Would you suggest more Vivids, more basics, more fetches....? Perhaps even Tar Pit?
I think I would cut down to 1 mystic gate for a seachrome coast/hallowed fountain and a blood crypt/blackcleave cliffs.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Question, i'm Worried about vial decks a bit, is there any turn 1-2 answer we have for the vial itself?
Not really, but none of the predicted top decks run Vial, so it's not like we necessarily need to have an answer to it. If you're really worrying about it, side some artifact hate, otherwise don't worry about it.
hey look another deck that scoops to blood moon. Man I love this meta game.
Scooping to Blood Moon, although a big weakness, does not make the archetype unplayable. It's still quite a good control deck, and probably one of the few Blue-based ones that will make it to tables at Philly.
I need some help with the mana base, me thinks. Some ways to get around Blood Moon would be awesome. Here are the basics you should understand with the deck:
The creatures are very synergetic with each other and with Gideon Jura. Forcing your guys to attack into a 4/4 wall or 6/6 deathtoucher can be quite good. Turn 3 4/4, turn 4 Wall of Reverence is a solid 4 life every turn. Then curving out into Gideon Jura then Wurmcoil is usually a pretty big game.
4 Cryptic Commands, do I need to explain why? 1-of Path to Exile along with 2 Lightning Bolts just because I don't feel like these cards do enough to warrant anymore of them. They are fine cards, but I feel my other choices impact the game more. These cards definitely help, though, not denying that, it's why I have them in the first place. 4 Esper Charm because it's a staple in this deck; it works wonders. 4 Rune Snag because early game counters are very important. I think it's way better than Mana Leak just because the first spell you counter, they're usually tapped out. By the time it gets to late game Rune Snag may still have some kick in it, where Mana Leak would be completely useless. Obviously have to run 4 of ye ol' Snags. Punishing Fire because it's a way to make aggro decks cry. Oh, you say they have have a huge fatty on the board? Well...not sure what to do- oh wait, is that why those Path to Exile are in there? I see, I see...
I like my mana base a lot as well. I think it has a good mix of "come into play tapped lands" to "take damage" lands. I do not want to take damage, but I do not want to be slowed down either. Over all decent. I also think 26 lands is the way to go with a deck that has 4 Preordain. Oh, and obvious combo is obvious with Grove of the Burnwillows.
4 Preordain because this deck has some synergistic actions and I want the other piece to the puzzle. I also think it lets me run 26 lands (instead of 27). I like it a lot more than Ponder, I just think it's more consistent. Helps me find my early places when I need them and my late plays when I need them. A card that just straight up raises my chances of winning in every match up. Firespout: I ultimately found better than Volcanic Fallout in this current meta. As there are arguments for running Lightning Bolt and Volcanic Fallout, I find Punishing Fire and Firespout to be a more solid 2/3 damage combo. Firespout can make Zoo cry. Cruel Ultimatum: I rarely lose after I cast this; it's that an awesome win-con. This deck doesn't have too many, but this card fits the deck perfectly. A staple.
Then my SB. Vendilion Clique I use against control or combo and take out Plumeveil for it. Luminarch Ascension is for another win-con against other control decks. I seem to lack some...also not bad if I ever use this deck in multiplayer. Jace Beleren: I usually take out Gideon for this duder against control or combo decks. Thoughtseize: obviously against combo decks, but also against some control decks if some cards are just bad. Echoing Truth: Mainly for Blood Moon because I HATE that card. Bounce end their turn, then wait so I can counter it again. Hoping to hit an island by then with 3 in my deck including 6 fetches. It's also not bad in a few other match-ups as a pure tempo card. I am debating Echoing Truths, Into the Roil and Repeal now; I'm not sure how highly I should value the card advantage. Card suggestions are more than welcome here.
hey look another deck that scoops to blood moon. Man I love this meta game.
lol we do run basics. also unless its a really fast blood moon like 1-2 turn we have esper charm, and counterspells. Bounce and stuff is really easy to side in. I don't mind having a few mountains anyways. lightning bolt and firewspout can easily hold off aggro decks until I find an answer.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Sup guys! Long time Grixis player looking to delve into Modern and looking for a deck to construct. To the people who have been testing this deck vigorously; what are your thoughts as to the overall strength of this archetype?
Cruel needs to have a good matchup against combo yet be able to NOT crumble to aggro
Imma throw a rough draft at you guys just to get some ideas down
No manabase yet as I just wanted to get the main down caz I'm kinda second guessing a few cards. Gideon isn't good against combo but is good against aggro and is another win-con. Sphinx and Jace are a pretty good together although I don't know how good Sphinx is in Modern so if I cut it I'll cut the singleton Jace aswell.
Combo disruption package includes 4 I.o.K, 3 Clique, and 4 Esper Charm with 4 Commands to cement da package.
I like the idea of Spell Snare countering Goyfs and Bobs but we'll see how effective they'll play out.
7 spells are geared towards aggro but I'm thinking of testing Slagstorm in place of Firespout due to it's versatility against both aggro and control.
card explanations:
1.Cruel Ultimatum - its cruel.
2.Esper Charm - can aggressively mind rot them, deal with enchantments, and draw two at instant speed
3.Rune Snag - better than mana leak in almost any situation. it also playable game 1 against 12post
4.Path to Exile - deals with threats bolt can't
5.Preordain - best 1 Blue spell printed in a long time and a reason for it, helps dig or find land early.
6.Blightning - helps limit their options while putting them lethal to a couple hits via baneslayer angel/wurmcoil engine/cruel ultimatum
7.Mulldrifter - agressive beater thats an instant two for 1
8.Baneslayer Angel - goes miles against aggressive strategies
9.wurmcoil engine - colorless beater that only goes away via path to exile/counterspell
10.firespout - dominates aggressive strategies
11.Cryptic Command - so strong, flexible, and back breaking. hard to lose with 2 in hand
12.lightning bolt - cheaply costed efficient removal/burn
13.spreading seas - i lose to cloudpost
manabase:
1.city of brass - helps speed you up against aggressive strategies, losing a life is nigh irrelevant if you get to cast cryptic command or firespout on time.
2.exotic orchard - it seems sketchy but it has yet to do me wrong
3.reflecting pool - decks a no go without it
4.other than that we have your normal vivid/filter land set up
SB.
1. fulminator mage - i lose to cloudpost
2. spreading seas - see above
3. duress - good against combo and control
4. teferi - not too sure here, im testing him
5. damnation - extra sweeper
6. maelstrom pulse - insane in certain matchups, overcosted removal in others
notes: all in all, the deck is fun to pilot with oddly enough not too many desicions to make other than when to blightning, lol. plays like draw go control.
I;ve been goign back in forth with running Punishing fire/grove package - I know Argetum is really the advocate of the combo, Only problem i have is - Not being able to consistently get Grove, and Esper charm mana. Several times in testing i could not esper charm EOT due to grove. It's the only land that doesnt make blue, and i dont like that.
Only really having issues with post 12, There are diffrent lists being played, Being Mono U-12 post , G 12 post or the Urza 12 post. They are all annoying and tough to beat. I think that more counters and draw-go style of play is the way to beat them.
Spout / bolt and path destroy zoo/agro,
Sb - Lotta hate vs cobo and control
Testing Sacrament vs 12 post
Thoughtseize is great
Mindbreak vs U12 post and Dstorm
Spreading seas have been great when it doesnt get repealed or Rbombed vs 12post.
Shifting borders - Testing vs 12 post again, could be good once you fetch it with Teachings.
I've been sketchy about the Pact of negation - (not bad with teachings), But bad if you draw it early vs agro. might take it out for another repeal.
Mana base has been pretty steady, reminds me of When this deck was t2.
the only way I would run punishing groves is in the grixis version. It is too taxing on the mana base of the 5cc version of the deck.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
What does everyone think on spot discard in the current meta? I think Inquisition of Kozilek might be decent right now, since the format is full of 3-or-less drops and the lifeloss on Thoughtseize might hurt the aggro matchup too much.
This is the list I have been testing. Instead of spreading myself thin and trying to beat a little of everything, I really focused on trying to beat zoo/aggro/creature based decks and using my sideboard for combo/12post/control mirror. I took the base of the deck from DaGarver and then tweaked it to my liking. I second his feelings on Blue Sun's Zenith, this card is really good. The sideboard is tentative and subject to change.
Ponder might be better in your mainboard since you run the full set of Tarns, but I'm still not convinced. I really feel like you have to be running upwards of 6 fetches to make Ponder that much better than Preordain. But then, I'm mostly just a sucker for Scry effects and stacking my deck. I care a little bit less about sculpting my hand (at that time) and more about stacking my deck with things I might need later. Nothing feels worse than Pondering and seeing 2 bad cards + 1 good card and having to keep either all or none of them (assuming you don't have the fetch).
Also, how is 2 Cruels running for you? I used to run 2 but found my draws into them to be lacking short of Blue Sun, and I didn't want to run more copies of Blue Sun than I needed to.
Why Wall of Reverence? Are you that afraid of aggro that you need life-gain to beat them? Removal should do you a world of good against them, as should Firespout > Fallout, Bolt > Slash, etc. Merfolk is the only deck that cares about the difference between Spout and Fallout, and Fallout is better as a sideboard card. As for Bolt > Slash, well... most creatures in this format that you worry about are either x/6's or x/<=3's. Instant speed is a big deal when that's the situation, so I'd say Bolt is just better.
Why Soul Manipulation? What are you getting out of it that Cryptic can't give you? Disentomb is cool and all, but I'd much rather use my Cruels for that purpose.
Why Soul Manipulation? What are you getting out of it that Cryptic can't give you? Disentomb is cool and all, but I'd much rather use my Cruels for that purpose.
Why Terminate over Path to Exile? Path to Exile is generally just better.
Why Broodmate Dragon over Grave Titan? Grave Titan produces more power over more bodies on hit, is less strenuous on the mana cost, and makes more bodies over time. Flying on Broodmate is really the only thing it has going for it over Mr. Gravey.
Celestial Purge mainboard? Are you seeing that many B/R permanents to care that much about getting rid of them?
Also, for those interested, we have results from the first official Modern Daily on MODO. One Cruel list went 3-1:
His deck is very heavily favored against aggro, from what I can see. 8 1 mana removal spells, 2 Wrath effects, 4 Repeals, 3 Baneslayers (!), with 3 Kitchen Finks from the board. However, I think he's a bit too heavily boarded against aggro and too unconcerned with the combo decks and 12post. However, Ensnaring Bridge is VERY interesting, I might give it another go in the side (although a few on here have suggested it before).
Ponder might be better in your mainboard since you run the full set of Tarns, but I'm still not convinced. I really feel like you have to be running upwards of 6 fetches to make Ponder that much better than Preordain. But then, I'm mostly just a sucker for Scry effects and stacking my deck. I care a little bit less about sculpting my hand (at that time) and more about stacking my deck with things I might need later. Nothing feels worse than Pondering and seeing 2 bad cards + 1 good card and having to keep either all or none of them (assuming you don't have the fetch).
Also, how is 2 Cruels running for you? I used to run 2 but found my draws into them to be lacking short of Blue Sun, and I didn't want to run more copies of Blue Sun than I needed to.
Why Wall of Reverence? Are you that afraid of aggro that you need life-gain to beat them? Removal should do you a world of good against them, as should Firespout > Fallout, Bolt > Slash, etc. Merfolk is the only deck that cares about the difference between Spout and Fallout, and Fallout is better as a sideboard card. As for Bolt > Slash, well... most creatures in this format that you worry about are either x/6's or x/<=3's. Instant speed is a big deal when that's the situation, so I'd say Bolt is just better.
Why Soul Manipulation? What are you getting out of it that Cryptic can't give you? Disentomb is cool and all, but I'd much rather use my Cruels for that purpose.
Why Soul Manipulation? What are you getting out of it that Cryptic can't give you? Disentomb is cool and all, but I'd much rather use my Cruels for that purpose.
Why Terminate over Path to Exile? Path to Exile is generally just better.
Why Broodmate Dragon over Grave Titan? Grave Titan produces more power over more bodies on hit, is less strenuous on the mana cost, and makes more bodies over time. Flying on Broodmate is really the only thing it has going for it over Mr. Gravey.
Celestial Purge mainboard? Are you seeing that many B/R permanents to care that much about getting rid of them?
Also, for those interested, we have results from the first official Modern Daily on MODO. One Cruel list went 3-1:
His deck is very heavily favored against aggro, from what I can see. 8 1 mana removal spells, 2 Wrath effects, 4 Repeals, 3 Baneslayers (!), with 3 Kitchen Finks from the board. However, I think he's a bit too heavily boarded against aggro and too unconcerned with the combo decks and 12post. However, Ensnaring Bridge is VERY interesting, I might give it another go in the side (although a few on here have suggested it before).
My problem with the deck from the daily is that he runs almost no card draw. 2 esper charm is far from enough...He must of played some very uncompetitive decks.
Ensnaring bridge is ok, but it is only a band aid on a larger problem. They will draw a repeal and you will be sad. For ensnaring bridge to work properly you need a clock or another way to shut them out.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Not Grixis, but have people considered Voidslime and Krosan Grip? Both are excellent control cards that don't really have a parallel that I've seen in the existing decks. (I'm not really sure how you would replace Voidslime.)
My problem with the deck from the daily is that he runs almost no card draw. 2 esper charm is far from enough...He must of played some very uncompetitive decks.
Ensnaring bridge is ok, but it is only a band aid on a larger problem. They will draw a repeal and you will be sad. For ensnaring bridge to work properly you need a clock or another way to shut them out.
He has a very valid point in the card choices.
Card Draw he has:
4 Cryptic (Conditional)
2 Esper Charm (Raw Card advantage)
4 Ponder (This is card advantage, sure it isn't a direct +1, but guaranteeing that you draw action/lands at the right time is essential arguably more important than getting a direct +1.)
4 Repeal (This solves so many problems, makes sense against aggro because in reality a cruel ultimatum will end many games against aggro)
Spell Pierce(IDK how I feel about this one.)
Just because he doesn't play a lot of direct +1s doesn't mean the deck can't find what it needs. Besides Cruel Ultimatum negates anything that he loses from playing these card choices over say careful consideration or 4 esper charm. Not saying it is correct, but it is something to look at.
Not Grixis, but have people considered Voidslime and Krosan Grip? Both are excellent control cards that don't really have a parallel that I've seen in the existing decks. (I'm not really sure how you would replace Voidslime.)
Voidslime seems like a legit teachings target.
On to more important things. You guys see the 4 color teachings deck? Is that guy crazy or what?
I really like his list and all of his 1of's. All kinds of neat stuff in his package.
EDIT: You guys play teachings in your cruel control? What for? (lol)
Would you suggest more Vivids, more basics, more fetches....? Perhaps even Tar Pit?
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
I think I would cut down to 1 mystic gate for a seachrome coast/hallowed fountain and a blood crypt/blackcleave cliffs.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
:symw::symu: Delver
:symr::symb::symw: Stone-Blade
EDH:
:symr::symu::symb: Thraximundar
:symr::symw: Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
BUR Thraximundar
RBGMy Trades!UWX
Not really, but none of the predicted top decks run Vial, so it's not like we necessarily need to have an answer to it. If you're really worrying about it, side some artifact hate, otherwise don't worry about it.
Good thing Blood Mood can't be countered, right?
Thanks to Nezumi for the banner!
Scooping to Blood Moon, although a big weakness, does not make the archetype unplayable. It's still quite a good control deck, and probably one of the few Blue-based ones that will make it to tables at Philly.
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
2 Wall of Reverence
2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Cryptic Command
4 Esper Charm
4 Rune Snag
2 Punishing Fire
2 Path to Exile
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Hallowed Fountain
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Island
4 Reflecting Pool
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
1 Vivid Crag
3 Vivid Creek
1 Vivid Marsh
1 Vivid Meadow
1 Watery Grave
2 Cruel Ultimatum
3 Firespout
4 Preordain
3 Luminarch Ascension
2 Jace Beleren
3 Thoughtseize
4 Echoing Truth
I need some help with the mana base, me thinks. Some ways to get around Blood Moon would be awesome. Here are the basics you should understand with the deck:
The creatures are very synergetic with each other and with Gideon Jura. Forcing your guys to attack into a 4/4 wall or 6/6 deathtoucher can be quite good. Turn 3 4/4, turn 4 Wall of Reverence is a solid 4 life every turn. Then curving out into Gideon Jura then Wurmcoil is usually a pretty big game.
4 Cryptic Commands, do I need to explain why? 1-of Path to Exile along with 2 Lightning Bolts just because I don't feel like these cards do enough to warrant anymore of them. They are fine cards, but I feel my other choices impact the game more. These cards definitely help, though, not denying that, it's why I have them in the first place. 4 Esper Charm because it's a staple in this deck; it works wonders. 4 Rune Snag because early game counters are very important. I think it's way better than Mana Leak just because the first spell you counter, they're usually tapped out. By the time it gets to late game Rune Snag may still have some kick in it, where Mana Leak would be completely useless. Obviously have to run 4 of ye ol' Snags. Punishing Fire because it's a way to make aggro decks cry. Oh, you say they have have a huge fatty on the board? Well...not sure what to do- oh wait, is that why those Path to Exile are in there? I see, I see...
I like my mana base a lot as well. I think it has a good mix of "come into play tapped lands" to "take damage" lands. I do not want to take damage, but I do not want to be slowed down either. Over all decent. I also think 26 lands is the way to go with a deck that has 4 Preordain. Oh, and obvious combo is obvious with Grove of the Burnwillows.
4 Preordain because this deck has some synergistic actions and I want the other piece to the puzzle. I also think it lets me run 26 lands (instead of 27). I like it a lot more than Ponder, I just think it's more consistent. Helps me find my early places when I need them and my late plays when I need them. A card that just straight up raises my chances of winning in every match up. Firespout: I ultimately found better than Volcanic Fallout in this current meta. As there are arguments for running Lightning Bolt and Volcanic Fallout, I find Punishing Fire and Firespout to be a more solid 2/3 damage combo. Firespout can make Zoo cry. Cruel Ultimatum: I rarely lose after I cast this; it's that an awesome win-con. This deck doesn't have too many, but this card fits the deck perfectly. A staple.
Then my SB. Vendilion Clique I use against control or combo and take out Plumeveil for it. Luminarch Ascension is for another win-con against other control decks. I seem to lack some...also not bad if I ever use this deck in multiplayer. Jace Beleren: I usually take out Gideon for this duder against control or combo decks. Thoughtseize: obviously against combo decks, but also against some control decks if some cards are just bad. Echoing Truth: Mainly for Blood Moon because I HATE that card. Bounce end their turn, then wait so I can counter it again. Hoping to hit an island by then with 3 in my deck including 6 fetches. It's also not bad in a few other match-ups as a pure tempo card. I am debating Echoing Truths, Into the Roil and Repeal now; I'm not sure how highly I should value the card advantage. Card suggestions are more than welcome here.
Thoughts on my brew? VERY MUCH APPRECIATED.
Spell Pierce, but that card is really really weak.
Punishing Fire is the best answer next to firespout.
Repeal/Echoing Truth/Counter Magic. Unless they are derping hard on turn 1/2 with a god hand its not as big a deal as everyone makes it.
lol we do run basics. also unless its a really fast blood moon like 1-2 turn we have esper charm, and counterspells. Bounce and stuff is really easy to side in. I don't mind having a few mountains anyways. lightning bolt and firewspout can easily hold off aggro decks until I find an answer.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Cruel needs to have a good matchup against combo yet be able to NOT crumble to aggro
Imma throw a rough draft at you guys just to get some ideas down
2 Grave Titan
1 Consecrated Sphinx
2 Gideon Jura
1 Jace Beleren
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Cryptic Command
2 Cruel Ultimatum
3 Spell Snare
4 Path to Exile
2 Firespout
1 Damnation
No manabase yet as I just wanted to get the main down caz I'm kinda second guessing a few cards. Gideon isn't good against combo but is good against aggro and is another win-con. Sphinx and Jace are a pretty good together although I don't know how good Sphinx is in Modern so if I cut it I'll cut the singleton Jace aswell.
Combo disruption package includes 4 I.o.K, 3 Clique, and 4 Esper Charm with 4 Commands to cement da package.
I like the idea of Spell Snare countering Goyfs and Bobs but we'll see how effective they'll play out.
7 spells are geared towards aggro but I'm thinking of testing Slagstorm in place of Firespout due to it's versatility against both aggro and control.
Thanks to Dantcg for the Sig!
3 Esper Charm
4 Vivid Creek
3 Vivid Marsh
2 Vivid Crag
4 Reflecting Pool
2 Sunken Ruins
2 Cascade Bluffs
1 Godless Shrine
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Rune Snag
2 Path to Exile
4 Preordain
3 Blightning
2 Mulldrifter
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Firespout
4 Cryptic Command
2 Exotic Orchard
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spreading Seas
3 City of Brass
2 Spreading Seas
3 Duress
4 Fulminator Mage
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
2 Damnation
3 Maelstrom Pulse
card explanations:
1.Cruel Ultimatum - its cruel.
2.Esper Charm - can aggressively mind rot them, deal with enchantments, and draw two at instant speed
3.Rune Snag - better than mana leak in almost any situation. it also playable game 1 against 12post
4.Path to Exile - deals with threats bolt can't
5.Preordain - best 1 Blue spell printed in a long time and a reason for it, helps dig or find land early.
6.Blightning - helps limit their options while putting them lethal to a couple hits via baneslayer angel/wurmcoil engine/cruel ultimatum
7.Mulldrifter - agressive beater thats an instant two for 1
8.Baneslayer Angel - goes miles against aggressive strategies
9.wurmcoil engine - colorless beater that only goes away via path to exile/counterspell
10.firespout - dominates aggressive strategies
11.Cryptic Command - so strong, flexible, and back breaking. hard to lose with 2 in hand
12.lightning bolt - cheaply costed efficient removal/burn
13.spreading seas - i lose to cloudpost
manabase:
1.city of brass - helps speed you up against aggressive strategies, losing a life is nigh irrelevant if you get to cast cryptic command or firespout on time.
2.exotic orchard - it seems sketchy but it has yet to do me wrong
3.reflecting pool - decks a no go without it
4.other than that we have your normal vivid/filter land set up
SB.
1. fulminator mage - i lose to cloudpost
2. spreading seas - see above
3. duress - good against combo and control
4. teferi - not too sure here, im testing him
5. damnation - extra sweeper
6. maelstrom pulse - insane in certain matchups, overcosted removal in others
notes: all in all, the deck is fun to pilot with oddly enough not too many desicions to make other than when to blightning, lol. plays like draw go control.
4 esper charm
3 firespout
4 cryptic command
2 mystical teachings
4 lightning bolt
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Grave Titan
3 Path to Exile
1 pact of negation
4 mana leak
4 remand
1 Repeal
1 consume the meek
4 Vivid Creek
3 Vivid Marsh
2 Vivid Crag
4 Reflecting Pool
1 Cascade bluffs
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Steam Vents
2 Water Grave
1 Sunken Ruins
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Shifring Borders
4 spreading seas
3 Thoughtseize
2 doom blade
1 Damnation
1 Echoing Truth
I;ve been goign back in forth with running Punishing fire/grove package - I know Argetum is really the advocate of the combo, Only problem i have is - Not being able to consistently get Grove, and Esper charm mana. Several times in testing i could not esper charm EOT due to grove. It's the only land that doesnt make blue, and i dont like that.
HEre is the list with the groves
4 esper charm
3 firespout
4 cryptic command
2 mystical teachings
4 lightning bolt
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Grave Titan
2 Path to Exile
1 pact of negation
4 mana leak
4 remand
1 Repeal
2 Punishing Grove
3 Vivid Marsh
2 Vivid Crag
4 Reflecting Pool
1 Cascade bluffs
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Steam Vents
2 Water Grave
1 Sunken Ruins
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Shifring Borders
4 spreading seas
3 Thoughtseize
2 doom blade
1 Damnation
1 Echoing Truth
Only really having issues with post 12, There are diffrent lists being played, Being Mono U-12 post , G 12 post or the Urza 12 post. They are all annoying and tough to beat. I think that more counters and draw-go style of play is the way to beat them.
Spout / bolt and path destroy zoo/agro,
Sb - Lotta hate vs cobo and control
Testing Sacrament vs 12 post
Thoughtseize is great
Mindbreak vs U12 post and Dstorm
Spreading seas have been great when it doesnt get repealed or Rbombed vs 12post.
Shifting borders - Testing vs 12 post again, could be good once you fetch it with Teachings.
I've been sketchy about the Pact of negation - (not bad with teachings), But bad if you draw it early vs agro. might take it out for another repeal.
Mana base has been pretty steady, reminds me of When this deck was t2.
Let me know what you think,
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
2 Mulldrifter
2 Grave Titan
Removal - 10
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Firespout
2 Path to Exile
1 Damnation
Draw and Filter - 10
4 Ponder
4 Esper Charm
2 Blue Sun's Zenith
Control - 8
4 Mana Leak
4 Cryptic Command
Cruel - 2
2 Cruel Ultimatum
4 Reflecting Pool
4 Vivid Creek
3 Vivid Marsh
2 Vivid Meadow
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Mystic Gate
1 Cascade Bluffs
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Blood Crypt
3 Thoughtseize
1 Identity Crisis
3 Spreading Seas
2 Repeal
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Sadistic Sacrament
MTGSalvation 1v1 EDH Community Members List
Ponder might be better in your mainboard since you run the full set of Tarns, but I'm still not convinced. I really feel like you have to be running upwards of 6 fetches to make Ponder that much better than Preordain. But then, I'm mostly just a sucker for Scry effects and stacking my deck. I care a little bit less about sculpting my hand (at that time) and more about stacking my deck with things I might need later. Nothing feels worse than Pondering and seeing 2 bad cards + 1 good card and having to keep either all or none of them (assuming you don't have the fetch).
Also, how is 2 Cruels running for you? I used to run 2 but found my draws into them to be lacking short of Blue Sun, and I didn't want to run more copies of Blue Sun than I needed to.
Also, for those interested, we have results from the first official Modern Daily on MODO. One Cruel list went 3-1:
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
4 Reflecting Pool
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Vivid Crag
4 Vivid Creek
2 Vivid Marsh
2 Vivid Meadow
1 Watery Grave
3 Baneslayer Angel
2 Vendilion Clique
Other Spells (30):
3 Cruel Ultimatum
4 Cryptic Command
2 Day of Judgment
2 Esper Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Ponder
4 Repeal
3 Spell Pierce
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Disenchant
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Kitchen Finks
4 Spreading Seas
1 Vendilion Clique
His deck is very heavily favored against aggro, from what I can see. 8 1 mana removal spells, 2 Wrath effects, 4 Repeals, 3 Baneslayers (!), with 3 Kitchen Finks from the board. However, I think he's a bit too heavily boarded against aggro and too unconcerned with the combo decks and 12post. However, Ensnaring Bridge is VERY interesting, I might give it another go in the side (although a few on here have suggested it before).
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
My problem with the deck from the daily is that he runs almost no card draw. 2 esper charm is far from enough...He must of played some very uncompetitive decks.
Ensnaring bridge is ok, but it is only a band aid on a larger problem. They will draw a repeal and you will be sad. For ensnaring bridge to work properly you need a clock or another way to shut them out.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
He has a very valid point in the card choices.
Card Draw he has:
4 Cryptic (Conditional)
2 Esper Charm (Raw Card advantage)
4 Ponder (This is card advantage, sure it isn't a direct +1, but guaranteeing that you draw action/lands at the right time is essential arguably more important than getting a direct +1.)
4 Repeal (This solves so many problems, makes sense against aggro because in reality a cruel ultimatum will end many games against aggro)
Spell Pierce(IDK how I feel about this one.)
Just because he doesn't play a lot of direct +1s doesn't mean the deck can't find what it needs. Besides Cruel Ultimatum negates anything that he loses from playing these card choices over say careful consideration or 4 esper charm. Not saying it is correct, but it is something to look at.
Voidslime seems like a legit teachings target.
On to more important things. You guys see the 4 color teachings deck? Is that guy crazy or what?
I really like his list and all of his 1of's. All kinds of neat stuff in his package.
EDIT: You guys play teachings in your cruel control? What for? (lol)