i'm glad to see that you shaved a cruel ultimatum, i think only 1 is necessary now that we play dig through times. As per your sideboard I would much rather run dragon's claw than sun droplet given that we play plenty red spells and if they smash to smithereens it then at least we gained 1 life( more if we responded with a red spell) out of that, whereas if they smash the droplet we gain nothing. Thats just my preference though.
Also again I agree with you those cards are better than jace in those respective situations, but i'm talking about 1 slot in the 60 cards, you have to keep in mind that you can't fill that one slot with a cryptic/damnation fused card. It's like the rational behind why UWR plays ajani vengeant and only 3 cryptics, would the 4th cryptic be better than ajani vs scapeshift? yeah, and *** would be better vs a number of situations as well, but they play it because its a weaker effect than either of those cards, but still a decent effect that is relevant in more matchups, whats more it also doubles as a proactive win condition, Cryptic is great but if you wanna close the game out it doesn't do that same with damnation. Yes you rarely want to use cards to win the game in a control deck, but the "option" to do so is very nice to have. Also yes you have to keep up counters vs scapeshift or else you lose, I do agree. My point was that early in the game theres situations vs scapeshift where you can tap out because they don't have enough lands to kill you with just yet.
ajani doesn't really see play anymore, the format is too quick for it now and i cant imagine JAoT being any better. damnation is too good against a majority of decks to not play one copy main. a lot of our cards are going to be weaker game 1 against control and any other deck in general, but like any control deck you just want solid efficient cards game 1 and have a sideboard plan for each match up to lock up games 2 and 3 and i don't think JAoT fits in either role, its average in most match ups. the only time i want to tap mana on my turn is for my win con's whether it be tar pit/batterskull/ultimatum or a board wipe. lastly JAoT can be easily dealt with, i would much rather recommend Keranos. there is close to zero ways for any deck to remove a keranos and it will net you +1 CA whether it be in the form of a lightning bolt or draw a card every turn.
on the talk of sun droplet, i haven't played with this yet but most control decks would chose this over dragons claw, if they have smash to smithereens you were never really going to gain much life to begin with. however sun droplet has the potential to regain all of the life you have last, gaining 1 on your turn and 1 on youre opponents turn is the real kicker. it also nets back life lost from fetches and shocks, so before you know it you;re gaining a ton of life back.
I agree that damnation should be included mainboard, I never meant that JAoT should be played over it, but at a certain point you don't want to run that many damnations and thats where I said Jace might be considered. Also Ajani sees plenty of play still as a one of in a lot of UWR lists so I'm not sure why you say that. As far as Jace being easy to deal with I would agree if this was standard but he's really not easy to deal with at all in modern. And even if he is dealt with you still can always get value out of him with the -2. 3 choose 1-2 is great for this deck. Now as far as keranos goes I do like keranos in the slower matchups a lot, however he does cost 5 which is different than 4 especially since as you say the format isn't necessarily slow. Also he can also be bounced with a cryptic etc, so hes not exactly immune, and he can definitely be outraced in other matchups so i think of him more as a sideboard card.
as for just wanting solid efficient answers game 1 and then plans for g2+3 I don't disagree too much other than that we have a ton of solid answers but I think we also want just a very very few all round good answers mainboard. If this wasn't the case then I think you'd see Uwr doing what you suggested and just running more damnation/cryptic cards instead of Ajani but lists don't reflect that since a lot of them run ajani as a 1 of still.
dont get me wrong im not advocating playing more then one copy of damnation main.
but jace architect of thought as a possible card in the 75 i just dont think will work. if im casting things on my main phase in this deck on turns 4+ i want it to either control the game or win the game and JAoT does poorly in both of these. the reason why ajani sees play is cause it can actually control the board by killing a creature and can win a game by going to the dome in a control mirror while gaining life, cause uwr can race quite easily with bolts,helix,snapcaster/resto in a control mirror.
i still love this deck and so far i think i have found a solid 54-56 card main and roughly 10 cards sideboard. but rarely will a control deck be card for card and is usually tailored to the pilot. but with testing i found if i want to play 2 cruel ultimatums i would play think twice, but if i want to play x1 cruel ultimatum i would play dig through time instead.
with scapeshift and the delver decks being as prevalent as they are, 2 Cruel Ultimatums doesn't seem like a good place to be at the moment. (its more like a keranos type spell, better in grindier matchups). I definitely think just having 1 makes it far less clunky especially since we have access to dig through times now its not as strong as cruel ultimatum but its definitely one of if not the best card to be casting for around 2-4 mana in modern right now. it's incredibly powerful and I wish we could play 3 without having to make unwelcome changes to the deck, (pretty much this is what initially led me to want to play another card to make up for the lack of a third dig, and eventually led me to wanting to play the one of jace in this spot). So I would definitely recommend just playing 1 Cruel Ultimatum for sure.
I agree that ajani has traditionally been the better card for controlling a board presence like the kind zoo would build up. However if you were to ask me which id rather have vs. a young pyromancer i'd prefer jace a ton more to ajani and I think thats not entirely representative of the threats he'll be facing, but I still think its something that should be considered given the uptick in delver popularity. Also I think that i'd rather have jace in play than an ajani in a control mirror as well, more often than not counterspells are the most important thing in a control mirror instead of burn spells and if your choosing 1-2 of 3 cards every few turns I think thats much better than trying to kill someone with burn. If jace isnt better than ajani in control mirrors id at the very least say its really close. So against a field of decks that isn't just delver I think your right that jace doesnt control the board as well as ajani. but at least he can still do a somewhat decent job at it, even if its just using -2 to find a damnation or something along those lines.
well you should test Jace architect of thought and let everyone know your experience, though personally i wont play it cause it wont fit my game plan. if i was in your spot i would choose the 3rd dig over a jace for sure. you can use the dig as counter bait then drop something after it.
i also really like playing a second shadow of doubt, people are leaning towards fetch lands to help fuel delve and makes shadow a lot better, and if it becomes a stone rain well then it also helps make our mana leaks and remands better. it also cantrips which is great value, and then its just a great card against pod and scapeshift.
I hope I don't sound like I'm trolling too much, but I used to play Cruel Control until I discovered that Esper Control is more powerful and better for the current meta. Flat out, I'm winning more games with Esper than I was with Grixis. Anyway, that got me thinking that if I were to sleeve up Grixis again, what would the deck look like?
with scapeshift and the delver decks being as prevalent as they are, 2 Cruel Ultimatums doesn't seem like a good place to be at the moment.
Indeed. As much as I like that card, its not a good win condition right now. You're better of with Keranos or Batterskull beat downs. A Logic Knot or two could probably fit into this list somewhere.
I hAve been trying demigod of revenge recently and I love him as a win condition. He doedoesn't gain life which stinks but other than that I really think it's the best finisher at the moment. Haste makes a huge difference. He really dies to path but other than that if they kill it you just have to stall a little longer until you draw or dig into another one. Has anyone else tried him? Thoughts on the build with him?
I like your list a lot, The one I've been playing online changes too much to warrant posting it. Mine is pretty similar to yours though. Honestly though if you wouldn't mind I have recommendation/questions about your list. First off I would say dig through time is much better then cruise for us (especially when we play 25 lands) I play 2 anger of the gods instead of damnation, Have you found that its worth it for the extra mana? the only reason I would side it in is against Thrun and I barely see him anymore. I highly recommend checklands my ideal game mana wise is to fetch for a shock turn one then every check land I play is essentially a dual land. Also there is a reason that remand is played so much. It seems like a tempo spell at first but when you play it or play against it you realize how nasty it is. I play 4 because it is amazing but thats one of those you can tailor the amount to your liking. I would play them over counterflux and remove the negates in your sideboard for the fluxes. That's just my view on it I really appreciate your thoughts.
Attrition decks fight an uphill battle in this meta. The only way I see them overcoming enemy Delve spells is by out-Delving them. Our options, then, are to either counter them or to play more of them. This list does both.
After winning a few matches, I just jammed 4 Delver in the main and the deck is really crazy now. You can follow a Tempo plan until Delver dies and then be in the perfect position to control the game. Or you can play him mid-game and start ravaging the empty board. Or you can not play him at all and just win via attrition. With 29 Instant/Sorcery, including 4 Serum Visions, it's almost hard not to flip him.
So many cantrips! A necessary evil to fuel all that Delve, but man is it worth it. Thought Scour + Dig Through Time is infinitely better than Think Twice in this deck, and anyone running the latter needs to switch over to Delve immediately. Cantrips + Cruise even help us make all our land drops, so we don't need more than 20. And with all the land-dropping, it's not even hard to EOT Dig with mostly real mana. The card advantage and quality engines these cards grant us let us run just one Cruel Ultimatum and effectively diversify our game-enders (I've chosen Batterskull and Keranos as complimentary ones).
The sideboard is pretty standard, but I really need to stress the importance of Pyroclasm right now. Every mana counts with this many one-mana draw spells, so I've omitted Volcanic Fallout. Clasm gives you byes against UR Delver and also tears holes into Pod, Death & Taxes, Affinity, and aggro decks in general. I prefer Sun Droplet to Dragon's Claw because it's cheaper, comes down earlier, and just does more work in attrition-based games, especially since we don't play many Red spells ourselves. Why gain 1 life for every Burn spell when you can gain 2?
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I prefer Sun Droplet to Dragon's Claw because it's cheaper, comes down earlier, and just does more work in attrition-based games, especially since we don't play many Red spells ourselves. Why gain 1 life for every Burn spell when you can gain 2?
What do you mean sun droplet comes down earlier? they are the same mana cost, are they not? I do like your list but for putting in the delvers and all the delve enablers like you have 14 cards that dont control any part of the board and 9 cards that have a cmc of 5 or greater which is crazy. It's all your preference though so you do you. also since you dont have green you should run rakdos charm instead of ancient grudge the card is probably the best sideboard card around because all modes wreck major decks.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
so this is where im at. i need to cut one from sideboard but don't know what yet, but grixis actually feels solid. i recently cut 2x think twice and a cruel ultimatum for a shadow of doubt and 2x dig through time. interested in seeing how that goes, think twice was efficient for smoothing out my early game to help the 2x cruel ultimatums.
so dig though time seems even better after sideboard as you can find you're one or two of sideboard cards. but this deck can really stumble early on and think twice helped so much. so i will wait and see.
I want to thank everyone for their input on the last iteration of the Cruel Control list. There have been quite a few changes since I was shown the error of my ways. Trying to play Mystical Teachings over Dig Through Time was a huge mistake.
My current meta is composed mostly of UR Delver and Burn. What to you think of my current list?
I am a little concerned about my Fish, Pod and Jund match-ups. The Volcanic Fallout would be better as an Anger of the Gods for these match-ups but I feel like Volcanic is better for my delver heavy meta.
Your list seems pretty solid, the spell pierce is something i'm personally not too keen on vs delver though. It seems like whenever i face them I can mana leak their cruises but they seem to wait till they can play around things like that and so my leaks become fairly dead and i'd much rather have something like counterspell. The fact that their cruises usually cost exactly 1 blue mana makes it hard to counter their most important spell (cruise) with it. It seems ok against burn though. The 3 remands seem more effective countering cruise though, at least i'd think. Last thing i'd say is i'm a fan of you only playing 1 cruel ultimatum, definitely a good move imo from when people used to play 2.
Speaking of delver, one of my pet cards Leyline of the void seems like it could be decent vs them, but then I always have second thoughts about it because it seems bad to have so many in ur sideboard(i guess u could swap ur gy sb cards for these? idk), also if you don't draw it in ur opener, well... just ew lol. Some pros to it tho are that despite it costing you a card, you know almost 90% that they aren't casting cruise that game (which means if they have it in their hand it costs them a card too, and you know they're playing 4 of that card), lol. Anyway what do people think of that card?
Also another interesting question is how do people feel about Forbidden Alchemy nowadays? it was discussed a while back, but recently many delver decks have been playing thought scour. Does this mean we might consider this card again?(it seems like control's version of thought scour since we dont wanna mill our win con) or is it simply too slow in control decks? cons: turn 3 means its fairly slow. flashback even slower.
pros: dumps 4 in ur yard which is quite nice, maybe close-ish to half the effect of dig through time ? arguable i guess.
what would it's role be then? just card quality and an enabler to play more dig through times in the deck? with small potential to add card advantage far far later in the game? not sure if that suits us well enough, still its worth discussing i guess.
Maybe you also want to consider going 9 fetches with 4 Scalding Tarns or drop the Mire for a Tarn. I would possibly run 9 fetches and 4 Tar pits instead of the Drowned Catacombs.
Keranos I think is still too slow. Especially if your meta has burn, fish and delver. An extra electrlyze, spell snare, anger of the gods, all fit the slot I think.
I would like 2x edict effects on the SB because boggles MU is simply terrible. I would replace the Fallouts if you chose to go Anger of the Gods main. Also i would up the number of Slaughter Games to 3 to secure scapeshift MU. 1x thoughtseize is not all that relevant as well. Either up it or replace it with Threads of disloyalty (which is amazing) or something else.
I do like the idea of running an Anger of the Gods in the main and the one Thoughtsieze in the board does feel a little clunky.
Do you think that the 3 Volcanics in the board are too many? (Assuming that my mainboard remains unchanged)
Do you think that I can get away with a 4th tar pit without hurting my ability to damnation on 4 or electrolyze on 3?
It feels like a 4th tar pit would help to close out the game when I am struggling to find the Cruel Ultimatum. This would also allow me to cut the Keranos.
What is the opinion on devour flesh versus tribute to hunger?
Sapientissimus, I have been following the thread pretty closely. I cut the second Cruel as suggested here and it really helped to smooth things out.
Remanding a Treasure cruise or a Liiving End does feel pretty good. I have been using the spell pierce as a way to fight a counter war (a more maindeckable copy of dispel), while using remands as 'soft' cryptics.
How many Leylines do you need to SB for it to be worth the inclusion? I have played RiP against UR delver and leaving their GY exiled with >1 copy of Treasure Cruise stranded in their hand is brutal.
I would like to hear if someone has tested with a split of Forbidden Alchemy and Dig Through Time. FA sounds like a faster way to dig for SB answers in games 2 and 3. I feel that DTT is great for setting up future turns while FA feels like hunting for a killswitch. This may just be a playstyle choice.
you like FA? i still dont know aobut it, i only suggested it as an idea because of its synergy with DTT. also lol, I have no idea about the leyline thing, does keeping UR delver's GY empty really do that much against them? lol that just sounds really funny tbh I've never actually tried it personally so I have/had no idea, I would say though that if cruise is really the only thing you care about I suppose leyline of the void could be decent although i'd really recommend someone test that out beforehand because it sounds like it could go either way.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
ajani doesn't really see play anymore, the format is too quick for it now and i cant imagine JAoT being any better. damnation is too good against a majority of decks to not play one copy main. a lot of our cards are going to be weaker game 1 against control and any other deck in general, but like any control deck you just want solid efficient cards game 1 and have a sideboard plan for each match up to lock up games 2 and 3 and i don't think JAoT fits in either role, its average in most match ups. the only time i want to tap mana on my turn is for my win con's whether it be tar pit/batterskull/ultimatum or a board wipe. lastly JAoT can be easily dealt with, i would much rather recommend Keranos. there is close to zero ways for any deck to remove a keranos and it will net you +1 CA whether it be in the form of a lightning bolt or draw a card every turn.
on the talk of sun droplet, i haven't played with this yet but most control decks would chose this over dragons claw, if they have smash to smithereens you were never really going to gain much life to begin with. however sun droplet has the potential to regain all of the life you have last, gaining 1 on your turn and 1 on youre opponents turn is the real kicker. it also nets back life lost from fetches and shocks, so before you know it you;re gaining a ton of life back.
as for just wanting solid efficient answers game 1 and then plans for g2+3 I don't disagree too much other than that we have a ton of solid answers but I think we also want just a very very few all round good answers mainboard. If this wasn't the case then I think you'd see Uwr doing what you suggested and just running more damnation/cryptic cards instead of Ajani but lists don't reflect that since a lot of them run ajani as a 1 of still.
but jace architect of thought as a possible card in the 75 i just dont think will work. if im casting things on my main phase in this deck on turns 4+ i want it to either control the game or win the game and JAoT does poorly in both of these. the reason why ajani sees play is cause it can actually control the board by killing a creature and can win a game by going to the dome in a control mirror while gaining life, cause uwr can race quite easily with bolts,helix,snapcaster/resto in a control mirror.
i still love this deck and so far i think i have found a solid 54-56 card main and roughly 10 cards sideboard. but rarely will a control deck be card for card and is usually tailored to the pilot. but with testing i found if i want to play 2 cruel ultimatums i would play think twice, but if i want to play x1 cruel ultimatum i would play dig through time instead.
I agree that ajani has traditionally been the better card for controlling a board presence like the kind zoo would build up. However if you were to ask me which id rather have vs. a young pyromancer i'd prefer jace a ton more to ajani and I think thats not entirely representative of the threats he'll be facing, but I still think its something that should be considered given the uptick in delver popularity. Also I think that i'd rather have jace in play than an ajani in a control mirror as well, more often than not counterspells are the most important thing in a control mirror instead of burn spells and if your choosing 1-2 of 3 cards every few turns I think thats much better than trying to kill someone with burn. If jace isnt better than ajani in control mirrors id at the very least say its really close. So against a field of decks that isn't just delver I think your right that jace doesnt control the board as well as ajani. but at least he can still do a somewhat decent job at it, even if its just using -2 to find a damnation or something along those lines.
i also really like playing a second shadow of doubt, people are leaning towards fetch lands to help fuel delve and makes shadow a lot better, and if it becomes a stone rain well then it also helps make our mana leaks and remands better. it also cantrips which is great value, and then its just a great card against pod and scapeshift.
Indeed. As much as I like that card, its not a good win condition right now. You're better of with Keranos or Batterskull beat downs. A Logic Knot or two could probably fit into this list somewhere.
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Batterskull
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Vendilion clique
Draw/Counter/Removal
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Electrolyze
3 Spell Snare
2 Remand
4 Cryptic Command
4 Think Twice
2 Dig Through Time
1 Damnation
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Terminate
1 Blood Crypt
3 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Island
3 Mountain
3 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Swamp
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Watery Grave
2 Darkblast
2 Suffer the Past
2 Rakdos Charm
2 Shadow of Doubt
2 Spellskite
2 Counterflux
1 Consume the Meek
1 Keranos, God of Storms
Cruel Control
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Keranos, God of Storms
Artifacts (1):
1 Batterskull
Instants and Sorceries (28):
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozeliek
1 Slaughter Pact
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Terminate
1 Dreadbore
3 Countersquall
2 Counterflux
3 Cryptic Command
2 Damnation
1 Cruel Ultimatum
3 Treasure Cruise
3 Blooded Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Creeping Tarpit
3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Steam Vents
2 Blood Crypt
2 Watery Grave
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Countersquall
2 Counterflux
2 Negate
2 Combust
3 Sowing Salt
2 Slaughter Games
2 Inquisition of Kozeliek
1 Anger of the Gods
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Keranos, God of Storms
Other permanents (1)
1 Batterskull
Instant (18)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Thought Scour
2 Spell Snare
2 Mana Leak
2 Terminate
4 Dig Through Time
Sorcery (11)
4 Serum Visions
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Pyroclasm
2 Treasure Cruise
1 Cruel Ultimatum
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Blood Crypt
2 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Sun Droplet
1 Dispel
2 Terminate
2 Pyroclasm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Faithless Looting
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
Attrition decks fight an uphill battle in this meta. The only way I see them overcoming enemy Delve spells is by out-Delving them. Our options, then, are to either counter them or to play more of them. This list does both.
After winning a few matches, I just jammed 4 Delver in the main and the deck is really crazy now. You can follow a Tempo plan until Delver dies and then be in the perfect position to control the game. Or you can play him mid-game and start ravaging the empty board. Or you can not play him at all and just win via attrition. With 29 Instant/Sorcery, including 4 Serum Visions, it's almost hard not to flip him.
So many cantrips! A necessary evil to fuel all that Delve, but man is it worth it. Thought Scour + Dig Through Time is infinitely better than Think Twice in this deck, and anyone running the latter needs to switch over to Delve immediately. Cantrips + Cruise even help us make all our land drops, so we don't need more than 20. And with all the land-dropping, it's not even hard to EOT Dig with mostly real mana. The card advantage and quality engines these cards grant us let us run just one Cruel Ultimatum and effectively diversify our game-enders (I've chosen Batterskull and Keranos as complimentary ones).
The sideboard is pretty standard, but I really need to stress the importance of Pyroclasm right now. Every mana counts with this many one-mana draw spells, so I've omitted Volcanic Fallout. Clasm gives you byes against UR Delver and also tears holes into Pod, Death & Taxes, Affinity, and aggro decks in general. I prefer Sun Droplet to Dragon's Claw because it's cheaper, comes down earlier, and just does more work in attrition-based games, especially since we don't play many Red spells ourselves. Why gain 1 life for every Burn spell when you can gain 2?
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
What do you mean sun droplet comes down earlier? they are the same mana cost, are they not? I do like your list but for putting in the delvers and all the delve enablers like you have 14 cards that dont control any part of the board and 9 cards that have a cmc of 5 or greater which is crazy. It's all your preference though so you do you. also since you dont have green you should run rakdos charm instead of ancient grudge the card is probably the best sideboard card around because all modes wreck major decks.
Don't let my rookie mistakes misguide you! Delve is nuts in this archetype! Nuuuuuts!
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Hey, Girds -- your list is up on HoTC!
My current meta is composed mostly of UR Delver and Burn. What to you think of my current list?
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Keranos, God of Storms
Artifact (1)
1 Batterskull
Instant (24)
2 Spell Pierce
4 Mana Leak
3 Remand
3 Cryptic Command
3 Electrolyze
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate
3 Dig Through Time
Sorcery (5)
3 Duress
1 Damnation
1 Cruel Ultimatum
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Blood Crypt
2 Steam Vents
2 Watery Grave
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Island
1 Sulfur Falls
2 Drowned Catacombs
3 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Thoughtseize
1 Sowing Salt
1 Shatterstorm
2 Slaughter Games
1 Counterflux
2 Dispel
2 Rakdos Charm
3 Volcanic Fallout
2 Spellskite
I am a little concerned about my Fish, Pod and Jund match-ups. The Volcanic Fallout would be better as an Anger of the Gods for these match-ups but I feel like Volcanic is better for my delver heavy meta.
BWBAthreos, God of PassageBWB (Shadowborn Clerics)
Speaking of delver, one of my pet cards Leyline of the void seems like it could be decent vs them, but then I always have second thoughts about it because it seems bad to have so many in ur sideboard(i guess u could swap ur gy sb cards for these? idk), also if you don't draw it in ur opener, well... just ew lol. Some pros to it tho are that despite it costing you a card, you know almost 90% that they aren't casting cruise that game (which means if they have it in their hand it costs them a card too, and you know they're playing 4 of that card), lol. Anyway what do people think of that card?
Also another interesting question is how do people feel about Forbidden Alchemy nowadays? it was discussed a while back, but recently many delver decks have been playing thought scour. Does this mean we might consider this card again?(it seems like control's version of thought scour since we dont wanna mill our win con) or is it simply too slow in control decks? cons: turn 3 means its fairly slow. flashback even slower.
pros: dumps 4 in ur yard which is quite nice, maybe close-ish to half the effect of dig through time ? arguable i guess.
what would it's role be then? just card quality and an enabler to play more dig through times in the deck? with small potential to add card advantage far far later in the game? not sure if that suits us well enough, still its worth discussing i guess.
I also never liked remands on cruel control decks. I would suggest running 1 Anger of the Gods main and 2 Forbidden Alchemy main (as Sapientissiums suggests) instead of the remands.
Maybe you also want to consider going 9 fetches with 4 Scalding Tarns or drop the Mire for a Tarn. I would possibly run 9 fetches and 4 Tar pits instead of the Drowned Catacombs.
Keranos I think is still too slow. Especially if your meta has burn, fish and delver. An extra electrlyze, spell snare, anger of the gods, all fit the slot I think.
I would like 2x edict effects on the SB because boggles MU is simply terrible. I would replace the Fallouts if you chose to go Anger of the Gods main. Also i would up the number of Slaughter Games to 3 to secure scapeshift MU. 1x thoughtseize is not all that relevant as well. Either up it or replace it with Threads of disloyalty (which is amazing) or something else.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
Do you think that the 3 Volcanics in the board are too many? (Assuming that my mainboard remains unchanged)
Do you think that I can get away with a 4th tar pit without hurting my ability to damnation on 4 or electrolyze on 3?
It feels like a 4th tar pit would help to close out the game when I am struggling to find the Cruel Ultimatum. This would also allow me to cut the Keranos.
What is the opinion on devour flesh versus tribute to hunger?
BWBAthreos, God of PassageBWB (Shadowborn Clerics)
Remanding a Treasure cruise or a Liiving End does feel pretty good. I have been using the spell pierce as a way to fight a counter war (a more maindeckable copy of dispel), while using remands as 'soft' cryptics.
How many Leylines do you need to SB for it to be worth the inclusion? I have played RiP against UR delver and leaving their GY exiled with >1 copy of Treasure Cruise stranded in their hand is brutal.
I would like to hear if someone has tested with a split of Forbidden Alchemy and Dig Through Time. FA sounds like a faster way to dig for SB answers in games 2 and 3. I feel that DTT is great for setting up future turns while FA feels like hunting for a killswitch. This may just be a playstyle choice.
BWBAthreos, God of PassageBWB (Shadowborn Clerics)