Iok is there for early game discard. But, what most people overlook, is that Iok late game is just a worse gitaxian probe, with the addition of snatching a spell from your opponent's hand.
A reasonable replacement would be Serum Visions , but I prize Iok heavily for the time being. Even seize seems worse to me, due the life loss.
I see if can move them to side though, or maybe reduce them to 2.
I used to think the same way, but in our current modern meta the card loses a lot of value. I mean right now it is good against the fair decks, but the collected company decks all have eternal witness in multiples to help combat it.
We also just can never take their best spell which is collected company.
So today I had a small magical get together. Sadly, due to me drinking, I wasnt playing top notch lol
Round 1 - Ad Naus (I frigging HATE this deck...) - 1-2
Game 1 - Got land screwed, he combo'd
Game 2 - Got the Snapcaster beats for awhile, then he tried to combo and forgot to keep an extra 2 mana for Monastery Siege, since he used a spirit guide to block my snapcaster.
Game 3 - Opp combo'd off turn 4 when I went to anticipate... I hate how I had counterflux in hand too...
Round 2 - Faeries - 2-0
Game 1 - Faeries died while having 2 bitterblossoms out...
Game 2 - Creeping Tar Pit just killed them.
Round 3 - Infect - 1-2
Game 1 - Turn 3 10 infect...
Game 2 - Opp couldnt keep creaures.
Game 3 - I forgot all about wild defiance... apparently tryig to terminate it / bolt it when opp can just take the bolt, then spell pierce the terminate, then mutagenic :/
Round 4 - Mono-U Tron - 1-2
Game 1 - 3 wormcoils by turn 6 plus an academy ruins spelled my demise..
Game 2 - Got him down to 3, swung with 2 snapcasters, then before blockers (hes got a platnium angel) I try a K-command, he counters, I terminate, he counters / taps out of blue, and I Away the Angel to win
Game 3 - Couldnt find a single sideboard piece.... and Sundering Titan on turn 4 when screwed on 3 land is not good for me...
Oh well, first night I've done poorly, and to be fair... I've had a "bit" to drink lol. On the plus side though, I've managed to snag 500 Nicol Bolas sleeves for fairly cheap, so I decided to run them with Cruel Control. Hopefully he deck picks itself back up now!
Let me suggest playing a set of Think Twice and cutting main deck discard. Like you said, we play for the long game so discard is really weak game 1 for us. Think Twice is great for hitting land drops and generating card advantage.
In this meta game you really should consider running 4 Terminates. Kills everything you want to kill with no questions.
Also, if you have the time, never drop from a competitive REL tournament. The points and experience you get from playing in them is priceless.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
So since it seems no one has caught this list yet...
We have our first Grixis CRUEL List that Top 8ed a SCG IQ.
And to top it off; this list is very very close if not damn near identical to Grixis Guru's list where he had mainboard Fulminators.
EDIT: to give myself a little credit too; other than the Mainboard Fulminators in the list; it's almost identical to my "current" list too. Few minor differences; but I firmly believe my differences are good ones.
this isn't the first ever, the first in awhile yes but not the first. the bitterblossom in the side is the first time i have seen them in the 75 at all so that's new. anyone with a bitterblossom wanna test this?
This is most certainly not the first time cruel has top 8ed a bigger event(in modern), but this is the first time that a pure Grixis list has placed in a while. Most placing cruel lists were four-color in the scg circuit.
Cruel Control always had a place in modern, it is up to us to show everyone else just how Cruel we can be
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
It's a hard to deal with permanent vs. control and give you recurring blockers against anything not named Blighted Agent vs. Infect, forcing them into a position where they have to play more spells a turn so that they can kill you, leaving them open to Terminate etc.
this isn't the first ever, the first in awhile yes but not the first. the bitterblossom in the side is the first time i have seen them in the 75 at all so that's new. anyone with a bitterblossom wanna test this?
This is most certainly not the first time cruel has top 8ed a bigger event(in modern), but this is the first time that a pure Grixis list has placed in a while. Most placing cruel lists were four-color in the scg circuit.
Cruel Control always had a place in modern, it is up to us to show everyone else just how Cruel we can be
First of all I realize it used to be really good awhile back ago...
Second; most of you keep saying that Cruel isn't Tier 1 yet I been saying that all it's going to take is 1 Top 8...
I never said it was the "FIRST EVER"; it's definitely the "First" Cruel list in quite a long time while most of you believe that it'll never be a Tier 1 deck. #HookedOnPhonics
You guys always nit pick at my replies... love it.
Third; Bolas you're saying Cruel "Always" had a place in Modern? Yet you're also one of the ones that claims it'll never be Tier 1... so that by the very definition means that no; Cruel hasn't always had a place in Modern.
In fact; quite a few people believe that Cruel doesn't have a place in the Current meta game in Modern and it'll never be Tier 1.
I've disagreed with that from the start and have always said all its going to take is 1 list to Top 8...
Low and behold; we have 1 that has Top 8ed; and it's almost identical to Grixis Guru's and pretty dang close to mine...
As far as Vampire Nighthawk in the side when I analyzed the BURN matchup; this was one of the cards that I discussed with Grixis Guru during our private collaborations.
I think it's a BETTER option than any Enchantment or Artifact because BURN players run anywhere between 6 to 8 Art/Ench hate spells in Smash To Smithereens or Destructive Revelry.
So when I built a big list of NON Art/NON Ench options to help us in the Burn matchup; this was on the list.
Sure; they run a ton of removal via burn to kill the Nighthawk; but that's 1 less burn spell hitting your face; but with Kolaghan's Commands and Cruels; we can get the Nighthawk back and replay it. Nighthawk in my theorizing runs away with the game if it lives for even just 1 Attack.
In this guys list that Top 8ed the IQ; he has 3 Kolaghan's Commands; so yea I think it is a pretty fine option.
I have opted for Suffer the Past only because I had 1 Slot I could devote beyond my Counter Package to the Burn Matchup and it's been a great option too. But I would love to try and find x2 slots for 2 Nighthawks to go along with the Counter Package.
As for Bitterblossom I've seen alot of Grixis Control variations running it in the side; and I've had a chance to see it in Action on Twitch with people play testing Grixis Control lists. I gotta admit; not a fan at all.
Personally I think the streamer brought it in on some of the bad matchups like Jund; they play Maelstrom Pulse and can easily remove it; Abrupt Decay also...
VS Control decks like Grixis Control; or Jeskai or Tron decks; I think it could be good. The Grixis Players don't really have a way to deal with it; but the Tron players generally do.
So I don't know; I'd much rather see Counter magic in there VS Control Matchups instead of a card that can be played around and force us to slowly tick our life total down or be easily removed.
MrRotten main problem in your deck is you have too little card draw. Its the reason im not willing to cut either my lyzes or my remands.
As for me though, I took GrixisGuru's thoughts into consideration and in the ned, I find that Iok is still viable, but not so much. So what I thought is:
-3 Iok +3 Serum Visions.
Since I now got sufficient control over my draws: -1 Smother -1 Electrolyze +2 K Command
and finally, i've come to realize tech edge is just too slow for the current meta, so -2 Tech edge +2 Quarter
I still don't like clique that much, but I'll keep using it for now. As for the side, im still pondering whether I should replace the Salts with Mages, and maybe I should cut Threads aswell. But the card still has its uses.
Finally, i've started looking at viable walkers for the deck ( aside from its master ) and Im gonna test Lil' Bolas's Chandra and see how it goes.
Lets make a Cruel meta guys
The interesting thing is; I actually have more Card "Draw" than you do in your latest list...
Yet I don't have enough? Interesting...
Honestly; I think you guys just like to nit pick at me because I'll defend my list and my choices...
I run Mulldrifter and Jace in my list; along with about 9 to 11 Cantrips depending upon the version I play.
Please before you try to do like the rest do and nit pick about me or my list; get the facts... thanks.
As for your list specifically; where have you been the last 10 or so pages?
Not sure I've seen you here before??
But ok; yea let's make a Cruel meta.. lol
The Batterskulls are Terrible depending upon the meta you're playing; we've all pretty much I think agreed about that finally.
So I wouldn't expect them to do much with such a big up tick with Burn and Kolaghan's Commands seeing play unless you don't see that in your meta.
Also; Jund has seen an up tick in the bigger meta game so Maelstrom Pulse and Abrupt Decay are out in heavy numbers too.
Other than the Batterskulls; I think your list for the most part is fine.
I'd caution the x3 Mana Leak and x3 Spell Snares though; depending upon your Meta; those could be pretty ugly to get depending upon the matchups you're facing.
Guys, I wouldn't go crazy about that IQ finish; a quick trip over to google maps followed by a quick city record building plans search tells me that that IQ couldn't possibly have had more than 30 folks show up (and that's pushing it) which means 2-1-1 could have put him in the top 8. Regular IQ's are not a super significant finish--Super IQ's and Elite IQ's have much greater regular participation and more rounds, so those results say a lot more, but for an IQ that small, it's as easy as playing against some budget brew round one, burning out a storm player round two after a quick piece of countermagic or two, losing to a tier one deck, and ID'ing into top 8, then losing in top 8.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
MrRotten main problem in your deck is you have too little card draw. Its the reason im not willing to cut either my lyzes or my remands.
As for me though, I took GrixisGuru's thoughts into consideration and in the ned, I find that Iok is still viable, but not so much. So what I thought is:
-3 Iok +3 Serum Visions.
Since I now got sufficient control over my draws: -1 Smother -1 Electrolyze +2 K Command
and finally, i've come to realize tech edge is just too slow for the current meta, so -2 Tech edge +2 Quarter
I still don't like clique that much, but I'll keep using it for now. As for the side, im still pondering whether I should replace the Salts with Mages, and maybe I should cut Threads aswell. But the card still has its uses.
Finally, i've started looking at viable walkers for the deck ( aside from its master ) and Im gonna test Lil' Bolas's Chandra and see how it goes.
Lets make a Cruel meta guys
The interesting thing is; I actually have more Card "Draw" than you do in your latest list...
Yet I don't have enough? Interesting...
Honestly; I think you guys just like to nit pick at me because I'll defend my list and my choices...
I run Mulldrifter and Jace in my list; along with about 9 to 11 Cantrips depending upon the version I play.
Please before you try to do like the rest do and nit pick about me or my list; get the facts... thanks.
As for your list specifically; where have you been the last 10 or so pages?
Not sure I've seen you here before??
But ok; yea let's make a Cruel meta.. lol
The Batterskulls are Terrible depending upon the meta you're playing; we've all pretty much I think agreed about that finally.
So I wouldn't expect them to do much with such a big up tick with Burn and Kolaghan's Commands seeing play unless you don't see that in your meta.
Other than the Batterskulls; I think your list for the most part is fine.
I'd caution the x3 Mana Leak and x3 Spell Snares though; depending upon your Meta; those could be pretty ugly to get depending upon the matchups you're facing.
I've spread out my Counter Package a bit more...
Good luck.
First of all, I would like to apologize, because my thoughts were about DoULikeMyUlt1m4tuM's deck, and somehow I thought of your decklist while posting it. But I get the feeling you do not like constructive feedback anyways.
My list can be found about 10-12 pages back, before the talk about molten rain over Fulminator.
As for Spell Snares and Mana Leaks, I can cut 1 Leak and add another useful counter, but snares are just too good to cut, having so many targets in the current meta.
Finally, Batterskull is the most efficient finisher in the deck, unless you expect to win by casting Cruel over and over every game. I could move one of them into the side, but, like you, I stand behind my choices.
See that's where you're wrong sir; I don't mind constructive criticism when it's warranted and based on factual information.
Your criticism was that my list wasn't running enough Draw; when actually my list runs more draw then most of the lists here.
Because on top of the 9 to 11 Cantrips; I'm running Jace and Mulldrifter in my list to go along with the Cruels.
Where most people don't run any of that and rely solely on the Cantrips and Cruels.
So your criticism was not taken well because it has nothing to do with my list at all; so you're right; didn't take it well at all cuz it doesn't help me.
As for your list 10 to 12 pages back; sorry I must of missed it because of the zillion pages of the Molten Rain VS Fulminator debate that went on... my apologies.
As for the Mana Leak/Spell Snares; keep them; because I could make a case depending upon what's heavy in a certain meta that they're solid to have.
If you deal with a ton of Burn decks for example; or Zoo Decks; or Abzan CoCo decks; I'd say keep them. Those 2 counter spells are great in those matchups.
As for Batterskull; that's fine; if you think it's the "Most Efficient Finisher" in your deck; then that tells me in the meta you're playing there's not a ton of the hate that most others experience.
I have Batterskulls; just pulled them from my list because of the hate I deal with... so neither one of us is wrong.
I for one like to build beyond my meta though and look for better universal things. Nothing wrong with doing that or not doing that... fair enough.
Guys, I wouldn't go crazy about that IQ finish; a quick trip over to google maps followed by a quick city record building plans search tells me that that IQ couldn't possibly have had more than 30 folks show up (and that's pushing it) which means 2-1-1 could have put him in the top 8. Regular IQ's are not a super significant finish--Super IQ's and Elite IQ's have much greater regular participation and more rounds, so those results say a lot more, but for an IQ that small, it's as easy as playing against some budget brew round one, burning out a storm player round two after a quick piece of countermagic or two, losing to a tier one deck, and ID'ing into top 8, then losing in top 8.
Nope; totally agree with this.
When I said it's the first Cruel list to top 8...
I was making the point that it's the first Cruel list in a very long time to Top 8.
I never said it's the "First Ever" to top 8... and although I was clearly excited; you are spot on that you still have to take a IQ's results with a grain of salt.
Gotta consider the matchups; the meta; and how many people were there... how many rounds; etc..
But fact of the matter is; for the most part the meta will have alot of the similar decks that we all have to face and deal with...
So although we should take the result with a grain of salt; I do think my point is still valid that we could take something away from this and draw a conclusion that Cruel Control is a viable Finisher in Modern; and although many believe it'll never be Tier 1; I still think it can be.
When I say that Cruel always had a place in modern I meant that in the historical sense. If you look at extended/modern the decks are usually shells of old standard hits. So someone like me who played Cruel in standard will want to play it in modern.
I admit I was WRONG when I said Cruel can never be tier 1. I was probably just mad at the deck at the time.
I think we all value your contributions to this thread MrRotten, I'll try not to be some nitpicking in the future.
I have to agree on Bitterblossom card seems bad for us. Vampire Nighthawk eats a bolt, so that is one less bolt going to our face, which is nice.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
I have to agree on Bitterblossom card seems bad for us. Vampire Nighthawk eats a bolt, so that is one less bolt going to our face, which is nice.
Agree on Bitterblossom; seeing it in practice with various Grixis Control streamers; I'm not sure I'm sold.
I suppose it could get under Counter magic against like Blue/X Tron; and I suppose it could work VS GR Tron...
And honestly; in the Grixis Control shells where they aren't jamming Cruels like our crazy butts; they don't really have any way to re-coup the life lost like WE do with Cruels later.
But yea; VS Jund = Maelstrom Pulse / Abrupt Decay
VS other Grixis Control NON Cruel matchups; I think it could be pretty good as a way to apply preasure.
VS Delver decks; I like it as creating Chump Blockers Early; and applying pressure after we've dealt with their Delvers.
So IDK; the more I think about it; it's worth a TEST with our Cruel lists... I don't like it in the Non Cruel Control lists; but in our Cruel lists I think it's worth a look.
As for Nighthawks; I'm totally fine if my Burn opponent puts a Bolt on it.... because that's 1 less Bolt we have to deal with; and when we Kolaghan Command Nighthawk back and re-play it; and they have to waste another Bolt? That's now 6 damage we've saved.
I'm a fan of Nighthawks; but I still think I'd rather my Suffer from the Past because I can bring it in VS other decks that like to use their GY while also gaining me some life in the Burn Matchup; and it can also be a finisher in others.
I do like the Nighthawk option though; in private with Grixis Guru this was one of the options I liked out of the full list I listed in our discussion.
Now, like you , I try to design my decks to be as flexible as possible, thus the feeling I didn't have enough reach. In my meta, batterskull receives hate only against my best friend, who plays the good old Jeskai Control. But I always thought Batterskull is the most diverse bomb for Grixis decks. I used to run Wurmcoils in their place but it just dies so easily, if not exiled. I don't like to Tasigur because personally I think he is a little overrated, but, looking at your decklist , Im thinking of trying out Keranos. He seems good enough in my current build, and synergizes well with Serum Visions.
So only issue remaining is my side. Will need to work on that.
I've actually pulled Keranos from my 75... not sure if it's right or wrong yet; I enjoyed having it; but I like the Flexibility of my Turn 5 play more instead of tapping out for Keranos.
IE: Keeping a Cryptic Up and Delving for Tasigur/Gurmag/Tombstalker; or Evoking a Mulldrifter to draw 2 and leaving Counter Magic Up.
So I have dropped Keranos for this week to try some diff thigns out.
As for Tasigur; I'd say TRY IT before you knock it.
I'm guilty of this myself; so it's nothing personal I mean by it... I hated Serum Visions and tried a bunch of things in that slot before I finally tried Serum Visions; now I couldn't ever drop Visions; it's really good for us and CRUEL.
So try Tasigur; try the Gurmag... they are fantastic.
They are good at closing games out; but even more if you resolve the Tasigur with counter backup; then he can start to take a Grindy Game and start creating advantages with his ability to give us a leg up in a grindy game.
Here's where my current list is at this week; I admit I'm trying a few slight tweeks for the sake of seeing how it plays out...
KERANOS:
Now; the reason I pulled Keranos is again simply because I want more Flexibility with my turn 5. I want something that is impacting the game sooner rather than later... Keranos on Turn 5 doesn't yield you any reward till Turn 6; and let's be honest... On Turn 6; if you hit a SPELL; it's only 3 Damage. Doesn't really help us curve to CRUEL. If we hit a Land; sure then we draw the Land and an additional card; which does help us curve to Turn 7 Cruel. To me; that's the path of victory; curving to Turn 7 or 8 Cruel; everything else should support that and or help setup the finish. I also don't feel like Keranos really helps us VS any matchup; he does provide a clock; and does provide support to our path to victory; but I think this could really be almost anything and it would help us more VS more.
CLIQUE:
I've re-added this back to my 60 simply because I feel like this helps me VS More matchups than not.
I'm very comfortable with the Burn and Zoo matchups; I'm getting more comfortable with the CoCo matchups...
I didn't cut anything that helps me stay comfortable with those matchups; but I cut 3 cards from my previous list...
Keranos was 1; the 2nd Jace was another... Clique helps me in the matchups I felt weak to; IE: Twin; Tron; Amulet Bloom; Abzan CoCo Combo decks.
Keranos doesn't do that... a 2nd Jace is pretty bad if you already have the 1st one.
Thus the change...
DAMNATION & ANGER:
This is another new addition to my mainboard; in private Grixis Guru finally got me convinced... it's needed.
VS the CoCo decks and the Elf Decks; absolutely...
Now; the problem is... do we want 2 Damnations? 2 Angers?
I personally love the 1/1 split... I think VS More matchups; Angers are more important simply because of the EXILE clause.
But then there are some situations where Damnations; more specifically the "Can't be regenerated" clause is better.
Either way; I don't want to be drawing more than 1 of either of these; ever...
VS the CoCo Abzan lists; or Elf Lists; easy.. Bring in the 2nd Anger with the 2 Sprays and even the Sudden Death; and you have yourself a great plan VS those decks.
Those are the key changes to my last known list I posted on the Forums.
Prior to making these slight tweeks.
VS Burn; 3 and 0.
VS Elves; 4 and 0.
VS Affinity; 2 and 1.
VS Bogles; 1 and 0.
I haven't played Tron ina while; have never played against Amulet Bloom; and haven't played the Abzan CoCo in any event.
On the side; I'm:
VS Twin; 0 and 2
VS Abzan CoCo; 1 and 2 --> I still chalk this up to me learning the match though; easily should of been 2 and 1.
So I've made the adjustments; and I'm ready to go again this week and see how things go.
With that; there was 1 other key change to my list.
GURMAG VS TOMBSTALKER --> With my list; I don't go all in on Tasigur or Gurmag; never really have... At most I was 2/1 Split; 2 Tasigur and 1 Gurmag; or 2 Gurmag and 1 Tasigur.
With our Cruel lists; we aren't running the FULL ON Thought Scour package and aren't expecting to be playing Tasigurs/Gurmags on Turn 2 like the Grixis Control lists that are picking up alot of HYPE that Chapin Piloted.
So I felt if I'm at a 1/1 Split; then perhaps I could get away with replacing Gurmag with Tombstalker as I believe Tombstalker is the better 1 OF than Gurmag is.
I give kudos to DoULikeMyUlt1m4tuM; in one of his earlier lists he ran Tombstalker; and I was quite interested in giving it a TRY.
I'm there now; trying it out; and so far in Goldfishing and some minor low level testing; I still get Tombstalker out on Turn 4 or 5 with Counter Backup; and his FLYING has proven to be pretty key.
So I'm interested in giving it a test run on Thursday for the first time officially and see how things go.
I appologize as well, i did not realize i was nitpicking. I just thought the way the statement was worded made it seem like you didn't know the deck had been in the tier 1.5 listings when they still had it till we fell down into competitive deck creation due to lack of topping. i apologize for that.
on a more deck related note anyone else run the teachings build of cruel?
it's more reactive so we have an easier time beating creature decks like twin but i have a harder time beating burn. though this might be fixed when i get to play against them with 3 monastary seige in the side.
i rarely if ever do it exactly on turn four, it usually end up using it turn like 6 not to have counter back up but more or less just cause i don't need to use it exactly on turn four.
i do see your point though, turn four it is deffinately not what i wanna do anyway unless the opponent is tapped out, then i just go get a cryptic.
I had a Mystical Teachings list I was playing with earlier this week, but I decided it was not my style.
I think the teachings list will get much stronger as WOTC keeps designing with modern in mind.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
I had a Mystical Teachings list I was playing with earlier this week, but I decided it was not my style.
I think the teachings list will get much stronger as WOTC keeps designing with modern in mind.
Very well said!! I don't know if they have officially said this; but it sure as heck does seem to me that the new sets are dripping with cards that have a clear cut impact on the other formats more so than even STD.
I find it interesting cuz in previous past history; it hasn't been so clear cut.
I do think this is definitely a great observation which makes the Teachings statement very valid and true.
There was an article by Sam Stoddard stating that Khans of Tarkir and all future sets are designed with modern in mind. Although they do not test for modern hence the Treasure Cruise fiasco.
I am waiting for someone to break Day's Undoing lol.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I used to think the same way, but in our current modern meta the card loses a lot of value. I mean right now it is good against the fair decks, but the collected company decks all have eternal witness in multiples to help combat it.
We also just can never take their best spell which is collected company.
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
Round 1 - Ad Naus (I frigging HATE this deck...) - 1-2
Game 2 - Got the Snapcaster beats for awhile, then he tried to combo and forgot to keep an extra 2 mana for Monastery Siege, since he used a spirit guide to block my snapcaster.
Game 3 - Opp combo'd off turn 4 when I went to anticipate... I hate how I had counterflux in hand too...
Game 2 - Creeping Tar Pit just killed them.
Round 3 - Infect - 1-2
Game 2 - Opp couldnt keep creaures.
Game 3 - I forgot all about wild defiance... apparently tryig to terminate it / bolt it when opp can just take the bolt, then spell pierce the terminate, then mutagenic :/
Round 4 - Mono-U Tron - 1-2
Game 2 - Got him down to 3, swung with 2 snapcasters, then before blockers (hes got a platnium angel) I try a K-command, he counters, I terminate, he counters / taps out of blue, and I Away the Angel to win
Game 3 - Couldnt find a single sideboard piece.... and Sundering Titan on turn 4 when screwed on 3 land is not good for me...
Oh well, first night I've done poorly, and to be fair... I've had a "bit" to drink lol. On the plus side though, I've managed to snag 500 Nicol Bolas sleeves for fairly cheap, so I decided to run them with Cruel Control. Hopefully he deck picks itself back up now!
Decks Playing:
(Win-Loss-Tie totals in FNM/Ptq/Gpt's)
Modern:
DredgeVine (10-3-0)
Latern Control (24-5-0)
Cruel Control (19-5-1)
Urza-Eggs (29-13-1)
8-Rack (13-5-0, Retired for now)
BG Loam Pox (with Rack) (15-5-1, Retired for now)
3 Land Belcher (4-2-0) Retired for good.
Artificer's Intuition Surfing
Prison Pox (8-3-0)
Solidarity (Instant High tide Storm)
Zombardment
Pauper:
Oops all Spells (2-0-0)
Let me suggest playing a set of Think Twice and cutting main deck discard. Like you said, we play for the long game so discard is really weak game 1 for us. Think Twice is great for hitting land drops and generating card advantage.
In this meta game you really should consider running 4 Terminates. Kills everything you want to kill with no questions.
Also, if you have the time, never drop from a competitive REL tournament. The points and experience you get from playing in them is priceless.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
We have our first Grixis CRUEL List that Top 8ed a SCG IQ.
And to top it off; this list is very very close if not damn near identical to Grixis Guru's list where he had mainboard Fulminators.
EDIT: to give myself a little credit too; other than the Mainboard Fulminators in the list; it's almost identical to my "current" list too. Few minor differences; but I firmly believe my differences are good ones.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=86683
What's most impressive; this is the first sign that a CRUEL list can top 8 a big event and be successful.
The other list was a Magic Online daily.... quite a big jump up if you ask me.
I think this is the beginning of a great future for Cruel Control; I been playing my list alot and feeling really good about Cruels.
I think we'll start to see that it does have a place in modern and it can be Tier 1.
#IpredictedThis
Cruel Control always had a place in modern, it is up to us to show everyone else just how Cruel we can be
MrRotten what do you think about the Vampire Nighthawk and Bitterblossom?
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
It's a hard to deal with permanent vs. control and give you recurring blockers against anything not named Blighted Agent vs. Infect, forcing them into a position where they have to play more spells a turn so that they can kill you, leaving them open to Terminate etc.
Wow guys really?
First of all I realize it used to be really good awhile back ago...
Second; most of you keep saying that Cruel isn't Tier 1 yet I been saying that all it's going to take is 1 Top 8...
I never said it was the "FIRST EVER"; it's definitely the "First" Cruel list in quite a long time while most of you believe that it'll never be a Tier 1 deck. #HookedOnPhonics
You guys always nit pick at my replies... love it.
Third; Bolas you're saying Cruel "Always" had a place in Modern? Yet you're also one of the ones that claims it'll never be Tier 1... so that by the very definition means that no; Cruel hasn't always had a place in Modern.
In fact; quite a few people believe that Cruel doesn't have a place in the Current meta game in Modern and it'll never be Tier 1.
I've disagreed with that from the start and have always said all its going to take is 1 list to Top 8...
Low and behold; we have 1 that has Top 8ed; and it's almost identical to Grixis Guru's and pretty dang close to mine...
As far as Vampire Nighthawk in the side when I analyzed the BURN matchup; this was one of the cards that I discussed with Grixis Guru during our private collaborations.
I think it's a BETTER option than any Enchantment or Artifact because BURN players run anywhere between 6 to 8 Art/Ench hate spells in Smash To Smithereens or Destructive Revelry.
So when I built a big list of NON Art/NON Ench options to help us in the Burn matchup; this was on the list.
Sure; they run a ton of removal via burn to kill the Nighthawk; but that's 1 less burn spell hitting your face; but with Kolaghan's Commands and Cruels; we can get the Nighthawk back and replay it. Nighthawk in my theorizing runs away with the game if it lives for even just 1 Attack.
In this guys list that Top 8ed the IQ; he has 3 Kolaghan's Commands; so yea I think it is a pretty fine option.
I have opted for Suffer the Past only because I had 1 Slot I could devote beyond my Counter Package to the Burn Matchup and it's been a great option too. But I would love to try and find x2 slots for 2 Nighthawks to go along with the Counter Package.
As for Bitterblossom I've seen alot of Grixis Control variations running it in the side; and I've had a chance to see it in Action on Twitch with people play testing Grixis Control lists. I gotta admit; not a fan at all.
Personally I think the streamer brought it in on some of the bad matchups like Jund; they play Maelstrom Pulse and can easily remove it; Abrupt Decay also...
VS Control decks like Grixis Control; or Jeskai or Tron decks; I think it could be good. The Grixis Players don't really have a way to deal with it; but the Tron players generally do.
So I don't know; I'd much rather see Counter magic in there VS Control Matchups instead of a card that can be played around and force us to slowly tick our life total down or be easily removed.
...might be just me
The interesting thing is; I actually have more Card "Draw" than you do in your latest list...
Yet I don't have enough? Interesting...
Honestly; I think you guys just like to nit pick at me because I'll defend my list and my choices...
I run Mulldrifter and Jace in my list; along with about 9 to 11 Cantrips depending upon the version I play.
Please before you try to do like the rest do and nit pick about me or my list; get the facts... thanks.
As for your list specifically; where have you been the last 10 or so pages?
Not sure I've seen you here before??
But ok; yea let's make a Cruel meta.. lol
The Batterskulls are Terrible depending upon the meta you're playing; we've all pretty much I think agreed about that finally.
So I wouldn't expect them to do much with such a big up tick with Burn and Kolaghan's Commands seeing play unless you don't see that in your meta.
Also; Jund has seen an up tick in the bigger meta game so Maelstrom Pulse and Abrupt Decay are out in heavy numbers too.
Other than the Batterskulls; I think your list for the most part is fine.
I'd caution the x3 Mana Leak and x3 Spell Snares though; depending upon your Meta; those could be pretty ugly to get depending upon the matchups you're facing.
I've spread out my Counter Package a bit more...
Good luck.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
See that's where you're wrong sir; I don't mind constructive criticism when it's warranted and based on factual information.
Your criticism was that my list wasn't running enough Draw; when actually my list runs more draw then most of the lists here.
Because on top of the 9 to 11 Cantrips; I'm running Jace and Mulldrifter in my list to go along with the Cruels.
Where most people don't run any of that and rely solely on the Cantrips and Cruels.
So your criticism was not taken well because it has nothing to do with my list at all; so you're right; didn't take it well at all cuz it doesn't help me.
As for your list 10 to 12 pages back; sorry I must of missed it because of the zillion pages of the Molten Rain VS Fulminator debate that went on... my apologies.
As for the Mana Leak/Spell Snares; keep them; because I could make a case depending upon what's heavy in a certain meta that they're solid to have.
If you deal with a ton of Burn decks for example; or Zoo Decks; or Abzan CoCo decks; I'd say keep them. Those 2 counter spells are great in those matchups.
As for Batterskull; that's fine; if you think it's the "Most Efficient Finisher" in your deck; then that tells me in the meta you're playing there's not a ton of the hate that most others experience.
I have Batterskulls; just pulled them from my list because of the hate I deal with... so neither one of us is wrong.
I for one like to build beyond my meta though and look for better universal things. Nothing wrong with doing that or not doing that... fair enough.
Nope; totally agree with this.
When I said it's the first Cruel list to top 8...
I was making the point that it's the first Cruel list in a very long time to Top 8.
I never said it's the "First Ever" to top 8... and although I was clearly excited; you are spot on that you still have to take a IQ's results with a grain of salt.
Gotta consider the matchups; the meta; and how many people were there... how many rounds; etc..
But fact of the matter is; for the most part the meta will have alot of the similar decks that we all have to face and deal with...
So although we should take the result with a grain of salt; I do think my point is still valid that we could take something away from this and draw a conclusion that Cruel Control is a viable Finisher in Modern; and although many believe it'll never be Tier 1; I still think it can be.
When I say that Cruel always had a place in modern I meant that in the historical sense. If you look at extended/modern the decks are usually shells of old standard hits. So someone like me who played Cruel in standard will want to play it in modern.
I admit I was WRONG when I said Cruel can never be tier 1. I was probably just mad at the deck at the time.
I think we all value your contributions to this thread MrRotten, I'll try not to be some nitpicking in the future.
I have to agree on Bitterblossom card seems bad for us. Vampire Nighthawk eats a bolt, so that is one less bolt going to our face, which is nice.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
Agree on Bitterblossom; seeing it in practice with various Grixis Control streamers; I'm not sure I'm sold.
I suppose it could get under Counter magic against like Blue/X Tron; and I suppose it could work VS GR Tron...
And honestly; in the Grixis Control shells where they aren't jamming Cruels like our crazy butts; they don't really have any way to re-coup the life lost like WE do with Cruels later.
But yea; VS Jund = Maelstrom Pulse / Abrupt Decay
VS other Grixis Control NON Cruel matchups; I think it could be pretty good as a way to apply preasure.
VS Delver decks; I like it as creating Chump Blockers Early; and applying pressure after we've dealt with their Delvers.
So IDK; the more I think about it; it's worth a TEST with our Cruel lists... I don't like it in the Non Cruel Control lists; but in our Cruel lists I think it's worth a look.
As for Nighthawks; I'm totally fine if my Burn opponent puts a Bolt on it.... because that's 1 less Bolt we have to deal with; and when we Kolaghan Command Nighthawk back and re-play it; and they have to waste another Bolt? That's now 6 damage we've saved.
I'm a fan of Nighthawks; but I still think I'd rather my Suffer from the Past because I can bring it in VS other decks that like to use their GY while also gaining me some life in the Burn Matchup; and it can also be a finisher in others.
I do like the Nighthawk option though; in private with Grixis Guru this was one of the options I liked out of the full list I listed in our discussion.
I've actually pulled Keranos from my 75... not sure if it's right or wrong yet; I enjoyed having it; but I like the Flexibility of my Turn 5 play more instead of tapping out for Keranos.
IE: Keeping a Cryptic Up and Delving for Tasigur/Gurmag/Tombstalker; or Evoking a Mulldrifter to draw 2 and leaving Counter Magic Up.
So I have dropped Keranos for this week to try some diff thigns out.
As for Tasigur; I'd say TRY IT before you knock it.
I'm guilty of this myself; so it's nothing personal I mean by it... I hated Serum Visions and tried a bunch of things in that slot before I finally tried Serum Visions; now I couldn't ever drop Visions; it's really good for us and CRUEL.
So try Tasigur; try the Gurmag... they are fantastic.
They are good at closing games out; but even more if you resolve the Tasigur with counter backup; then he can start to take a Grindy Game and start creating advantages with his ability to give us a leg up in a grindy game.
Here's where my current list is at this week; I admit I'm trying a few slight tweeks for the sake of seeing how it plays out...
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Tasigur, The Golden Fang
1 Tombstalker
2 Mulldrifter
Spells: 26
2 Cruel Ultimatum
1 Damnation
1 Anger of the Gods
3 Terminate
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Electrolyze
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Cryptic Command
2 Mana Leak
1 Dispel
2 Spell Snare
1 Shadow of Doubt
4 Serum Visions
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
Lands: 25
2 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
2 Blood Crypt
2 Sulfur Falls
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Island
3 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Dispel
2 Flashfreeze
1 Countersquall
1 Suffer the Past
1 Sowing Salt
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Magma Spray
1 Sudden Death
KERANOS:
Now; the reason I pulled Keranos is again simply because I want more Flexibility with my turn 5. I want something that is impacting the game sooner rather than later... Keranos on Turn 5 doesn't yield you any reward till Turn 6; and let's be honest... On Turn 6; if you hit a SPELL; it's only 3 Damage. Doesn't really help us curve to CRUEL. If we hit a Land; sure then we draw the Land and an additional card; which does help us curve to Turn 7 Cruel. To me; that's the path of victory; curving to Turn 7 or 8 Cruel; everything else should support that and or help setup the finish. I also don't feel like Keranos really helps us VS any matchup; he does provide a clock; and does provide support to our path to victory; but I think this could really be almost anything and it would help us more VS more.
CLIQUE:
I've re-added this back to my 60 simply because I feel like this helps me VS More matchups than not.
I'm very comfortable with the Burn and Zoo matchups; I'm getting more comfortable with the CoCo matchups...
I didn't cut anything that helps me stay comfortable with those matchups; but I cut 3 cards from my previous list...
Keranos was 1; the 2nd Jace was another... Clique helps me in the matchups I felt weak to; IE: Twin; Tron; Amulet Bloom; Abzan CoCo Combo decks.
Keranos doesn't do that... a 2nd Jace is pretty bad if you already have the 1st one.
Thus the change...
DAMNATION & ANGER:
This is another new addition to my mainboard; in private Grixis Guru finally got me convinced... it's needed.
VS the CoCo decks and the Elf Decks; absolutely...
Now; the problem is... do we want 2 Damnations? 2 Angers?
I personally love the 1/1 split... I think VS More matchups; Angers are more important simply because of the EXILE clause.
But then there are some situations where Damnations; more specifically the "Can't be regenerated" clause is better.
Either way; I don't want to be drawing more than 1 of either of these; ever...
VS the CoCo Abzan lists; or Elf Lists; easy.. Bring in the 2nd Anger with the 2 Sprays and even the Sudden Death; and you have yourself a great plan VS those decks.
Those are the key changes to my last known list I posted on the Forums.
Prior to making these slight tweeks.
VS Burn; 3 and 0.
VS Elves; 4 and 0.
VS Affinity; 2 and 1.
VS Bogles; 1 and 0.
I haven't played Tron ina while; have never played against Amulet Bloom; and haven't played the Abzan CoCo in any event.
On the side; I'm:
VS Twin; 0 and 2
VS Abzan CoCo; 1 and 2 --> I still chalk this up to me learning the match though; easily should of been 2 and 1.
So I've made the adjustments; and I'm ready to go again this week and see how things go.
With that; there was 1 other key change to my list.
GURMAG VS TOMBSTALKER --> With my list; I don't go all in on Tasigur or Gurmag; never really have... At most I was 2/1 Split; 2 Tasigur and 1 Gurmag; or 2 Gurmag and 1 Tasigur.
With our Cruel lists; we aren't running the FULL ON Thought Scour package and aren't expecting to be playing Tasigurs/Gurmags on Turn 2 like the Grixis Control lists that are picking up alot of HYPE that Chapin Piloted.
So I felt if I'm at a 1/1 Split; then perhaps I could get away with replacing Gurmag with Tombstalker as I believe Tombstalker is the better 1 OF than Gurmag is.
I give kudos to DoULikeMyUlt1m4tuM; in one of his earlier lists he ran Tombstalker; and I was quite interested in giving it a TRY.
I'm there now; trying it out; and so far in Goldfishing and some minor low level testing; I still get Tombstalker out on Turn 4 or 5 with Counter Backup; and his FLYING has proven to be pretty key.
So I'm interested in giving it a test run on Thursday for the first time officially and see how things go.
on a more deck related note anyone else run the teachings build of cruel?
it's more reactive so we have an easier time beating creature decks like twin but i have a harder time beating burn. though this might be fixed when i get to play against them with 3 monastary seige in the side.
i do see your point though, turn four it is deffinately not what i wanna do anyway unless the opponent is tapped out, then i just go get a cryptic.
I think the teachings list will get much stronger as WOTC keeps designing with modern in mind.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
Very well said!! I don't know if they have officially said this; but it sure as heck does seem to me that the new sets are dripping with cards that have a clear cut impact on the other formats more so than even STD.
I find it interesting cuz in previous past history; it hasn't been so clear cut.
I do think this is definitely a great observation which makes the Teachings statement very valid and true.
I am waiting for someone to break Day's Undoing lol.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas