Here is something to think about, what is the correct number of Cryptic Commands? I have personally ran either 2 or 4 in my lists.
I am currently running four and like that, but I would like to know what other people think.
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Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
I think that with Twin being the standard that it is and with Bloom Titan still around the correct number should probably be 4. I think a 4 of our best counterspell in the deck is actually just needed at the moment. I think with the sheer amount of inevitability that we gain from having 1-2 in our hand gives us that it makes us a favorite to win the long game.
a reason to run less is because in counterfights they are clunky as all heck. If you have like 2-3 in hand you run a high risk of being bottlenecked on mana on an important fight, its why people sometimes go all the way up to 2 dispel from sideboard. Dispel is incredibly efficient against an opponent who has a ton of cryptics. If thats not a concern you can max out on cryptics.
The unknown spot could be another copy of Electrolyze. If you want 4 Mana Leak, cut all of them and run Rune Snag. This adds late game power.
Give that Jace a spin and let us know what you think.
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Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
1)I promise to myself that I dont change the list until sunday ( i will play another pPTQ ).
2)I putted out a Ghost Quarter, I tryed around 300 starting hands. and a couple of this let me to do so much mulligans more :(.
3)I like all your lists, but I couldnt be confidant without 1xDamnation 1xAnger of the Gods and 1xEngineered Explosives ( I think this card is totally into the meta.) , while around totally of us playing with 0/1 Mass removal maindeck... so this could be only my problem.
4)Now explained massRemovals , there are imho only 5 slots on we can discuss : 4° Mana Leak , Izzet Charm , Logic Knot, Shadow of Doubt and 1 fckgLOLdrawSlot.
On first and second , there are only because I think that snare isnt so efficient , too many time was a deadCard in my hand in my playtest, I wouldnt return playing it for now.
How I wrote somedays ago I saw that my deck perfoming very well when I could counter 2/3 threats in first 5 Turns, So I would to give a chance to Knot. Cuz imho with 8 fetch 3 iok 4 bolt, has good chance to counter turn 2 too(like a mana leak) but it will be much interesting late game.[For sure chaining Cryptic as a good thing and it can travel us into lateGame/winGame , but 4x are too heavy imho]
Nothing to say on Shadow of Doubt, cantrip that working so well against CoCo,Tron and bloom , archetypes that are really explosive since a month.
5)For sure I made my early game better, now I have 8 counterspells (9 with izzet) and 3 discards. I think our late is alredy great. So want talking about mid game, unfortunatly I have only 2 slots for midBombs: Zeus and BSkull. So I need to know if a planeswalker can help me , because usually them help mid/late game.And no one talked about this Jace, the Living Guildpact , prolly I will testing it soon.
6)Last slot (and also Shadow of Doubt slot) must be reserve for an Advantage Card. But those cards dont exist in this format. Atm I have a Steam Augury / Second Sight but first one do only 2x1 much times (only advantage is that cards like snapC and Kolaghan can work around it) . And the second do only quality, sometimes will be good also manipulate target library. but fetches are everywhre :(.In end are both cards of *****.
I m really sad because with 2/3 slots for a GOOD AdvantageCard the deck will be really competetive, without it I'm still feeling how I miss something.
edit: 2x Dispel are ILLEGAL in the sb,those give us a little chance against twin and are beatufil against burn too.
It seems as if the recent Grixis lists have been cutting Electrolyze for Kolaghan's command...but I a not 100% sold on its value vs. Certain match ups. I think electrolyze is one of better cards against affinity and infect both. Most of their dudes are 1/1 and taking out a couple with a well timed electrolyze is still as good as it ever was...not to mention it replaces itself. I think izzet charm is fine, but is it really what we are looking for vs. Most decks? I mean it isn't a hard counter and it doesn't necessarily draw us a card is a one of remand out of the question? or maybecut it and the leaks for the Rune Snags that Lil Bolas was referring to?
I notice you have a Draw-Go style of Cruel now, have you done any testing with it? Curious as your thoughts.. .and I'm glad I corrupted someone else to trying Silumgar's Command haha
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Make sure you bleed the fine print.
Decks Playing:
(Win-Loss-Tie totals in FNM/Ptq/Gpt's)
Modern:
DredgeVine (10-3-0)
Latern Control (24-5-0)
Cruel Control (19-5-1)
Urza-Eggs (29-13-1)
8-Rack (13-5-0, Retired for now)
BG Loam Pox (with Rack) (15-5-1, Retired for now)
3 Land Belcher (4-2-0) Retired for good.
...and I'm glad I corrupted someone else to trying Silumgar's Command haha
Yea we've been discussing it; and I gotta admit; I'm coming around to it as well.
It's easier to get the BOUNCE out of it than Cryptic in a situation where we want/need to bounce Blood Moon; but it also has some much needed Planeswalker Hate if one slips through our Permission Package.
Of all the Planeswalker Hate; I think this is one of the ones that is up there and should be strongly considered.
I'm not talking about the Cheaper Walkers; I'm talking about the big bad ugly ones that are tough to kill with Burn when they resolve... UGIN/KARN.
Silumgar Command I think could really have a home in Modern; so I'm becoming convinced myself.
To take that a step further; you make alot of great cases for your list and card choices; I leave no stone unturned; especially about a deck I'm passionate about.
So I appreciate your perspective and feedback that you bring to this thread.
I notice you have a Draw-Go style of Cruel now, have you done any testing with it? Curious as your thoughts.. .and I'm glad I corrupted someone else to trying Silumgar's Command haha
It is basically the version of Cruel Control I played before I added Liliana of the veil got added to my deck...I then added Tasigur in Place of one of the mana leaks and one Dreadbore. I also replaced the Remand with a Logic Knot to help make Tasigur a little better at what we are returning to our hand. I think it would be more a more accepted list than my other one and when I get a chance to get home to get my other cards I will test it.
I have been testing Silumgar's Command and it seems like a good card to include in the 75.
Played a modern event last night and I have come to the conclusion that we do not need that silly Dragon's Claw to beat burn.
I beat burn with Dispels and Countersqualls, so I think countermagic is the path to take against them.
I also tested a single Witchbane Orb that I resolved against my burn opponent that had him cursing himself.
After last night I strongly believe that 4 Cryptic Command is correct for my list with all the aggro. That may seem counter intuitive, but using the fog mode gave me enough time to find a wrath and reset the board.
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Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
I have been testing Silumgar's Command and it seems like a good card to include in the 75.
Played a modern event last night and I have come to the conclusion that we do not need that silly Dragon's Claw to beat burn.
I beat burn with Dispels and Countersqualls, so I think countermagic is the path to take against them.
I also tested a single Witchbane Orb that I resolved against my burn opponent that had him cursing himself.
After last night I strongly believe that 4 Cryptic Command is correct for my list with all the aggro. That may seem counter intuitive, but using the fog mode gave me enough time to find a wrath and reset the board.
I made this case a few pages back but it seems if I make a case; it's only because a Pro said it or something and no one really listens or takes me seriously; which is fine...
I know I have a lack of experience in the format; but one thing I do pride myself on is understanding how decks beat me; and understand the best ways or appropriate reasonable ways to attack them to prevent them from beating us.
I'm pretty good with Meta Gaming...
My first match that I studied when I sleeved up my Cruel Control list was Burn; I said it awhile ago that Artifacts/Enchantments are NOT the way to beat Burn.
I said it before any pro said it; but since certain people enjoy the fact that I also like to reference pros; Chapin just wrote an article about his Grixis Control list and finishing 9th at GP:C...
My finding awhile back ago was that Burn decks run anywhere between 5 to 8 "Destroy Enchantment/Artifact Deal Some Damage cards".
I said tapping out for Turn 5 Batterskull just plays right into their hands... tapping out for Turn 6 Wurmcoil Engine plays right into their hands.
If I did give a slight nod to an Artifact that "COULD" in theory get the job done; it would be devoting like 3 slots to Dragon's Claw.
Simply because Dragon's Claw comes down as early as Turn 2; and if you run more than one your chances of getting one to stick are pretty good.
But that's 3 Slots... 3 precious slots; for 1 matchup... I don't like it.
I hated that solution to the problem; I've been saying its all about the Counterspells. Dispel; Flashfreeze/Countersquall.
I also run a 1 of Suffer the Past; because although our Counters certainly help; it's still a close game around Turn 6 or 7; if we don't curve out to Turn 7 Cruel; we are pretty close to death and 1 mistake at mishandling a resource or tapping out taking any kind of chance could cost us...
So I run a 1 of Suffer the Past as a way to help just in case...
So yea; I been saying it for awhile now... Welcome aboard.
The match I'm currently studying is TRON/XX matches... Blue Tron; GR Tron; sure they are vastly different decks; but they still rely on the same weakness; their Mana Base. Successfully neutralize that; and both decks drop down to our level and become much more manageable.
Currently we all disagree about the proper way to attack Tron Decks; but that's ok... I like my way.
I take you seriously MrRotten, you are passionate about Cruel Control. That means you are a fine upstanding gentleman (well maybe gentleman is not the correct term for us Cruel players)
I've always been against using life gaining artifacts as a way to beat burn, but thought it was necessary. Batterskull is not really for the burn matchup, it is for midrange matchups. Does batterskull happen to be good against burn? You bet, but he is not in the sideboard for that purpose.
On MODO burn is so prevalent that the life gaining artifacts are actually ok, but they do have drawbacks. One is they are so narrow and pretty useless against other match-ups. The biggest drawback to using things like Dragon's Claw is that Snapcaster Mage can't flash it back. Snaps and counters against burn is a lot better to me than using Spellskite or Dragon's Claw.
The best way to attack tron is hard counters and disrupting their mana.
Chapin's list is not very tuned at all, which he admitted. Running 21 lands, 4 Cryptics and no sweepers is not very smart in a meta with Collected Company. Who the heck runs Slay?
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
so has everybody moved off of the teachings side of creul control? the list that doyoulikemyultimatum posted could play one, at least as a test slot.
on a related note, i run a teachings version. i have to find space for k command but its definately going in somewhere.
deck does very well, the only real match i have trouble with is burn, but i almost beat him till he topdecked a 4 point burn. he had only one left in the deck, any other spell would have let me live. came across a puresteel paladin storm deck that tried winning with a living lore. now that deck looks fun but its entirely to easy to stop for creul control.
I take you seriously MrRotten, you are passionate about Cruel Control. That means you are a fine upstanding gentleman (well maybe gentleman is not the correct term for us Cruel players)
I've always been against using life gaining artifacts as a way to beat burn, but thought it was necessary. Batterskull is not really for the burn matchup, it is for midrange matchups. Does batterskull happen to be good against burn? You bet, but he is not in the sideboard for that purpose.
On MODO burn is so prevalent that the life gaining artifacts are actually ok, but they do have drawbacks. One is they are so narrow and pretty useless against other match-ups. The biggest drawback to using things like Dragon's Claw is that Snapcaster Mage can't flash it back. Snaps and counters against burn is a lot better to me than using Spellskite or Dragon's Claw.
The best way to attack tron is hard counters and disrupting their mana.
Chapin's list is not very tuned at all, which he admitted. Running 21 lands, 4 Cryptics and no sweepers is not very smart in a meta with Collected Company. Who the heck runs Slay?
Of all the things you could say, you say that Chapin's list is untuned? I feel like this is very wrong considering he got 9th at a 2700 person tournament. The only thing he was really missing in his side was sweepers and the deck is as Grixis as they come. Granted we are on completely different plans as far as what our decks are designed to do as he wants to Turbo out Delve guys and draw more spells than his opponent over the course of a match which he is able to do by running 8 dedicated cantrips not counting things like the singleton shadow of doubt, remand or electrolyze. We are a control deck and don't pack that much draw. This also lets him skimp on lands because his curve topper is Crytic Command because you never pay more than 3 for the delve guys in his list.
On the Topic of Slay...I agree that it seems a little random, but realistically it is for specific matches and probably has a lot more uses than you would think in a heavy collected company/Jund meta...not to mention Various Wild Nactal decks.
I have given realistic thought of abandoning Cruel altogether and just playing his list because it functions much better against the meta than what we are doing, but let's face the facts...Cruel Ultimatum makes your opponent not want to play magic anymore after it is cast on him and that's way more fun to me.
so has everybody moved off of the teachings side of creul control? the list that doyoulikemyultimatum posted could play one, at least as a test slot.
on a related note, i run a teachings version. i have to find space for k command but its definately going in somewhere.
deck does very well, the only real match i have trouble with is burn, but i almost beat him till he topdecked a 4 point burn. he had only one left in the deck, any other spell would have let me live. came across a puresteel paladin storm deck that tried winning with a living lore. now that deck looks fun but its entirely to easy to stop for creul control.
I think most of us have washed that idea off to the side. I used to run it in my main, but after dropping my instant speed wraths from the main and my Teferi from the board I got rid of it too. How many Teachings and How many Targets for teachings do you run out of curiosity?
You have SCG premium? If you do he literally says his list was not tuned correctly citing his only loses being to collected company decks.
So I am very right considering I repeated what the man himself had to say about his deck.
Said he wanted an extra land and a pair of sweepers.
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Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
i am already planning on taking out the academy ruins, ee, and crypt. 2 monastary seige and k command are going in their place. i also have one fulminator mage to go with the command. i see thats picked up a bit of popularity lately. now the problem is getting k command into the main.
edit: 28 by my count, 26 if you don't count teachings itself.
You have SCG premium? If you do he literally says his list was not tuned correctly citing his only loses being to collected company decks.
So I am very right considering I repeated what the man himself had to say about his deck.
Said he wanted an extra land and a pair of sweepers.
I think what GrixisGuru is saying; Chapin never admitted or said those words exactly in his article...
I've read it a few times; and I don't recall him saying anything to the tune of "My list wasn't tuned.."
Where Chapin admitted fault was he didn't bring enough to counteract what CoCo decks were doing.
He is 0-13 VS CoCo Decks and admitted the need for some kind of Sweeper of either Damnation or Angers; or a combination of the 2.
I'm going to re-read it again; don't think he admitted that his list wasn't Tuned though... Finishing 9th with an Untuned list if he did say that; wow... Kudos to him.
It was Tuned; it was tuned towards Burn/AmuletBloom/Tron; less so towards CoCo; I wouldn't call that an untuned list.
He also admitted that 3 Cryptic is probably the "Right" number; but his favorite card is Cryptic; so he couldn't see himself registering the Deck List without the full 4.
I maybe wrong; but yea; he didn't use those words of it not being tuned.
EDIT:
I think we all can learn something in hindsight...
I think that's really what he was saying.
Thought he could of gone 3 Cryptics.
Thought he needed a 22nd land.
Thought he needed a pair of sweepers.
But all in all; finishing 9th; he didn't say it was an untuned list; he just learned a few new things with his finish and gained a better perspective is all.
i am already planning on taking out the academy ruins, ee, and crypt. 2 monastary seige and k command are going in their place. i also have one fulminator mage to go with the command. i see thats picked up a bit of popularity lately. now the problem is getting k command into the main.
edit: 28 by my count, 26 if you don't count teachings itself.
Well this is definitely a well diversified list. I never went anywhere near this far down the Mystical Teachings plan though I do like the amount of Diversity you are able to find with your teachings package. I think Kolaghan's Command is going to have to occupy one of your electrolyze spots in the deck to not really make a big difference on what you already have going. Lop I think the deck could use a number of snapcaster mages for consistency sake but if you don't have them then by all means I understand that. If I was planning on paying it I also like being able to search out Vendilion Clique but that's personal preference. I don't actually think fulminator mage is going to make the main board of this deck because you are always going to have something better to do with your mana. I am not sure where you put him in at over there either. Wish I could be of more help but Overall I like the deck.
i was going to try that sooner or later. on the topic of snaps and clique. i would probably play one or two snaps if i could afford it, clique i would need to test. from what i have seen he hasn't been doing to well. and the mage was never for main. he was going to be a sb card to wreck a mana base if i didn't need to worry so much about creature removal.
Funny you guys should mention teachings, I recently put together a teachings list for fun :). It honestly didn't seem bad, I dug a little deep with some cards ;). For instance I added burst lightning replacing 1 lightning bolt for liliana since with the kicker u can teachings for it and kill lili the turn she comes down, not to mention sometimes your opponent is at 4 life =p. I also featured a Teferi lock with a teferi + cavern of souls in the sideboard for fun since getting teferi with teachings is more reliable in this deck than others that play teferi.(This comes in vs. twin and control/counterheavy decks). Finally you can teachings for commandeer against tron if you know you have 2 other blue spells in hand at the time :), this lets you just play 1 single commandeer vs them (not clunking up your hand with them when not needed). I fit it in in place of a sowing salt.
^ This is actually a really fun list to play lol, Really has a lot of nice toolpieces, wanted to fit a silumgar command in the sideboard but the burst lightning kinda solved my lili problem and the manabase is kind of ready for blood moon i think so thats not the biggest concern for this deck.
Sidenote in addition to adding things like anger to sideboard for strengthening the CoCo matchup, I really think night of souls' betrayal is an excellent sideboard card that could help in that matchup too, its been gaining a little popularity in jund as a strong sideboard card.
I also agree with what someone above posted, electrolyze is still really really good, I don't mind like 1 kolaghan command mainboard but like more than that feels a bit clunky in a list that has not that many creatures in it anyway. It seems more copies suit creature heavier decks more stronger.
Here is something to think about, what is the correct number of Cryptic Commands? I have personally ran either 2 or 4 in my lists.
I am currently running four and like that, but I would like to know what other people think.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
Give that Jace a spin and let us know what you think.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
It seems as if the recent Grixis lists have been cutting Electrolyze for Kolaghan's command...but I a not 100% sold on its value vs. Certain match ups. I think electrolyze is one of better cards against affinity and infect both. Most of their dudes are 1/1 and taking out a couple with a well timed electrolyze is still as good as it ever was...not to mention it replaces itself. I think izzet charm is fine, but is it really what we are looking for vs. Most decks? I mean it isn't a hard counter and it doesn't necessarily draw us a card is a one of remand out of the question? or maybecut it and the leaks for the Rune Snags that Lil Bolas was referring to?
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
I notice you have a Draw-Go style of Cruel now, have you done any testing with it? Curious as your thoughts.. .and I'm glad I corrupted someone else to trying Silumgar's Command haha
Decks Playing:
(Win-Loss-Tie totals in FNM/Ptq/Gpt's)
Modern:
DredgeVine (10-3-0)
Latern Control (24-5-0)
Cruel Control (19-5-1)
Urza-Eggs (29-13-1)
8-Rack (13-5-0, Retired for now)
BG Loam Pox (with Rack) (15-5-1, Retired for now)
3 Land Belcher (4-2-0) Retired for good.
Artificer's Intuition Surfing
Prison Pox (8-3-0)
Solidarity (Instant High tide Storm)
Zombardment
Pauper:
Oops all Spells (2-0-0)
Yea we've been discussing it; and I gotta admit; I'm coming around to it as well.
It's easier to get the BOUNCE out of it than Cryptic in a situation where we want/need to bounce Blood Moon; but it also has some much needed Planeswalker Hate if one slips through our Permission Package.
Of all the Planeswalker Hate; I think this is one of the ones that is up there and should be strongly considered.
I'm not talking about the Cheaper Walkers; I'm talking about the big bad ugly ones that are tough to kill with Burn when they resolve... UGIN/KARN.
Silumgar Command I think could really have a home in Modern; so I'm becoming convinced myself.
To take that a step further; you make alot of great cases for your list and card choices; I leave no stone unturned; especially about a deck I'm passionate about.
So I appreciate your perspective and feedback that you bring to this thread.
It is basically the version of Cruel Control I played before I added Liliana of the veil got added to my deck...I then added Tasigur in Place of one of the mana leaks and one Dreadbore. I also replaced the Remand with a Logic Knot to help make Tasigur a little better at what we are returning to our hand. I think it would be more a more accepted list than my other one and when I get a chance to get home to get my other cards I will test it.
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
Played a modern event last night and I have come to the conclusion that we do not need that silly Dragon's Claw to beat burn.
I beat burn with Dispels and Countersqualls, so I think countermagic is the path to take against them.
I also tested a single Witchbane Orb that I resolved against my burn opponent that had him cursing himself.
After last night I strongly believe that 4 Cryptic Command is correct for my list with all the aggro. That may seem counter intuitive, but using the fog mode gave me enough time to find a wrath and reset the board.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
I made this case a few pages back but it seems if I make a case; it's only because a Pro said it or something and no one really listens or takes me seriously; which is fine...
I know I have a lack of experience in the format; but one thing I do pride myself on is understanding how decks beat me; and understand the best ways or appropriate reasonable ways to attack them to prevent them from beating us.
I'm pretty good with Meta Gaming...
My first match that I studied when I sleeved up my Cruel Control list was Burn; I said it awhile ago that Artifacts/Enchantments are NOT the way to beat Burn.
I said it before any pro said it; but since certain people enjoy the fact that I also like to reference pros; Chapin just wrote an article about his Grixis Control list and finishing 9th at GP:C...
My finding awhile back ago was that Burn decks run anywhere between 5 to 8 "Destroy Enchantment/Artifact Deal Some Damage cards".
It's either Smash to Smithereens or Destructive Revelry for the most part...
I said tapping out for Turn 5 Batterskull just plays right into their hands... tapping out for Turn 6 Wurmcoil Engine plays right into their hands.
If I did give a slight nod to an Artifact that "COULD" in theory get the job done; it would be devoting like 3 slots to Dragon's Claw.
Simply because Dragon's Claw comes down as early as Turn 2; and if you run more than one your chances of getting one to stick are pretty good.
But that's 3 Slots... 3 precious slots; for 1 matchup... I don't like it.
I hated that solution to the problem; I've been saying its all about the Counterspells. Dispel; Flashfreeze/Countersquall.
I also run a 1 of Suffer the Past; because although our Counters certainly help; it's still a close game around Turn 6 or 7; if we don't curve out to Turn 7 Cruel; we are pretty close to death and 1 mistake at mishandling a resource or tapping out taking any kind of chance could cost us...
So I run a 1 of Suffer the Past as a way to help just in case...
So yea; I been saying it for awhile now... Welcome aboard.
The match I'm currently studying is TRON/XX matches... Blue Tron; GR Tron; sure they are vastly different decks; but they still rely on the same weakness; their Mana Base. Successfully neutralize that; and both decks drop down to our level and become much more manageable.
Currently we all disagree about the proper way to attack Tron Decks; but that's ok... I like my way.
I've always been against using life gaining artifacts as a way to beat burn, but thought it was necessary. Batterskull is not really for the burn matchup, it is for midrange matchups. Does batterskull happen to be good against burn? You bet, but he is not in the sideboard for that purpose.
On MODO burn is so prevalent that the life gaining artifacts are actually ok, but they do have drawbacks. One is they are so narrow and pretty useless against other match-ups. The biggest drawback to using things like Dragon's Claw is that Snapcaster Mage can't flash it back. Snaps and counters against burn is a lot better to me than using Spellskite or Dragon's Claw.
The best way to attack tron is hard counters and disrupting their mana.
Chapin's list is not very tuned at all, which he admitted. Running 21 lands, 4 Cryptics and no sweepers is not very smart in a meta with Collected Company. Who the heck runs Slay?
Plus it has no Cruel Ultimatum
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
on a related note, i run a teachings version. i have to find space for k command but its definately going in somewhere.
deck does very well, the only real match i have trouble with is burn, but i almost beat him till he topdecked a 4 point burn. he had only one left in the deck, any other spell would have let me live. came across a puresteel paladin storm deck that tried winning with a living lore. now that deck looks fun but its entirely to easy to stop for creul control.
Of all the things you could say, you say that Chapin's list is untuned? I feel like this is very wrong considering he got 9th at a 2700 person tournament. The only thing he was really missing in his side was sweepers and the deck is as Grixis as they come. Granted we are on completely different plans as far as what our decks are designed to do as he wants to Turbo out Delve guys and draw more spells than his opponent over the course of a match which he is able to do by running 8 dedicated cantrips not counting things like the singleton shadow of doubt, remand or electrolyze. We are a control deck and don't pack that much draw. This also lets him skimp on lands because his curve topper is Crytic Command because you never pay more than 3 for the delve guys in his list.
On the Topic of Slay...I agree that it seems a little random, but realistically it is for specific matches and probably has a lot more uses than you would think in a heavy collected company/Jund meta...not to mention Various Wild Nactal decks.
I have given realistic thought of abandoning Cruel altogether and just playing his list because it functions much better against the meta than what we are doing, but let's face the facts...Cruel Ultimatum makes your opponent not want to play magic anymore after it is cast on him and that's way more fun to me.
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
I think most of us have washed that idea off to the side. I used to run it in my main, but after dropping my instant speed wraths from the main and my Teferi from the board I got rid of it too. How many Teachings and How many Targets for teachings do you run out of curiosity?
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
So I am very right considering I repeated what the man himself had to say about his deck.
Said he wanted an extra land and a pair of sweepers.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
1 reflecting pool
1 cascade bluffs
1 sunken ruins
1 sulfur falls
1 dragonskull summit
1 blood crypt
2 watery grave
2 steam vents
1 mountain
1 swamp
2 island
4 polluted delta
4 bloodstained mire
4 creeping tar pit
creatures:
1 tasigur, the golden fang
artifacts:
1 batterskull
planeswalkers:
2 jace, artchitect of thought
2 creul ultimatum
instants:
1 repeal
1 spell pierce
1 logic knot
1 consume the meek
1 murderous cut
1 far//away
1 devour flesh
2 shadow of doubt
2 terminate
3 electrolyze
3 lightning bolt
2 spell snare
2 remand
2 mystical teachings
2 mana leak
3 cryptic command
1 keranos, god of storms
1 mogis, god of slaughter
1 damnation
1 monastary seige
1 rakdos charm
1 counterflux
1 teferi, mage of zhalfir
1 tribute to hunger
1 vandalblast
1 negate
1 slaughter games
1 echoing truth
1 tormod's crypt
1 engineered explosives
1 academy ruins
i am already planning on taking out the academy ruins, ee, and crypt. 2 monastary seige and k command are going in their place. i also have one fulminator mage to go with the command. i see thats picked up a bit of popularity lately. now the problem is getting k command into the main.
edit: 28 by my count, 26 if you don't count teachings itself.
I think what GrixisGuru is saying; Chapin never admitted or said those words exactly in his article...
I've read it a few times; and I don't recall him saying anything to the tune of "My list wasn't tuned.."
Where Chapin admitted fault was he didn't bring enough to counteract what CoCo decks were doing.
He is 0-13 VS CoCo Decks and admitted the need for some kind of Sweeper of either Damnation or Angers; or a combination of the 2.
I'm going to re-read it again; don't think he admitted that his list wasn't Tuned though... Finishing 9th with an Untuned list if he did say that; wow... Kudos to him.
It was Tuned; it was tuned towards Burn/AmuletBloom/Tron; less so towards CoCo; I wouldn't call that an untuned list.
He also admitted that 3 Cryptic is probably the "Right" number; but his favorite card is Cryptic; so he couldn't see himself registering the Deck List without the full 4.
I maybe wrong; but yea; he didn't use those words of it not being tuned.
EDIT:
I think we all can learn something in hindsight...
I think that's really what he was saying.
Thought he could of gone 3 Cryptics.
Thought he needed a 22nd land.
Thought he needed a pair of sweepers.
But all in all; finishing 9th; he didn't say it was an untuned list; he just learned a few new things with his finish and gained a better perspective is all.
Well this is definitely a well diversified list. I never went anywhere near this far down the Mystical Teachings plan though I do like the amount of Diversity you are able to find with your teachings package. I think Kolaghan's Command is going to have to occupy one of your electrolyze spots in the deck to not really make a big difference on what you already have going. Lop I think the deck could use a number of snapcaster mages for consistency sake but if you don't have them then by all means I understand that. If I was planning on paying it I also like being able to search out Vendilion Clique but that's personal preference. I don't actually think fulminator mage is going to make the main board of this deck because you are always going to have something better to do with your mana. I am not sure where you put him in at over there either. Wish I could be of more help but Overall I like the deck.
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
4 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Cryptic Command
1 Damnation
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Island
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Logic Knot
1 Mountain
1 Murderous Cut
4 Polluted Delta
2 Remand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Spell Snare
2 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
1 Swamp
1 Terminate
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Watery Grave
2 Mana Leak
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Shadow of Doubt
2 Electrolyze
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Go for the Throat
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Mystical Teachings
1 Suffer the Past
1 Burst Lightning
1 Cruel ultimatum
1 Dispel
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Shattering Spree
2 Fulminator Mage
1 commandeer
1 Negate
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Far // Away
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Sowing Salt
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
^ This is actually a really fun list to play lol, Really has a lot of nice toolpieces, wanted to fit a silumgar command in the sideboard but the burst lightning kinda solved my lili problem and the manabase is kind of ready for blood moon i think so thats not the biggest concern for this deck.
Sidenote in addition to adding things like anger to sideboard for strengthening the CoCo matchup, I really think night of souls' betrayal is an excellent sideboard card that could help in that matchup too, its been gaining a little popularity in jund as a strong sideboard card.
I also agree with what someone above posted, electrolyze is still really really good, I don't mind like 1 kolaghan command mainboard but like more than that feels a bit clunky in a list that has not that many creatures in it anyway. It seems more copies suit creature heavier decks more stronger.