1.) I'm still going with the Tasigur/Gurmag Delve direction; just devoting less to the package; they are great on their own right and don't need to be dropped Turn 2 I don't think.
We have Terminates and Counters to manage most early bigs; and plenty of early spells and Fetches that make Tasigur and Gurmag easy a Turn 4 or 5 expectation.
2.) I'm opting for 3 Cruels; in testing although I know alot of people don't like Serum Visions; Serum Visions has actually been testing well and keeping the top deck live with either the Lands or Support. I've been smoothly hitting Turn 7 Cruel; and that's really what we want to be doing. Everything from Turns 1 - 6 is designed to Control/Answer and Stall your opponent. Once the first Cruel resolves; usually it's all good from there for us. So I'm going to try it.
3.) Keranos is back in my mainboard; I'm going to give him a REAL try. I've had it in my main before; and was always apprehensive to cast it on Turn 5 fearing alot of things that are quite frankly UNKNOWN because I'm unfamiliar with the format. And almost every time I feared "Something" and "Nothing" happened... I like Turn 5 Keranos I think more often then not; because then on Turn 6 and 7 he's going to help us possibly hit our Lands to ensure a Turn 7 Cruel. Also; having watched the Twitch Coverage of SCG: INV for Modern this week; Keranos just seems really boss and so I want to make sure I give it a fair shake and not discount it.
4.) My sideboard has some interesting different things; some of it is quite honestly either for TESTING or because I don't have EVERYTHING that I would like to have if it was a perfect world...
Flashfreeze --> I really really like this option; I had it in my list originally but then dropped it when I saw NO ONE running it. But the more and more I look at this card; and consider the meta game in which I play; I think Flashfreeze still could end up being my best sideboard slot. Hoses Zoo decks; Hoses the hell out of Burn decks; I plan to side out some of the narrow Counters for the 3 Flashfreezes to bolster the permission package in those matchups. I think it'll be really good.
Butcher's Glee --> An odd ball for sure!!! It almost was Jorubai Murk Lurker... LOL So I looked at all the Burn decks that have made Top 8s over the last few months; every single one of them run anywhere between 5 to 7 Enchantment/Artifact kill cards. ALL of which not only Destroy those permanents; but they also continue with the damage by doing additional damage too. So expecting that tapping out on Turn 5 for a Batterskull is going to save your life; I don't think that's a reasonable expectation. Sure; maybe you play it and you're lucky that they don't have 1 of their 5 to 7 cards to destroy it... The fact you're tapping out for the Batterskull really sets you back bad and you're playing right into their hands. I spoke to a Burn player at my shop and he agrees completely... So maybe I'm being mislead; but I think I'm right...
So I looked at all the options that were NON Art/Ench; mostly Instant; mostly Cheap; also looked at some creatures... And even Sorin Markov. Sure Sorin is expensive; but the fact he's gaining us 2 every turn he comes down is pretty good. But still; didn't go that route. The plan is; getting Butcher's Glee on a Blocking Tasigur or Gurmag; or a Attacking Gurmag or Tasigur; and gaining 7 to 8 life in one pinch. Then being able to Snapcaster it back to do it again. That's a 14 to 16 point possible swing.
Sure; alot of the burn decks run Skull Cracks too; but I like my chances VS 4 Skull Cracks with Butcher's Glee than a Tap Out Turn 5 Batterskull VS 5 to 8 Removal Spells for it. I think the odds are in my favor here...
With Jorubai Murk Lurker; I saw no 4 cost Creature Burn spells to kill it; we easily turn it into a 2/4 Creature. For 2 mana on Turn 4 after we untap with it; we start gaining 2 a turn while having 2 mana untapped for backup. I really do think this could be an option too... IF they want to kill it; they'll devote 2 Burn Spells; or Lose a Creature and a Burn spell to kill it. Then we Kolaghan's Command and/or CRUEL it back. When I drop Gurmags or Tasigurs; then I give one of those fatties Lifelink; and really start stabalizing well before CRUEL come down.
That's the point... We need the early life gain option so we can get to CRUEL; Cruel resolves and we are pretty much stable.
Tormod's Crypt --> I deal with Goryo's Vengeance decks; turn 1 or 2 drop Grisel or Emrakul into the GY and reanimate it and combo off... Also Mindslaver in Tron decks... The way I see it; if I drop this on Turn 1 or 2; that tells the Reanimation Deck that I have to combo off the other way; which plays into my Counter Spells. It may not be the best option; but it's a 0 cost option none the less and can tap and remove a graveyard without costing us anything. So I feel it's a decent option on short notice.
...everything else is either pretty easy to understand; or I've already explained it in another post......
I still got alot to learn about Modern; just kinda fumbling my way through it...
First 2 rounds was riddled with Mistakes; in the 2nd round however the Mistake cost me the Match.
So that was disappointing...
Oh and it as it turned out; another mistake was trying to go 3 CRUELS. IN the testing prior to the event the Visions, Cantrips, Mulldrifter, Keranos, Jace all helped to get me to 7 and Cruel consistently... But of course; come Event time; all that smoothness was GONE and I ran into lots of issues. So yea; 2 Cruels going forward from here.
I'm not even sure if it's worth to do a little report; but I will...
LOSS 0-2 VS Abzan Combo CoCo Zoo
-Both games he combos off; first game I know I kept a bad hand; and tapped out for a Tasigur at around Turn 4 or 5 and left him wide open to Combo off for Infinite Life.
-Game 2 he combo'ed off; BUT: this time I was smart enough to not tap out; had the removal in hand; but didn't see the combo till I let it "Resolve" then tried to kill the combo; and in response he combos off and goes Infinite.
-I learned alot about how this deck worked though; and I gotta believe that this matchup is INSANELY FAVORABLE for us with all our 2 Damage Burn Spells + Lightning Bolts + Terminates and our Counter Spells. Just feels like we are heavily stacked against alot of the creatures they're using; not to mention the Angers of the Gods and the Flashfreezes that I brought in against him.
-I just flat out didn't see how he would combo and just flat out fell asleep at the wheel with this one... #LessonsLearned
LOSS 1-2 VS BURN
-Game 1 he casts Boros Charm with 1 other card in his hand. I LEAK it; force him to tap the other 3 Lands to let it resolve; so he's tapped out but he has me to 1 life; he's sitting at 8; I battled through a few missed land drops; we are on Turn 8; I'm sitting at like 5 lands; so I'm way off CRUEL at this point; he passes the Turn; and suddenly it hit me.... I Lightning Bolt him EOT; Untap; hit him with Electrolyze then Draw; then I cast Serum Visions to DRAW again and SCRY 2. I see a Lightning Bolt on the SCRY; luckily I had a Jace in play so I down tick Jace and get the Bolt and finish the game.
-Game 2 was much much more uglier... The Flashfreezes, Spell Snares and Mana Leaks are putting in alot of work though!!! Snapcaster into Spell Snares... Yes please! I felt like I had complete control of the game; but it's still a close battle...
-Then; I made a FATAL Mistake... THE MISTAKE: So on his turn he casts Eidolon; I had 2 mana open and a Snapcaster in my hand with a Jace. No other answer to deal with Eidolon; so I in response cast Snapcaster targeting NOTHING so that I could prevent him from attacking me and gave me a blocker atleast. Knowing I can't do Snapcaster with Eidolon resolved; so I do it. I think that was the CORRECT part of the play.
-I untapped; took my turn; drew a CRUEL. But I was 1 Red Source away from being able to cast Cruel to stabilize and win. So what do I do? The only stupidest thing possible; I cast JACE; and UP TICK????? I up ticked thinking it would make his Eidolon Smaller making it so that my Snapcaster lived... We all know that won't be the case either way; but I made the mistake an Up Ticked. I should of Down Ticked; which would of gotten me the Red Source I needed THAT TURN. I would of had to play it Tapped though to take no damage but that would of given me CRUEL the next turn. So then he takes his turn; bolts me; drops me to 2. I take my Turn; draw my Red Source; and I can't play it UNTAPPED or I lose. So I'm left with the decision to play it Tapped and Pass again. He of course top decks the Boros Charm to steal the game.
-To be fair; I stole Game 1 and he stole Game 2.... but yea; and Game 3 I was stuck on 3 lands and removal with no Blue Sources. Probably a BAD KEEP.
WIN 2-1 VS Goryo's Vengeance Combo
-Game 1; combo'ed off Turn 3; GG.
-Game 2; I bring in the Tormod's Crypts; the Dispels; Counterflux; Slaughter Games. I get the Dispels; and Spell Snares; and Mana Leaks; I somehow got into a Zone even after my Round 2 Mistakes; and played perfectly; countering the right stuff; answering the right stuff; GG.
-Game 3; much of the same; although it's debatable apparently a few of the decisions I made that ended up working out; but I still think I had the right line of play and thought process.
So it's hard for me to truly tell what I have as far as a deck yet because I'm still making alot of mistakes... but; when I play things out in my head; and if I had done things right; I feel like all 3 of those decks I coulda beat.
VS the Abzan Coco Zoo Deck; we got so much removal main board that hates them out... Should be a walk in the park?
VS the Burn deck; the Flashfreezes were amazing; I admit in GM3 although I was mana screwed; I had the Butcher's Glee in my hand and kept although I prob shoulda mulled. I hate mulling..... I really wanted so bad to see what that card could do.... I didn't get to see how it would do; I was mana screwed and didn't get a creature to play; so I don't know if it would of worked. In hindsight after the match; seeing what he was gripping; I do sincerely believe it would of worked had I gottan any of my bigs to drop on the board. Perhaps I need a Lifegain option that doesn't require the Creature; maybe just some Instant Speed spell that gains life on it's own... I sincerely believe that Ench/Art Life Gain is not the option though even still. But the Flashfreezes were boss.
VS the Combo Deck; I again feel there's alot of hate here and we can stop that deck... The issue is if it combos off Turn 1 which it can.... I don't know how we stop a Turn 1 Combo Off. The only way I think is with Tormod's Crypt; but if they're using the Breech Combo; then I think we're just screwed.
I'm happy with what I saw of the deck still; I think once I get through the growing pains of being a newbie to the format; things will get much better.
I still got alot to learn about Modern; just kinda fumbling my way through it...
First 2 rounds was riddled with Mistakes; in the 2nd round however the Mistake cost me the Match.
So that was disappointing...
Oh and it as it turned out; another mistake was trying to go 3 CRUELS. IN the testing prior to the event the Visions, Cantrips, Mulldrifter, Keranos, Jace all helped to get me to 7 and Cruel consistently... But of course; come Event time; all that smoothness was GONE and I ran into lots of issues. So yea; 2 Cruels going forward from here.
I'm not even sure if it's worth to do a little report; but I will...
LOSS 0-2 VS Abzan Combo CoCo Zoo
-Both games he combos off; first game I know I kept a bad hand; and tapped out for a Tasigur at around Turn 4 or 5 and left him wide open to Combo off for Infinite Life.
-Game 2 he combo'ed off; BUT: this time I was smart enough to not tap out; had the removal in hand; but didn't see the combo till I let it "Resolve" then tried to kill the combo; and in response he combos off and goes Infinite.
-I learned alot about how this deck worked though; and I gotta believe that this matchup is INSANELY FAVORABLE for us with all our 2 Damage Burn Spells + Lightning Bolts + Terminates and our Counter Spells. Just feels like we are heavily stacked against alot of the creatures they're using; not to mention the Angers of the Gods and the Flashfreezes that I brought in against him.
-I just flat out didn't see how he would combo and just flat out fell asleep at the wheel with this one... #LessonsLearned
LOSS 1-2 VS BURN
-Game 1 he casts Boros Charm with 1 other card in his hand. I LEAK it; force him to tap the other 3 Lands to let it resolve; so he's tapped out but he has me to 1 life; he's sitting at 8; I battled through a few missed land drops; we are on Turn 8; I'm sitting at like 5 lands; so I'm way off CRUEL at this point; he passes the Turn; and suddenly it hit me.... I Lightning Bolt him EOT; Untap; hit him with Electrolyze then Draw; then I cast Serum Visions to DRAW again and SCRY 2. I see a Lightning Bolt on the SCRY; luckily I had a Jace in play so I down tick Jace and get the Bolt and finish the game.
-Game 2 was much much more uglier... The Flashfreezes, Spell Snares and Mana Leaks are putting in alot of work though!!! Snapcaster into Spell Snares... Yes please! I felt like I had complete control of the game; but it's still a close battle...
-Then; I made a FATAL Mistake... THE MISTAKE: So on his turn he casts Eidolon; I had 2 mana open and a Snapcaster in my hand with a Jace. No other answer to deal with Eidolon; so I in response cast Snapcaster targeting NOTHING so that I could prevent him from attacking me and gave me a blocker atleast. Knowing I can't do Snapcaster with Eidolon resolved; so I do it. I think that was the CORRECT part of the play.
-I untapped; took my turn; drew a CRUEL. But I was 1 Red Source away from being able to cast Cruel to stabilize and win. So what do I do? The only stupidest thing possible; I cast JACE; and UP TICK????? I up ticked thinking it would make his Eidolon Smaller making it so that my Snapcaster lived... We all know that won't be the case either way; but I made the mistake an Up Ticked. I should of Down Ticked; which would of gotten me the Red Source I needed THAT TURN. I would of had to play it Tapped though to take no damage but that would of given me CRUEL the next turn. So then he takes his turn; bolts me; drops me to 2. I take my Turn; draw my Red Source; and I can't play it UNTAPPED or I lose. So I'm left with the decision to play it Tapped and Pass again. He of course top decks the Boros Charm to steal the game.
-To be fair; I stole Game 1 and he stole Game 2.... but yea; and Game 3 I was stuck on 3 lands and removal with no Blue Sources. Probably a BAD KEEP.
WIN 2-1 VS Goryo's Vengeance Combo
-Game 1; combo'ed off Turn 3; GG.
-Game 2; I bring in the Tormod's Crypts; the Dispels; Counterflux; Slaughter Games. I get the Dispels; and Spell Snares; and Mana Leaks; I somehow got into a Zone even after my Round 2 Mistakes; and played perfectly; countering the right stuff; answering the right stuff; GG.
-Game 3; much of the same; although it's debatable apparently a few of the decisions I made that ended up working out; but I still think I had the right line of play and thought process.
So it's hard for me to truly tell what I have as far as a deck yet because I'm still making alot of mistakes... but; when I play things out in my head; and if I had done things right; I feel like all 3 of those decks I coulda beat.
VS the Abzan Coco Zoo Deck; we got so much removal main board that hates them out... Should be a walk in the park?
VS the Burn deck; the Flashfreezes were amazing; I admit in GM3 although I was mana screwed; I had the Butcher's Glee in my hand and kept although I prob shoulda mulled. I hate mulling..... I really wanted so bad to see what that card could do.... I didn't get to see how it would do; I was mana screwed and didn't get a creature to play; so I don't know if it would of worked. In hindsight after the match; seeing what he was gripping; I do sincerely believe it would of worked had I gottan any of my bigs to drop on the board. Perhaps I need a Lifegain option that doesn't require the Creature; maybe just some Instant Speed spell that gains life on it's own... I sincerely believe that Ench/Art Life Gain is not the option though even still. But the Flashfreezes were boss.
VS the Combo Deck; I again feel there's alot of hate here and we can stop that deck... The issue is if it combos off Turn 1 which it can.... I don't know how we stop a Turn 1 Combo Off. The only way I think is with Tormod's Crypt; but if they're using the Breech Combo; then I think we're just screwed.
I'm happy with what I saw of the deck still; I think once I get through the growing pains of being a newbie to the format; things will get much better.
Sorry to hear about the results, but I agree, once you're more in tune with modern, it'll be much, much better off for you
I also feel we have a great matchup vs CoCo (Not sure about the Elves version yet, but the combo one for sure). I was also considering a few Flashfreezes for the board, specially if more burn/elves/etc show up.
Another good result for ur deck .
It Ran very Well. But what did u Think about another mass removal Maindeck as I wrote yesterday?
And about iok Maindeck I Also hate them at top deck but since I putted back in 3 iok My early game seems better.
I really don't feel a second maindeck boardwipe is the right answer. I mean, with all the 1 for 1 trades/counters I have, I want to be avoiding tapping out as much as I can on my own turn.
As for IoK's, Glad it's working for you, I still will not be playing it in my version, at all. My early game is good.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Make sure you bleed the fine print.
Decks Playing:
(Win-Loss-Tie totals in FNM/Ptq/Gpt's)
Modern:
DredgeVine (10-3-0)
Latern Control (24-5-0)
Cruel Control (19-5-1)
Urza-Eggs (29-13-1)
8-Rack (13-5-0, Retired for now)
BG Loam Pox (with Rack) (15-5-1, Retired for now)
3 Land Belcher (4-2-0) Retired for good.
I talked with people and the idea came out of trying a Blood Moon/vedalken Shackles build with more basics ... not sure about this but might give it a try online.
Not sure about Extirpate either ... felt useless a lot but shyned when it was good.
Thanks for reading !
If you look at like the last 20 SCG Events for Modern; Grixis has had about 3 different versions going for it.
1.) Twin
2.) Delver
3.) Blood Moon/Shackles
BUT: alot of us are on the belief that Grixis is good because of Kolaghan's Command so the Shells stay fairly close to the same; but the Win Conditions can be different.
Me personally; I don't like Blood Moon Mainboard; but yea it's definitely a Deck.
If we opt for any of the NON Cruel lists; I think I'd move in the direction of the Young Pyromancer, Olivia, Keranos, Tasigur list myself.
I think the Young Pyromancer Control lists are actually really well position and insanely flexible with Kolaghan's Command.
BUT: With that being said; this is a CRUEL thread; and I'm back in Modern because I wanted to play my favorite Magic card of all time -- CRUEL; so I'm not giving in to the peer pressure or giving up on Cruel so soon to me being back into Modern.
I personally think; if you look at the Modern events SCG has listed over this past week; there's alot of new Grixis CONTROL lists that have popped up; I think it's a matter of time before people start trying to jam Cruels to see if it can work.
I think we're just ahead of the game.... KUDOS to us!
And with that being said; I'm settling; have settled on this list now... For the most part the list is the same; but I was swapping a few cards here and there all around but now I'm settled.
The sideboard is pretty settled and stable now too...
I too have been making alot of mistakes that have cost me in Modern already too; but when I re-play things in my head I believe I had the advantage everytime had I just played things correctly.
So I need to grind Modern; learn the format; and it helps to have a stable list and not be taking a knee jerk reaction every week and dismantling and re-building...
NOTES:
1.) Shadow of Doubt I've been known to run x1 mainboard; and the other slot this past event was a 3rd Cruel; which turned out to be tooooo greedy. I did the math; and instead of a 3rd Cruel I wanted another 1 or 2 CMC Cantrip/Draw or Counterspell. I decided I didn't want another Counter; so I wanted a Cantrip/Draw spell. So I was going to go with x2 Anticipate to go with the x4 Serum Visions and the rest of the other Cantrips/Draw. But then I decided that Anticipate really just Cantrips; it replaces itself; sure it digs down 3 cards deep to replace it self; but I felt I wanted something that was more powerful and that could help me in my Matchups. So I opted for Shadow of Doubt x2 in the slot instead. Shadow of Doubt still cantrips; sure it doesn't dig 3 cards deep; but what it does do in many situations is it stifles an opponent from Searching their Library... Whether it be they are Fetching a Land to Color Fix themselves; or they are Searching for UrzaTron; or the Artifact or Wincondition to combo off. Or they're Transmutting... So you're stopping them early from doing that and then Cantripping. I feel that mode of Shadow of Doubt makes it better than just digging 3 cards deep and then replacing itself. Sure there maybe times I'm going to just Cycle Shadow of Doubt and that's ok. Because then we have Snapcaster; and the moment your opponent plays a Fetch; or plays Search Spell; stifle it and Cantrip again. I think the flexibility is pretty great; and the moment you stop that search can really give us the time we need for Cruels. Add in the fact that if we stop them from Searching early; we are now pushing some of these decks to combo off a little later which plays better with the counter permission suite.
2.) Tasigur, the Golden Fang + Gurmag Angler I know the Tasigur/Gurmag package is a debated topic; while some like it and are running it; others don't. I get that; I think there's merit of both arguments. I'm staying in the Tasigur/Gurmag camp; for now. I haven't given my list a fair shot because of the mistakes I keep making; so I'm going to keep grinding it out till I feel more comfortable with the format and I can truly evaluate my card choices properly. I do know that everytime I cast Tasigur; or Gurmag; I'm dropping out a big enough creature that blocks the heck out of Goyf or other bigger creatures... even smaller creatures; it's a road block. Perhaps one of my issues when I play Zoo is I focus a bit too heavily on Goyf and need to focus more on the COMBO. At any rate; I really like what both of these guys bring; and then in the longer Grindy games; what Tasigur does to keep giving us fuel to get there.
Other than that; everything else stays pretty much the same...
Mainboard Considerations: I picked up a few of these; I want to hear thoughts if you guys don't mind?
The only thing about this deck that I feel "CAN" be inconsistent or awkward; other than me just flat out being dumb and making mistakes...
...it's the COUNTER Permission suite
I've gone back quite of few pages back to see what other things have been discussed before we got here; I admit I didn't read every page there's over 100.... but somethings caught my eye. Spell Blast - I like Spell Blast; seems pretty flexible and gets stronger as the game goes.
Disrupting Shoal - My favorite card out of these 3 potential considerations. This can be a Turn 0 counter spell. For example; your opponent plays Goryo's Vengeance and tries to combo off Turn 1; I remove say Shadow of Doubt or Mana Leak/Remand and counter the spell and prevent a Turn 1 win. Or how about your opponent thinks the coast is clear to cast a Expedition Map; and I remove a Serum Visions or Spell Snare to counter the 1 CMC Artifact. There's many examples of things that can happen; and let's be honest too; as the game goes a bit longer; it's reasonable to expect just straight up casting this to counter alot of things.
Logic Knot - I'm not sure how much of a fan I am of this; I seen Grimble running it; because I'm already running Tasigur/Gurmag; it could delve those out... But then; Logic Knot could go along way to assist in keeping the GY cleaner so that I have greater control over what Tasigur brings back. But again; perhaps we don't even need to Delve with this; just cast it straight up as the game goes longer.
I picked up a few of these each; I'd like to give them each a try; not all of them at the same time; I feel like they each would take the same slot that I free up for them... I'd probably drop down to 2 Mana Leaks; and maybe 1 Spell Snare to make room for any 2 of the above and try them out. I'm leaning more towards Disrupting Shoal for my list.
SIDEBOARD: As I said; I feel my sideboard is now going to pretty much stay settled; I'm happy with everything I have... one area I think I may need to improve perhaps might be the Land Destruction; but the way I see it; I don't know that I want to go too all in on Land Destruction against some of those special decks like TRON or Amulet because they're hella resilient and if we focus too much on their lands and controlling their lands; we still end up getting beat down by a Thragtusk or losing to a Karn anyways. So I wanted to becareful a bit... with Shadow of Doubt mainboard; the other counters; bringing in some other things; I feel as though I can control things to some degree; while digging and landing haymakers like Slaughter Games or Sowing Salts to nail em.
All in all; even with my mistakes; I've seen some really good things from the list and I'm still hella encouraged that I'm going down a good path for this deck.
Sorry about the bad run at the PPTQ. But, we are control players. Control the things you can. Not making dexterity errors (shuffling your opponents cards poorly, continuing to hold your "hand" in one hand while scrying with the other) is something we can control with practice and discipline, and so we should control them. We play control, so we end up making far more decisions than most people in a match, which means we should be more practiced at the self discipline of making the "correct" and "safe" choice each time, even if we're pretty sure nothing can really go wrong. If you culture the self discipline to play control, you have the self discipline to make the changes to avoid stupid mistakes (dexterity errors, decklist errors, failing to desideboard, etc).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Unfortunatly if a control player make a mistake too often it cost to him the game/match.
for that we need to test much then another player, and we need too much focus in every play and move.
During this week I continue to test my new deck with few artifacts and 3x Thirst for knowledge.
On saturday I will play a small 10$ tournament , after which I will decide which Kindle of List I play on sunday at PPTQ . (I will write a report of both)
Atm I m really happy with thirstList but I don't test it so much. And for SURE an Anger of the Gods md will be better then an engineered explosives, but I need some artifacts and I don't know what leave for my mainDeckAnger.
I don't feel like having all these Artifacts that really don't do much against our opponents just to make 1 Card better is really worth going down that road?
IDK: maybe I'm wrong.
But hey; I mean if it works for you it works; I'm not one to be negative about anyones ideas or thought process if it's working for you.
It's just def not for me; like the Tasigur/Gurmag stuff isn't for you.
Let us know how it goes... I'm interested to hear.
Granted it's not the best draw option but you could try using Sift Through Sands and drop the artifact package. There is also you know Forbidden Alchemy which I feel is criminally underplayed in this format considering we want control over our Graveyard and it is never going to drop something into the graveyard that we can't choose to keep and it naturally has flashback for later. For those of us who choose to play Tasigur, The Golden Fang it almost guarantees that you will have a one mana Tasigur and the ability to hold up an instant speed response.
Pentad Prism could be interesting if we had some way to use it after it's mana is used. Like with Trading post ?
The idea of using Disrupting Shoal also came up, but I feel it would be better in a Esper Draw-go Shell with Esper Charm.
They have more card draw to make use of it.
I think if you are going that far into the artifact plan you can't not play Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas. The card is to good at turning your artifacts into 5/5 beaters. I really think that is another deck entirely though.
I just think Cruel Ultimatum is too restrictive to be competitive enough, mostly because Blood Moon ruin all plans if it get past. And other reasons mentioned before.
Even if I totaly love the spell, and I think it's powerfull.
Abusing it in EDH is fun for exemple
I kind of disagree about the "blood Moon just kills us" mentality. I've outplayed vs several resolved Blood Moons, and I admit, it's not easy, but with my list atleast, you can bounce the Moon (Silumgar's Command), plus we can just counter a Blood Moon on turn 3 generally... Unless you're playing vs some sick person with 4 Spirit Guides in hand to pay for mana leak...
As for it being too restrictive, it's really just 1-2 finishers (I prefer 2x copies myself, but I've seen success with 1x) out of X finishers (Batterskull, Keranos, Creeping Tar Pit, etc). Thats just my thoughts though, I've yet to just lose due to Blood Moon resolving, or because Cruel Ultimatum is 'too hard to cast' ((Believe it or not, you ARE allowed to side it out))
As for a more artifact based build, I'd likely run 1x of Tezzeret Seeker so we can -X for: Darksteel Cidatel, Engineered Explosives, Crucible of Worlds (assuming it's played), etc. Though, I'd just rather play Tez-control deck with artifacts and not a Cruel style.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Make sure you bleed the fine print.
Decks Playing:
(Win-Loss-Tie totals in FNM/Ptq/Gpt's)
Modern:
DredgeVine (10-3-0)
Latern Control (24-5-0)
Cruel Control (19-5-1)
Urza-Eggs (29-13-1)
8-Rack (13-5-0, Retired for now)
BG Loam Pox (with Rack) (15-5-1, Retired for now)
3 Land Belcher (4-2-0) Retired for good.
The idea is more of a Vedalken Shackles + Blood Moon in sb build using the fact that vedalken is an artefacts and batterkull too to add a small artefacts suite.
I want to run Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas because he can make a 5/5 the turn he comes in, that the other can't do. Plus he's cheaper.
But the tutor effect is good cuz I can answer with relic or needle or even engineered for 0 against souls.
I should've elaborated, I meant 1x Seeker, along with Agent of Bolas , but I digress. There's really no 'cheaper' argument, as both cost 4 cmc. Seeker I'd like in the deck much more in sideboard games, as you can fetch out several different cards to aid you, whereas the 5/5 can be path'd, or otherwise removed. Both are good for the style of deck, 'cept I'd much rather Bolas' Ult lol
If you can show a version of this 'arifact-combo-control' deck that's consistent in both speeding out Cruel's and not just flopping about like a fish I'd be interested, but it just sounds like a sketchy idea. I can see the odd game of an early Cruel Ult, but it's likely better off you just winning via 5/5's. Tezz Ult's, etc.
Again, this is my thoughts, and I just see Tez / Cruel Ult being friends without benefits (sure they can sit in the same deck, but each has a different strategy altogether) but please, feel free to continue the list, I wouldn't mind testing a 'working' version (I tried brewing it, but just dropped Red altogether and just went artifact heavy control, which I think is the biggest issue, Red's not much of a helpful color for Tezzeret)
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Make sure you bleed the fine print.
Decks Playing:
(Win-Loss-Tie totals in FNM/Ptq/Gpt's)
Modern:
DredgeVine (10-3-0)
Latern Control (24-5-0)
Cruel Control (19-5-1)
Urza-Eggs (29-13-1)
8-Rack (13-5-0, Retired for now)
BG Loam Pox (with Rack) (15-5-1, Retired for now)
3 Land Belcher (4-2-0) Retired for good.
I don't want to play a tezzyDeck .. I just want the Best cardAdvantage ( Small cmc ) in this format in my control deck
Yeah that's the idea and instant speed pls.
@Dwarf: Nah the deck I talked about doesn't work that much .. Well you could alway play 4 Cruel Ultimatum with 4 Snapcaster Mage and cantrips + artefacts to ramp fast.
There is that Travis Woo deck that can cast Cruel n turn 4 and then the rest of the game until it's opponent just dies using Spellweaver Helix. Something like imprint Raven's Crime and Cruel Ultimatum Cast Raven's crime and a Cruel for B plus discarding a land.
I just think Cruel Ultimatum is too restrictive to be competitive enough, mostly because Blood Moon ruin all plans if it get past. And other reasons mentioned before.
Even if I totaly love the spell and I think it's powerfull.
Abusing it in EDH is fun for exemple (Like with Izzet Chronarch,Archaeomancer and Mnemonic Wall with wraths and time walks in Jeleva, keep wrathing the board and playing free spells while recurring a cruel when you can tons of fun for me at least ...)
EDIT: What do you mean by "can't be replace" ?
You do realize this is a Modern Category; and a Cruel Control thread right?
And to your points; Cruel Ultimatum is still a powerful tool I agree; and once it resolves it still carries the weight of being a death blow in any matchups.
Generally you resolve the first one; your chances of winning are much much higher and it leads right into the 2nd casting of the spell.
Also; let's just call it what it is for some of us too... it's the challenge of casting it and taking over the game that is the thrill.
It's such a powerful card; it's a TRUE Control win condition... control the game for 6 Turns; jam a spell that completely and utterly shifts the game so drastically that we now are on path to victory.
IDK; I mean I'm on this Thread cuz Cruel is my favorite card; and I'm developing a list with Cruels.... isn't that the point?
As far as Blood Moon; I've analyzed and researched and dug dug dug... Blood Moon doesn't really bother us till we get to Turn 7 and want to cast Cruel.
Atleast for my list; I have other things going for me besides Cruel.
Tasigur, the Golden Fang; Gurmag Angler; Keranos, God of Storms; BURN... This is a big reason why I have opted to keep these packages; it provides the deck much needed midrange game just in case the Cruel Path doesn't pan out. Not to mention it also provides alot of utility to go LONG if we get pushed to that direction.
I don't always need to win by resolving Cruel and I think that's the best way to play the deck.
And fact is; I can cast all of those above threat while still playing around Blood Moon. All those Creatures I just named; Only need just 1 Swamp and 1 Island to resolve all of those.
That's it...
Come time for Turn 7; do a EOT Turn 6 Cryptic Command; Bouncing Blood Moon to their hand; into Turn 7 CRUEL and force them to discard it.
Blood Moon honestly doesn't feel like it'll be that bad ever if we're playing our game right; and really that's what Modern is all about... skilled lines of play and impeccable decision making...
I've learned alot by studying how we play around it... if I see Red on my opponents side; I just plan immediately from the start that they're going to Blood Moon me.
So I line up Islands and Swamps any chance I can fetch them... Serum Visions and the SCRY Action certainly also helps to get Multiple Islands/Swamps Basics.
Blood Moon although annoying is just that; an annoyance and I just know to shift my focus for awhile.... it's just that simple.
I'm to the point now that I"m feeling very comfortable against any matchups that intend to try and BLOOD MOON hate us out... because generally if that's their plan; they think once they resolve that; they can rest on that plan and put too much confidence in the card... meanwhile we still keep plugging away; killing a creature here or there; not really being forced to do much of anything... because some of the decks that play Blood Moon also end up hurting themselves too... It's a chance they take... we keep plugging away; still able to drop my threats like Tasigur; Gurmag; Keranos... needing only 1 Island to sit behind that and protect.... and sure; I hit my Engineered Explosives and destroy it; or Bounce Blood Moon and CRUEL.
I welcome the tech... just like Grafdigger's Cage; buddy of mine thinks that really hurts us... lol It doesn't.
Blood Moon is very easy to beat. Only the inexperienced fear the card.
Many of my opponents have locked themselves out the game trying to stop me with blood moon. I just cackle and resolve Batterskull with my basic islands and swamps.
If you run 8 fetches then blood moon should never be a concern, just play around it.
Oh and I was right about Kolaghan's Command being good, it is sold out everywhere and skyrocketing in price.
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Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
I was not trying to put you down Grimble. That comment was meant for the general audience that may fear Blood Moon.
You have enough experience to handle a resolved blood moon without being rattled. The only real difference between online and paper is remembering triggers and knowing the game state, so I don't doubt your abilities.
Cruel Control is never going to be a tier 1 tournament slaying deck, that is a fact. This is just my fun deck for modern.
Don't get rattled by comments made on the internet, it is quite difficult to detect sarcasm and competitive banter on here.
Whether its in this thread or the other grixis thread lets all be courteous and maybe use /s or a to avoid squabbles.
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Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
I was not trying to put you down Grimble. That comment was meant for the general audience that may fear Blood Moon.
You have enough experience to handle a resolved blood moon without being rattled. The only real difference between online and paper is remembering triggers and knowing the game state, so I don't doubt your abilities.
Cruel Control is never going to be a tier 1 tournament slaying deck, that is a fact. This is just my fun deck for modern.
Don't get rattled by comments made on the internet, it is quite difficult to detect sarcasm and competitive banter on here.
Whether its in this thread or the other grixis thread lets all be courteous and maybe use /s or a to avoid squabbles.
To be fair the online meta is always so filled with burn decks i don't know how this deck is ever winning online outside of a good curve of lands and about 6 or more ways to counterspell something.
I play online as well and I'm usually packing Dragon's Claw with me. Grimble might have some super secret tech for burn that he/she does not want to share.
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Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
I play online as well and I'm usually packing Dragon's Claw with me. Grimble might have some super secret tech for burn that he/she does not want to share.
I realize it's the main card people use to combat burn...but I hate that card. It just does literal nothing in many of our other matches and if I can't win the burn match another way I personally will switch to Esper until burn dies down. I do think that Flashfreeze goes a long ways to helping us in that match up along with batterskull if we can stillafford to play thatt card with kolaghan's command seeing an ever increasing amount of play.
so I know no one like my tap out Grixis list....but all crtiicism's neagative or positive shall be considered and thanks for any that take time to reply.
Here's what I got for my latest list...
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Tasigur, The Golden Fang
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Mulldrifter
Spells: 25
3 Cruel Ultimatum
3 Terminate
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Electrolyze
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Cryptic Command
3 Mana Leak
1 Remand
2 Spell Snare
4 Serum Visions
1 Shadow of Doubt
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
Lands: 25
2 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
1 Drowned Catacomb
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Dragonskull Summit
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Island
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Slaughter Games
1 Counterflux
2 Dispel
3 Flashfreeze
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Sowing Salt
3 Anger of the Gods
1 Butcher's Glee
1.) I'm still going with the Tasigur/Gurmag Delve direction; just devoting less to the package; they are great on their own right and don't need to be dropped Turn 2 I don't think.
We have Terminates and Counters to manage most early bigs; and plenty of early spells and Fetches that make Tasigur and Gurmag easy a Turn 4 or 5 expectation.
2.) I'm opting for 3 Cruels; in testing although I know alot of people don't like Serum Visions; Serum Visions has actually been testing well and keeping the top deck live with either the Lands or Support. I've been smoothly hitting Turn 7 Cruel; and that's really what we want to be doing. Everything from Turns 1 - 6 is designed to Control/Answer and Stall your opponent. Once the first Cruel resolves; usually it's all good from there for us. So I'm going to try it.
3.) Keranos is back in my mainboard; I'm going to give him a REAL try. I've had it in my main before; and was always apprehensive to cast it on Turn 5 fearing alot of things that are quite frankly UNKNOWN because I'm unfamiliar with the format. And almost every time I feared "Something" and "Nothing" happened... I like Turn 5 Keranos I think more often then not; because then on Turn 6 and 7 he's going to help us possibly hit our Lands to ensure a Turn 7 Cruel. Also; having watched the Twitch Coverage of SCG: INV for Modern this week; Keranos just seems really boss and so I want to make sure I give it a fair shake and not discount it.
4.) My sideboard has some interesting different things; some of it is quite honestly either for TESTING or because I don't have EVERYTHING that I would like to have if it was a perfect world...
Flashfreeze --> I really really like this option; I had it in my list originally but then dropped it when I saw NO ONE running it. But the more and more I look at this card; and consider the meta game in which I play; I think Flashfreeze still could end up being my best sideboard slot. Hoses Zoo decks; Hoses the hell out of Burn decks; I plan to side out some of the narrow Counters for the 3 Flashfreezes to bolster the permission package in those matchups. I think it'll be really good.
Butcher's Glee --> An odd ball for sure!!! It almost was Jorubai Murk Lurker... LOL So I looked at all the Burn decks that have made Top 8s over the last few months; every single one of them run anywhere between 5 to 7 Enchantment/Artifact kill cards. ALL of which not only Destroy those permanents; but they also continue with the damage by doing additional damage too. So expecting that tapping out on Turn 5 for a Batterskull is going to save your life; I don't think that's a reasonable expectation. Sure; maybe you play it and you're lucky that they don't have 1 of their 5 to 7 cards to destroy it... The fact you're tapping out for the Batterskull really sets you back bad and you're playing right into their hands. I spoke to a Burn player at my shop and he agrees completely... So maybe I'm being mislead; but I think I'm right...
So I looked at all the options that were NON Art/Ench; mostly Instant; mostly Cheap; also looked at some creatures... And even Sorin Markov. Sure Sorin is expensive; but the fact he's gaining us 2 every turn he comes down is pretty good. But still; didn't go that route. The plan is; getting Butcher's Glee on a Blocking Tasigur or Gurmag; or a Attacking Gurmag or Tasigur; and gaining 7 to 8 life in one pinch. Then being able to Snapcaster it back to do it again. That's a 14 to 16 point possible swing.
Sure; alot of the burn decks run Skull Cracks too; but I like my chances VS 4 Skull Cracks with Butcher's Glee than a Tap Out Turn 5 Batterskull VS 5 to 8 Removal Spells for it. I think the odds are in my favor here...
With Jorubai Murk Lurker; I saw no 4 cost Creature Burn spells to kill it; we easily turn it into a 2/4 Creature. For 2 mana on Turn 4 after we untap with it; we start gaining 2 a turn while having 2 mana untapped for backup. I really do think this could be an option too... IF they want to kill it; they'll devote 2 Burn Spells; or Lose a Creature and a Burn spell to kill it. Then we Kolaghan's Command and/or CRUEL it back. When I drop Gurmags or Tasigurs; then I give one of those fatties Lifelink; and really start stabalizing well before CRUEL come down.
That's the point... We need the early life gain option so we can get to CRUEL; Cruel resolves and we are pretty much stable.
Tormod's Crypt --> I deal with Goryo's Vengeance decks; turn 1 or 2 drop Grisel or Emrakul into the GY and reanimate it and combo off... Also Mindslaver in Tron decks... The way I see it; if I drop this on Turn 1 or 2; that tells the Reanimation Deck that I have to combo off the other way; which plays into my Counter Spells. It may not be the best option; but it's a 0 cost option none the less and can tap and remove a graveyard without costing us anything. So I feel it's a decent option on short notice.
...everything else is either pretty easy to understand; or I've already explained it in another post......
/Cheers!
I still got alot to learn about Modern; just kinda fumbling my way through it...
First 2 rounds was riddled with Mistakes; in the 2nd round however the Mistake cost me the Match.
So that was disappointing...
Oh and it as it turned out; another mistake was trying to go 3 CRUELS. IN the testing prior to the event the Visions, Cantrips, Mulldrifter, Keranos, Jace all helped to get me to 7 and Cruel consistently... But of course; come Event time; all that smoothness was GONE and I ran into lots of issues. So yea; 2 Cruels going forward from here.
Third round I kicked some Goryo's Vengeance butt... LOL
I'm not even sure if it's worth to do a little report; but I will...
LOSS 0-2 VS Abzan Combo CoCo Zoo
-Both games he combos off; first game I know I kept a bad hand; and tapped out for a Tasigur at around Turn 4 or 5 and left him wide open to Combo off for Infinite Life.
-Game 2 he combo'ed off; BUT: this time I was smart enough to not tap out; had the removal in hand; but didn't see the combo till I let it "Resolve" then tried to kill the combo; and in response he combos off and goes Infinite.
-I learned alot about how this deck worked though; and I gotta believe that this matchup is INSANELY FAVORABLE for us with all our 2 Damage Burn Spells + Lightning Bolts + Terminates and our Counter Spells. Just feels like we are heavily stacked against alot of the creatures they're using; not to mention the Angers of the Gods and the Flashfreezes that I brought in against him.
-I just flat out didn't see how he would combo and just flat out fell asleep at the wheel with this one... #LessonsLearned
LOSS 1-2 VS BURN
-Game 1 he casts Boros Charm with 1 other card in his hand. I LEAK it; force him to tap the other 3 Lands to let it resolve; so he's tapped out but he has me to 1 life; he's sitting at 8; I battled through a few missed land drops; we are on Turn 8; I'm sitting at like 5 lands; so I'm way off CRUEL at this point; he passes the Turn; and suddenly it hit me.... I Lightning Bolt him EOT; Untap; hit him with Electrolyze then Draw; then I cast Serum Visions to DRAW again and SCRY 2. I see a Lightning Bolt on the SCRY; luckily I had a Jace in play so I down tick Jace and get the Bolt and finish the game.
-Game 2 was much much more uglier... The Flashfreezes, Spell Snares and Mana Leaks are putting in alot of work though!!! Snapcaster into Spell Snares... Yes please! I felt like I had complete control of the game; but it's still a close battle...
-Then; I made a FATAL Mistake... THE MISTAKE: So on his turn he casts Eidolon; I had 2 mana open and a Snapcaster in my hand with a Jace. No other answer to deal with Eidolon; so I in response cast Snapcaster targeting NOTHING so that I could prevent him from attacking me and gave me a blocker atleast. Knowing I can't do Snapcaster with Eidolon resolved; so I do it. I think that was the CORRECT part of the play.
-I untapped; took my turn; drew a CRUEL. But I was 1 Red Source away from being able to cast Cruel to stabilize and win. So what do I do? The only stupidest thing possible; I cast JACE; and UP TICK????? I up ticked thinking it would make his Eidolon Smaller making it so that my Snapcaster lived... We all know that won't be the case either way; but I made the mistake an Up Ticked. I should of Down Ticked; which would of gotten me the Red Source I needed THAT TURN. I would of had to play it Tapped though to take no damage but that would of given me CRUEL the next turn. So then he takes his turn; bolts me; drops me to 2. I take my Turn; draw my Red Source; and I can't play it UNTAPPED or I lose. So I'm left with the decision to play it Tapped and Pass again. He of course top decks the Boros Charm to steal the game.
-To be fair; I stole Game 1 and he stole Game 2.... but yea; and Game 3 I was stuck on 3 lands and removal with no Blue Sources. Probably a BAD KEEP.
WIN 2-1 VS Goryo's Vengeance Combo
-Game 1; combo'ed off Turn 3; GG.
-Game 2; I bring in the Tormod's Crypts; the Dispels; Counterflux; Slaughter Games. I get the Dispels; and Spell Snares; and Mana Leaks; I somehow got into a Zone even after my Round 2 Mistakes; and played perfectly; countering the right stuff; answering the right stuff; GG.
-Game 3; much of the same; although it's debatable apparently a few of the decisions I made that ended up working out; but I still think I had the right line of play and thought process.
So it's hard for me to truly tell what I have as far as a deck yet because I'm still making alot of mistakes... but; when I play things out in my head; and if I had done things right; I feel like all 3 of those decks I coulda beat.
VS the Abzan Coco Zoo Deck; we got so much removal main board that hates them out... Should be a walk in the park?
VS the Burn deck; the Flashfreezes were amazing; I admit in GM3 although I was mana screwed; I had the Butcher's Glee in my hand and kept although I prob shoulda mulled. I hate mulling..... I really wanted so bad to see what that card could do.... I didn't get to see how it would do; I was mana screwed and didn't get a creature to play; so I don't know if it would of worked. In hindsight after the match; seeing what he was gripping; I do sincerely believe it would of worked had I gottan any of my bigs to drop on the board. Perhaps I need a Lifegain option that doesn't require the Creature; maybe just some Instant Speed spell that gains life on it's own... I sincerely believe that Ench/Art Life Gain is not the option though even still. But the Flashfreezes were boss.
VS the Combo Deck; I again feel there's alot of hate here and we can stop that deck... The issue is if it combos off Turn 1 which it can.... I don't know how we stop a Turn 1 Combo Off. The only way I think is with Tormod's Crypt; but if they're using the Breech Combo; then I think we're just screwed.
I'm happy with what I saw of the deck still; I think once I get through the growing pains of being a newbie to the format; things will get much better.
Sorry to hear about the results, but I agree, once you're more in tune with modern, it'll be much, much better off for you
I also feel we have a great matchup vs CoCo (Not sure about the Elves version yet, but the combo one for sure). I was also considering a few Flashfreezes for the board, specially if more burn/elves/etc show up.
I really don't feel a second maindeck boardwipe is the right answer. I mean, with all the 1 for 1 trades/counters I have, I want to be avoiding tapping out as much as I can on my own turn.
As for IoK's, Glad it's working for you, I still will not be playing it in my version, at all. My early game is good.
Decks Playing:
(Win-Loss-Tie totals in FNM/Ptq/Gpt's)
Modern:
DredgeVine (10-3-0)
Latern Control (24-5-0)
Cruel Control (19-5-1)
Urza-Eggs (29-13-1)
8-Rack (13-5-0, Retired for now)
BG Loam Pox (with Rack) (15-5-1, Retired for now)
3 Land Belcher (4-2-0) Retired for good.
Artificer's Intuition Surfing
Prison Pox (8-3-0)
Solidarity (Instant High tide Storm)
Zombardment
Pauper:
Oops all Spells (2-0-0)
If we go down this path we should play enough that we can reliably hit an artifact off of tezzeret, Agent of Bolas.
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
If you look at like the last 20 SCG Events for Modern; Grixis has had about 3 different versions going for it.
1.) Twin
2.) Delver
3.) Blood Moon/Shackles
BUT: alot of us are on the belief that Grixis is good because of Kolaghan's Command so the Shells stay fairly close to the same; but the Win Conditions can be different.
Me personally; I don't like Blood Moon Mainboard; but yea it's definitely a Deck.
If we opt for any of the NON Cruel lists; I think I'd move in the direction of the Young Pyromancer, Olivia, Keranos, Tasigur list myself.
I think the Young Pyromancer Control lists are actually really well position and insanely flexible with Kolaghan's Command.
BUT: With that being said; this is a CRUEL thread; and I'm back in Modern because I wanted to play my favorite Magic card of all time -- CRUEL; so I'm not giving in to the peer pressure or giving up on Cruel so soon to me being back into Modern.
I personally think; if you look at the Modern events SCG has listed over this past week; there's alot of new Grixis CONTROL lists that have popped up; I think it's a matter of time before people start trying to jam Cruels to see if it can work.
I think we're just ahead of the game.... KUDOS to us!
And with that being said; I'm settling; have settled on this list now... For the most part the list is the same; but I was swapping a few cards here and there all around but now I'm settled.
The sideboard is pretty settled and stable now too...
I too have been making alot of mistakes that have cost me in Modern already too; but when I re-play things in my head I believe I had the advantage everytime had I just played things correctly.
So I need to grind Modern; learn the format; and it helps to have a stable list and not be taking a knee jerk reaction every week and dismantling and re-building...
SO here's where I'm at:
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Tasigur, The Golden Fang
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Mulldrifter
Spells: 25
2 Cruel Ultimatum
3 Terminate
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Electrolyze
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Cryptic Command
3 Mana Leak
1 Remand
2 Spell Snare
4 Serum Visions
2 Shadow of Doubt
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
Lands: 25
2 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
1 Drowned Catacomb
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Dragonskull Summit
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Island
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Slaughter Games
1 Counterflux
2 Dispel
4 Flashfreeze
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sowing Salt
3 Anger of the Gods
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Surgical Extraction
NOTES:
1.) Shadow of Doubt I've been known to run x1 mainboard; and the other slot this past event was a 3rd Cruel; which turned out to be tooooo greedy. I did the math; and instead of a 3rd Cruel I wanted another 1 or 2 CMC Cantrip/Draw or Counterspell. I decided I didn't want another Counter; so I wanted a Cantrip/Draw spell. So I was going to go with x2 Anticipate to go with the x4 Serum Visions and the rest of the other Cantrips/Draw. But then I decided that Anticipate really just Cantrips; it replaces itself; sure it digs down 3 cards deep to replace it self; but I felt I wanted something that was more powerful and that could help me in my Matchups. So I opted for Shadow of Doubt x2 in the slot instead. Shadow of Doubt still cantrips; sure it doesn't dig 3 cards deep; but what it does do in many situations is it stifles an opponent from Searching their Library... Whether it be they are Fetching a Land to Color Fix themselves; or they are Searching for UrzaTron; or the Artifact or Wincondition to combo off. Or they're Transmutting... So you're stopping them early from doing that and then Cantripping. I feel that mode of Shadow of Doubt makes it better than just digging 3 cards deep and then replacing itself. Sure there maybe times I'm going to just Cycle Shadow of Doubt and that's ok. Because then we have Snapcaster; and the moment your opponent plays a Fetch; or plays Search Spell; stifle it and Cantrip again. I think the flexibility is pretty great; and the moment you stop that search can really give us the time we need for Cruels. Add in the fact that if we stop them from Searching early; we are now pushing some of these decks to combo off a little later which plays better with the counter permission suite.
2.) Tasigur, the Golden Fang + Gurmag Angler I know the Tasigur/Gurmag package is a debated topic; while some like it and are running it; others don't. I get that; I think there's merit of both arguments. I'm staying in the Tasigur/Gurmag camp; for now. I haven't given my list a fair shot because of the mistakes I keep making; so I'm going to keep grinding it out till I feel more comfortable with the format and I can truly evaluate my card choices properly. I do know that everytime I cast Tasigur; or Gurmag; I'm dropping out a big enough creature that blocks the heck out of Goyf or other bigger creatures... even smaller creatures; it's a road block. Perhaps one of my issues when I play Zoo is I focus a bit too heavily on Goyf and need to focus more on the COMBO. At any rate; I really like what both of these guys bring; and then in the longer Grindy games; what Tasigur does to keep giving us fuel to get there.
Other than that; everything else stays pretty much the same...
Mainboard Considerations: I picked up a few of these; I want to hear thoughts if you guys don't mind?
The only thing about this deck that I feel "CAN" be inconsistent or awkward; other than me just flat out being dumb and making mistakes...
...it's the COUNTER Permission suite
I've gone back quite of few pages back to see what other things have been discussed before we got here; I admit I didn't read every page there's over 100.... but somethings caught my eye.
Spell Blast - I like Spell Blast; seems pretty flexible and gets stronger as the game goes.
Disrupting Shoal - My favorite card out of these 3 potential considerations. This can be a Turn 0 counter spell. For example; your opponent plays Goryo's Vengeance and tries to combo off Turn 1; I remove say Shadow of Doubt or Mana Leak/Remand and counter the spell and prevent a Turn 1 win. Or how about your opponent thinks the coast is clear to cast a Expedition Map; and I remove a Serum Visions or Spell Snare to counter the 1 CMC Artifact. There's many examples of things that can happen; and let's be honest too; as the game goes a bit longer; it's reasonable to expect just straight up casting this to counter alot of things.
Logic Knot - I'm not sure how much of a fan I am of this; I seen Grimble running it; because I'm already running Tasigur/Gurmag; it could delve those out... But then; Logic Knot could go along way to assist in keeping the GY cleaner so that I have greater control over what Tasigur brings back. But again; perhaps we don't even need to Delve with this; just cast it straight up as the game goes longer.
I picked up a few of these each; I'd like to give them each a try; not all of them at the same time; I feel like they each would take the same slot that I free up for them... I'd probably drop down to 2 Mana Leaks; and maybe 1 Spell Snare to make room for any 2 of the above and try them out. I'm leaning more towards Disrupting Shoal for my list.
SIDEBOARD: As I said; I feel my sideboard is now going to pretty much stay settled; I'm happy with everything I have... one area I think I may need to improve perhaps might be the Land Destruction; but the way I see it; I don't know that I want to go too all in on Land Destruction against some of those special decks like TRON or Amulet because they're hella resilient and if we focus too much on their lands and controlling their lands; we still end up getting beat down by a Thragtusk or losing to a Karn anyways. So I wanted to becareful a bit... with Shadow of Doubt mainboard; the other counters; bringing in some other things; I feel as though I can control things to some degree; while digging and landing haymakers like Slaughter Games or Sowing Salts to nail em.
All in all; even with my mistakes; I've seen some really good things from the list and I'm still hella encouraged that I'm going down a good path for this deck.
/Cheers
How do you feel your list is compared to the decks you played that you'll likely play vs again? (Tron, CoCo, etc)
Decks Playing:
(Win-Loss-Tie totals in FNM/Ptq/Gpt's)
Modern:
DredgeVine (10-3-0)
Latern Control (24-5-0)
Cruel Control (19-5-1)
Urza-Eggs (29-13-1)
8-Rack (13-5-0, Retired for now)
BG Loam Pox (with Rack) (15-5-1, Retired for now)
3 Land Belcher (4-2-0) Retired for good.
Artificer's Intuition Surfing
Prison Pox (8-3-0)
Solidarity (Instant High tide Storm)
Zombardment
Pauper:
Oops all Spells (2-0-0)
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
So why run an Artifact heavier build?
Just for the better Draw option of Thirst for Knowledge?
I don't feel like having all these Artifacts that really don't do much against our opponents just to make 1 Card better is really worth going down that road?
IDK: maybe I'm wrong.
But hey; I mean if it works for you it works; I'm not one to be negative about anyones ideas or thought process if it's working for you.
It's just def not for me; like the Tasigur/Gurmag stuff isn't for you.
Let us know how it goes... I'm interested to hear.
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
I think if you are going that far into the artifact plan you can't not play Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas. The card is to good at turning your artifacts into 5/5 beaters. I really think that is another deck entirely though.
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
I kind of disagree about the "blood Moon just kills us" mentality. I've outplayed vs several resolved Blood Moons, and I admit, it's not easy, but with my list atleast, you can bounce the Moon (Silumgar's Command), plus we can just counter a Blood Moon on turn 3 generally... Unless you're playing vs some sick person with 4 Spirit Guides in hand to pay for mana leak...
As for it being too restrictive, it's really just 1-2 finishers (I prefer 2x copies myself, but I've seen success with 1x) out of X finishers (Batterskull, Keranos, Creeping Tar Pit, etc). Thats just my thoughts though, I've yet to just lose due to Blood Moon resolving, or because Cruel Ultimatum is 'too hard to cast' ((Believe it or not, you ARE allowed to side it out))
As for a more artifact based build, I'd likely run 1x of Tezzeret Seeker so we can -X for: Darksteel Cidatel, Engineered Explosives, Crucible of Worlds (assuming it's played), etc. Though, I'd just rather play Tez-control deck with artifacts and not a Cruel style.
Decks Playing:
(Win-Loss-Tie totals in FNM/Ptq/Gpt's)
Modern:
DredgeVine (10-3-0)
Latern Control (24-5-0)
Cruel Control (19-5-1)
Urza-Eggs (29-13-1)
8-Rack (13-5-0, Retired for now)
BG Loam Pox (with Rack) (15-5-1, Retired for now)
3 Land Belcher (4-2-0) Retired for good.
Artificer's Intuition Surfing
Prison Pox (8-3-0)
Solidarity (Instant High tide Storm)
Zombardment
Pauper:
Oops all Spells (2-0-0)
I should've elaborated, I meant 1x Seeker, along with Agent of Bolas , but I digress. There's really no 'cheaper' argument, as both cost 4 cmc. Seeker I'd like in the deck much more in sideboard games, as you can fetch out several different cards to aid you, whereas the 5/5 can be path'd, or otherwise removed. Both are good for the style of deck, 'cept I'd much rather Bolas' Ult lol
If you can show a version of this 'arifact-combo-control' deck that's consistent in both speeding out Cruel's and not just flopping about like a fish I'd be interested, but it just sounds like a sketchy idea. I can see the odd game of an early Cruel Ult, but it's likely better off you just winning via 5/5's. Tezz Ult's, etc.
Again, this is my thoughts, and I just see Tez / Cruel Ult being friends without benefits (sure they can sit in the same deck, but each has a different strategy altogether) but please, feel free to continue the list, I wouldn't mind testing a 'working' version (I tried brewing it, but just dropped Red altogether and just went artifact heavy control, which I think is the biggest issue, Red's not much of a helpful color for Tezzeret)
Decks Playing:
(Win-Loss-Tie totals in FNM/Ptq/Gpt's)
Modern:
DredgeVine (10-3-0)
Latern Control (24-5-0)
Cruel Control (19-5-1)
Urza-Eggs (29-13-1)
8-Rack (13-5-0, Retired for now)
BG Loam Pox (with Rack) (15-5-1, Retired for now)
3 Land Belcher (4-2-0) Retired for good.
Artificer's Intuition Surfing
Prison Pox (8-3-0)
Solidarity (Instant High tide Storm)
Zombardment
Pauper:
Oops all Spells (2-0-0)
There is that Travis Woo deck that can cast Cruel n turn 4 and then the rest of the game until it's opponent just dies using Spellweaver Helix. Something like imprint Raven's Crime and Cruel Ultimatum Cast Raven's crime and a Cruel for B plus discarding a land.
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
You do realize this is a Modern Category; and a Cruel Control thread right?
And to your points; Cruel Ultimatum is still a powerful tool I agree; and once it resolves it still carries the weight of being a death blow in any matchups.
Generally you resolve the first one; your chances of winning are much much higher and it leads right into the 2nd casting of the spell.
Also; let's just call it what it is for some of us too... it's the challenge of casting it and taking over the game that is the thrill.
It's such a powerful card; it's a TRUE Control win condition... control the game for 6 Turns; jam a spell that completely and utterly shifts the game so drastically that we now are on path to victory.
IDK; I mean I'm on this Thread cuz Cruel is my favorite card; and I'm developing a list with Cruels.... isn't that the point?
As far as Blood Moon; I've analyzed and researched and dug dug dug... Blood Moon doesn't really bother us till we get to Turn 7 and want to cast Cruel.
Atleast for my list; I have other things going for me besides Cruel.
Tasigur, the Golden Fang; Gurmag Angler; Keranos, God of Storms; BURN... This is a big reason why I have opted to keep these packages; it provides the deck much needed midrange game just in case the Cruel Path doesn't pan out. Not to mention it also provides alot of utility to go LONG if we get pushed to that direction.
I don't always need to win by resolving Cruel and I think that's the best way to play the deck.
And fact is; I can cast all of those above threat while still playing around Blood Moon. All those Creatures I just named; Only need just 1 Swamp and 1 Island to resolve all of those.
That's it...
Come time for Turn 7; do a EOT Turn 6 Cryptic Command; Bouncing Blood Moon to their hand; into Turn 7 CRUEL and force them to discard it.
Blood Moon honestly doesn't feel like it'll be that bad ever if we're playing our game right; and really that's what Modern is all about... skilled lines of play and impeccable decision making...
I've learned alot by studying how we play around it... if I see Red on my opponents side; I just plan immediately from the start that they're going to Blood Moon me.
So I line up Islands and Swamps any chance I can fetch them... Serum Visions and the SCRY Action certainly also helps to get Multiple Islands/Swamps Basics.
Blood Moon although annoying is just that; an annoyance and I just know to shift my focus for awhile.... it's just that simple.
I'm to the point now that I"m feeling very comfortable against any matchups that intend to try and BLOOD MOON hate us out... because generally if that's their plan; they think once they resolve that; they can rest on that plan and put too much confidence in the card... meanwhile we still keep plugging away; killing a creature here or there; not really being forced to do much of anything... because some of the decks that play Blood Moon also end up hurting themselves too... It's a chance they take... we keep plugging away; still able to drop my threats like Tasigur; Gurmag; Keranos... needing only 1 Island to sit behind that and protect.... and sure; I hit my Engineered Explosives and destroy it; or Bounce Blood Moon and CRUEL.
I welcome the tech... just like Grafdigger's Cage; buddy of mine thinks that really hurts us... lol It doesn't.
Many of my opponents have locked themselves out the game trying to stop me with blood moon. I just cackle and resolve Batterskull with my basic islands and swamps.
If you run 8 fetches then blood moon should never be a concern, just play around it.
Cruel Ultimatum is the only reason this thread exists, if you don't want to play it then go here: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/603567-grixis-control-no-ultimatum
Oh and I was right about Kolaghan's Command being good, it is sold out everywhere and skyrocketing in price.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
You have enough experience to handle a resolved blood moon without being rattled. The only real difference between online and paper is remembering triggers and knowing the game state, so I don't doubt your abilities.
Cruel Control is never going to be a tier 1 tournament slaying deck, that is a fact. This is just my fun deck for modern.
Don't get rattled by comments made on the internet, it is quite difficult to detect sarcasm and competitive banter on here.
Whether its in this thread or the other grixis thread lets all be courteous and maybe use /s or a
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
To be fair the online meta is always so filled with burn decks i don't know how this deck is ever winning online outside of a good curve of lands and about 6 or more ways to counterspell something.
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
I realize it's the main card people use to combat burn...but I hate that card. It just does literal nothing in many of our other matches and if I can't win the burn match another way I personally will switch to Esper until burn dies down. I do think that Flashfreeze goes a long ways to helping us in that match up along with batterskull if we can stillafford to play thatt card with kolaghan's command seeing an ever increasing amount of play.
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Blood Crypt
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Island
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
2 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
Creatures - 8
2 Fulminator Mage
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, The Golden Fang
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Liliana of the Veil
Spells - 24
2 Cruel Ultimatum
3 Cryptic Command
2 Damnation
2 Electrolyze
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Mana Leak
2 Spell Snare
2 Terminate
1 Thoughtseize
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Counterflux
1 Dispel
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Flashfreeze
2 Fulminator Mage
1 Keranos, God of the Storms
2 Rakdos Charm
2 Spellskite
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas