Hello folks,
I've been trying to go the narrow path of draw-go with little succes at the last FNM. Annihilated by affinity (animated artifact with my response swallowed by spellskite, then ravager ravaging undbound as my flawed manabase denied me a cryptic), as I was destroyed by regular Jund goyfing me to death.
But... how to put that ? Strangely enough, be able to cast Nicol Bolas three times made my night. And the diffence of power level between tier 1/1.5 decks and my awkward control was more than erased by the pleasure of driving the Eternel Outsider's deck.
I love this deck !
If your approach to grixis is to play pure draw go I think uwr and esper are much better at doing that due to rev. I think the right approach to grixis is something like Patrick Chapin's list from the last gp.
Hello folks,
I've been trying to go the narrow path of draw-go with little succes at the last FNM. Annihilated by affinity (animated artifact with my response swallowed by spellskite, then ravager ravaging undbound as my flawed manabase denied me a cryptic), as I was destroyed by regular Jund goyfing me to death.
But... how to put that ? Strangely enough, be able to cast Nicol Bolas three times made my night. And the diffence of power level between tier 1/1.5 decks and my awkward control was more than erased by the pleasure of driving the Eternel Outsider's deck.
I love this deck !
If your approach to grixis is to play pure draw go I think uwr and esper are much better at doing that due to rev. I think the right approach to grixis is something like Patrick Chapin's list from the last gp.
...good thing for us I don't think any of us try to copy what a pro does; this is a CRUEL Control thread and thus we're building decks with Cruel and trying to think outside the box a little bit.
I think most of us here love Cruel; it's our favorite card to resolve; and that's a big reason why we're playing Modern with it... so coming here and saying we should copy Chapin's list or trying to talk us out of Cruel is pertty much a moot point and shouldn't be made at all.
Thanks MrRotten. I don't know why we consistently have to say this, but we are here to cast Cruel Ultimatum.
If I don't want to cast Cruel Ultimatum, I'll play one of my other decks like Jund or Fish.
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UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
I think the problem with Molten Rain is what GrixisGuru eluded to; but I could take it another step forward.
It's SORCERY.
So you're either casting it; hitting a Land that potentially doesn't put Amulet Bloom or XX Tron behind all that much at all.
OR: It just rots in your hand; with the idea that you HOPE to Untap and be able to Hit a Land that is relevant to what they're instead of us just sitting there helpless while they drop their last Tron Piece or drop a Tron Piece; and use Expedition Map to fetch up the 3rd one and complete it... I feel like smart Amulet/Tron players can easily play around a Sorcery Speed Molten Rain as opposed to them knowing that a Fulminator Mage is sitting on the table.
With Fulmintaor; I should hope that no one here casts a Fulminator and instantly POPS it and destroys a land.
Having watched Chapin's Coverage Feature Match VS Amulet Bloom; the commentators referenced a conversation with CVM talking about when people played Fulminators VS Him when he was on Amulet Bloom; that too often people mis-play Fulminators and pop them too early.
Chapin being the HOF Pro that he is did not do that; but unfortunately he didn't draw much more gas beyond that to make the Fulminator better and although he played the Fulminator correctly; he still lost.
But the theory is still sound; you want Fulminator; attack with Fulminator to get some damage in; and SAC Fulminator when a great situation presents itself.
Fulminator gives us a bit more flexibility because you can drop it out there and aren't required to POP it immediately; can provide some sneaky points of damage and still synergizes with the rest of our deck.
Where as Molten Rain is Sorcery Speed; so we're either forced to potentially play it EARLY tapping out for it; potentially hitting a land that isn't ideal; or it simply rots in your hand.
So IMO Fulminator > Molten Rain; but with that being said; I think the best plan of attack is Fulminator 3 or 4 with 1 or 2 Sowing Salt.
Sowing Salt provides some permanent inevitability in those Matchups.
Not to mention Sowing Salt can be brought in as a way to exile Darksteel Citadel VS Affinity matchups to help to keep Etched Champion turned off when we've answered everything else...
If we say EXILE and REMOVE their Urza Tower; they no longer get Tron Online and that helps tremendously on how we attack them the rest of the game.
Also; if we use Sowing Salt, it can't be neutralized by Crucible of Worlds; if we are going all in on the Fulminator Plan AND/OR the Molten Rain Plan; people start using Crucibles to play around that.
For my LD Package; I have opted for a 3 Fulminator and 1 Sowing Salt split to go with my Shadow of Doubt and Counter Suite.
All of which has proven to slow down Tron; and gives us good windows to resolve Sowing Salts or to Snapcaster Flash Sowing Salt BACK.
Because let's be honest; if they Assemble Tron; or Assemble alot of their Bounce Lands in Amulet Bloom; we've already lost.
VS these 2 decks; neutralizing their lands is only the first priority of the battle; because these decks have the ability to shift and still cast their threats if we're not careful.
But our Answers become much much better if they don't have Tron or alot of Lands in play. Mana Leaks become a fine reasonable option to counter a tappout attempt for a Karn; or Ugin...
All of our Answers are great so long as we neutralize the mana base.
Not to mention that a Fulminator Mage plus a surgical extraction on the piece that hit the graveyard leaves them crippled the rest of the game and all that can potentially cast on turn 3 alongside paying 2 life.
Not to mention that a Fulminator Mage plus a surgical extraction on the piece that hit the graveyard leaves them crippled the rest of the game and all that can potentially cast on turn 3 alongside paying 2 life.
To be fair; that's IF you're playing Surgical Extraction post board...
From what I can tell; you and I are pretty much the only people that find Value in the Extraction.
What I like to do is attack these decks from all different angles; hit em with Haymaker after Haymaker; after Haymaker....
Let them be worried I have Shadow of Doubt so they opt to not crack Expedition Map until a turn or 2 later with counter backup; let them be worried I have Surgical Extraction; let them be worried I have the Sowing Salt so instead of tapping out they leave mana up always...
All of that plays right into my hands of a Long Game; slowing their building of the Tron/Amulet Blood and allows me to continue to store resources and still have the ability to hit em in alot of different ways.
If they play VS my hate aggressively; then they put the onus on me in being able to use the Right Tool for the Right Situation; and if that's the case? With more practice in the format; I bank on me in the long run.
With Fulmintaor; I should hope that no one here casts a Fulminator and instantly POPS it and destroys a land.
yes especially on turn 3 , when oppo Alredy putted out 2/3 urzaLands
But the theory is still sound; you want Fulminator; attack with Fulminator to get some damage in; and SAC Fulminator when a great situation presents itself.
yep we can attack And still wait his third piece then we can responde to a Land with our Instant ability, oh wait!
Where as Molten Rain is Sorcery Speed; so we're either forced to potentially play it EARLY tapping out for it; potentially hitting a land that isn't ideal; or it simply rots in your hand.
agree on this fulminator is good to play mid/late game , it has flash / 0 cmc so is really better
Not to mention Sowing Salt can be brought in as a way to exile Darksteel Citadel VS Affinity matchups to help to keep Etched Champion turned off when we've answered everything else...
LOL sowing salt was we ak in my play test also against bloom, i don't want know how it work vs robots . Is a really narrow card, I still think to go down to 1x in favor of 1x surgical/extirpate that can be usefully also in other matches
VS these 2 decks; neutralizing their lands is only the first priority of the battle; because these decks have the ability to shift and still cast their threats if we're not careful.
so isn't really important If fulminator can help our race! (Molten is however better cuz always do 2dmgs) . But potentially is more important to take 2 important lands in 5 turns with more probabilities
But our Answers become much much better if they don't have Tron or alot of Lands in play. Mana Leaks become a fine reasonable option to counter a tappout attempt for a Karn; or Ugin...
So ty but your words can only convince me that Molten will be better
...only confirmed what I already thought; good luck to you.
I like a lot of the strategies u guys are talking about with fulminator, the idea of a couple fulms and a single sowing salt seems pretty attractive tbh, hard to make room in the board for it but I think a single sowing salt seems very interesting tbh. Mostly because fulminators come in vs. much more matchups than just tron, but sowing salt, i mean cmon thats only coming in vs. tron lol. So yeah I like the idea of having just ONE card dedicated to JUST tron and for it to be a lights out card generally speaking anyway. But to also have a couple more that are pretty strong but also much more versatile. Also Shadow of doubt is obviously insanely good to mainboard like a single copy of right now if you're expecting a lot of Tron and Amulet bloom (which is very reasonable to expect especially bloom).
I don't actually think extraction is all that bad vs some decks like tron but its always been one of those cards that for some reason just doesn't seem consistent enough for whatever reason. I'd have to try it to really say but thats my initial impression anyway.
Also in general I think if you guys are trying to focus on strategies vs. tron you should focus on Green/Red tron only, the blue version seems a ton weaker vs a lot of the other decks out there than the Green/ Red one due to being far less consistent at assembling tron. So i'd say just don't even pay attention to the Blue version tbh, its not worth it.
Finallly a good reply that add something that isn't like " play fulminator is really better cuz pros play it And idk but is better ".
If this is all you got out of my reply on my reasoning of Fulminator VS Molten Rain; then you're more of an idiot than I thought... I honestly didn't think that was possible; kudos to you sir.
I like the idea of having a couple of Ghost Quarters. Make sure you have a Urborg in the deck though.
I like Fulminator because you can bring him in against any deck and disrupt their mana. Hell he might even block a few dudes while we load up a Damnation.
Match-up note: Elves gets destroyed by our deck. They can't survive all the removal.
You do need to slow them down though.
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UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
So, I've been lurking the last few days, and I'll be honest... If we're going to be cruel to one another, rather then figure out how we can make all of our versions of Cruel Control work (I'm not going to act like theres "one" version of the deck that shines above the others, they all have strengths/weakness'), then we're never going to be of 'help' to one another. We're trying to build a deck befitting a great, devastating finisher of a card, Cruel Ultimatum. Sure, we've all got different views / cards to do so, but thats the great part about this... They all work! I have a more Draw-Go control variation, DoULikeMyUlt1m4tuM tried an artifact control, MrRotten/folks have a Tapout control version... Not one of the lists is an exact match with one another, but hey, we agree on cards, disagree on cards and thats normal... But to insult one another and pick fun at the deck choices we make (Y'all feel free to make fun of my Silumgar's Command, but it's worked well to deal with Blood Moons, Scapeshifts (Who expects this jank muhaha)) then why are we bothering to aid in this deck becoming something (not exactly tier 1, though I'd love to say I've aided in the growth of the deck...).
As for our debate of Molten Rain vs Fulmintaor Mage... I feel Fulmintaor is a GREAT addition for the main (one I wont adopt just yet, but it's on my radar of changes), thanks to Kolaghan's Command being able to return it to our hand end of opp's turn and reuse it on ours... or Cruel it back and do a bit more damage. Fulmintaor can also chumpblock and sac to destroy a land against lifegain/such, or even sneak in a few hits of his own.
As for Molten Rain, I've never been impressed with it with Cruel Control's shell, as we tap our turn 3/4 with it, snap it back turn 5 onward, and we risk being tapped out all over again, which solves nothing. Sure, we can get 2/4 damage out of our opponent, but are we THAT worried about the damage? we have Lightning Bolt, Kolaghan's Command, Cruel Ultimaium, Keranos, God of Storms... We have enough ways of dealing damage that in my opinion we don't need to worry. I'd rather risk a Sowing Salt and not worry (assuming it resolves) about Tron, Valukut, Manlands (Yes, even vs Affinity), etc.
I disagree with any sort of Colorless land (minus Filter lands) but, thats just me and worrying about my 'greedy' manabase. Even with an Urborg, I don't think it'd help out much, as I'm more worried about having mana for whatever task is at stake (anticipate into teminate, snapcaster flashback cruel ult, etc etc) that only having black (in my list atleast, Black feels more of a splashy color) 'fixing' bothers me. But, I'm not on the LD strategy at all (You can hit ALL your land drops, you do something relevant though, then I'm upset... lol)
About these less than helpful comments about non-cruel decks, sure I dont mind people comparing the lists, but I view it a lot differently then most. I'll use Chaplin's list to compare vs my own: Sure You get a Tasigur out vs me, I'll gladly Terminate it. You get a Gurmag Angler out, and I'll Cruel Ultimatium, grabbing a snapcaster, or if I manage to really luck out, a Keranos! (Sure, this may be Magic the Gathering (tm) Christmas Land, but hell, Even a Far // Away helps)
I have done a few test matches recently (I've decided to not touch my decklist until I have 20 "real"(with another player, I do occasionally test vs myself, but I try not to use those matches for anything other than general strategy testing, manabase tests etc) games under my belt. Here's the results:
Friendly test Tournamant, as I'm going to be trying to take Cruel to a gpt/ptq next month and a few guys want to support me in doing well:
Round 1 - GR Tron - 2-1
Game 1 - He got casual Tron, and quad wormcoils is not a fun time...
Game 2 - Got to Silimgar's Command away a Karn (destroy) and an O-Stone (bounce), before Crueling him to a scoop.
Game 3 - He missed 1 land drop on turn 3, and I was able to Sowing Salt away his Tower's, he decided to keep trying, and eventually cast Wormcoils, only for each to be countered / dealt with (Terminate into Silimgar's COmmand ((-3/-3 and bounce ))
Round 2 - UB Mill - 2-1
Game 1 - I wasn't sure what brew a pal brought this time haha, and when he went t1 Hedron Crab I fetched out a Blood Crypt to bolt it, only to be Archive Trapped twice... needless to say, I didnt win with that start.
Game 2 - Now that I know what I'm doing, I'm avoiding fetches, until I have some counter backup, turns out he kept poorly.
Game 3 - Same idea as g2, cept I decide to sowing salt his shelldock isle, and then land a Keranos next turn which nets me enough of an advantage to win.
Round 3 - Collected Elves - 2-0
Game 1 - removal is key, same as countering CoCo.
Game 2 - Anger's help out a lot, and an Ezuri meets his match against a Snapcaster. Turns out Snapcaster has a... shocking personality.
Round 4 - GR Tron rematch - 2-0
Game 1 - His deck doesn't want to work...
Game 2 - I manage to do everything my sideboard plan wants me to do.
Round 5 - Grixis Delver (Chaplin's List) - 2-0
Game 1 - Turns out, Faring a Tasigur is good... and Angler's eat Terminates just like anyone else.
Game 2 - Game goes long and he never gets to keep creatures out, and apparently didnt side in Fulimator mages / Keranos against me because he figured they were 'too slow' of a strategy. Ah well I showed him Keranos wins vs him.
I'm not counting these towards the decks total win/loss records, as some of the players weren't playing 'honest' (just having fun), and some didn't know sideboards to decks/such. I'm going to be trying to focus alot on making as few mistakes as I can with my list vs the majority of the top 20 lists. If people want, I will gladly do up a sideboard guide for some match-ups, or a general deck guide of my version...
To all my Cruel friends, I hope that you realize that our deck holds some of the greatest power...
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Decks Playing:
(Win-Loss-Tie totals in FNM/Ptq/Gpt's)
Modern:
DredgeVine (10-3-0)
Latern Control (24-5-0)
Cruel Control (19-5-1)
Urza-Eggs (29-13-1)
8-Rack (13-5-0, Retired for now)
BG Loam Pox (with Rack) (15-5-1, Retired for now)
3 Land Belcher (4-2-0) Retired for good.
Hey I was not trying to demean you DoULikeMyUlt1m4tuM, I was just making a point about the mana base with colorless lands.
I do want to reiterate what TheUndeadDwarf is saying, we need to stop bickering about small card choices. The thread may be called Cruel Control, but that does not mean we should be cruel to each other.
TheUndeadDwarf showed that tron is not quite the unbeatable deck some people think it is.
TheUndeadDwarf what is your current list?
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UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
Alright DoULikeMyUlt1m4tuM, I just wanted to be clear about that.
What is your native language by the way? I'm curious.
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Level 1 Judge
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UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
I do want to reiterate what TheUndeadDwarf is saying, we need to stop bickering about small card choices. The thread may be called Cruel Control, but that does not mean we should be cruel to each other.
TheUndeadDwarf showed that tron is not quite the unbeatable deck some people think it is.
TheUndeadDwarf what is your current list?
Sadly I've yet to change my list*(it's at the end of my post), but thats mostly due to me not being able to decipher what to change haha. Just when a card seems to start acting poor, the next time I play it seems to do great, so it makes cutting something difficult (Looking at you Silumgar's Command, haha. It's great vs blood moon decks, as it's easier to cast than a cryptic is, just need a way to use another mode)
UndeadDwarf isn't a factor. He played always vs unlucky/bad players And He won 95% of his matches . For real I want to know ur secrets bro.
Haha, I honestly don't know how to respond. I'm one of those weird players that just picks up meta's and plays around them (Like a year ago, I was hardcore on 8-Rack, then moved to it's successor BG Smallpox w/ Rack, while I ran my version of Eggs along side it as a solitare deck. Now I'm glad to be playing some Cruel Control)
As for the bad/ulucky players around here, For the most part I assume some bad luck on my opponents with some plays, but I've been fairly decent at seeing 'the' play several times (ex, opp is laying a naya prison enchantment deck, he has blood moon out, he taps out to cast a spell, I resolve a Silumgar's COmmand to bounce the Blood Moon / Counter his Sphere of Safety, then bolt him to 5, and cast Cruel Ult next turn), and I luck out of bad situations, or just pray my opp's miss a response (If I go back to when I played vs a CoCo player, the guy forgot to sac a Kitchen Finks / Visera Seer during an Anger of the Gods, among a few other misplays, but watching him in a later round he played near perfect...)
My "Secrets" are mostly I play real bad cards... that somehow win me matches haha and I always have some fun playing this deck (I'm very chatty with opps and such, and they seem to help me out when they show me how they sideboard vs me haha). I know I'm not a top notch player, I make a fair number of mistakes (I mean, if you look at the list of decks I play ) but I'm constantly learning, paying attention to games I play and mistakes both me/opps make, etc. I'm only now comfortable enough with this 'brew' to say I'd play it in a gpt/ptq... Only other times I've done that were with BG Zombies during Inn/RTR Standard, and more recently with UG Flash, during RTR/Theros (I loved preying on those UW COntrol decks... I was also real happy with that deck, played 2 games prior to going, top 8'd that event with 300 people... )
I honestly think the main key to this deck in any form is just getting in your games with it...getting used to your list and knowing what other decks bring to the table and how they win vs. what we do. I don't think we are an underdog in any match up outside of the Bloom Titan match and the G/R tron match up. I know I have played this Archtype for over 2 years solid and have had several top 8's in local meta's from Ohio to Minnesota, unfortunately I travel and can't really do bigger tournaments because of the nature of my job and I'm usually working 12+ hours on Saturday/Sunday. I know what works in this deck for me and I know what I've had success with and what has been amounted to hot Garbage in my deck. My deck for anyone that is generally interested is always clickable in the link below any post I make on here and is usually updated when I play something new.
I understand that my take on the deck is a little extreme looking to put it mildly, but everyone dismises it as bad before even attempting a trial run with it. I guess to be honest it is a mix of a cruel control deck and a jund decck slapped together and you all aren't interested but I promise it does work.
I do think that I am open to making changes to the deck and working on the deck with Mr. Rotten has gotten me further into thinking and adjusting some choices but I'm not confidant enough to share a list that I know is still being tested because it definitely isn't ideal. There is also the point of no one tests anything really anyway, they just post what they think and tell you how their list is so much superior so there is that small tidbit.
The only things I can tell is that almost all of us agree on some spells that should be included in every list like...
That leaves you at least 8 slots that you can use in the main deck tomake it your own. Feel free to try out some weird ***** god knows I have...I have even tried Demonic Rising.
p.s. I still think Molten Rain sucks in our deck, but don't take it personally DoULikeMyUlt1m4tuM. We will agree to disagree.
Italian , i alredy asked sorry many time for my english man.. But i accept insult on that , not on Molten rain ihihih
Dwarf i Just think that u are really confindent with ur list , And can drive it well.
Unlike my , I pass my nights on work to try starting handa And i changed 2 cards every night.. Basing on 4/5 matches that I play during the day
A suggestion, try to overcompensate on English. Using aolspeak stuff like "ur" and incorrect capitalization just looks lazy and creates an impression that you're not really trying to communicate seriously. When you don't get the easy things right, it's a lot less plausible that ESL is the real barrier.
Your English is fine mate. I studied a little Italian before switching to spanish.
GrixisGuru I think using Demonic Rising is hilarious and even viable lol.
I play modern everyday on MODO and in paper twice a week. Whenever new cards come out I'm eager to test them for this deck, I was excited when Kolaghan's Command was released and I thought it would be great in this deck.
I'm an Engineer by training so I'm always going to test crazy and new ideas before dismissing them.
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Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
GrixisGuru I think using Demonic Rising is hilarious and even viable lol.
When I was playing a more draw go list at one time Demonic Rising gave me a reliable finisher that could close the game in a hurry...because we are often finishing a game using snapcaster mage or Vendilion clique for beatdowns so why not up our clock with a 5/5 demon...or use Tar Pit and swing for 3 get a 5/5 and then if they can't deal with said 5/5 get another one the following turn...everyone lauhged about it, but it did put in work.
If your approach to grixis is to play pure draw go I think uwr and esper are much better at doing that due to rev. I think the right approach to grixis is something like Patrick Chapin's list from the last gp.
...good thing for us I don't think any of us try to copy what a pro does; this is a CRUEL Control thread and thus we're building decks with Cruel and trying to think outside the box a little bit.
I think most of us here love Cruel; it's our favorite card to resolve; and that's a big reason why we're playing Modern with it... so coming here and saying we should copy Chapin's list or trying to talk us out of Cruel is pertty much a moot point and shouldn't be made at all.
Thanks for your advice... moving along.
If I don't want to cast Cruel Ultimatum, I'll play one of my other decks like Jund or Fish.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
I think the problem with Molten Rain is what GrixisGuru eluded to; but I could take it another step forward.
It's SORCERY.
So you're either casting it; hitting a Land that potentially doesn't put Amulet Bloom or XX Tron behind all that much at all.
OR: It just rots in your hand; with the idea that you HOPE to Untap and be able to Hit a Land that is relevant to what they're instead of us just sitting there helpless while they drop their last Tron Piece or drop a Tron Piece; and use Expedition Map to fetch up the 3rd one and complete it... I feel like smart Amulet/Tron players can easily play around a Sorcery Speed Molten Rain as opposed to them knowing that a Fulminator Mage is sitting on the table.
With Fulmintaor; I should hope that no one here casts a Fulminator and instantly POPS it and destroys a land.
Having watched Chapin's Coverage Feature Match VS Amulet Bloom; the commentators referenced a conversation with CVM talking about when people played Fulminators VS Him when he was on Amulet Bloom; that too often people mis-play Fulminators and pop them too early.
Chapin being the HOF Pro that he is did not do that; but unfortunately he didn't draw much more gas beyond that to make the Fulminator better and although he played the Fulminator correctly; he still lost.
But the theory is still sound; you want Fulminator; attack with Fulminator to get some damage in; and SAC Fulminator when a great situation presents itself.
Fulminator gives us a bit more flexibility because you can drop it out there and aren't required to POP it immediately; can provide some sneaky points of damage and still synergizes with the rest of our deck.
Where as Molten Rain is Sorcery Speed; so we're either forced to potentially play it EARLY tapping out for it; potentially hitting a land that isn't ideal; or it simply rots in your hand.
So IMO Fulminator > Molten Rain; but with that being said; I think the best plan of attack is Fulminator 3 or 4 with 1 or 2 Sowing Salt.
Sowing Salt provides some permanent inevitability in those Matchups.
Not to mention Sowing Salt can be brought in as a way to exile Darksteel Citadel VS Affinity matchups to help to keep Etched Champion turned off when we've answered everything else...
If we say EXILE and REMOVE their Urza Tower; they no longer get Tron Online and that helps tremendously on how we attack them the rest of the game.
Also; if we use Sowing Salt, it can't be neutralized by Crucible of Worlds; if we are going all in on the Fulminator Plan AND/OR the Molten Rain Plan; people start using Crucibles to play around that.
For my LD Package; I have opted for a 3 Fulminator and 1 Sowing Salt split to go with my Shadow of Doubt and Counter Suite.
All of which has proven to slow down Tron; and gives us good windows to resolve Sowing Salts or to Snapcaster Flash Sowing Salt BACK.
Because let's be honest; if they Assemble Tron; or Assemble alot of their Bounce Lands in Amulet Bloom; we've already lost.
VS these 2 decks; neutralizing their lands is only the first priority of the battle; because these decks have the ability to shift and still cast their threats if we're not careful.
But our Answers become much much better if they don't have Tron or alot of Lands in play. Mana Leaks become a fine reasonable option to counter a tappout attempt for a Karn; or Ugin...
All of our Answers are great so long as we neutralize the mana base.
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
To be fair; that's IF you're playing Surgical Extraction post board...
From what I can tell; you and I are pretty much the only people that find Value in the Extraction.
What I like to do is attack these decks from all different angles; hit em with Haymaker after Haymaker; after Haymaker....
Let them be worried I have Shadow of Doubt so they opt to not crack Expedition Map until a turn or 2 later with counter backup; let them be worried I have Surgical Extraction; let them be worried I have the Sowing Salt so instead of tapping out they leave mana up always...
All of that plays right into my hands of a Long Game; slowing their building of the Tron/Amulet Blood and allows me to continue to store resources and still have the ability to hit em in alot of different ways.
If they play VS my hate aggressively; then they put the onus on me in being able to use the Right Tool for the Right Situation; and if that's the case? With more practice in the format; I bank on me in the long run.
...only confirmed what I already thought; good luck to you.
I don't actually think extraction is all that bad vs some decks like tron but its always been one of those cards that for some reason just doesn't seem consistent enough for whatever reason. I'd have to try it to really say but thats my initial impression anyway.
Also in general I think if you guys are trying to focus on strategies vs. tron you should focus on Green/Red tron only, the blue version seems a ton weaker vs a lot of the other decks out there than the Green/ Red one due to being far less consistent at assembling tron. So i'd say just don't even pay attention to the Blue version tbh, its not worth it.
If this is all you got out of my reply on my reasoning of Fulminator VS Molten Rain; then you're more of an idiot than I thought... I honestly didn't think that was possible; kudos to you sir.
I like Fulminator because you can bring him in against any deck and disrupt their mana. Hell he might even block a few dudes while we load up a Damnation.
Match-up note: Elves gets destroyed by our deck. They can't survive all the removal.
You do need to slow them down though.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
As for our debate of Molten Rain vs Fulmintaor Mage... I feel Fulmintaor is a GREAT addition for the main (one I wont adopt just yet, but it's on my radar of changes), thanks to Kolaghan's Command being able to return it to our hand end of opp's turn and reuse it on ours... or Cruel it back and do a bit more damage. Fulmintaor can also chumpblock and sac to destroy a land against lifegain/such, or even sneak in a few hits of his own.
As for Molten Rain, I've never been impressed with it with Cruel Control's shell, as we tap our turn 3/4 with it, snap it back turn 5 onward, and we risk being tapped out all over again, which solves nothing. Sure, we can get 2/4 damage out of our opponent, but are we THAT worried about the damage? we have Lightning Bolt, Kolaghan's Command, Cruel Ultimaium, Keranos, God of Storms... We have enough ways of dealing damage that in my opinion we don't need to worry. I'd rather risk a Sowing Salt and not worry (assuming it resolves) about Tron, Valukut, Manlands (Yes, even vs Affinity), etc.
I disagree with any sort of Colorless land (minus Filter lands) but, thats just me and worrying about my 'greedy' manabase. Even with an Urborg, I don't think it'd help out much, as I'm more worried about having mana for whatever task is at stake (anticipate into teminate, snapcaster flashback cruel ult, etc etc) that only having black (in my list atleast, Black feels more of a splashy color) 'fixing' bothers me. But, I'm not on the LD strategy at all (You can hit ALL your land drops, you do something relevant though, then I'm upset... lol)
About these less than helpful comments about non-cruel decks, sure I dont mind people comparing the lists, but I view it a lot differently then most. I'll use Chaplin's list to compare vs my own: Sure You get a Tasigur out vs me, I'll gladly Terminate it. You get a Gurmag Angler out, and I'll Cruel Ultimatium, grabbing a snapcaster, or if I manage to really luck out, a Keranos! (Sure, this may be Magic the Gathering (tm) Christmas Land, but hell, Even a Far // Away helps)
I have done a few test matches recently (I've decided to not touch my decklist until I have 20 "real"(with another player, I do occasionally test vs myself, but I try not to use those matches for anything other than general strategy testing, manabase tests etc) games under my belt. Here's the results:
Friendly test Tournamant, as I'm going to be trying to take Cruel to a gpt/ptq next month and a few guys want to support me in doing well:
Round 1 - GR Tron - 2-1
Game 1 - He got casual Tron, and quad wormcoils is not a fun time...
Game 2 - Got to Silimgar's Command away a Karn (destroy) and an O-Stone (bounce), before Crueling him to a scoop.
Game 3 - He missed 1 land drop on turn 3, and I was able to Sowing Salt away his Tower's, he decided to keep trying, and eventually cast Wormcoils, only for each to be countered / dealt with (Terminate into Silimgar's COmmand ((-3/-3 and bounce
Game 1 - I wasn't sure what brew a pal brought this time haha, and when he went t1 Hedron Crab I fetched out a Blood Crypt to bolt it, only to be Archive Trapped twice... needless to say, I didnt win with that start.
Game 2 - Now that I know what I'm doing, I'm avoiding fetches, until I have some counter backup, turns out he kept poorly.
Game 3 - Same idea as g2, cept I decide to sowing salt his shelldock isle, and then land a Keranos next turn which nets me enough of an advantage to win.
Game 1 - removal is key, same as countering CoCo.
Game 2 - Anger's help out a lot, and an Ezuri meets his match against a Snapcaster. Turns out Snapcaster has a... shocking personality.
Game 1 - His deck doesn't want to work...
Game 2 - I manage to do everything my sideboard plan wants me to do.
Round 5 - Grixis Delver (Chaplin's List) - 2-0
Game 1 - Turns out, Faring a Tasigur is good... and Angler's eat Terminates just like anyone else.
Game 2 - Game goes long and he never gets to keep creatures out, and apparently didnt side in Fulimator mages / Keranos against me because he figured they were 'too slow' of a strategy. Ah well I showed him Keranos wins vs him.
I'm not counting these towards the decks total win/loss records, as some of the players weren't playing 'honest' (just having fun), and some didn't know sideboards to decks/such. I'm going to be trying to focus alot on making as few mistakes as I can with my list vs the majority of the top 20 lists. If people want, I will gladly do up a sideboard guide for some match-ups, or a general deck guide of my version...
To all my Cruel friends, I hope that you realize that our deck holds some of the greatest power...
Decks Playing:
(Win-Loss-Tie totals in FNM/Ptq/Gpt's)
Modern:
DredgeVine (10-3-0)
Latern Control (24-5-0)
Cruel Control (19-5-1)
Urza-Eggs (29-13-1)
8-Rack (13-5-0, Retired for now)
BG Loam Pox (with Rack) (15-5-1, Retired for now)
3 Land Belcher (4-2-0) Retired for good.
Artificer's Intuition Surfing
Prison Pox (8-3-0)
Solidarity (Instant High tide Storm)
Zombardment
Pauper:
Oops all Spells (2-0-0)
I do want to reiterate what TheUndeadDwarf is saying, we need to stop bickering about small card choices. The thread may be called Cruel Control, but that does not mean we should be cruel to each other.
TheUndeadDwarf showed that tron is not quite the unbeatable deck some people think it is.
TheUndeadDwarf what is your current list?
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
What is your native language by the way? I'm curious.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
Sadly I've yet to change my list*(it's at the end of my post), but thats mostly due to me not being able to decipher what to change haha. Just when a card seems to start acting poor, the next time I play it seems to do great, so it makes cutting something difficult (Looking at you Silumgar's Command, haha. It's great vs blood moon decks, as it's easier to cast than a cryptic is, just need a way to use another mode)
-----------
Haha, I honestly don't know how to respond. I'm one of those weird players that just picks up meta's and plays around them (Like a year ago, I was hardcore on 8-Rack, then moved to it's successor BG Smallpox w/ Rack, while I ran my version of Eggs along side it as a solitare deck. Now I'm glad to be playing some Cruel Control)
As for the bad/ulucky players around here, For the most part I assume some bad luck on my opponents with some plays, but I've been fairly decent at seeing 'the' play several times (ex, opp is laying a naya prison enchantment deck, he has blood moon out, he taps out to cast a spell, I resolve a Silumgar's COmmand to bounce the Blood Moon / Counter his Sphere of Safety, then bolt him to 5, and cast Cruel Ult next turn), and I luck out of bad situations, or just pray my opp's miss a response (If I go back to when I played vs a CoCo player, the guy forgot to sac a Kitchen Finks / Visera Seer during an Anger of the Gods, among a few other misplays, but watching him in a later round he played near perfect...)
My "Secrets" are mostly I play real bad cards... that somehow win me matches haha and I always have some fun playing this deck (I'm very chatty with opps and such, and they seem to help me out when they show me how they sideboard vs me haha). I know I'm not a top notch player, I make a fair number of mistakes (I mean, if you look at the list of decks I play
*
Creatures (5):
1 Keranos, God of Storms
4 Snapcaster Mage
Instants (26):
4 Anticipate
1 Counterflux
1 Countersquall
3 Cryptic Command
2 Electrolyze
1 Far // Away
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mana Leak
2 Spell Snare
1 Silumgar's Command
2 Terminate
1 Blood Crypt
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Cascade Bluffs
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Darkslick Shores
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
3 Polluted Delta
3 Steam Vents
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Sunken Ruins
2 Watery Grave
Sorceries (3):
2 Cruel Ultimatum
1 Damnation
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Counterflux
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Monastery Siege
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Rakdos Charm
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Slaughter Games
1 Sowing Salt
2 Thoughtseize
1 Vandalblast
Decks Playing:
(Win-Loss-Tie totals in FNM/Ptq/Gpt's)
Modern:
DredgeVine (10-3-0)
Latern Control (24-5-0)
Cruel Control (19-5-1)
Urza-Eggs (29-13-1)
8-Rack (13-5-0, Retired for now)
BG Loam Pox (with Rack) (15-5-1, Retired for now)
3 Land Belcher (4-2-0) Retired for good.
Artificer's Intuition Surfing
Prison Pox (8-3-0)
Solidarity (Instant High tide Storm)
Zombardment
Pauper:
Oops all Spells (2-0-0)
I understand that my take on the deck is a little extreme looking to put it mildly, but everyone dismises it as bad before even attempting a trial run with it. I guess to be honest it is a mix of a cruel control deck and a jund decck slapped together and you all aren't interested but I promise it does work.
I do think that I am open to making changes to the deck and working on the deck with Mr. Rotten has gotten me further into thinking and adjusting some choices but I'm not confidant enough to share a list that I know is still being tested because it definitely isn't ideal. There is also the point of no one tests anything really anyway, they just post what they think and tell you how their list is so much superior so there is that small tidbit.
The only things I can tell is that almost all of us agree on some spells that should be included in every list like...
3-4 snapcaster mage
1-2 electrolyze
2-3 Kolaghan's command
2 Cruel Ultimatum
3 Crytic Command
0-2 Damnation
4 Lightning bolt
2 mana leak
2 spell snare
2-3 Terminate
and some number around 25 lands...
That leaves you at least 8 slots that you can use in the main deck tomake it your own. Feel free to try out some weird ***** god knows I have...I have even tried Demonic Rising.
p.s. I still think Molten Rain sucks in our deck, but don't take it personally DoULikeMyUlt1m4tuM. We will agree to disagree.
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
A suggestion, try to overcompensate on English. Using aolspeak stuff like "ur" and incorrect capitalization just looks lazy and creates an impression that you're not really trying to communicate seriously. When you don't get the easy things right, it's a lot less plausible that ESL is the real barrier.
Twitch channel
GrixisGuru I think using Demonic Rising is hilarious and even viable lol.
I play modern everyday on MODO and in paper twice a week. Whenever new cards come out I'm eager to test them for this deck, I was excited when Kolaghan's Command was released and I thought it would be great in this deck.
I'm an Engineer by training so I'm always going to test crazy and new ideas before dismissing them.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
When I was playing a more draw go list at one time Demonic Rising gave me a reliable finisher that could close the game in a hurry...because we are often finishing a game using snapcaster mage or Vendilion clique for beatdowns so why not up our clock with a 5/5 demon...or use Tar Pit and swing for 3 get a 5/5 and then if they can't deal with said 5/5 get another one the following turn...everyone lauhged about it, but it did put in work.
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas