the only issue for me i had with 2 damage discard was that a lot of times when those are the modes I could use most profitably they seemed very weak. I would have to wait a lot of turns with this card in my hand to get anything relevant with the discard making it a late game card, the 2 damage is best when dealing with a threat unless it kills the opponent which is rare, the issue with this is that the threats that have 2 toughness are either rare or early game creatures.
So if you think about that for a moment theres a problem. You have this spell that if you don't have a creature in your yard (not uncommon in low creature decks) or you don't have an opponent playing artifacts (also not that uncommon) and lets say they play an early 2 toughness threat you are going to want to fire off that kolaghan command on it and make them discard a card, but if its early in the game its very likely all your going to get is a land out of their hand. that feels pretty poop when this scenario plays out because you also want to shoot the creature thats beating you up in the early game. Thats why I just like 1 in a list that has very low creature count.
Disregarding semantics, Chapin said he had some ideas for improvement concerning the Collected Companies match-ups.
You can understand leaving out a wrath effect if you just expect to play tron/amulet/burn.
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Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
I think relic, night of souls' betrayal, anger of the gods, and even izzet staticaster are all good against CoCo. Mostly because they rely on eternal witness for card advantage mostly so if you can suppress their gy with a relic of progenitus or make their witness instantly die when it comes into play with something like izzet staticaster or night of souls' betrayal then you can fight their card advantage quite a bit with those things. anger also just helps sweet away everything and not persist.
when they cast CoCo having the -1 toughness effects can make some of their targets dead as they come into play (it also makes your electrolyzes at their most powerful, and trust me when electrolyze is at its most powerful it can be utterly disgusting), either that or ineffectual since they are small creatures to start, and -1 on their power can be drastic as well. (especially coupled with a Jace +1 effect). Also in my experience they can't really get a qasali pridemage to kill the NoSB that reliably because the moment NoSB comes down it kills a load of mana creatures and therefore it drastically reduces their ability to chord for the pridemage so they have to naturally hit it off their deck or with the CoCo, those odds aren't that great so it really slows them down as well which is why I like it so much. So even if they manage to do that, they've traded their pridemage away for the NoSB, but the damage has already been done, and then traded with a card as well.
playing this version of this deck. . Have opened a ton of MM2 and khans and just happened to be very close go building this control deck so went with this.
First thing I noticed is the absence of snapcaster, creeping tar pit, and inquisition of kozilek.. I looked at other lists this guy has put up, and they're not not there due to not owning them. Curious as to why they wouldn't be included. I mean I'm happy to not play them since they're like $80 atm and i don't have any ;/.
Are there any cards that are good for this deck that i should look into getting that aren't over $20?
You will most likely lose if you try to 1 for 1 them, so the cards above help manage the board.
Played against a CoCo deck on Wednesday and Anger of the Gods into Damnation into Snapcaster target Anger of the Gods was too much for him to overcome. Game 2 I lost because I saw no sweepers and it is hard to use removal on three Kitchen Finks
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Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
Joking aside you should take out cards like Spell Snare, Logic Knot, Inquisition of Kozilek (If you are on the draw) and maybe a couple of Mana Leaks on the draw. On the play the proactive plan is fine, but on the draw it will not work as well. Topdecking a mana leak or discard spell is not a great feeling.
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
I saw someone post their thoughts on sideboarding for the CoCo in their article on channel fireball. He sided into some dispels and vendilion cliques and he explained his thoughts:
"The Vendilion Clique + Dispel package may look a bit weird, but Collected Company is their best card by such a substantial margin that it is important to have a really efficient answer to it. [...] Vendilion Clique is pretty good as a flying win condition, but it also prevents them from building up a hand of lots of Collected Companies/Witnesses to overload your counterspells. Clique on end step (with Dispel or Deprive up) will force them to either go for it or lose a great card, and let you use your counterspell mana efficiently and on your terms."
I thought this was interesting, I could definitely see keeping these cards in if you have some weak cards to cut especially in that matchup :).
I actually sided in my Countersqualls on Wednesday when I played against CoCo with the idea that shutting down Chord and Collected Company is worth it. I also boarded in my Keranos which won the game for me by taking out his board one piece at a time.
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Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
I saw someone post their thoughts on sideboarding for the CoCo in their article on channel fireball. He sided into some dispels and vendilion cliques and he explained his thoughts:
"The Vendilion Clique + Dispel package may look a bit weird, but Collected Company is their best card by such a substantial margin that it is important to have a really efficient answer to it. [...] Vendilion Clique is pretty good as a flying win condition, but it also prevents them from building up a hand of lots of Collected Companies/Witnesses to overload your counterspells. Clique on end step (with Dispel or Deprive up) will force them to either go for it or lose a great card, and let you use your counterspell mana efficiently and on your terms."
I thought this was interesting, I could definitely see keeping these cards in if you have some weak cards to cut especially in that matchup :).
I have 1 Mainboard Dispel in my current list; and 1 Side.
And I too have said that Dispel VS CoCo is pretty good; I also bring in my x2 Flashfreeze out of the Side with the Countersquall.
I basically side out some numbers of the Narrow Counters and bring in these and keep all my removal VS them.
You pluck away at their Combo Pieces; but protect VS CoCo to make sure that it doesn't resolve.
Then Sweep with Counterspell backup so they can't reset.
Anger of the Gods is the better Sweeper in this matchup but Damnation is "O.K"
I also have x2 Magma Sprays in my side too.
I do fairly well I think VS CoCo; without any of the side I feel the match is pretty close already.
But I think my side plan helps greatly.
EDIT: And this is all without Vendilion Clique. I feel like with Magma Sprays/Anger of the Gods and the Counters; Clique isn't needed.
I have also pulled Clique out of the 75. It is an awesome card, but I cut it for the fourth Snapcaster.
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Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
i have little to no problem with creature based decks other than fish, i never see any removal during those matches. like literally i get one terminate and all my counter magic. other than that consume the meek just wrecks coco for me, given the fact i can tutor for it and its important to stop me from dying its one of my first targets for teachings if i have one
i have never sb in them actually, never had a need to. usually i just repeal the melira when they try it then consume when they attack, anothrer way is to kill viscera seer when they activate him the first time or with the persist trigger on the stack. voices are a bit of a problem due to the token left behind but spell snare usually gets those out of the way for me.
or when they end up with a token afterwards it is usually a 1/1 and dies to an electrolyze
edit: i never said i didnt have a problem with noone. just creature based decks. my list is weak to tron, merfolk(i think this might just be bad luck but i have only played against it 3 times), and burn.
affinity is like 50/50 grind fest. i usually die to a topdecked cranial plating.
i haven't played against jund yet
twin decks we are in favor of beating
bogles so far beats me due to me only having 3 ways to remove them in the form of consume, and devour flesh in the main, and tribute in the sb
i havent faced zoo yet either but that match up looks to be in our favor, ill get back to you on that when i get the chance.
if i came off that i had problems against noone sorry didnt measn it that way, just my meta isn't as diverse as some. i don't really have to worry about tron, one person plays it and he shows up rarely.
i mainly see burn, affinity, twin, occasionally CoCo, bogles, and merfolk.
from what i can see of your list you have 2 terminates and a far//away to stop the combo at instant speed that requires 3 or less mana. im not counting counter magic in this. and i am looking at things that kill/remove exarch. pestermite is easier to kill so we don't need to worry about it as much, exarch is the problem. if we include counter magic and multiple spells then that number goes up.
i don't know about others but i play 7 spells that can remove an exarch, not counting counter magic and multiples. 9 if you count jace ticking up one as well since that will make all the exarch's that are attacking 0.
Alright so after being Convinced by Mr. Rotten I decided to jam some Serum Visions in my deck and play some modern, because it is quickly becoming my favorite format...
Here is my current Draw-Go List...It has been awesome against Collected Company all day and has around a 45/55 burn match...which I think could be improved, but the main issue n that match is whether or not the resolve Eidolon of the Great Revel. If I can counter this I have a much easier time against them...
I'm debating wether it should be Mulldrifter/Keranos, or Angler in the Main deck.
Im also debating if the Logic Knot should be a dispel, mana leak, or spell snare or remain a Logic Knot.Other than that I think I really like the list the way it is and I have had good test results across the board in matches so far...
List looks great! I like main-decking Keranos, but mulldrifter with Kolaghan's Command is value town lol.
Keep the Logic Knot.
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Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
Well I have recently been up and down with Mulldrifter and have even recently cut it from most of my lists, but we came to the conclusion that he fits niely in a lot of different scenarios. I mean a Divination that can become a dude with flying is fairly Relevant and can provide immediate cards to hand over something like Keranos, who will eventually win if you can untap with him and manage to protect him.
As of right now Logic Knot is my test slot. If it performs well that's cool if not I will change it to something else...like anothercounterspell or a Big dude like a Tombstalker or hell maybe even throw my Demonic Rising back in for the fun of it. Realistically it should robably be a Snapcaster Mage but I really hate running 4 of anything even if it is the best blue creature ever printed.
I dont like Rakdos at all. But your list is really similiar to the mine . What do you think about iok? Had you never Think about put out those ?
And for other all , specially grixisguru, what do you Think about serumVision ???
I think Serum Visions is a card that I used to hate, but it is just necessary to play in the deck. I mean it let's you keep land light hands, and still be okay with the scry 2. It helps us really find Cruel when we want it... And it let's us look into the deck a little faster to find sideboard cards in games 2 and 3. I also recently cut Inquisition of Kozilek because everytime I'd cast it anytime past turn 3 or later I'd be looking at maybe one card I could take...ao I decided I would run more counterspells instead and it has worked out great so far.
So if you think about that for a moment theres a problem. You have this spell that if you don't have a creature in your yard (not uncommon in low creature decks) or you don't have an opponent playing artifacts (also not that uncommon) and lets say they play an early 2 toughness threat you are going to want to fire off that kolaghan command on it and make them discard a card, but if its early in the game its very likely all your going to get is a land out of their hand. that feels pretty poop when this scenario plays out because you also want to shoot the creature thats beating you up in the early game. Thats why I just like 1 in a list that has very low creature count.
You can understand leaving out a wrath effect if you just expect to play tron/amulet/burn.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
when they cast CoCo having the -1 toughness effects can make some of their targets dead as they come into play (it also makes your electrolyzes at their most powerful, and trust me when electrolyze is at its most powerful it can be utterly disgusting), either that or ineffectual since they are small creatures to start, and -1 on their power can be drastic as well. (especially coupled with a Jace +1 effect). Also in my experience they can't really get a qasali pridemage to kill the NoSB that reliably because the moment NoSB comes down it kills a load of mana creatures and therefore it drastically reduces their ability to chord for the pridemage so they have to naturally hit it off their deck or with the CoCo, those odds aren't that great so it really slows them down as well which is why I like it so much. So even if they manage to do that, they've traded their pridemage away for the NoSB, but the damage has already been done, and then traded with a card as well.
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-cruel-control-20340#paper
playing this version of this deck. . Have opened a ton of MM2 and khans and just happened to be very close go building this control deck so went with this.
First thing I noticed is the absence of snapcaster, creeping tar pit, and inquisition of kozilek.. I looked at other lists this guy has put up, and they're not not there due to not owning them. Curious as to why they wouldn't be included. I mean I'm happy to not play them since they're like $80 atm and i don't have any ;/.
Are there any cards that are good for this deck that i should look into getting that aren't over $20?
You will most likely lose if you try to 1 for 1 them, so the cards above help manage the board.
Played against a CoCo deck on Wednesday and Anger of the Gods into Damnation into Snapcaster target Anger of the Gods was too much for him to overcome. Game 2 I lost because I saw no sweepers and it is hard to use removal on three Kitchen Finks
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
Side in: Good Cards
Joking aside you should take out cards like Spell Snare, Logic Knot, Inquisition of Kozilek (If you are on the draw) and maybe a couple of Mana Leaks on the draw. On the play the proactive plan is fine, but on the draw it will not work as well. Topdecking a mana leak or discard spell is not a great feeling.
Hibernation seems good. I'm currently testing Devastation Tide.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
"The Vendilion Clique + Dispel package may look a bit weird, but Collected Company is their best card by such a substantial margin that it is important to have a really efficient answer to it. [...] Vendilion Clique is pretty good as a flying win condition, but it also prevents them from building up a hand of lots of Collected Companies/Witnesses to overload your counterspells. Clique on end step (with Dispel or Deprive up) will force them to either go for it or lose a great card, and let you use your counterspell mana efficiently and on your terms."
I thought this was interesting, I could definitely see keeping these cards in if you have some weak cards to cut especially in that matchup :).
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
I have 1 Mainboard Dispel in my current list; and 1 Side.
And I too have said that Dispel VS CoCo is pretty good; I also bring in my x2 Flashfreeze out of the Side with the Countersquall.
I basically side out some numbers of the Narrow Counters and bring in these and keep all my removal VS them.
You pluck away at their Combo Pieces; but protect VS CoCo to make sure that it doesn't resolve.
Then Sweep with Counterspell backup so they can't reset.
Anger of the Gods is the better Sweeper in this matchup but Damnation is "O.K"
I also have x2 Magma Sprays in my side too.
I do fairly well I think VS CoCo; without any of the side I feel the match is pretty close already.
But I think my side plan helps greatly.
EDIT: And this is all without Vendilion Clique. I feel like with Magma Sprays/Anger of the Gods and the Counters; Clique isn't needed.
I've actually pulled Clique from my 75.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
or when they end up with a token afterwards it is usually a 1/1 and dies to an electrolyze
edit: i never said i didnt have a problem with noone. just creature based decks. my list is weak to tron, merfolk(i think this might just be bad luck but i have only played against it 3 times), and burn.
affinity is like 50/50 grind fest. i usually die to a topdecked cranial plating.
i haven't played against jund yet
twin decks we are in favor of beating
bogles so far beats me due to me only having 3 ways to remove them in the form of consume, and devour flesh in the main, and tribute in the sb
i havent faced zoo yet either but that match up looks to be in our favor, ill get back to you on that when i get the chance.
if i came off that i had problems against noone sorry didnt measn it that way, just my meta isn't as diverse as some. i don't really have to worry about tron, one person plays it and he shows up rarely.
i mainly see burn, affinity, twin, occasionally CoCo, bogles, and merfolk.
i don't know about others but i play 7 spells that can remove an exarch, not counting counter magic and multiples. 9 if you count jace ticking up one as well since that will make all the exarch's that are attacking 0.
Here is my current Draw-Go List...It has been awesome against Collected Company all day and has around a 45/55 burn match...which I think could be improved, but the main issue n that match is whether or not the resolve Eidolon of the Great Revel. If I can counter this I have a much easier time against them...
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Sunken Ruins
2 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
Creatures - 7
1 Mulldrifter
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, The Golden Fang
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
Spells - 27
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Cruel Ultimatum
3 Cryptic Command
1 Damnation
2 Electrolyze
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Logic Knot
2 Mana Leak
4 Serum Visions
1 Shadow of Doubt
2 Spell Snare
2 Terminate
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Dispel
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Flashfreeze
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Rakdos Charm
1 Spellskite
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
I'm debating wether it should be Mulldrifter/Keranos, or Angler in the Main deck.
Im also debating if the Logic Knot should be a dispel, mana leak, or spell snare or remain a Logic Knot.Other than that I think I really like the list the way it is and I have had good test results across the board in matches so far...
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
Keep the Logic Knot.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
As of right now Logic Knot is my test slot. If it performs well that's cool if not I will change it to something else...like anothercounterspell or a Big dude like a Tombstalker or hell maybe even throw my Demonic Rising back in for the fun of it. Realistically it should robably be a Snapcaster Mage but I really hate running 4 of anything even if it is the best blue creature ever printed.
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
I think Serum Visions is a card that I used to hate, but it is just necessary to play in the deck. I mean it let's you keep land light hands, and still be okay with the scry 2. It helps us really find Cruel when we want it... And it let's us look into the deck a little faster to find sideboard cards in games 2 and 3. I also recently cut Inquisition of Kozilek because everytime I'd cast it anytime past turn 3 or later I'd be looking at maybe one card I could take...ao I decided I would run more counterspells instead and it has worked out great so far.
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas