I think I like the approach, previously mentioned above, of looking at other similar proven manabases that work. Unfortunately we don't have a vast pool of tournament results in the grixis control variety to look at, this is why I tend to check out the UWR control manabases in modern that have historically put up results, and work from their manabases. these lists might help you out in terms of manabases, List 1 List 2
youll notice both of these lists have very similar manabases and make good use of the checklands(shahar's list runs 3, mclaren's list runs 2 presumably because it runs 4 tec edges while the other runs only 3), from my own experience with these lands I can definitely see why. These checklands many times can come very close to being dual lands (that can't be fetched) This helps save a ton of life since you avoid having to shock to hold up mana leak on turn 2, along with many other things, with so many fetchlands in the deck being able to play them untapped is pretty easy.
Also worth noting is that they both only run 2 islands, and 1 of each other basic. I get why you would want to run 3 islands (for cryptic under a blood moon i would assume) but I've heard of players like lsv simply siding out cryptic commands vs. blood moon decks and it doesn't seem like too crazy of a strategy to me since its only 3 cards in the deck, I mean cryptic is a crazy good card don't get me wrong but I think its not an unreasonable strategy that he uses, also it seems unlikely youre going to fetch all your basics before a blood moon hit, thats gotta be pretty rare. Also if you would want to build a manabase with choke in mind, you may already consider less islands and more lands that tap for blue without the island land type on them.
and finally of course you might notice that they both have 7 fetches and 5 shocks (4 blue/x shocks, and 1 nonblue/nonblue shock, presumably because triple blue for cryptic is a concern). (for your purposes i'd say that 7 fetches wouldn't leave u with dead fetches too often, and so i don't think it would be too big of a concern for you).
Of course there are variables that might make you want to change a few of the numbers of types of lands etc, but if you're still figuring out your manabase, i'd say thats at least a good place to start since its been fairly consistent in putting up significant results. Also for anyone else out there trying to figure out their manabases.
I have played both esper and Grixis and there is no way you could argue for esper being slower than grixis...I love casting cruel ultimatum but it is nowhere near the speed elspeth+ gideon can give you...or lingering souls beatdown after a Supreme verdict is even a potentially faster clock than we usually get with these lists.
I said esper control not esper midrange. try a singleton white sun's zenith, a pair of snapcaster mages, and colonnades +1 tarpit as your only win cons. It's slower than grixis. I've taken eleven turns to kill a storm opponent that put themselves to 1 life with a pithing needle on colonnade.
I think I like the approach, previously mentioned above, of looking at other similar proven manabases that work. Unfortunately we don't have a vast pool of tournament results in the grixis control variety to look at, this is why I tend to check out the UWR control manabases in modern that have historically put up results, and work from their manabases. these lists might help you out in terms of manabases, List 1 List 2
youll notice both of these lists have very similar manabases and make good use of the checklands(shahar's list runs 3, mclaren's list runs 2 presumably because it runs 4 tec edges while the other runs only 3), from my own experience with these lands I can definitely see why. These checklands many times can come very close to being dual lands (that can't be fetched) This helps save a ton of life since you avoid having to shock to hold up mana leak on turn 2, along with many other things, with so many fetchlands in the deck being able to play them untapped is pretty easy.
Also worth noting is that they both only run 2 islands, and 1 of each other basic. I get why you would want to run 3 islands (for cryptic under a blood moon i would assume) but I've heard of players like lsv simply siding out cryptic commands vs. blood moon decks and it doesn't seem like too crazy of a strategy to me since its only 3 cards in the deck, I mean cryptic is a crazy good card don't get me wrong but I think its not an unreasonable strategy that he uses, also it seems unlikely youre going to fetch all your basics before a blood moon hit, thats gotta be pretty rare. Also if you would want to build a manabase with choke in mind, you may already consider less islands and more lands that tap for blue without the island land type on them.
and finally of course you might notice that they both have 7 fetches and 5 shocks (4 blue/x shocks, and 1 nonblue/nonblue shock, presumably because triple blue for cryptic is a concern). (for your purposes i'd say that 7 fetches wouldn't leave u with dead fetches too often, and so i don't think it would be too big of a concern for you).
Of course there are variables that might make you want to change a few of the numbers of types of lands etc, but if you're still figuring out your manabase, i'd say thats at least a good place to start since its been fairly consistent in putting up significant results. Also for anyone else out there trying to figure out their manabases.
I don't ever recommend three islands as part of the fetch package for grixis--Esper plays a long enough game that against blood moon decks, it's reasonable to sometimes have to deal with it two or even three times in a game, so the ability to long-term fetch out six basics against a UR opponent that sideboarded into heavy control components and blood moon is relevant. For grixis or UWR, I see 4 basics as plenty, and 3 being doable.
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Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Do you mean to say that you consider 4 basic Islands as being plenty and 3 being doable? With a total number of basics in the deck being ~6 (including Islands, Mountains and Swamps?
no--rather, I mean that 6 basics is far more than enough for grixis or UWR. Esper plays a longer game and should have access to them, but Grixis only needs 1 of each, 2 islands being better for supporting a dig through time under blood moon. Basic mountain really is optional. 2 islands 3 swamps is probably better than 2-2-1, simply because it enables cruel ultimatum under blood moon.
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Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
yh idk if ur ever getting to cruel mana under a blood moon either that seems rlly hard even in long protracted games, blood moon is just an evil card lol, but i think at that point it might be better to just side out cruels vs blood moon decks, that doesn't seem unreasonable at all to me id say, although thats more of an individual call ofc.
it depends. If they're playing Blue Moon, you might be really, REALLY glad of the ability to operate with all of your spells under a blood moon, because the game will go long. OTOH, you won't likely ever see all of them in most games, but the other thing to consider is that under blood moon, you realistically won't ever cast cryptic command, but you can cast dismember, bolt, terminate, snapcaster, etc, and therefore you want 2 swamps and an island if you know you're gonna have to deal with blood moon, so having three swamps and two islands doesn't seem unreasonable. You shouldn't ever have to worry about red mana. If it's delver, yeah, if you don't have immediate interaction or a batterskull, you're likely not gonna have very long to live.
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Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
well having 3 swamps in the deck makes getting to triple blue for cryptic a bit awkward not unmanageable but i think its in our interest to have cryptic be as manageable as possible (as long as the price isn't too high ofc). (also having a high blue mana count in our manabase helps in control mirrors where multiple counterspells are being cast in succession for coutnerwars, these always require a ton of blue mana). As well as terminate only requiring 1 swamp to cast, and in a pinch dismember requiring 2.1. or zero swamps. So i think just 1 swamp is manageable for playing under a blood moon, but I mean if you really want to keep cruel ultimatums a possibility vs. the decks that use blood moon, then i agree that 3 swamps is the path you are going to be wanting to take. Personally though I would just side them out and have my manabase be more geared vs the other decks out there that don't use blood moon because theres definitely a lot more of those decks than the blood moon decks.
Also I think that the reason the UWR decks have 1 basic mountain is just because its nice to be able to fetch with scalding tarn/arid mesa if you need to fetch that turn to bolt something like a goblin guide etc., and are in a matchup where your life total is pressured, burn for instance. Its just nice to have the option in the deck it does cost a manaslot in the deck so I think that its a choice that either option has a good reasoning behind it so its just up to the deck's owner to decide at that point.
I still don't like the river of tears as much--it seems far better in straight UB like faeries, where you're on a tempo gameplan. If you're not playing enough discard spells to always go t1 discard, I think an additional drowned catacombs is better than a river of tears. Looking at your sideboard, counterflux seems rather important for matchups against opposing control decks and combo decks--ratchet bomb is for a different class of matchups entirely, and I feel like it slots in better over something like rakdos charm, anger of the gods, or spellskite. That being said, I don't know what your proposed mainboard is with the listed mana base, so it could be you're already heavily prepared mainboard for combo matchups and don't need the additional help from the sideboard, but I generally feel like access to a counterflux if your mana can support it is really helpful.
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Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I am not playing any discard spells (burn and treasure cruise are too prevalent in my local meta). I think that I will hold off on any further mana base discussion until after Monday.
My current main deck is listed towards the bottom of page 99.
I prefer using ratchet bomb as an answer for blood moon decks rather than contortions my mana base to be able to make a relatively easy first gane against any deck capable of running it better. I mean I know everyone has their own school of thought on it but I've never been locked out of casting my cards for more than a few turns against such a deck.
@attiqusblaqk what match ups do you possibly need dispel in the sideboard? I mean you have way more permission in your main than I do and I don't feel it is wanted or needed. Maybe cut one for a 2nd ratchet bomb?
Hey, Pod and delver are out of they way, we are back in business!
I do not agree. I loved playing against Pod (assuming no Choke). I felt that we had great game 1 advantage.
I have been on the fence about Cruel Control for a little while and I think that today might spur my attention towards investigating a different archetype. It has been a blast discussing card selection and play style with you all.
Hey guys, this is a big shift in modern now that both delver and pod have been nerfed. As well as our marquis draw spell being axed. Not sure how this ends up looking for our deck (whether its good because pod and delver are nerfed, or a net negative result because we lost dig through time). This definitely makes me want to change a lot of cards in my current list given that we no longer have access to dig through time. For example I don't think I want to play forbidden alch anymore, we will have to see.
Upside is, less slots dedicated to pod and delver in sideboard and hey, since dig is gone, do we want to just be playing something like 2 logic knots ? this is an underrated card imo that we could, in the absence of dig through time, use our graveyard as delve for. Maybe this means 1-2 FA might still be useable for delve fuel? Will we still even want anger of the gods in the sideboard? Lots and lots of questions now that this announcement is here, I definitely think this solidifies Cruel Ultimatums, (at least 1 for sure) going back into the list since there just isnt that much card draw to catapult us ahead anymore, also the format slows down when delver is gone and pod cant get a t2 pod into play, also burn gets worse with no delver to prey upon and no access to treasure cruise anymore.
Edit: I think Mana Leak gets a bit better too since treasure cruise (castable for 1 mana on turn 4) doesnt make this card SO dead anymore. so maybe 2 mana leak 2 logic knot or something along those lines could be good?
Hey, Pod and delver are out of they way, we are back in business!
We also lost Dig which many if not all were using so we are back to the having no good draw
dig was good but treasure cruise was a lot better for other decks so i am happy with the trade off. i kind of preferred think twice more anyway . i am either playing esper or grixis control now after these bannings. thoughtseize and inquisition of kozilek are now back up there, also i think remand is a little bit weaker and mana leak a bit better with the bans.
so i expect the old meta minus pod, with the meta made up of jund, splinter twin, uwr geist tempo, zoo, tron and affinity and control(uwr,esper,grixis,uw).
i don't expect much combo or through the breach etc shenanigans returning since thoughtseize and iok are a whole lot better now too.
im not too happy about seeing more liliana of the veil but that's life.
Jumping in the bandwagon here, more demoralizing is a cruel ultimatum into a snapcaster cruel ultimatum with the snapcaster you just picked from your gy
Which in turn draws you into another cruel ultimatum
The very clear goal being to hit every conceivable land drop to keep things flowing smoothly, with as much cheap interaction via the cantrips and removal as is reasonably possible, and enough burn that the dead terminates don't cause me to lose to spell-based combo. I like spell snare a lot in what I believe will be the emerging metagame, although I feel like cruel control would be really poorly positioned against liliana, everything else seems fairly reasonable to deal with--Spell snare, unconditional goyf removal, shadow of doubt for fetchland harassment and cantripping, keranos as a value permanent to ensure you can trade with their late game topdecks, etc. The first cruel ultimatum stabilizes, the second one ends the game, the third one actually kills them if it lasts that long.
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Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Jumping in the bandwagon here, more demoralizing is a cruel ultimatum into a snapcaster cruel ultimatum with the snapcaster you just picked from your gy
Which in turn draws you into another cruel ultimatum
Still not personally sold on 2 ultimatums since we can always flashback the first but i guess i'll have to see if it's a necessary inclusion since I can see scenarios coming up vs jund where I just wanna keep drawing ultimatums after 7 mana.
But hey guys, I have an interesting idea for yall, back when liliana was insanely dominant (old modern with deathrite still legal) people had to come up with some crazy cards to combat her, and i'm hearing a lot of concern over liliana on this thread so far so I think it's not unreasonable to fill in those slots in our sideboard once dedicated to pod (R.I.P.) and fight dirty with Guerrilla Tactics. This card is very very narrow but vs. jund-type decks that are sure to rise to power now that pod and delver are gone, it can be pretty effective. Assuming they go back to playing Dark Confidant it can help get rid of that card in a pinch (if we have no removal other than guerrilla tactics, as you all know killing bob is high priority vs jund). But most importantly, it makes their liliana's backfire really well for us since after plussing her they will both have to discard a card, and lose their liliana of the veil. I think those 2 cases are enough to justify it as at least a potential sideboard slot, but I wonder what others think about it. Also if it gets thoughtseized they may end up taking 6 which is actually also significant btw.
List 1
List 2
youll notice both of these lists have very similar manabases and make good use of the checklands(shahar's list runs 3, mclaren's list runs 2 presumably because it runs 4 tec edges while the other runs only 3), from my own experience with these lands I can definitely see why. These checklands many times can come very close to being dual lands (that can't be fetched) This helps save a ton of life since you avoid having to shock to hold up mana leak on turn 2, along with many other things, with so many fetchlands in the deck being able to play them untapped is pretty easy.
Also worth noting is that they both only run 2 islands, and 1 of each other basic. I get why you would want to run 3 islands (for cryptic under a blood moon i would assume) but I've heard of players like lsv simply siding out cryptic commands vs. blood moon decks and it doesn't seem like too crazy of a strategy to me since its only 3 cards in the deck, I mean cryptic is a crazy good card don't get me wrong but I think its not an unreasonable strategy that he uses, also it seems unlikely youre going to fetch all your basics before a blood moon hit, thats gotta be pretty rare. Also if you would want to build a manabase with choke in mind, you may already consider less islands and more lands that tap for blue without the island land type on them.
and finally of course you might notice that they both have 7 fetches and 5 shocks (4 blue/x shocks, and 1 nonblue/nonblue shock, presumably because triple blue for cryptic is a concern). (for your purposes i'd say that 7 fetches wouldn't leave u with dead fetches too often, and so i don't think it would be too big of a concern for you).
Of course there are variables that might make you want to change a few of the numbers of types of lands etc, but if you're still figuring out your manabase, i'd say thats at least a good place to start since its been fairly consistent in putting up significant results. Also for anyone else out there trying to figure out their manabases.
I said esper control not esper midrange. try a singleton white sun's zenith, a pair of snapcaster mages, and colonnades +1 tarpit as your only win cons. It's slower than grixis. I've taken eleven turns to kill a storm opponent that put themselves to 1 life with a pithing needle on colonnade.
I don't ever recommend three islands as part of the fetch package for grixis--Esper plays a long enough game that against blood moon decks, it's reasonable to sometimes have to deal with it two or even three times in a game, so the ability to long-term fetch out six basics against a UR opponent that sideboarded into heavy control components and blood moon is relevant. For grixis or UWR, I see 4 basics as plenty, and 3 being doable.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
BWBAthreos, God of PassageBWB (Shadowborn Clerics)
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Also I think that the reason the UWR decks have 1 basic mountain is just because its nice to be able to fetch with scalding tarn/arid mesa if you need to fetch that turn to bolt something like a goblin guide etc., and are in a matchup where your life total is pressured, burn for instance. Its just nice to have the option in the deck it does cost a manaslot in the deck so I think that its a choice that either option has a good reasoning behind it so its just up to the deck's owner to decide at that point.
What do you think of pulling the Counterflux out of my SB for a Ratchet Bomb?
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
4 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Steam Vents
2 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Drowned Catacombs
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Sunken Ruins
1 River of Tears
2 Dispel
2 Spellskite
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Slaughter Games
2 Rakdos Charm
1 Sowing Salts
1 Shatterstorm
1 Counterflux
1 Olivia Voldaren
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
2 Dispel
2 Spellskite
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Slaughter Games
2 Rakdos Charm
1 Sowing Salts
1 Shatterstorm
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Olivia Voldaren
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
BWBAthreos, God of PassageBWB (Shadowborn Clerics)
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
My current main deck is listed towards the bottom of page 99.
BWBAthreos, God of PassageBWB (Shadowborn Clerics)
@attiqusblaqk what match ups do you possibly need dispel in the sideboard? I mean you have way more permission in your main than I do and I don't feel it is wanted or needed. Maybe cut one for a 2nd ratchet bomb?
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
- Nicol Bolas
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
I do not agree. I loved playing against Pod (assuming no Choke). I felt that we had great game 1 advantage.
I have been on the fence about Cruel Control for a little while and I think that today might spur my attention towards investigating a different archetype. It has been a blast discussing card selection and play style with you all.
BWBAthreos, God of PassageBWB (Shadowborn Clerics)
We also lost Dig which many if not all were using so we are back to the having no good draw
Upside is, less slots dedicated to pod and delver in sideboard and hey, since dig is gone, do we want to just be playing something like 2 logic knots ? this is an underrated card imo that we could, in the absence of dig through time, use our graveyard as delve for. Maybe this means 1-2 FA might still be useable for delve fuel? Will we still even want anger of the gods in the sideboard? Lots and lots of questions now that this announcement is here, I definitely think this solidifies Cruel Ultimatums, (at least 1 for sure) going back into the list since there just isnt that much card draw to catapult us ahead anymore, also the format slows down when delver is gone and pod cant get a t2 pod into play, also burn gets worse with no delver to prey upon and no access to treasure cruise anymore.
Edit: I think Mana Leak gets a bit better too since treasure cruise (castable for 1 mana on turn 4) doesnt make this card SO dead anymore. so maybe 2 mana leak 2 logic knot or something along those lines could be good?
dig was good but treasure cruise was a lot better for other decks so i am happy with the trade off. i kind of preferred think twice more anyway
so i expect the old meta minus pod, with the meta made up of jund, splinter twin, uwr geist tempo, zoo, tron and affinity and control(uwr,esper,grixis,uw).
i don't expect much combo or through the breach etc shenanigans returning since thoughtseize and iok are a whole lot better now too.
im not too happy about seeing more liliana of the veil but that's life.
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Steam Vents
2 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Sulfur Falls
4 Lightning bolt
4 Terminate
3 Anger of the Gods
Permission:
2 Logic Knot
3 Cryptic Command
2 Counterflux
4 Spell Snare
Cantrips:
2 Shadow of Doubt
2 Remand
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Cruel Ultimatum
The very clear goal being to hit every conceivable land drop to keep things flowing smoothly, with as much cheap interaction via the cantrips and removal as is reasonably possible, and enough burn that the dead terminates don't cause me to lose to spell-based combo. I like spell snare a lot in what I believe will be the emerging metagame, although I feel like cruel control would be really poorly positioned against liliana, everything else seems fairly reasonable to deal with--Spell snare, unconditional goyf removal, shadow of doubt for fetchland harassment and cantripping, keranos as a value permanent to ensure you can trade with their late game topdecks, etc. The first cruel ultimatum stabilizes, the second one ends the game, the third one actually kills them if it lasts that long.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
But hey guys, I have an interesting idea for yall, back when liliana was insanely dominant (old modern with deathrite still legal) people had to come up with some crazy cards to combat her, and i'm hearing a lot of concern over liliana on this thread so far so I think it's not unreasonable to fill in those slots in our sideboard once dedicated to pod (R.I.P.) and fight dirty with Guerrilla Tactics. This card is very very narrow but vs. jund-type decks that are sure to rise to power now that pod and delver are gone, it can be pretty effective. Assuming they go back to playing Dark Confidant it can help get rid of that card in a pinch (if we have no removal other than guerrilla tactics, as you all know killing bob is high priority vs jund). But most importantly, it makes their liliana's backfire really well for us since after plussing her they will both have to discard a card, and lose their liliana of the veil. I think those 2 cases are enough to justify it as at least a potential sideboard slot, but I wonder what others think about it. Also if it gets thoughtseized they may end up taking 6 which is actually also significant btw.