He has a very valid point in the card choices.
Card Draw he has:
4 Cryptic (Conditional)
2 Esper Charm (Raw Card advantage)
4 Ponder (This is card advantage, sure it isn't a direct +1, but guaranteeing that you draw action/lands at the right time is essential arguably more important than getting a direct +1.)
4 Repeal (This solves so many problems, makes sense against aggro because in reality a cruel ultimatum will end many games against aggro)
Spell Pierce(IDK how I feel about this one.)
This guys deck was awful. He played ponder over preordain in a strait up control deck for craps sake. I have never seen a winning list in a real event have less than 6 actually card draw spells.
Voidslime seems like a legit teachings target.
On to more important things. You guys see the 4 color teachings deck? Is that guy crazy or what?
I really like his list and all of his 1of's. All kinds of neat stuff in his package.
EDIT: You guys play teachings in your cruel control? What for?
Believe it or not I'm only running to mystical teachings in my teachings deck. I might just cut all of them and just make it an esper control because I'm almost never happy to see it. The silver bullets are all terrible atm, and 4 mana to "draw a card" is not really that great.
Also let me reiterate that MTGO dailys are terrible comparison to what the meta will actually look like. I believe it was chapin that said not to pay attention to decks even those built by pros because it is like a high school team playing the NBA relative to PTQs.
aosdifj
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
what cards u recommend vs jund with demigod and fauna shaman
im thinking 2xidentity crisis and 1 faerie macabre plus 2 celestial purge i have 1 sadistic sacrament too
The problem with identity crisis is that it is only good against ooze and other control decks(which are basically nonexistant).
Relic of Progenitus is really powerful and solves all the problems we could ever have against graveyard based decks.
The problem with identity crisis is that it is only good against ooze and other control decks(which are basically nonexistant).
Relic of Progenitus is really powerful and solves all the problems we could ever have against graveyard based decks.
Also do you not run path to exile? I play 4 now.
yeah 4 path solves the whole demigod problem very well. I have always run 4 and agree that it is probably optimal.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
I don't know if you guys have still been playing this style of deck, but my updated list is pretty decent it avoids a lot of weaknesses we have.
What we need is a list of decks for the format so that we can then list general answers to them and thus overlapping answers can be used to make our decks as efficient as possible. If anyone is interested in helping me make this list I think it could progress this style of deck very quickly.
Anyway this is what I have been using, its really hard to play so easy to make a mistake with, but anyway.
Thought I'd give this thread a bump caz theres a lot of combo running around and maybe this deck has a shot to at least give it a run for it's money!
Classic disruption spells always start with Inquisition of Kozilek and Thoughtsieze and in this case I'd like to start with a playset of I.o.K just caz it hits a lot in this aggro/combo meta and does not shock you. That's not to say Thoughtseize won't be in my 75 but for now I'm placing a few in my side.
NOW, time for da counters fellas! I want start off the festivities with 3 Cryptic Command. Not really a need to explain so let's move on to playsets! I def want a playset of Remand caz it's great against combo and at least buys me a turn against aggro while drawing me a card!
I'd like to run a playset of Esper Charm to provide gas and be able to pluck the last couple cards from my opponents hand!
As far as dudes go I know I want to run Vendilion Clique but after that Id like to run Baneslayer for it's ability to beat and defend!
Maybe a singleton Grave Titan to finish games for me.
Round things out with removal! Path to Exile has always had a spot on my white decks and I don't see a reason to stop; 4 of def! Wrath of God and Damnation shall be in da mix.
NOW, time for da counters fellas! I want start off the festivities with 3 Cryptic Command. Not really a need to explain
Manabase will need work but I made room for 27 lands as I also want to pimp a couple Ghost Quarter.
I think you do need to explain why you only have 3 cryptics. That seems completely wrong to me. You should be playing 4 no doubt about it.
As for the mana base you will be really kicking your self if you play ghost quarter. First off turn 3 you may need to play esper charm aggressively to draw/dig. And turn 7 you may need to cast cruel. This deck is way too color intensive to be getting cute with colorless lands. You can also use cryptics to bounce lands if need be. IT has worked for me in the past.
Classic disruption spells always start with Inquisition of Kozilek and Thoughtsieze and in this case I'd like to start with a playset of I.o.K just caz it hits a lot in this aggro/combo meta and does not shock you. That's not to say Thoughtseize won't be in my 75 but for now I'm placing a few in my side.
Inquisition is fine in this format, but Thoughtseize might be too risky with all of the random aggro running around (2 life makes more of a difference than you think it does). I've been running the playset of Inquisition with relative success, it's definitely a great card and has a place against most decks.
NOW, time for da counters fellas! I want start off the festivities with 3 Cryptic Command. Not really a need to explain so let's move on to playsets! I def want a playset of Remand caz it's great against combo and at least buys me a turn against aggro while drawing me a card!
3 Cryptic is wrong. 4 Cryptic is correct. It's what makes this deck. Also, I would run Rune Snag instead of Remand if you want more counters, but I'm only running the playset of Cryptic.
I'd like to run a playset of Esper Charm to provide gas and be able to pluck the last couple cards from my opponents hand!
I'm running a pair of Blue Sun's Zenith as my main draw spell, and this allows me to be aggressive with my Esper Charms. Worth a consideration, probably.
As far as dudes go I know I want to run Vendilion Clique but after that Id like to run Baneslayer for it's ability to beat and defend!
Maybe a singleton Grave Titan to finish games for me.
Vendilion Clique is definitely a powerhouse, but I keep it sided. Its true power lies in breaking open the control mirror, and it has uses against combo. Aggro? It's a 3/1 blocker that might just get Bolted anyways. Not entirely appealing.
I don't see the merit of Baneslayer right now. My combination of Bolts, Paths, Firespouts, and Cryptics has always left me at a fairly high life total against aggro (somewhere in the low teens), so Baneslayer has never been necessary to clinch games from aggro. Plus, WW mainboard can be difficult. I prefer to just go with a pair of Grave Titan.
Round things out with removal! Path to Exile has always had a spot on my white decks and I don't see a reason to stop; 4 of def! Wrath of God and Damnation shall be in da mix.
4of Path has been questionable for me. I like the 4/2 split between Bolt and Path, though I could see an argument for running a 3/3 split. I think 4 Path mainboard is just wrong, though. Also, Firespout is probably just better right now than Wrath or Damnation.
Manabase will need work but I made room for 27 lands as I also want to pimp a couple Ghost Quarter.
Testing has shown that 26 lands is the correct number, and Ghost Quarter definitely doesn't fit in this deck. If you need land destruction, Fulminator Mage is a great sideboard option.
Why Mana Leak over Rune Snag? If you're playing a playset, Rune Snag is almost certainly better, since drawing them in multiples late game isn't completely dead against some decks.
Why Damnation over a quicker board wipe like Firespout? This deck plays a lot of tap lands, hitting a turn 3 board wipe on turn 4 isn't unlikely, and will often save you many lost games as opposed to dying the turn before you 5th turn Wrath.
Why only 2 Cruel? Have you tested 3? Is 2 significantly better? I'm not seeing the draw power to consistently see one of 2.
Why Sorin's Vengeance?
Why 2/2 Path/Terminate? Why not 3/1 or 4/0? Path is arguably just better if you can play it.
Why Oblivion Ring? What does it do for you that Cryptic generally won't?
I don't think Ajani has a place in this deck. You don't have sufficient resources to protect him until late game, where he becomes almost irrelevant.
I don't think Chandra fits in here, either. Copying a Cruel (or a Vengeance) is cool, but will likely never happen, since that would require 11 mana and them to not have disruption or dudes to beat her down before you hit 11 (should you play her before then).
Why no Bolts as more fast removal?
Why Go for the Throat in the side? Terminate/Path are just better.
Why Wrath of God/Slagstorm? Double cost of any color besides Blue (barring Cruel) is incredibly tough in this deck (though Black is manageable), and there's a decent chance you don't hit RR on turn 3 or WW on turn 4. This is why we came to the consensus that Firespout is the correct board wipe for the deck (and the meta), while Damnation is the correct hard board wipe in the sideboard as a singleton.
Timely Reinforcements seems rather lackluster in this format. It's a great card, don't get me wrong. I'm just not sure it fits.
Given how the format is shaping up to be, would Trickbind be powerful enough hate to warrant a place in this deck?
I'm debating taking out the Inquisitions for them. I will be testing tonight and tomorrow to see how they hold up. They are powerful in almost every matchup: fetchland triggers, Eldrazi cast effects, Persist, Hive Mind triggers, etc.
Why Mana Leak over Rune Snag? If you're playing a playset, Rune Snag is almost certainly better, since drawing them in multiples late game isn't completely dead against some decks.
Why Damnation over a quicker board wipe like Firespout? This deck plays a lot of tap lands, hitting a turn 3 board wipe on turn 4 isn't unlikely, and will often save you many lost games as opposed to dying the turn before you 5th turn Wrath.
Why only 2 Cruel? Have you tested 3? Is 2 significantly better? I'm not seeing the draw power to consistently see one of 2.
Why Sorin's Vengeance?
Why 2/2 Path/Terminate? Why not 3/1 or 4/0? Path is arguably just better if you can play it.
Why Oblivion Ring? What does it do for you that Cryptic generally won't?
I don't think Ajani has a place in this deck. You don't have sufficient resources to protect him until late game, where he becomes almost irrelevant.
I don't think Chandra fits in here, either. Copying a Cruel (or a Vengeance) is cool, but will likely never happen, since that would require 11 mana and them to not have disruption or dudes to beat her down before you hit 11 (should you play her before then).
Why no Bolts as more fast removal?
Why Go for the Throat in the side? Terminate/Path are just better.
Why Wrath of God/Slagstorm? Double cost of any color besides Blue (barring Cruel) is incredibly tough in this deck (though Black is manageable), and there's a decent chance you don't hit RR on turn 3 or WW on turn 4. This is why we came to the consensus that Firespout is the correct board wipe for the deck (and the meta), while Damnation is the correct hard board wipe in the sideboard as a singleton.
Timely Reinforcements seems rather lackluster in this format. It's a great card, don't get me wrong. I'm just not sure it fits.
I'm debating taking out the Inquisitions for them. I will be testing tonight and tomorrow to see how they hold up. They are powerful in almost every matchup: fetchland triggers, Eldrazi cast effects, Persist, Hive Mind triggers, etc.
Rune Snag Vs Mana Leak (It for the most part doesn't matter. Although I will say I'm on the rune snag side now.)
If you actually play enough cheap removal you can afford to play damnation over firespout on the fact that it is simply better and you can have the extra turn if you killed 1 of their creatures dead.
3 Cruel Ultimatum is preference. I hate 3 because I always draw them and 2 is pretty much better because you are more likely to draw action instead of another cruel ultimatum when you are stuck on 4 lands.(It happens)
Some people run an assortment of removal over just 4 path to exile so that they can cast multiple in a turn. Nothing wrong with that.
Timely Reinforcements is alright if your opponent doesn't play punishing fire, buys you atleast 1-2 turns.
I feel like if you just play teachings that you don't have to play Blue Sun because it is really overcosted and you definitely won't resolve it against another control deck unlike teachings which they let happen simply because I can just flash it back to get the +1 anyway.
If you actually play enough cheap removal you can afford to play damnation over firespout on the fact that it is simply better and you can have the extra turn if you killed 1 of their creatures dead.
This likely ends up being a preference thing. I mostly like Firespout because, in this format, it is often just a board wipe. I run 6 1cmc removal spells and still seem to always enjoy seeing it (when it's not dead, of course).
3 Cruel Ultimatum is preference. I hate 3 because I always draw them and 2 is pretty much better because you are more likely to draw action instead of another cruel ultimatum when you are stuck on 4 lands.(It happens)
I'm actually in the opposite boat. I never seem to draw one if I only have 2.
I feel like if you just play teachings that you don't have to play Blue Sun because it is really overcosted and you definitely won't resolve it against another control deck unlike teachings which they let happen simply because I can just flash it back to get the +1 anyway.
My problem with Teachings is that it really requires a package, and I can't seem to fit a package into my list. What would I fetch? Capsize isn't legal, Cryptic fetch is good but not gamebreaking, Charm is questionable, and removal is often bad. Teferi is fine, but is really only good in the control mirror. I want my 4cmc+ spell to just win me the game, and Teachings doesn't feel like it does that.
On a side note, what do people think about a Trinket Mage package? Engineered Explosives, Pithing Needle, and Relic of Progenitus/Tormod's Crypt all seem really good. There are also sideboard possibilities in Chalice of the Void, Brittle Effigy, etc.
Why Mana Leak over Rune Snag? If you're playing a playset, Rune Snag is almost certainly better, since drawing them in multiples late game isn't completely dead against some decks.
Why Damnation over a quicker board wipe like Firespout? This deck plays a lot of tap lands, hitting a turn 3 board wipe on turn 4 isn't unlikely, and will often save you many lost games as opposed to dying the turn before you 5th turn Wrath.
Why only 2 Cruel? Have you tested 3? Is 2 significantly better? I'm not seeing the draw power to consistently see one of 2.
Why Sorin's Vengeance?
Why 2/2 Path/Terminate? Why not 3/1 or 4/0? Path is arguably just better if you can play it.
Why Oblivion Ring? What does it do for you that Cryptic generally won't?
I don't think Ajani has a place in this deck. You don't have sufficient resources to protect him until late game, where he becomes almost irrelevant.
I don't think Chandra fits in here, either. Copying a Cruel (or a Vengeance) is cool, but will likely never happen, since that would require 11 mana and them to not have disruption or dudes to beat her down before you hit 11 (should you play her before then).
Why no Bolts as more fast removal?
Why Go for the Throat in the side? Terminate/Path are just better.
Why Wrath of God/Slagstorm? Double cost of any color besides Blue (barring Cruel) is incredibly tough in this deck (though Black is manageable), and there's a decent chance you don't hit RR on turn 3 or WW on turn 4. This is why we came to the consensus that Firespout is the correct board wipe for the deck (and the meta), while Damnation is the correct hard board wipe in the sideboard as a singleton.
Timely Reinforcements seems rather lackluster in this format. It's a great card, don't get me wrong. I'm just not sure it fits.
1st. Maybe your right on rune snag vs mana leak. 2nd Removal with different names can really play you around cards like meddling mage and guys with protection. 3rd planeswalkers are really great in this deck cause it serves as a fog if not its really a big threat if they can't remove it. i don't think firespout is better than slagstorm because u need G for it and it doesn't hit mirran crusaders. on the go for the throat issue it doesn't require 2nd color if ur opponent resolves magus of the moon and you dont have alot of basic lands. oring hits walkers / swords / emrakul and can serve as a removal. thats my 50 cents
I disagree with the Planeswalkers argument. 4 mana fog is terribad, and the threat they provide is actually rather minimal unless it's incredibly late game and you have them on lockdown. If you want a fog walker that badly, Gideon is your go-to guy, but I don't think he's terribly relevant in this format.
I can see your point on Mirran Crusader, but I don't think one creature is enough to convince me that Firespout is bad, especially when the premier aggro decks (Zoo, Affinity, Jund) elect to not run him or can't. I also have Bolt to deal with him if necessary. Bolt also handles Magus of the Moon.
Your argument about needing G is fine, but doesn't always hold up. Most of the beaters we need to kill in mass quantities are on the ground, not in the air.
Nice to see some traffic! Sorry for the delay in response but I have a lot to cover.
First off, I'll be going up to 4 Cryptic Command I was playing 3 because I thought that they wouldn't be good in multiples but Cryptic is much more than a counterspell. Cryptic doesn't even have to counter a spell so yeah, my bad...4 of lol.
I really like Remand because it buys me time. Most of the time, vs Post decks, cards like Mana Leak and Spell Snare are dead very fast and I like the fact that it makes my Esper Charm, Inquisition of Kozilek/Thoughtseize, and Vendilion Clique always have targets. Besides that, Remand gets me a card so in essense, I feel, like its a 56 card deck and I get to time-walk opponents.
As far as creatures go, I will cut Baneslayer to add more Grave Titan's. I was under the impression that Baneslayer was good but it's not great any more. There should be more finishers in the deck anyway.
Someone suggested cutting down Path and I think I can go down to 3 but I want to add some Lightning Bolt's to shore up the early game. I'm thinking of cutting Preordain to make room but I feel I may end up making room for that too so we'll see. I think a good removal package might be
I like your list, Koopa, but there are a few nuances. Namely, how do you like the absence of Bolt and Firespout in favor of Terminate, Repeal, and Damnation? Also, how do you like 2 Cruel instead of 3?
I don't know if you guys have still been playing this style of deck, but my updated list is pretty decent it avoids a lot of weaknesses we have.
What we need is a list of decks for the format so that we can then list general answers to them and thus overlapping answers can be used to make our decks as efficient as possible. If anyone is interested in helping me make this list I think it could progress this style of deck very quickly.
Anyway this is what I have been using, its really hard to play so easy to make a mistake with, but anyway.
The zendikar traps have surprisingly been really good if you haven't noticed.
So lets see... You are running red for 4 bolts and 1 cruel?
I like me some bolts and cruel more then your average player, but messing up your mana base just for 5 cards makes no sense. Just run U/b/w Teachings, you can still run dismember or go for the throat.
And where are the cryptics?
I think Trickbind is betters then Angel's grace if you want a silver bullet for your Teachings.
Also I;m Running Preordain, and i've switched them for Telling time. I think its a better card and it digs 3 deep... also instant = good?
Also I;m Running Preordain, and i've switched them for Telling time. I think its a better card and it digs 3 deep... also instant = good?
I'm not sure how I feel about Telling Time. Instant speed dig is cool, but having to bottom one of the cards can hurt sometimes, and the fact that it costs 2 as opposed to 1 is actually a big deal.
I like your list, Koopa, but there are a few nuances. Namely, how do you like the absence of Bolt and Firespout in favor of Terminate, Repeal, and Damnation? Also, how do you like 2 Cruel instead of 3?
I have always played two Cruel. Opening up with one in your hand is basically a mulligan. I have Cryptic, Repeal, Esper Charm, and Preoradain... hell even Vendillion Clique to dig for it.
As for the Terminate/Bolt/Repeal/Damantion/Firespout thing... here is my logic. Firespout is great against Zoo, Elves, ect ect... however it is dead vs nearly everything else. Damnation is always going to do something, so say against 12 post I can still kill a Primeval or something of that nature. Also, Firespout doesn't always kill Goyf or KotR... two creatures which see a lot of play. The same is said for Bolt... against the fast aggro decks? Fantastic. 12Post/Tarmogoyf? Kill me now.
aosdifj
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
The problem with identity crisis is that it is only good against ooze and other control decks(which are basically nonexistant).
Relic of Progenitus is really powerful and solves all the problems we could ever have against graveyard based decks.
Also do you not run path to exile? I play 4 now.
yeah 4 path solves the whole demigod problem very well. I have always run 4 and agree that it is probably optimal.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
What we need is a list of decks for the format so that we can then list general answers to them and thus overlapping answers can be used to make our decks as efficient as possible. If anyone is interested in helping me make this list I think it could progress this style of deck very quickly.
Anyway this is what I have been using, its really hard to play so easy to make a mistake with, but anyway.
1 Teferi
1 Plumeveil
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Baneslayer Angel
Spells
4 Preordain
4 Path to exile
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mana Leak
4 Esper Charm
2 Mystical Teachings
1 Angel's Grace (lol hivemind)
1 Damnation
1 Consume the Meek
1 Cruel Ultimatum
4 Reflecting Pool
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Marsh Flats
3 Islands
1 Plains
2 Steam Vents
2 Watery Grave
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundary
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Dreadship Reef
1 City of Brass
2 Mystic Gate
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Sowing Salt
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Echoing Truth
1 Disenchant
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Ricochet Trap
1 Ravenous Trap
The zendikar traps have surprisingly been really good if you haven't noticed.
Classic disruption spells always start with Inquisition of Kozilek and Thoughtsieze and in this case I'd like to start with a playset of I.o.K just caz it hits a lot in this aggro/combo meta and does not shock you. That's not to say Thoughtseize won't be in my 75 but for now I'm placing a few in my side.
NOW, time for da counters fellas! I want start off the festivities with 3 Cryptic Command. Not really a need to explain so let's move on to playsets! I def want a playset of Remand caz it's great against combo and at least buys me a turn against aggro while drawing me a card!
I'd like to run a playset of Esper Charm to provide gas and be able to pluck the last couple cards from my opponents hand!
As far as dudes go I know I want to run Vendilion Clique but after that Id like to run Baneslayer for it's ability to beat and defend!
Maybe a singleton Grave Titan to finish games for me.
Round things out with removal! Path to Exile has always had a spot on my white decks and I don't see a reason to stop; 4 of def! Wrath of God and Damnation shall be in da mix.
2 Baneslayer
1 Grave Titan
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Remand
3 Cryptic Command
4 Preordain
4 Path to Exile
2 Damnation
2 Cruel Ultimatum
Manabase will need work but I made room for 27 lands as I also want to pimp a couple Ghost Quarter.
Thanks to Dantcg for the Sig!
I think you do need to explain why you only have 3 cryptics. That seems completely wrong to me. You should be playing 4 no doubt about it.
As for the mana base you will be really kicking your self if you play ghost quarter. First off turn 3 you may need to play esper charm aggressively to draw/dig. And turn 7 you may need to cast cruel. This deck is way too color intensive to be getting cute with colorless lands. You can also use cryptics to bounce lands if need be. IT has worked for me in the past.
Inquisition is fine in this format, but Thoughtseize might be too risky with all of the random aggro running around (2 life makes more of a difference than you think it does). I've been running the playset of Inquisition with relative success, it's definitely a great card and has a place against most decks.
3 Cryptic is wrong. 4 Cryptic is correct. It's what makes this deck. Also, I would run Rune Snag instead of Remand if you want more counters, but I'm only running the playset of Cryptic.
I'm running a pair of Blue Sun's Zenith as my main draw spell, and this allows me to be aggressive with my Esper Charms. Worth a consideration, probably.
Vendilion Clique is definitely a powerhouse, but I keep it sided. Its true power lies in breaking open the control mirror, and it has uses against combo. Aggro? It's a 3/1 blocker that might just get Bolted anyways. Not entirely appealing.
I don't see the merit of Baneslayer right now. My combination of Bolts, Paths, Firespouts, and Cryptics has always left me at a fairly high life total against aggro (somewhere in the low teens), so Baneslayer has never been necessary to clinch games from aggro. Plus, WW mainboard can be difficult. I prefer to just go with a pair of Grave Titan.
4of Path has been questionable for me. I like the 4/2 split between Bolt and Path, though I could see an argument for running a 3/3 split. I think 4 Path mainboard is just wrong, though. Also, Firespout is probably just better right now than Wrath or Damnation.
Testing has shown that 26 lands is the correct number, and Ghost Quarter definitely doesn't fit in this deck. If you need land destruction, Fulminator Mage is a great sideboard option.
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
3 Vivid Creek
1 Vivid Crag
1 Vivid Marsh
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Mystic Gate
2 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
4 Reflecting Pool
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Swamp
2 Island
1 Mountain
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Marsh Flats
1 Arid Mesa
4 Preordain
4 Mana Leak
4 Cryptic Command
4 Esper Charm
2 Damnation
2 Cruel Ultimatum
1 Sorin's Vengeance
2 Path to Exile
2 Terminate
Enchantments 2
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Ajani Vengeant
2 Chandra, the Firebrand
Creatures 3
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Grave Titan
2 Slagstorm
2 Timely Reinforcements
3 Duress
1 Wrath of God
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Revoke Existence
1 Path to Exile
1 Go for the Throat
2 Memoricide
A couple things:
I'm debating taking out the Inquisitions for them. I will be testing tonight and tomorrow to see how they hold up. They are powerful in almost every matchup: fetchland triggers, Eldrazi cast effects, Persist, Hive Mind triggers, etc.
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
Rune Snag Vs Mana Leak (It for the most part doesn't matter. Although I will say I'm on the rune snag side now.)
If you actually play enough cheap removal you can afford to play damnation over firespout on the fact that it is simply better and you can have the extra turn if you killed 1 of their creatures dead.
3 Cruel Ultimatum is preference. I hate 3 because I always draw them and 2 is pretty much better because you are more likely to draw action instead of another cruel ultimatum when you are stuck on 4 lands.(It happens)
Some people run an assortment of removal over just 4 path to exile so that they can cast multiple in a turn. Nothing wrong with that.
Timely Reinforcements is alright if your opponent doesn't play punishing fire, buys you atleast 1-2 turns.
I feel like if you just play teachings that you don't have to play Blue Sun because it is really overcosted and you definitely won't resolve it against another control deck unlike teachings which they let happen simply because I can just flash it back to get the +1 anyway.
This likely ends up being a preference thing. I mostly like Firespout because, in this format, it is often just a board wipe. I run 6 1cmc removal spells and still seem to always enjoy seeing it (when it's not dead, of course).
I'm actually in the opposite boat. I never seem to draw one if I only have 2.
My problem with Teachings is that it really requires a package, and I can't seem to fit a package into my list. What would I fetch? Capsize isn't legal, Cryptic fetch is good but not gamebreaking, Charm is questionable, and removal is often bad. Teferi is fine, but is really only good in the control mirror. I want my 4cmc+ spell to just win me the game, and Teachings doesn't feel like it does that.
On a side note, what do people think about a Trinket Mage package? Engineered Explosives, Pithing Needle, and Relic of Progenitus/Tormod's Crypt all seem really good. There are also sideboard possibilities in Chalice of the Void, Brittle Effigy, etc.
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
1st. Maybe your right on rune snag vs mana leak. 2nd Removal with different names can really play you around cards like meddling mage and guys with protection. 3rd planeswalkers are really great in this deck cause it serves as a fog if not its really a big threat if they can't remove it. i don't think firespout is better than slagstorm because u need G for it and it doesn't hit mirran crusaders. on the go for the throat issue it doesn't require 2nd color if ur opponent resolves magus of the moon and you dont have alot of basic lands. oring hits walkers / swords / emrakul and can serve as a removal. thats my 50 cents
I can see your point on Mirran Crusader, but I don't think one creature is enough to convince me that Firespout is bad, especially when the premier aggro decks (Zoo, Affinity, Jund) elect to not run him or can't. I also have Bolt to deal with him if necessary. Bolt also handles Magus of the Moon.
Your argument about needing G is fine, but doesn't always hold up. Most of the beaters we need to kill in mass quantities are on the ground, not in the air.
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
First off, I'll be going up to 4 Cryptic Command I was playing 3 because I thought that they wouldn't be good in multiples but Cryptic is much more than a counterspell. Cryptic doesn't even have to counter a spell so yeah, my bad...4 of lol.
I really like Remand because it buys me time. Most of the time, vs Post decks, cards like Mana Leak and Spell Snare are dead very fast and I like the fact that it makes my Esper Charm, Inquisition of Kozilek/Thoughtseize, and Vendilion Clique always have targets. Besides that, Remand gets me a card so in essense, I feel, like its a 56 card deck and I get to time-walk opponents.
As far as creatures go, I will cut Baneslayer to add more Grave Titan's. I was under the impression that Baneslayer was good but it's not great any more. There should be more finishers in the deck anyway.
Someone suggested cutting down Path and I think I can go down to 3 but I want to add some Lightning Bolt's to shore up the early game. I'm thinking of cutting Preordain to make room but I feel I may end up making room for that too so we'll see. I think a good removal package might be
3 Path to Exile
1 Damnation
Thanks for the Fulminator Mage suggestion! I'm sure he'll be at least a 3-4 of in my side
So with all those changes, here is a list I'll be playing tonight.
2 Grave Titan
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Esper Charm
4 Cryptic Command
4 Remand
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
3 Cruel Ultimatum
2 Damnation
1 Firesprout
Thanks to Dantcg for the Sig!
3x Vendillion Clique
1x Grave Titan
1x Wurmcoil Engine
Spells(29)
4x Cryptic Command
4x Esper Charm
4x Rune Snag
4x Preordain
3x Inquistion of Kozilek
2x Cruel Ultimatum
2x Damnation
2x Path to Exile
2x Repeal
2x Terminate
4x Reflecting Pool
3x Vivid Creek
2x Island
2x Marsh Flats
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Vivid Marsh
2x Watery Grave
1x Blood Crypt
1x Cascade Bluffs
1x Grave Carines
1x Godless Shrine
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Mystic Gate
1x Steam Vents
1x Sunken Ruin
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
This is where I am starting off... feel free to comment
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
Wizards Certified Rules Advisor
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
So lets see... You are running red for 4 bolts and 1 cruel?
I like me some bolts and cruel more then your average player, but messing up your mana base just for 5 cards makes no sense. Just run U/b/w Teachings, you can still run dismember or go for the throat.
And where are the cryptics?
I think Trickbind is betters then Angel's grace if you want a silver bullet for your Teachings.
Also I;m Running Preordain, and i've switched them for Telling time. I think its a better card and it digs 3 deep... also instant = good?
I'm not sure how I feel about Telling Time. Instant speed dig is cool, but having to bottom one of the cards can hurt sometimes, and the fact that it costs 2 as opposed to 1 is actually a big deal.
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
I have always played two Cruel. Opening up with one in your hand is basically a mulligan. I have Cryptic, Repeal, Esper Charm, and Preoradain... hell even Vendillion Clique to dig for it.
As for the Terminate/Bolt/Repeal/Damantion/Firespout thing... here is my logic. Firespout is great against Zoo, Elves, ect ect... however it is dead vs nearly everything else. Damnation is always going to do something, so say against 12 post I can still kill a Primeval or something of that nature. Also, Firespout doesn't always kill Goyf or KotR... two creatures which see a lot of play. The same is said for Bolt... against the fast aggro decks? Fantastic. 12Post/Tarmogoyf? Kill me now.
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
Wizards Certified Rules Advisor