against; the sideboard plan was easy.
+Dominated from there...
The person that won tonight was playing BURN; he's the same person I have now beat in about 4 straight matches. 2 weeks ago I went undefeated and he was one of the players I beat.
He beat the Grixis Control player that I lost to.
I talked to the Grixis Control player about the Burn match; and he said it's his worst matchup for sure...
I kind of chuckled as I know that matchup very well; and feel like I have a great matchup VS them now and know how the match has to play out...
I did not share my Burn Matchup notes... #Hater HAHA
So with all this being said; I was going to shift my deck and move away from Tombstalker.
However; although in theory I thought Gurmag would be better; and I was planning to go back to 2 Gurmag and 1 Tasigur and go back to being more of a Hybrid of the Control Version of Grixis while also being CRUEL.
However; I saw enough of Tombstalker tonight that I feel it's solid and I think it'll stay.
So because I'm going to keep Tombstalker; I'm still going to go to a 2/1 split... but instead of going 2 Gurmag 1 Tasigur; and switching it to 2 Tombstalker and 1 Tasigur; I'm actually going to go 2 Tasigur and 1 Tombstalker.
Tasigur ends up eating removal the moment you play it; regardless if you're activating or not.
In our decks; I don't think we really want to focus on activating it too often; I think we activate it when we've cleaned up the GY and are going into the realms of a GRINDY war of attrition match.
So the fact that Tasigur is Cheaper than both Gurmag and Tombstalker; I'd rather run a Tasigur out there early to eat up removal; Kolaghan Command Tasigur back; replay it; to eat up more removal.
Counter the Removal when I can; to the point you know they are all dried out and drop Tombstalker.
Beyond that observation; everything else will stay the same.
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Tasigur, The Golden Fang
1 Tombstalker
2 Mulldrifter
Spells: 25
2 Cruel Ultimatum
1 Damnation
1 Anger of the Gods
3 Terminate
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Electrolyze
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Cryptic Command
1 Dispel
2 Mana Leak
2 Spell Snare
4 Serum Visions
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
Lands: 25
2 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
2 Blood Crypt
2 Sulfur Falls
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Island
3 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Dispel
1 Countersquall
2 Flashfreeze
1 Suffer the Past
1 Sowing Salt
4 Fulminator Mage
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Magma Spray
1 Go for the Throat
Now; I do wonder about only having 7 Cantrips... BUT: I do run 2 Mulldrifters; and I have to say I'm very pleased with it.
I feel it's going to be great in the Control Mirrors; and it's going to give me an edge where most of the other decks are just going to be Cantriping and don't really have alot of DRAW going on.
So I think I can get away with 7 Cantrips.
I pulled the Shadow of Doubt to give me my 2nd Tasigur; I think that's ok.
I think with Shadow of Doubt; once people know you have it; and it's on their radar; they play around it and it becomes less and less good from week to week.
So I think it's going to be one of those cards that I put back into my mainboard 60 once and a blue moon just to keep my opponents honest and guessing.
But ultimately I'd rather something that does MORE VS MORE than Shadow of Doubt.
So there's my observations/opinions from tonight...
what do you think of this card? pyromancers goggles
it is a potential 2 cruel ultimatum in turn 6
I saw it; and I think it's really cute... but I don't think it's where I want to be.
Others might find it useful and interesting and worth a try; but def not me.
Too many Kolaghan's Commands seeing play... the thing is; I rarely ever want to tap out on Turn 5 as it is...
And if I do tap out on Turn 5; I would rather play Keranos... Tapping out on Turn 5 for this Artifact doesn't seem super great; although Tapping out on 5 for this gives us what 2 Lightning Bolts....
But with only 2 Cruels in the deck; I'd only want to run potentially 1 of the Goggles; so how often would we ever get to see the cute combination?
Would it really be worth it at that point?
With that said; are we aloud to talk Origins now? I didn't catch that memo...
Well I found different results from my Thursday night testing.
We played four rounds and I went 2-2 this week after not playing last week.
Round 1 Affinity 1-2
I easily took game 1 and then died the following games to etched champion plus Darksteel plate. I've never seen plate in affinity, but had no real outs to champion after he was equipped.
Round 2 Naya Company 2-0
Game 1 he hits heirarch into goyf into collected company and I play damnation and take over with a Tasigur, followed by an ultimatum.
Game 2 I play clique to take his company before he can cast it and one for one him until he loses to Ultimatum.
Round 3 G/R Tron 1-2
I steal game one while on the play and taking his tron land he searched up with clique. I also caught his oblivion stone with kolaghan's command and he just fell to far behind.
Game two he blows me out, game three was long and drug out but somehow I never saw Fulminator Mage... I miss the line of
Kolaghan's command clique back to my hand to take Emrakul, before he can untap and cast it and deal him 2 and let keranos bolt him for the win. Oh well.. Can't win them all.
Round 4 G/W Hate bears 2-1
Dominated game 1
Game 2 narrowly lost out because of a Timely Gaddock Teeg that I couldn't answer with Damnation.
Game 3 he has a land light hand and I start complicating things by bouncing his colored sources and he dies with only 3 lands in play after a sweeper and an ultimatum.
Worst card in the deck was Logic Knot, and I always felt flooded on Serum Visions... I was usually sitting with at least one in hand, and it usually set there doing nothing while my mana was committed to doing other things. I think I really liked 3,but 4 felt really bad last night. I can also agree that the single shadow of doubt was lackluster and maybe it should just be another terminate.
Best card of the night was vendilion clique by a long shot.
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
You are currently trying 2 clique or two electrolyze? I am actually debating cutting one of my electrolyze for a 3rd terminate, but I haven't quite made that jump yet. I just think electrolyze is getting worse in general, but I hate losing a cantrip. I could also see it becoming a 2nd clique, but at that point I'd really like to just explore maybe vedalken Shackles in the main.
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
I have been an advocate for 3 Terminates from the very beginning even after quite of few kept telling me 3 was 1 to many...
Fact of the matter is; if I could cut something to make room for a 4th; I would.
As for the 4 Serum Visions; IDK how that works... Serum Visions in some matchups easily turns into the best card I play quite often.
I've never had them just sitting...
VS the Affinity Etched Champion + Darksteel Plate; WOW!!! Why isn't all Affinity Players doing that? I haven't ever see that either and that does seem pretty HOSEY.
I mean sure; Cryptic is basically our primary out; if they have no other creatures out then we have CRUEL where they still have to SAC the Champion.
But beyond either of those; we're pretty hosed to that...
I've considered Into the Core; that used to be a great Artifact hoser back in the day...
IDK; I peg you (GURU) to be a very competent player and pilot of the Grixis Cruel deck; is it possible that the combination just caught you off guard once?
And now that you know about it; you could easily play it different and it wouldn't be so bad?
I think that's something to consider... I'd love to hear your thoughts on that?
I think into the core choice if that card picks up in popularity. I think it was mostly just some random jank that kinda got me outta nowhere because at that point damnation nor any of our removal works unless we have some Edict effect to make things easier. I also think that maybe even barter in blood could be what we start to look at if it becomes the new thing. I don't look for it to catch on though.
I also normally wouldn't debate a 3rd terminate, but I've really been feeling under more pressure against creature decks especially with the uptick of Knight of the Reliquary recently and the fact that I rarely seen my Tasigur's early enough to kinda slow them down.
I also really question the use of Suffer the Past in our burn match. I think I'm going to go down a different path because this card is so mana intensive and can be caught with one of their 8 different cards that can negate it period if we don't have a cheap answer to try and stop it. I think I'm going to try my old favorite in Homicidal Seclusion.
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
IE: I brought it in VS the Living End deck; I didn't see it and didn't need it; but it's handy if I draw it in a pinch.
I brought it in VS the Mono Black Aggro match; and it was handy as it Exiled a few of the creatures that can be played from the GY. Gain about 4 or 5 Life and stop their resiliency.
As far as Burn; yes burn has what? Skullcrack? Atarka's Command? So sure; I supposed they could be running 4 of each of those; but generally they don't. They are usually running 4 Atarka's Command; and anywhere between 0 to 2 Skullcracks. I'm not sure I've ever seen a deck running all 8 of these.
With that being said; the one area I feel we absolutely DON'T want; is Artifacts.
Enchantments might be an option simply because all they really have to destroy the Enchantment is Destructive Revelry. And generally they have 3 or 4 of those.
So the odds are still about the same as my Suffer the Past option; and depending upon the list could be a better option that the Suffer the Past.
If anyones expecting an Artifact to solve the matchup; they'll be sorely mistaken because not only do they run Destructive Revelery; but also Smash to Smithereens.
So there's usually anywhere between 5 to 8 answers that also do damage.
SO I could get behind an Enchantment.
The reason I liked Suffer the Past is because I can Snapcaster Mage it back even if they do try to stop it with an Atarka's Command or Skullcrack early.
Where if they destroy the Enchantment; we have no way to get it back really...
The problem I have though with your Enchantment choice of Homicidal Seclusion; you're tapping out for it on Turn 5.
So hopefully to get max value out of it; hopefully you have the Gurmag or Tasigur in play already to swing and gain a bunch... but with these CRUEL lists; if you're running the Gurmag/Tasigur/Tombstalker package; you're running anywhere between 2 to 3 of those guys; so you're not guaranteed to have 1 of those creatures already out when you need to cast the Seclusion. Suffer the Past doesn't require anything else to make it work...
With Suffer the Past; I can tap all the way out but leave up 1 BLUE ISLAND and gain 4 or 5 life; if they try to Skullcrack or Atarka's Command it; I cast Spell Snare; or if I leave 2 mana up cast Mana Leak or something to potentially stop it; and gain 3 to 4 life... Most times that's all we need to buy ourselves 1 or 2 more turns.
So if I was to go Enchantment; I'd want something cheaper... something I could cast around Turn 5 and protect it; something that wouldn't require another card to make it work.
The other options we talked about privately was creature options...
I really do like Murk Lurkers; and also Vampire Nighthawks; I'm interested to give Nighthawks a try too.
The thing is; it's only ever going to be a 1 OF in my side... So I think the more impactful 1 of is Suffer the Past.
Having a 1 of Nighthawk; IDK if it's that impactful in more than just 1 matchup.
A 1 of Murk Lurker? Yea no...
A 1 of Homicidal Seclusion? Meh... ok.
Thus far I've been happy with Suffer the Past; I haven't been Skullcracked or Atarka's Commanded when I've used it yet thankfully; generally I either see the Suffer early and cast it when I "NEED" a little chunk of life to get me to Turn 7 to survive 1 or 2 more turns; and just be sure I'm not being too greedy with it when I cast the first one so I can protect it. And then Snapcaster it back and cast it for bigger later.
The other thing I like about Suffer though is we really can go down the BURN path against the Burn players... Lightning Bolts; Electrolyze; Kolaghan's Command; 1 or 2 Swings with a Gurmag; and then a Lethal Suffer the Past.
Even if they Skullcrack it; the damage still gets through...
Just some thoughts; I've gone into great lengths analyzing the Burn matchup; and I haven't lost to a Burn opponent in a few weeks.
Granted; I don't have a meta filled with Burn decks; there's really only 1 or 2 of the people I play against that plays it; and it's so inconsistent and easy to break when you break it... that some weeks it doesn't do well; some weeks it wins.
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
No I agree now and I agreed then I think.
Not a big fan of Seclusion; but I didn't test it; and theoretically it's just as much theorycrafting as my GoTo card of Suffer from the Past.
Both of which have issues dealing with the same answers; cuz incidentally Skullcrack and Atarka's Command keeps Seclusion off balance too the same way that it would stop a Suffer for 1 turn.
At any rate; I think we've both agreed to move on past the Artifact being the Savior in this Match.
I'm actually going to get me a Seclusion and play test it and see how it goes for me...
I think I've justified my position on Suffer the Past; but you've also made good points for Seclusion; and we both agree; neither one of them is a guarantee.
I'm going to price a FOIL Seclusion now... HEHE
i ask cause my list plays like one tasigur and the batterskull. so for me that enchantment is used on them or one of my 4 tar pits. hmmm if we do switch to have that card would a 1 of lavaclaw reaches not be a bad idea?
which is really funny when it happens it's just so cruel.
I like the Rebuttal; but correct me if I'm wrong; Don't some of their burn spells say "Target Opponent"? And thus if that's true; wouldn't that negate the Rebuttal and make it a bit less spicy as it might initially seem?
Just curious; otherwise I do think it's a pretty sweet trick and warrants 1 of in the side... Could take the place of the Countersquall or even the Dispel from my list.
Will be interesting to find out for sure; I'm no judge either; and sometimes these little wordings trip me up but I always find out...
So it'll be good to know.
At any rate; worst case scenario; I think it's great as a 1 of replacing a Dispel or even the Countersquall in my board.
Might even be better than Dispel in general...
And it'll be even better if it doesn't get hindered by any kind of "Opponent" wording.
Edit: Relevant rules
111.2. A spell’s owner is the same as the owner of the card that represents it, unless it’s a copy. In that
case, the owner of the spell is the player under whose control it was put on the stack. A spell’s
controller is, by default, the player who put it on the stack. Every spell has a controller.
700.2f A copy of a modal spell or ability copies the mode(s) chosen for it. The controller of the
copy can’t choose a different mode. (See rule 706.10.)
706.10. To copy a spell or activated ability means to put a copy of it onto the stack; a copy of a spell
isn’t cast and a copy of an activated ability isn’t activated. A copy of a spell or ability copies both
the characteristics of the spell or ability and all decisions made for it, including modes, targets, the
value of X, and additional or alternative costs. (See rule 601, “Casting Spells.”) Choices that are
normally made on resolution are not copied. If an effect of the copy refers to objects used to pay its
costs, it uses the objects used to pay the costs of the original spell or ability. A copy of a spell is
owned by the player under whose control it was put on the stack. A copy of a spell or ability is
controlled by the player under whose control it was put on the stack. A copy of a spell is itself a
spell, even though it has no spell card associated with it. A copy of an ability is itself an ability.
706.10c Some effects copy a spell or ability and state that its controller may choose new targets for
the copy. The player may leave any number of the targets unchanged, even if those targets
would be illegal. If the player chooses to change some or all of the targets, the new targets must
be legal. Once the player has decided what the copy’s targets will be, the copy is put onto the
stack with those targets.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
Good stuff!!
So yea that could be an interesting 1 of in our Sideboard; I still couldn't see anything more than 1; maybe 2 max.
I think the Gifts Ungiven package is a cute little idea, but I believe the card can just be better used in an Esper shell. I like the idea of it in concept, but I am not sure how many real threatening piles we can make after a certain point in the game. Then again, I am not exactly the most open to new concepts because I think my deck works fairly well most of the time.
I do think a 2nd Vendilion cliqueand the 2nd Electrolyze in the main is probably a good thing though.
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas