I was thinking the same thing. That card seems like it is beyond busted.
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UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
I've analyzed the data from MrRotten's thoughts and the general shell of cruel decks, and came up with this.
this deck is a slight tweak of both delver and draw-go Grixis decks, focusing more on Cruel Ultimatum. Kudos to MrRotten for his thoughts on the board wipe spells, and Lil' Bolas for most of the sideboard ideas.
Way back when I started building this deck, I run 3 Think Twice main. As I acuirred more and more cards, I beun cutting them for more flexible spells, like Electrolyze. But the spells seem too good right now, due to Lyze losing efficiency thanks to K Command. I may go back to 2 remands if I see no results in playtest though.
Taking GrixisGuru's thoughts into consideration, I've come to believe 2 discard spells in the side are more than enough, althought im still debating on whether these spells should be Iok or Seize.
FInally, adding 2 Fulminators in the side to company a lone Salt should be enough against Tron. I feel I have an advantage against them game 1, thanks to those 2 Ghost Quarters.
Overall, Im pretty happy with this version, and im gonna give it a try this Friday. Until then, I wanna hear your feedback
I like the tweeks you've made for sure; wish you luck on Friday.
Batterskull:
While I like alot of the tweeks; I'm not going to rehash why I'm not a fan of Batterskull. You know my take; and I've heard yours; and I say if it works for you by all means play it.
Who am I to try and talk someone out of something that works for them... I'm nobody. I love Batterskull; just not IN LOVE with it right now in the current Meta; or atleast my meta.
NO Tasigur:
While I like the Tombstalker; if you're giving yourself 1 Slot for that kind of card; I would absolutely want Tasigur > Tombstalker. If you're only reserving 1 slot for that kind of spell; Tasigur absolutely does so much more. It's ALMOST as good of a beater as Tombstalker; but where Tasigur gets my nod if I had to pick 1 OR the Other; it's in those Grindy Games; or those Games where maybe you're trying to play around a Blood Moon; and you're looking for things to do till you're able to deal with the Blood Moon. Tasigur gives you just an extra utility that I admit I don't always "NEED" but it's so great to have as an OPTION just in case I do need it.
26 Lands:
I have to say; my very very very FIRST list; the one where I compared all the Top Grixis Lists over the last 6 months or so... All the Grixis Lists were Delver, Twin, and regular Control lists via Young Pyromancer, Olivia, Tasigur/Gurmag.... My list before I even posted here in this Forum/Thread...
I ran 26 lands...
Once I added 4 Serum Visions; stayed true to the formula of about 8 to 12 Cantrips; 25 lands feels really really right and good.
Now; don't get me wrong; I'm of the mindset with LANDs/Manabase that More is BEST... When in doubt; run that extra land and scale it back after you get a feel for things.
But I assure you; that's probably only the 2nd thing that we all agree on. 25 Lands seems to be the good place to be.
BUT: I say that while also considering the fact you have mainboarded 2 Ghost Quarters.
While I like Ghost Quarter; I feel it's RISKY in our Deck.
IF: I ran Ghost Quarters; I too would probably want 26 or heck even 27 Lands if I ran Mainboard Ghost Quarters.
BUT: Let's also keep in mind; in a PINCH; if you really really really need say that 3rd SWAMP to get CRUEL colors online; you can Ghost Quarter your own Land to fetch it up.
So although I think you could drop to 25; I think I totally understand your reasoning for being at 26; and because it's Ghost Quarters; I like it and think it's fine.
What I would like to try though; is having 1 or I guess 2 Ghost Quarters Main; being at 25 Lands; and see how well the 4 Serum Visions with all the Cantrips powers you through and helps you fix things up.
Could be too greedy... but yea; if it were me; I'd try it; cut 1 Land and add the 4th Serum Visions.
3 Cryptic:
I've gone back and forth on this one; many times... Sometimes I like it; most times I don't.
I keep adding it; cutting it back...
Drives me nuts... how could I be "SO DISRESPECTFUL" on such a GREAT card....
It bothers me... but definitely for me; 2 I feel is the right number.
It's something to consider... dropping down to 2 Cryptics is not a "horrible" thing...
Counter Package:
I feel this package can differ depending upon the Player; with personal preference being a big factor; while also the players Meta Game being the bigger factor.
So I have zero issue with it...
What I do think is we want about 7 or 8 Counters Total; that would be my only gripe if it was way too high or way to low.
You're at 9; I think that's right about where we want to be at, so no issues there.
Other than those few little points; some of it probably nit picky; sorry... I think it looks really good!
I hope you do well on Friday!
I'm not going to touch the Side because that to me is also very much about the Players Personal Choices; Play Styles; and also Meta Specific.
So I trust that you've done your homework; you def seem to know Modern well and your list so I'm sure it's fine.
Valid rebuttal points across the board; can't/won't argue that.
It's nice when you're debating card choices and giving constructive feedback when both sides of the arguments are valid; because then at that point I don't think either of us is wrong.
I'm intrigued with Logic Knot; I got 2 FOIL ones awhile ago; it's a card I always thought could be good.
BUT: I feel it clashes with Tasigur AND Tombstalker.
So when I gave you the feedback that if you're going for just x1 OF either of those Bigs; I understand why you would do that because I think Logic Knot would ruin it if you ran x1 or more of both.
So I like your 1 of in that Slot; still think you'll get more out of Tasigur; but I like the 1 of because of your Logic Knot choice; I feel like that's a great choice if you go Logic Knot.
One thing with me; I've always got backup decks... one of my backup plans is if I decide Tasigur and Gurmag/Tombstalker aren't needed; then I could honestly cut them from my list; which makes LOGIC KNOT hella good IMO.
Because at that point; the only card we have that wants cards in the GY is Snapcaster; so Logic Knot gets all the rest for DELVE purposes.
I have my FOIL 2; and everytime I see it in lists; I always consider it and mull it over...
But again I do think it clashes if you're running more than 1 slot of the Tasigurs/Gurmags/Tombstalkers.
So I like your direction...
I say def stick to your guns; test it out and share your feedback/report.
I'm interested in hearing your opinion on Think Twice. I love that card, but can't bring myself to run it lately.
I'm currently running Remands in its place and I have liked it so far.
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UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
I'd like to make a comment based on MrRotten's Cruel version 3.03, and please assist me if I missed anything on the thread I was away for a while.
I really like this kind of list, something like that is probably what I would play today if I was going to play Cruel Control. The thing is, it goes too close to the new Grixis no ultimatum lists, which is not bad, on the contrary. So I am wondering if it is worth trying, now that all the grixis control decks up their land numbers (22-23), to jam a Cruel Ultimatum in a Grixis control deck (and probably one in the SB for grindy MUs) instead of other win conditions. Maybe it would require some mana tweaking but wouldn't it be worth a shot?
Ym1r I would recommend going to 24 lands if you wanted to create a hybrid between Cruel Control and Grixis Control.
I do think it is worth trying, but with only 22 lands Cruel Ultimatum will be very hard to cast.
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UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
It's sometimes hard to get to 6 lands so you can Snapcaster Mage + Cryptic Command in the 22 land grixis deck. So yeah, if you wanna cast Cruel in a Delve shell, you need 24 lands.
I'd like to make a comment based on MrRotten's Cruel version 3.03, and please assist me if I missed anything on the thread I was away for a while.
I really like this kind of list, something like that is probably what I would play today if I was going to play Cruel Control. The thing is, it goes too close to the new Grixis no ultimatum lists, which is not bad, on the contrary. So I am wondering if it is worth trying, now that all the grixis control decks up their land numbers (22-23), to jam a Cruel Ultimatum in a Grixis control deck (and probably one in the SB for grindy MUs) instead of other win conditions. Maybe it would require some mana tweaking but wouldn't it be worth a shot?
Ym1r; Cruel is absolutely worth it.
Here's what I think is weak about the Grixis Control shells that are NON Cruel Based; where's their stabilizer?
If they run up against any Rogue Decks; or heck; JUND which has been gaining a ton of popularity lately; and the opponent kills their Tasigurs and Gurmags...
Uses Discard to rip Counters out of your hand; then uses Path to Exile; Maelstrom Pulse; Terminates to kill your winconditions; and just rips your hand apart... then what?
The thing I like about Cruel; it's our Wild Card in every matchup; it's the 1 card in our deck that turns the tides in any game; VS any match.
If a Cruel Resolves; our Win% drastically increases; if we resolve the 2nd; even more.
Without Cruels; I feel like the deck is simply a 1 trick pony... which is why I firmly believe I want some semblance of Tasigurs and Gurmags/Tombstalkers in my CRUEL list.
So I've developed my list to be a bit of a Hybrid of Grixis Control; but adding a few more lands and Cruels.
I've been on this plan since the beginning of my development of this deck simply because I remember playing Cruels before; back in the day when it was STD legal; it was a 1 Trick Pony.
Resolve Cruel; WIN.
In Modern; I don't think you want to be a 1 Trick Pony; because then decks can easily hate you out in Modern because there's so many tools at our disposal.
An Example: Blood Moon? Yea; we probably aren't resolving Cruels with a Blood Moon out; sure we have things we can do to deal with Blood Moon; but until we deal with it; what then?
Well I have a whole Tasigur/Tombstalker-Gurmag package; plus Vendilion Clique and Burn. I still have plenty to keep myself busy if someone sneaks a Blood Moon past me. Still plenty of other ways I can win.
Another example; people use Fulminator Mage on me; although it's probably really really bad for me; I still am able to do some things with the DELVE Tasigurs/Gurmags/Tombstalkers.
So to answer your first question; although lengthy; yes I do believe that Cruels are totally worth trying...
As for trying to jam Cruels in a Delver Deck or the 22 to 23 Land Grixis Control decks and building the hybrid going the other way... I wouldn't recommend it.
Alot of people believe that 24 lands is sufficient to run our deck; while I firmly believe we actually want 25 or 26.
I'd be interested to see a 24 land Grixis Control list like Chapin's for example; but having 1 or 2 Cruels in there for the TOP END wild card type of thing... that could be interesting for sure and "COULD" in theory work.
But anything less than 24; I wouldn't recommend it; and would really not expect much.
Something else to consider if you're planning to go the other way on the Hybrid. Taking a Grixis Control shell with approx 22 lands like Chapins; and adding a Cruel or 2.
The issue I have with doing that is you're ALL in on the Tasigur/Gurmag plan; which is not a terrible thing. They are insanely good; and knowing your TOP END is a Cruel or 2; fantastic.
But when you're all in on the Tasigur/Gurmag plan; you're running the Thought Scour package to go along with it.
With Thought Scour you're running the risk of Milling your 1 or 2 Copies of Cruel; now sure that's not a big deal as we run Snapcasters too; but I'd much rather the first Cruel be hitting and available to hit on Turn 7; not on Turn 8 via a Snapcaster Flashback.
So this is why I kind of skimped on the Tasigur/Gurmags a little bit; the Control shells are running about 5 slots for these guys; 3 Gurmags 2 Tasigurs; or something along that range... They are also running the 4 Thought Scours to go with the 4 Visions.
I cut all that out; I kept the Visions cuz they're so good; lowered my number of Tasigurs; added more Answers/Counters/Cantrips/Draw; and added a few more lands with my 2 Cruels.
That's how I got to my list...
I was running a 2/1 Split of 2 Tasigurs and 1 Gurmag; but I recently dropped it down to 1/1...
So far it's been testing fine; but if I ever go back to a 2/1 split; I'll probably do 2 Gurmags and 1 Tasigur instead going forward.
I've been playing around with Tombstalker in the Gurmag slot; and although it's decent enough; 1 CMC does seem to have pretty significant implications.... I may end up going back to Gurmag after the week's Modern events and analyze how Tombstalker performed in place of Gurmag.
Well, last night I got to run cruel again. Still no changes to my original list (I want to have a 25 game min record with the deck first so I have an idea of what's working/not working, and if that's what people are more interested in, I'll relay my findings...)
Round 1 - Naya Burn - 2-0
Game 1 - countered enough stuff to get Keranos out, then snap cryptic, Cruel Ultimaium, Snap bolt basically sealed the deal.
Game 2 - similar to game one, cept turn 6 is when I cast Keranos holding a snare up... Luckily it paid off while I was at 3 life, and Keranos didnt give me too much land that I couldnt also counter stuffs.
Round 2 - Living End - 2-0
Game 1 - Got living ended, then cast cryptic to tap dudes/draw, damantion my turn, he just proceeds to flop around.
Game 2 - Still not 100% he's not Twinning End, but I side in Rakdos Charm just the same, Proceed to win via exiling his yard.
Round 3 - Infect - 2-0
Game 1 - Opp decided to try all inning... I had the terminate.
Game 2 - Board wipes are friends, and thankfully opp couldnt dig a man land out.
Round 4 - Gixis Delver - 2-0
Game 1 - Gurmag meets mana leak on turn 2, then 1 for 1 as much as possible.... Opp DID get to remand a Cruel Ultimatium.... then roceeded to cast a asigur with no counter backup.
Game 2 - Opp made a few misplays, and I was able to win because of it.
I can finally post the data I gathered from my FNM. Before I get into any details, I wanted to say that, overall, it was a good test run for this build. I did fairly well, facing off against a wide vairety of decks.
Format was standard swiss, 4 rounds. Round 1: Jeskai Delver (1-2)
My opponent here happens to be a close friend of mine, who was testing his version of the delver as well, We both knew each other's decklists, so sideboarding was easier. Game 1 he managed to get ahead on board with Young Pyromancer and cheap spells, but I snatched a sweeper of a Serum and cleared the board. Couple of turns later, I resolved Batterskull and even managed to hit the red zone with in next turn, but
he bounced it next turn after reaping a Cryptic off the top. My tombstalker was bounced as well, and later countered, while he was slowly reducing my life with burn. In the end, he flashed back a bolt and swung with Monastery Swiftspear for the win. Game 2 I sided in both Sieges and dispels, and also 1 Rakdos Charm. He took a mulligan to 6, while I had bolt and snap in my opening 7. I took care of his early drops and resolved a Cruel on turn 8, having drawn a Ghost Quarter on turn 6. He was pretty much on top deck mode after that, and I finished him off with couple of beats with manlands. Game 3 I took a mulligan to 6, sending back a 7 with 5 lands an anger and a snap. I tapped out for Monastery Siege on turn 3, and he resolved a Young Pyro. I found a spot removal for him on turn 6, but by that time the board was filled with tokens and a swepper was nowhere to be found. Siege stalled the game a bit but I was unable to find the warth and conceeded. 0-1-0
Round 2: Elves (2-1)
This was a pretty straitforward match. Couple of things that are worth noting is that he was running at least 2 Æther Vial, and I did see some blue splash, which should be for that counterspell whose name I alwasy forget in the side. Game 1 I just bolted everything that looked threatening, and even managed to heartcart and flashback a Cruel. Game 2 I sided in 1 Rakdos Charm and the 2 Dispels just in case. He filled the board quickly but I cast a Damnation turn 5 to clear. He resolved a Collected Company on his next main phase to fill the board again. I used my remaining spot removal but he did manage to win with the Craterhoof Behemoth after hitting jackpot with another Company. Game 3 I wrathed the board twice and he was still preseting threats thanks to those Vials, but I was ready for his Behemoth, countering it with Logic Knot. I dropped a Batterskull on my next turn and won the counter was over it. The game was sealed with a nice Cruel off the top. 1-1-0
Round 3: Infect (2-0)
To be honest, this guy was really unlucky. He took a mulligan to 6 on both games, and didn't manage to draw more than 3 of his infect dudes. I used quarters and the fulminators from the side on Game 2 to take care of Inkmoth Nexus and attacked with my Tombstalker for the win on Game 1, while 2 Cruels made him conceede on Game 2. 2-1-0
Round 4: Mono U Tron (0-2)
This was a really hard matchup for me. Game 1 he got tron on turn 5 and tried to resolved Karn Liberated , but I countered it. I found a ghost quearter to temporarily dismantle him, but he assembled it again on turn 8, resolving Mindslaver I tried to destroy that thing, but he won the counter wars and finally locked me. Game 2 I brought in all artifact and land hate, and got lucky resolving a Mage on turn 3. The 2/2 slowed him down quite a bit, and we hit turn 6 with me trying to resolve a Batterskull. He countered and assembled tron on his next turn, dropping Ugin. I didn't have enough burn in had to deal with him, so I focused on eliminating his combo. Serum however revealed a Cryptic, which I left on top. Next turn he tried to resolve another mindslaver, but I countered with logic knot, using as much mana as possible. He pinged me with Ugin and passed. I bounced his walker and got rid of his tron with a ghost quarter. He failed to find his missing piece on the following turn, so I resolved a Cruel, dropping him down to 1 card in hand. He just tapped out next turn for Wurmcoil Engine and passed. After a few turn with me hitting the red zone with a Tar Pit, he found tron and attempted to resolved another Karn, but I had just enough mana for Cryptic. On my next turn, I tried to resolve Sowing Salt to win the game, but he countered it a Cryptic pf his own. Having no answer, he topdecked and resolved another Ugin. Drawing Snap on my next turn, I flashed back Cruel to get him down to 3, but was unable to find another burn spell before he used Ugin's ultimate to drop his hand on the board. 2-2-0
This was my experience. Now time for my thoughts TOMBSTALKER AND OTHER DELVE CARDS:
Delve is without doubt a powerful mechanic, and I can now see why it shines in modern. Logic Knot in particular is very strong, being able to counter stuff almost for free. Regarding MrRotten's concerns about delve cards clashing, I never found myself in that position. Thing is with control decks, the grave fills quickly, since you have to deal with all those small creatures and other spells. On the other hand, Im not sure if this deck could afford another delve card, unless you are not all in on casting dudes very cheap, like Tomstalker. This is also the reason why I think Batterskull should stick around in the Grixis shell, but only as a 1 of. I will switch it in and out with tasigur from time to time, and just keep testing that slot, but I believe it is a decent bomb.
26 LANDS:
Just a note here, the deck can now run on 25 lands, but only if I cut down the quarters. This possibly means adding another Fulminator in the side, so I will have to think on this carefully.
THINK TWICE:
The card worked for me during this FNM. But I feel it clashes with Visions. They basically do the same thing, each with its pros and cons. This was also a good time to test the lack of Remands, and I can say it did hurt a little. Cutting that land seems like a good option right now if I want to fill everything in.
LACK OF WALKER REMOVAL:
This thing has always been on the back of my mind. As grixis, we have access to all the spells that can destroy the super friends, yet we don't use them, because most of the times we target creatures, and there is Terminate for that. But we should get away with 1 slot for that kind of removal in my opinion.
Im gonna work and update my list now, and ill post the results here. Thanks for reading
I think that if you have a lot of Jund or b/g/x decks in your meta that it is completely fine to run a one of dreadbore. I really like it as an early answer to walkers.
Personally for Planeswalker Removal; I don't care much for Dreadbore simply because it's Sorcery Speed.
The reason Dreadbore is good is because it's only 2 CMC; but honestly the Walkers we would want Dreadbore against aren't the early ones anyways...
The Early walkers our Bolts/Electrolyze/Kolaghan's Commands usually are enough to do the trick if they get through the early counters.
The ones we really want the Planeswalker kill against are the TRON Walkers... IE: the ones that come down and have massive Loyalty to start out.
Like Ugin; Karn mostly...
So I think Dwarf mentioned Silumgar's Command as it provides great other ToolBox utility for our deck; could bounce a Blood Moon for example pretty easily without it being too mana intensive like a Cryptic would otherwise be.
Beyond Silumgar's Command; I like Hero's Downfall as well; because again they're both Instants.
I vote if we do get into a position where we need a Planeswalker hate; and it more then likely is no more than a 1 OF in our shells; then I say Dwarf is spot on and I tip my hat to Silumgar's Command with Hero's Downfall being the next likely choice.
Although I like Dreadbore; I don't think the 2 CMC is really that significant; and so the fact it's also got a 2nd negative going for it by being Sorcery just takes it off the table for me.
Just my opinion about the Walker hate options... for now I haven't quite gone there yet; but I have considered it a few times.
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
Well I think the big downside to Hero's Downfall is the double black could be an issue against blood moon. Also as a lot of our decks are packing less counter magic it also is a real problem if our b/g/x decks drop a Liliana of the Veil and we don't have an answer. Dreadbore is also easily cast because it is the same mana cost as terminate. Sorcery isn't any worse than a double black spell is in a deck that consistently wants to play a double red spell in anger of the Gods into a triple blue spell on turn four.
I think silumgar's command is a solid option, but it's definitely not the answer to an early walker.
Well I think the big downside to Hero's Downfall is the double black could be an issue against blood moon. Also as a lot of our decks are packing less counter magic it also is a real problem if our b/g/x decks drop a Liliana of the Veil and we don't have an answer. Dreadbore is also easily cast because it is the same mana cost as terminate. Sorcery isn't any worse than a double black spell is in a deck that consistently wants to play a double red spell in anger of the Gods into a triple blue spell on turn four.
I think silumgar's command is a solid option, but it's definitely not the answer to an early walker.
Well; my point was is that Liliana of the Veil doesn't seem like a horrible planeswalker against us, obviously if shes left unchecked she is; but that can be said about ANY planeswalker...
So what's the worst that happens...
Let's say they Up Tick; and we Kolaghan's Command it for 2 Damage; take our Turn; and maybe Bolt it? Sure we're spending 2 cards to deal with it; but we also have Mana Leaks that could easily counter it early as well.
I feel the chances are pretty good that we have any 1 to 2 of our Burn spells more often then not to deal with that.
That's why I said for the EARLY walkers; most of them can easily be dealt with via our Burn Spells.
Thus I don't put much stock into a Dreadbore at Sorcery Speed that early and also as a 1 OF.
If I am running 2 Dreadbore; then maybe; but even then I still don't think so... The better 1 of for me is either Downfall or Silumgar's Command, with me leaning more towards the Command.
I mean at the end of the day; Dreadbore isn't horrible either; I think 1 of with any of those 3 cards is pretty solid; but if it were me I'd rather a 1 of between Command or Downfall.
As of now though I still haven't really gone there yet and added any of these cards to my 75.
Well I think the big downside to Hero's Downfall is the double black could be an issue against blood moon. Also as a lot of our decks are packing less counter magic it also is a real problem if our b/g/x decks drop a Liliana of the Veil and we don't have an answer. Dreadbore is also easily cast because it is the same mana cost as terminate. Sorcery isn't any worse than a double black spell is in a deck that consistently wants to play a double red spell in anger of the Gods into a triple blue spell on turn four.
I think silumgar's command is a solid option, but it's definitely not the answer to an early walker.
Well; my point was is that Liliana of the Veil doesn't seem like a horrible planeswalker against us, obviously if shes left unchecked she is; but that can be said about ANY planeswalker...
So what's the worst that happens...
Let's say they Up Tick; and we Kolaghan's Command it for 2 Damage; take our Turn; and maybe Bolt it? Sure we're spending 2 cards to deal with it; but we also have Mana Leaks that could easily counter it early as well.
I feel the chances are pretty good that we have any 1 to 2 of our Burn spells more often then not to deal with that.
That's why I said for the EARLY walkers; most of them can easily be dealt with via our Burn Spells.
Thus I don't put much stock into a Dreadbore at Sorcery Speed that early and also as a 1 OF.
If I am running 2 Dreadbore; then maybe; but even then I still don't think so... The better 1 of for me is either Downfall or Silumgar's Command, with me leaning more towards the Command.
I mean at the end of the day; Dreadbore isn't horrible either; I think 1 of with any of those 3 cards is pretty solid; but if it were me I'd rather a 1 of between Command or Downfall.
As of now though I still haven't really gone there yet and added any of these cards to my 75.
The scenarios that you are describing are true and fine when we are on the play. I agree that we have mana leak and a few two mana spells that should keep liliana from resolving,but on the draw as a control deck we never want to spend our turn
Answering what our opponent did last turn. That is why dreadbore is good, but feels bad. We can agree that we as the control deck aim to one for one our opponent at worst until we can take over the game via cruel or through a couple two for one shots and an unanswerable threat. It just seems like we are approaching the problem wrong if we are spending two cards to deal with a liliana when we could easily dreadbore her and have some counterspell backup as early as turn 3 whether it be dispel or spell snare. Granted they aren't the best things to leave up, but it still doesn't make it all that much worse than finding room for another 3 drop in our deck. I think if we can just avoid people resolving liliana early then silumgar's command may be the next best choice for dealing with the big walkers,but I hate that it can't actually kill a big creature. Granted it can bounce one, but how far does that get us if it happened to be a Thragtusk or a Primeval Titan? I may be wrong, but I believe dreadbore isn't as bad as you guys claim it to be. I've played it in Grixis when Thundermaw Hellkite was still seeing play in uwr and it was fine... Never great but always solid. I think that we just need to see it for what it is, if it was instant it would be banned for being to powerful but even with how it is I'd say it's a solid 3.8 out of 5.
Well I think the big downside to Hero's Downfall is the double black could be an issue against blood moon. Also as a lot of our decks are packing less counter magic it also is a real problem if our b/g/x decks drop a Liliana of the Veil and we don't have an answer. Dreadbore is also easily cast because it is the same mana cost as terminate. Sorcery isn't any worse than a double black spell is in a deck that consistently wants to play a double red spell in anger of the Gods into a triple blue spell on turn four.
I think silumgar's command is a solid option, but it's definitely not the answer to an early walker.
Well; my point was is that Liliana of the Veil doesn't seem like a horrible planeswalker against us, obviously if shes left unchecked she is; but that can be said about ANY planeswalker...
So what's the worst that happens...
Let's say they Up Tick; and we Kolaghan's Command it for 2 Damage; take our Turn; and maybe Bolt it? Sure we're spending 2 cards to deal with it; but we also have Mana Leaks that could easily counter it early as well.
I feel the chances are pretty good that we have any 1 to 2 of our Burn spells more often then not to deal with that.
That's why I said for the EARLY walkers; most of them can easily be dealt with via our Burn Spells.
Thus I don't put much stock into a Dreadbore at Sorcery Speed that early and also as a 1 OF.
If I am running 2 Dreadbore; then maybe; but even then I still don't think so... The better 1 of for me is either Downfall or Silumgar's Command, with me leaning more towards the Command.
I mean at the end of the day; Dreadbore isn't horrible either; I think 1 of with any of those 3 cards is pretty solid; but if it were me I'd rather a 1 of between Command or Downfall.
As of now though I still haven't really gone there yet and added any of these cards to my 75.
The scenarios that you are describing are true and fine when we are on the play. I agree that we have mana leak and a few two mana spells that should keep liliana from resolving,but on the draw as a control deck we never want to spend our turn
Answering what our opponent did last turn. That is why dreadbore is good, but feels bad. We can agree that we as the control deck aim to one for one our opponent at worst until we can take over the game via cruel or through a couple two for one shots and an unanswerable threat. It just seems like we are approaching the problem wrong if we are spending two cards to deal with a liliana when we could easily dreadbore her and have some counterspell backup as early as turn 3 whether it be dispel or spell snare. Granted they aren't the best things to leave up, but it still doesn't make it all that much worse than finding room for another 3 drop in our deck. I think if we can just avoid people resolving liliana early then silumgar's command may be the next best choice for dealing with the big walkers,but I hate that it can't actually kill a big creature. Granted it can bounce one, but how far does that get us if it happened to be a Thragtusk or a Primeval Titan? I may be wrong, but I believe dreadbore isn't as bad as you guys claim it to be. I've played it in Grixis when Thundermaw Hellkite was still seeing play in uwr and it was fine... Never great but always solid. I think that we just need to see it for what it is, if it was instant it would be banned for being to powerful but even with how it is I'd say it's a solid 3.8 out of 5.
And this is why I chose you to colaborate with privately too. LOL
Very valid points!
Although I still think Downfall or Command are the better "1 OFs"; I def wouldn't be disappointed having Dreadbore either.
I think all 3 are fine options for sure...
Again though; I still haven't gone there yet to have any of these 3 in my 75... I think one of my lists I was going to but ultimately cut it.
I have all 3 and just would want to test it I think; cuz I haven't tested a devoted slot to that yet so I can't say 1 way or another at the end of the day.
So after testing out Logic Knot as a one of in my maindeck I'm not going to lie, the card isn't that impressive. It's fine, it's just a harder to cast mana leak most of the time. I'm considering other things for this slot... Anything I may be overlooking? Currently using the draw/go list in my signature.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
I like the tweeks you've made for sure; wish you luck on Friday.
Batterskull:
While I like alot of the tweeks; I'm not going to rehash why I'm not a fan of Batterskull. You know my take; and I've heard yours; and I say if it works for you by all means play it.
Who am I to try and talk someone out of something that works for them... I'm nobody. I love Batterskull; just not IN LOVE with it right now in the current Meta; or atleast my meta.
NO Tasigur:
While I like the Tombstalker; if you're giving yourself 1 Slot for that kind of card; I would absolutely want Tasigur > Tombstalker. If you're only reserving 1 slot for that kind of spell; Tasigur absolutely does so much more. It's ALMOST as good of a beater as Tombstalker; but where Tasigur gets my nod if I had to pick 1 OR the Other; it's in those Grindy Games; or those Games where maybe you're trying to play around a Blood Moon; and you're looking for things to do till you're able to deal with the Blood Moon. Tasigur gives you just an extra utility that I admit I don't always "NEED" but it's so great to have as an OPTION just in case I do need it.
26 Lands:
I have to say; my very very very FIRST list; the one where I compared all the Top Grixis Lists over the last 6 months or so... All the Grixis Lists were Delver, Twin, and regular Control lists via Young Pyromancer, Olivia, Tasigur/Gurmag.... My list before I even posted here in this Forum/Thread...
I ran 26 lands...
Once I added 4 Serum Visions; stayed true to the formula of about 8 to 12 Cantrips; 25 lands feels really really right and good.
Now; don't get me wrong; I'm of the mindset with LANDs/Manabase that More is BEST... When in doubt; run that extra land and scale it back after you get a feel for things.
But I assure you; that's probably only the 2nd thing that we all agree on. 25 Lands seems to be the good place to be.
BUT: I say that while also considering the fact you have mainboarded 2 Ghost Quarters.
While I like Ghost Quarter; I feel it's RISKY in our Deck.
IF: I ran Ghost Quarters; I too would probably want 26 or heck even 27 Lands if I ran Mainboard Ghost Quarters.
BUT: Let's also keep in mind; in a PINCH; if you really really really need say that 3rd SWAMP to get CRUEL colors online; you can Ghost Quarter your own Land to fetch it up.
So although I think you could drop to 25; I think I totally understand your reasoning for being at 26; and because it's Ghost Quarters; I like it and think it's fine.
What I would like to try though; is having 1 or I guess 2 Ghost Quarters Main; being at 25 Lands; and see how well the 4 Serum Visions with all the Cantrips powers you through and helps you fix things up.
Could be too greedy... but yea; if it were me; I'd try it; cut 1 Land and add the 4th Serum Visions.
3 Cryptic:
I've gone back and forth on this one; many times... Sometimes I like it; most times I don't.
I keep adding it; cutting it back...
Drives me nuts... how could I be "SO DISRESPECTFUL" on such a GREAT card....
It bothers me... but definitely for me; 2 I feel is the right number.
It's something to consider... dropping down to 2 Cryptics is not a "horrible" thing...
Counter Package:
I feel this package can differ depending upon the Player; with personal preference being a big factor; while also the players Meta Game being the bigger factor.
So I have zero issue with it...
What I do think is we want about 7 or 8 Counters Total; that would be my only gripe if it was way too high or way to low.
You're at 9; I think that's right about where we want to be at, so no issues there.
Other than those few little points; some of it probably nit picky; sorry... I think it looks really good!
I hope you do well on Friday!
I'm not going to touch the Side because that to me is also very much about the Players Personal Choices; Play Styles; and also Meta Specific.
So I trust that you've done your homework; you def seem to know Modern well and your list so I'm sure it's fine.
It's nice when you're debating card choices and giving constructive feedback when both sides of the arguments are valid; because then at that point I don't think either of us is wrong.
I'm intrigued with Logic Knot; I got 2 FOIL ones awhile ago; it's a card I always thought could be good.
BUT: I feel it clashes with Tasigur AND Tombstalker.
So when I gave you the feedback that if you're going for just x1 OF either of those Bigs; I understand why you would do that because I think Logic Knot would ruin it if you ran x1 or more of both.
So I like your 1 of in that Slot; still think you'll get more out of Tasigur; but I like the 1 of because of your Logic Knot choice; I feel like that's a great choice if you go Logic Knot.
One thing with me; I've always got backup decks... one of my backup plans is if I decide Tasigur and Gurmag/Tombstalker aren't needed; then I could honestly cut them from my list; which makes LOGIC KNOT hella good IMO.
Because at that point; the only card we have that wants cards in the GY is Snapcaster; so Logic Knot gets all the rest for DELVE purposes.
I have my FOIL 2; and everytime I see it in lists; I always consider it and mull it over...
But again I do think it clashes if you're running more than 1 slot of the Tasigurs/Gurmags/Tombstalkers.
So I like your direction...
I say def stick to your guns; test it out and share your feedback/report.
You're missing Cruels; otherwise that list doesn't belong on this Thread... lol
I'm currently running Remands in its place and I have liked it so far.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
I really like this kind of list, something like that is probably what I would play today if I was going to play Cruel Control. The thing is, it goes too close to the new Grixis no ultimatum lists, which is not bad, on the contrary. So I am wondering if it is worth trying, now that all the grixis control decks up their land numbers (22-23), to jam a Cruel Ultimatum in a Grixis control deck (and probably one in the SB for grindy MUs) instead of other win conditions. Maybe it would require some mana tweaking but wouldn't it be worth a shot?
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
I do think it is worth trying, but with only 22 lands Cruel Ultimatum will be very hard to cast.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
Ym1r; Cruel is absolutely worth it.
Here's what I think is weak about the Grixis Control shells that are NON Cruel Based; where's their stabilizer?
If they run up against any Rogue Decks; or heck; JUND which has been gaining a ton of popularity lately; and the opponent kills their Tasigurs and Gurmags...
Uses Discard to rip Counters out of your hand; then uses Path to Exile; Maelstrom Pulse; Terminates to kill your winconditions; and just rips your hand apart... then what?
The thing I like about Cruel; it's our Wild Card in every matchup; it's the 1 card in our deck that turns the tides in any game; VS any match.
If a Cruel Resolves; our Win% drastically increases; if we resolve the 2nd; even more.
Without Cruels; I feel like the deck is simply a 1 trick pony... which is why I firmly believe I want some semblance of Tasigurs and Gurmags/Tombstalkers in my CRUEL list.
So I've developed my list to be a bit of a Hybrid of Grixis Control; but adding a few more lands and Cruels.
I've been on this plan since the beginning of my development of this deck simply because I remember playing Cruels before; back in the day when it was STD legal; it was a 1 Trick Pony.
Resolve Cruel; WIN.
In Modern; I don't think you want to be a 1 Trick Pony; because then decks can easily hate you out in Modern because there's so many tools at our disposal.
An Example:
Blood Moon? Yea; we probably aren't resolving Cruels with a Blood Moon out; sure we have things we can do to deal with Blood Moon; but until we deal with it; what then?
Well I have a whole Tasigur/Tombstalker-Gurmag package; plus Vendilion Clique and Burn. I still have plenty to keep myself busy if someone sneaks a Blood Moon past me. Still plenty of other ways I can win.
Another example; people use Fulminator Mage on me; although it's probably really really bad for me; I still am able to do some things with the DELVE Tasigurs/Gurmags/Tombstalkers.
So to answer your first question; although lengthy; yes I do believe that Cruels are totally worth trying...
As for trying to jam Cruels in a Delver Deck or the 22 to 23 Land Grixis Control decks and building the hybrid going the other way... I wouldn't recommend it.
Alot of people believe that 24 lands is sufficient to run our deck; while I firmly believe we actually want 25 or 26.
I'd be interested to see a 24 land Grixis Control list like Chapin's for example; but having 1 or 2 Cruels in there for the TOP END wild card type of thing... that could be interesting for sure and "COULD" in theory work.
But anything less than 24; I wouldn't recommend it; and would really not expect much.
Something else to consider if you're planning to go the other way on the Hybrid. Taking a Grixis Control shell with approx 22 lands like Chapins; and adding a Cruel or 2.
The issue I have with doing that is you're ALL in on the Tasigur/Gurmag plan; which is not a terrible thing. They are insanely good; and knowing your TOP END is a Cruel or 2; fantastic.
But when you're all in on the Tasigur/Gurmag plan; you're running the Thought Scour package to go along with it.
With Thought Scour you're running the risk of Milling your 1 or 2 Copies of Cruel; now sure that's not a big deal as we run Snapcasters too; but I'd much rather the first Cruel be hitting and available to hit on Turn 7; not on Turn 8 via a Snapcaster Flashback.
So this is why I kind of skimped on the Tasigur/Gurmags a little bit; the Control shells are running about 5 slots for these guys; 3 Gurmags 2 Tasigurs; or something along that range... They are also running the 4 Thought Scours to go with the 4 Visions.
I cut all that out; I kept the Visions cuz they're so good; lowered my number of Tasigurs; added more Answers/Counters/Cantrips/Draw; and added a few more lands with my 2 Cruels.
That's how I got to my list...
I was running a 2/1 Split of 2 Tasigurs and 1 Gurmag; but I recently dropped it down to 1/1...
So far it's been testing fine; but if I ever go back to a 2/1 split; I'll probably do 2 Gurmags and 1 Tasigur instead going forward.
I've been playing around with Tombstalker in the Gurmag slot; and although it's decent enough; 1 CMC does seem to have pretty significant implications.... I may end up going back to Gurmag after the week's Modern events and analyze how Tombstalker performed in place of Gurmag.
Round 1 - Naya Burn - 2-0
Game 1 - countered enough stuff to get Keranos out, then snap cryptic, Cruel Ultimaium, Snap bolt basically sealed the deal.
Game 2 - similar to game one, cept turn 6 is when I cast Keranos holding a snare up... Luckily it paid off while I was at 3 life, and Keranos didnt give me too much land that I couldnt also counter stuffs.
Game 1 - Got living ended, then cast cryptic to tap dudes/draw, damantion my turn, he just proceeds to flop around.
Game 2 - Still not 100% he's not Twinning End, but I side in Rakdos Charm just the same, Proceed to win via exiling his yard.
Game 1 - Opp decided to try all inning... I had the terminate.
Game 2 - Board wipes are friends, and thankfully opp couldnt dig a man land out.
Game 2 - Opp made a few misplays, and I was able to win because of it.
Nice little 4-0.
Decks Playing:
(Win-Loss-Tie totals in FNM/Ptq/Gpt's)
Modern:
DredgeVine (10-3-0)
Latern Control (24-5-0)
Cruel Control (19-5-1)
Urza-Eggs (29-13-1)
8-Rack (13-5-0, Retired for now)
BG Loam Pox (with Rack) (15-5-1, Retired for now)
3 Land Belcher (4-2-0) Retired for good.
Artificer's Intuition Surfing
Prison Pox (8-3-0)
Solidarity (Instant High tide Storm)
Zombardment
Pauper:
Oops all Spells (2-0-0)
I think that if you have a lot of Jund or b/g/x decks in your meta that it is completely fine to run a one of dreadbore. I really like it as an early answer to walkers.
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
The reason Dreadbore is good is because it's only 2 CMC; but honestly the Walkers we would want Dreadbore against aren't the early ones anyways...
The Early walkers our Bolts/Electrolyze/Kolaghan's Commands usually are enough to do the trick if they get through the early counters.
The ones we really want the Planeswalker kill against are the TRON Walkers... IE: the ones that come down and have massive Loyalty to start out.
Like Ugin; Karn mostly...
So I think Dwarf mentioned Silumgar's Command as it provides great other ToolBox utility for our deck; could bounce a Blood Moon for example pretty easily without it being too mana intensive like a Cryptic would otherwise be.
Beyond Silumgar's Command; I like Hero's Downfall as well; because again they're both Instants.
I vote if we do get into a position where we need a Planeswalker hate; and it more then likely is no more than a 1 OF in our shells; then I say Dwarf is spot on and I tip my hat to Silumgar's Command with Hero's Downfall being the next likely choice.
Although I like Dreadbore; I don't think the 2 CMC is really that significant; and so the fact it's also got a 2nd negative going for it by being Sorcery just takes it off the table for me.
Just my opinion about the Walker hate options... for now I haven't quite gone there yet; but I have considered it a few times.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
I think silumgar's command is a solid option, but it's definitely not the answer to an early walker.
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
Well; my point was is that Liliana of the Veil doesn't seem like a horrible planeswalker against us, obviously if shes left unchecked she is; but that can be said about ANY planeswalker...
So what's the worst that happens...
Let's say they Up Tick; and we Kolaghan's Command it for 2 Damage; take our Turn; and maybe Bolt it? Sure we're spending 2 cards to deal with it; but we also have Mana Leaks that could easily counter it early as well.
I feel the chances are pretty good that we have any 1 to 2 of our Burn spells more often then not to deal with that.
That's why I said for the EARLY walkers; most of them can easily be dealt with via our Burn Spells.
Thus I don't put much stock into a Dreadbore at Sorcery Speed that early and also as a 1 OF.
If I am running 2 Dreadbore; then maybe; but even then I still don't think so... The better 1 of for me is either Downfall or Silumgar's Command, with me leaning more towards the Command.
I mean at the end of the day; Dreadbore isn't horrible either; I think 1 of with any of those 3 cards is pretty solid; but if it were me I'd rather a 1 of between Command or Downfall.
As of now though I still haven't really gone there yet and added any of these cards to my 75.
The scenarios that you are describing are true and fine when we are on the play. I agree that we have mana leak and a few two mana spells that should keep liliana from resolving,but on the draw as a control deck we never want to spend our turn
Answering what our opponent did last turn. That is why dreadbore is good, but feels bad. We can agree that we as the control deck aim to one for one our opponent at worst until we can take over the game via cruel or through a couple two for one shots and an unanswerable threat. It just seems like we are approaching the problem wrong if we are spending two cards to deal with a liliana when we could easily dreadbore her and have some counterspell backup as early as turn 3 whether it be dispel or spell snare. Granted they aren't the best things to leave up, but it still doesn't make it all that much worse than finding room for another 3 drop in our deck. I think if we can just avoid people resolving liliana early then silumgar's command may be the next best choice for dealing with the big walkers,but I hate that it can't actually kill a big creature. Granted it can bounce one, but how far does that get us if it happened to be a Thragtusk or a Primeval Titan? I may be wrong, but I believe dreadbore isn't as bad as you guys claim it to be. I've played it in Grixis when Thundermaw Hellkite was still seeing play in uwr and it was fine... Never great but always solid. I think that we just need to see it for what it is, if it was instant it would be banned for being to powerful but even with how it is I'd say it's a solid 3.8 out of 5.
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
And this is why I chose you to colaborate with privately too. LOL
Very valid points!
Although I still think Downfall or Command are the better "1 OFs"; I def wouldn't be disappointed having Dreadbore either.
I think all 3 are fine options for sure...
Again though; I still haven't gone there yet to have any of these 3 in my 75... I think one of my lists I was going to but ultimately cut it.
I have all 3 and just would want to test it I think; cuz I haven't tested a devoted slot to that yet so I can't say 1 way or another at the end of the day.
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas