Always choose Scalding Tarn over Bloodstained Mire. I would suggest something like 4 Scalding Tarn, 3 Polluted Delta 1 Bloodstained mire. Also, why would you want to run volcanic fallout and consume the meek over damnation? Fallout and Consume basically hit the same targets (but fallout doesnt hit tarmo). Damnation hits larger threats which they actually exist.
Also i don't get the inclusion of izzet charm. The card does a lot of things badly. If you are going to run a teachings list (which i wouldn't recommend) then you might as well run more powerful cards than izzer charm.
The teachings package is not that efficient. Whats your plan against Thrun, the last troll ? This is a very real card and I don't think slotting in something like devour flesh would really cut it. My biggest concern with consume the meek is that it completely misses Thrun. Same with ur other wraths and you cant teachings for Damnation so you need another way of finding it, if you can't tutor for it the next best thing is Dig through time. Whats more mystical teachings doesn't help you close a game nearly as well as dig through time since your win con. Cruel Ultimatum is a sorcery.
I think teachings for Teferi, mage of Zhalfir is definitely one of the strongest cards in your sideboard and a real plan vs control decks or combo decks that can remand your ultimatum then combo off, with him in play we can resolve a cruel guaranteed so thats why i like him. That and along with him making their counterspells have basically blank text. You might want to at least cut 1 teachings for 1 dig through time, also maybe try some Olivia Voldaren action in the side against Pod I think i'd recommend it :), its fairly good vs jund also. But yeah a lot of the bullets in the side look fairly clunky as it stands currently. I'd much prefer running 2 thoughtseize and either a duress or inquisition in the sideboard instead of some of the more situational and less impactful bullets. This would streamline your deck a bit more which I think gives it more consistency and thats generally preferable since modern is such a fast format. I am a fan of the no discard spells mainboard though :).
From my recent testings I'm convinced that we should not be running any less than 2 copies of Dig Through Time. This card is amazing. At this point though I'm a little concerned with 2 copies in addition to 2 Cruel Ultimatums. Having 2+ of these in your hand in the early game is pretty terrible. I think going down to 1 Ultimatum with 2 Digs is probably better. We're not casting Ultimatum till very late in the game anyway, and if we desperately need it then we can Dig for it. I think I will try these numbers out and see how they do. But seriously, Dig Through Time is so good. I would be playing 4 copies if it wasn't competing with the graveyard with Snapcaster Mage.
I really don't like the though of tapping out for Jace Beleren but have not had much opportunity to playtest it.
This was originally a Liliana of the Veil, but testing against Jund demonstrated how much the +1 hurts when you are trying to hold counter magic or build a manabase to cast Cruel Ultimatum.
I also have concerns about the Affinity and Tron (RG or U) match-up. Affinity, I have considered Shatterstorm but Consume the Meek already gets all of their creatures, including Inkmoth Nexus and Blinkmoth Nexus. Tron, I have considered Sowing Salt but find that a resolved Sundering Titan is a complete hoser. Has anyone considered Polymorphist's Jest as a way to get around hexproof, large, or generally oddball creatures?
I really don't like the though of tapping out for Jace Beleren but have not had much opportunity to playtest it.
This was originally a Liliana of the Veil, but testing against Jund demonstrated how much the +1 hurts when you are trying to hold counter magic or build a manabase to cast Cruel Ultimatum.
I also have concerns about the Affinity and Tron (RG or U) match-up. Affinity, I have considered Shatterstorm but Consume the Meek already gets all of their creatures, including Inkmoth Nexus and Blinkmoth Nexus. Tron, I have considered Sowing Salt but find that a resolved Sundering Titan is a complete hoser. Has anyone considered Polymorphist's Jest as a way to get around hexproof, large, or generally oddball creatures?
There's so many 1 of's and 2 of's in your deck I don't know how you could even get a consistent idea of how this deck plays. It seems like it would be different every time you play it. This isn't really where you want to be. The flexibility of Mystical Teachings is pretty much negated by the fact that it is too slow in this format, and diluting your deck with a bunch of situational 1 of's makes you much more vulnerable to all the dangerous cards being played against you in modern.
Dig Through Time is the real deal. Your reasoning with Rest in Peace is pretty weak, because if someone actually does side it in just because you're running Dig, that's actually great for you because they're not instead playing a card that is actually killing you. Either way, Rest in Peace would limit the effectiveness of the two other cards you mentioned anyway. Think Twice and Forbidden Alchemy are too little impact and too slow in this format. Dig Through Time finds us the answers we need almost every time.
Sorry if this response was a little curt, but I've tested many of these cards as well as the Teachings-type deck, and it's just not nearly as effective as the alternatives options I mentioned. We're already at a slight disadvantage in playing this deck as opposed to UWR Control, so we can't really dilute the deck any further by running fringe options.
I have been discussing the Dig Through Time quite a bit lately. I don't know about running that card as a 4 of but it sounds better and better every time that I discuss it.
In regards to the direction for my main deck and sideboard, are there any thoughts on the tech for those 2 slots and sideboard options?
I appreciate the input RockerGamer06 but your response didn't really answer any of my questions.
We have found in standard the card Dig is ridiculously good and easily playable as a 4 of and that is without the easy access to a million fetches and can trips.
I feel like you should choose your best cards and play them as 4 ofs. Hand disruption, bolt, mana leak (or preferred counter), anger, cryptic Dig. Then you fill the rest with 2 of black spot removal and damnation
Then have just 1 of win cons cruel/keranos/battleskull (whatever the win con isn't really that important) which you use Dig to go find when you ready to win.
Also creeping tar pit
This playing a stack of 1 of potential silver bullets seems wrong just feels like it would make the deck inconsistent when it already has mana problems.
it is playable as a 4 of in standard, but standard doesn't have snapcaster mage and is also slower. I still think its playable as about around a 2 of though (talking about dig through time). I don't know if I agree that we should play 4 of all of those cards you listed. Like 4 anger of the gods sounds not that great, same with hand disruption, i prefer sidedboarding into that sort of plan. But for the most part we do want to have more than 1 of's our best cards.
@rockergamer
About your manabase, It looks kinda sketch to me. Some of the lands seem pretty weak like that kamigawa pseudo swamp land that gives fear, or dreadship reef. Also the lavaclaw reaches i definitely don't like that land and think creeping tar pit is much stronger since it races vs creature decks like pod so so much better.
I've been playing with this Manabase and I really like how it has been performing. It features land destruction as well which helps a lot against certain matchups like Tron and scapeshift along with a slew of other matchups.
I'd definitely recommend you try it out its a really powerful manabase. Also if you face less scapeshift in your meta you can switch one of the tect edges for a second ghost quarter. This is because ghost quarter has a trick that helps you cast cruel ultimatum. For instance you can tap something like a watery grave for mana and then destroy it with ghost quarter and search your library for the basic you need. This means your down a land next turn, but for a single turn you can make ghost quarter tap for R,U, or B effectively. It's a nice trick but it does come at a high cost.
you should also note though that tec edge can tap for black if you get your urborg out which happens somewhat frequently given how late in the game casting ultimatum usually happens.
Anger is a 2 of at most if you are running Damnations also possibly you should have zero main with Damnations. Dig as a four of? Are you running no Snapcasters? Because if you are running Snapcasters and Dig that seems pretty overkill on your yard.
Anger is a 2 of at most if you are running Damnations also possibly you should have zero main with Damnations. Dig as a four of? Are you running no Snapcasters? Because if you are running Snapcasters and Dig that seems pretty overkill on your yard.
Who are you directing this towards? Nobody in this thread has suggested actually running 4 Dig Through Time in this deck. It has been stated multiple times that 2 is the correct number.
anger of the gods can wipe most of the board a turn earlier, while damnation guarantees to destroy thrun and goyfs. interesting trade off. i run 2 AoTGs and a singleton damnation main, since i feel more vulnerable to fast aggro and burn decks than midrange decks. maybe i should up my damnation count. any suggestions?
My testing has been a ton of UR delver so far, and I am loving 2 of Darkblast maindeck since it wrecks them, and makes dig amazing. Also running 1 murderous cut to try it out with the digs.
I am leaning towards just 1 maindeck damnantion because as mentioned the midrange decks are getting killed off by delver Online. Current t1 is Burn/Delver/Affinity/Pod/Ascendancy combo where damnation is basically not better than anger in any matchup. Its just a bit slow
I think just 1 main-deck wrath is fine since we have quite a bit of removal already. It should also probably be just Damnation too since it seems to never be terrible unlike anger (although anger has its purposes ofc).
Darkblast is actually kind of tempting. On the plus side its great against certain decks (this makes me think sideboard more than anything) and fuels our delve (although if its dead in the match up which a -1/-1 or -2/-2 effect can easily be, the dredge isn't exactly free as it causes us to effectively skip our draw step. something to consider) the fueling of our delve can be great but i'm also not sure we actually need to fuel our delve since it seems to work alright on its own.
On the cons side dredge in a control deck with no recurrence for our win conditions seems kind of anti synergistic. Although I guess it would only happen rarely and we do have other ways to potentially win. Something to consider I guess.
On the topic of Anger of the gods as a wrath, I agree it does seem better than damnation vs. Zoo for instance, although there's definitely some builds/ situations against/of Zoo where you'd rather have Damnation in hand. However, I think in most cases Anger is slightly better vs them. I'd go 50/50 1 Damnation main 1 AoTG Sideboard if I were you.
Ideally, I think you want like 2 AotG's in the side vs. Pod but i've noticed that they consistenly strip it out of your hand before its backbreaking against them. This is done with effects like Sin Collector and Entomber Exarch I find that their gameplan is usually to pod into those creatures, so because of this I had the idea of replacing that 2nd AotG with Olivia Voldaren because I think they have similar effects. Where AotG swept the board, Olivia dodges both of the previously mentioned cards and a ton of their ways to remove creatures such as Abrupt Decay and Shriekmaw and whats more they're forced to deal with her as her effect is both consistently oppressive to their plan and grows her as a threat to beat their face in with. I'm wondering what you guys think about the Olivia > 2nd copy of AotG plan. Do you guys think it works or is there an even better card to hose pod with?
Also I do have another question on the topic of pod. Do you guys like siding in Izzet Staticaster against pod? It has similar applications as olivia and helps with that gameplan, it kills a lot of their dorks and helps ping persist critters once you terminate them, such as kitchen finks, so idk I think it could go either way.
Hey Sapientissimus, the land base you linked is awsome - thanks! Do you think you could list your current deck? I'm currently in the middle of building cruel control, will finish this weekend, but am super curious how your 75 looks.
*Edit: I edited the deck a tiny bit to tighten up a few things that I believed to make the deck play smoother.
so this is what i've got atm. Lately i've been thinking about only one thing really, considering shaving 1 cruel ultimatum for something like a dig through time or mystical teachings. The reason for this is that i'd love another dig through time since the card quality it gives you can just find you the 1 cruel ultimatum or batterskull you need to win the game which is what the second copy of CU was doing also. So it slows you down just a little in terms of winning if you replace the 2nd Cruel Ultimatum, but on the other hand it is usually much more versatile earlier in the game than cruel ultimatum would be and it can always get you super close if not outright find you the CU or Batterskull you need, + a card.
However the only problem is can this deck afford THAT much GY fuel (also i'm worried that much commitment to the GY would hurt us heavily vs ppl running relic of progenitus). The answer is probably not with 4 snaps, so I was thinking a one of mystical teachings might not be the worst since it can find you dig through time (acting like the 3rd dig) without having to tax your graveyard so heavily. Or we could just play 2 Cruel Ultimatum which isn't the worst either, still not sure.
Sidenote, I wish Counterspell was legal in modern... the combination of that and chaining dig through times sounds SO unstoppable in the late-game lol.
BWBAthreos, God of PassageBWB (Shadowborn Clerics)
Also i don't get the inclusion of izzet charm. The card does a lot of things badly. If you are going to run a teachings list (which i wouldn't recommend) then you might as well run more powerful cards than izzer charm.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
I think teachings for Teferi, mage of Zhalfir is definitely one of the strongest cards in your sideboard and a real plan vs control decks or combo decks that can remand your ultimatum then combo off, with him in play we can resolve a cruel guaranteed so thats why i like him. That and along with him making their counterspells have basically blank text. You might want to at least cut 1 teachings for 1 dig through time, also maybe try some Olivia Voldaren action in the side against Pod I think i'd recommend it :), its fairly good vs jund also. But yeah a lot of the bullets in the side look fairly clunky as it stands currently. I'd much prefer running 2 thoughtseize and either a duress or inquisition in the sideboard instead of some of the more situational and less impactful bullets. This would streamline your deck a bit more which I think gives it more consistency and thats generally preferable since modern is such a fast format. I am a fan of the no discard spells mainboard though :).
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember
2 Terminate
1 Consume the Meek
2 Mana Leak
1 Negate
2 Remand
2 Cryptic Command
1 Think Twice
1 Shadow of Doubt
2 Mystical Teachings
2 Cruel Ultimatum
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Olivia Voldaren
2 Jace Beleren
1 Batterskull
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Dreadship Reef
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Blood Crypt
1 Watery Grave
2 Drowned Catacomb
1 Sulfur Falls
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Consume the Meek
1 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Counterflux
2 Slaughter Games
1 Thoughtseize
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Tribute to Hunger
1 Combust
1 Keranos, God of Storms
Mainboard Concerns:
I really don't like the though of tapping out for Jace Beleren but have not had much opportunity to playtest it.
This was originally a Liliana of the Veil, but testing against Jund demonstrated how much the +1 hurts when you are trying to hold counter magic or build a manabase to cast Cruel Ultimatum.
I have also tried Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver in this slot and was not impressed. I feel that my opponent could ignore Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver and it would never have an impact on the game.
I have considered filing these slots with Think Twice and Forbidden Alchemy. I know that these do not draw as well as Dig Through Time but they are much more resilient. Rest in Peace is a thing and I really don't like the idea of being stuck paying 6UU for Dig Through Time.
Sideboard Concerns:
My meta is uncomfortably burn heavy slightly less than 50% of the field is on Burn. I think that I could easily drop the 2x Slaughter Games, Thoughtseize, and Surgical Extraction. Maybe find more room for counterspells Outwit, Dispel, or Countersquall. There could even be room for a Spellskite or two.
I also have concerns about the Affinity and Tron (RG or U) match-up. Affinity, I have considered Shatterstorm but Consume the Meek already gets all of their creatures, including Inkmoth Nexus and Blinkmoth Nexus. Tron, I have considered Sowing Salt but find that a resolved Sundering Titan is a complete hoser. Has anyone considered Polymorphist's Jest as a way to get around hexproof, large, or generally oddball creatures?
BWBAthreos, God of PassageBWB (Shadowborn Clerics)
There's so many 1 of's and 2 of's in your deck I don't know how you could even get a consistent idea of how this deck plays. It seems like it would be different every time you play it. This isn't really where you want to be. The flexibility of Mystical Teachings is pretty much negated by the fact that it is too slow in this format, and diluting your deck with a bunch of situational 1 of's makes you much more vulnerable to all the dangerous cards being played against you in modern.
I suggest you cut out the fringe cards and fill in the essentials. Always 4 Lightning Bolt and 4 Cryptic Command, cut the Consume the Meek for a couple Damnation or Anger of the Gods. The Talisman of Dominance should be cut for more land, and the mana base needs to be more consistent as well with more fetchlands.
Dig Through Time is the real deal. Your reasoning with Rest in Peace is pretty weak, because if someone actually does side it in just because you're running Dig, that's actually great for you because they're not instead playing a card that is actually killing you. Either way, Rest in Peace would limit the effectiveness of the two other cards you mentioned anyway. Think Twice and Forbidden Alchemy are too little impact and too slow in this format. Dig Through Time finds us the answers we need almost every time.
Sorry if this response was a little curt, but I've tested many of these cards as well as the Teachings-type deck, and it's just not nearly as effective as the alternatives options I mentioned. We're already at a slight disadvantage in playing this deck as opposed to UWR Control, so we can't really dilute the deck any further by running fringe options.
In regards to the direction for my main deck and sideboard, are there any thoughts on the tech for those 2 slots and sideboard options?
I appreciate the input RockerGamer06 but your response didn't really answer any of my questions.
BWBAthreos, God of PassageBWB (Shadowborn Clerics)
I feel like you should choose your best cards and play them as 4 ofs. Hand disruption, bolt, mana leak (or preferred counter), anger, cryptic Dig. Then you fill the rest with 2 of black spot removal and damnation
Then have just 1 of win cons cruel/keranos/battleskull (whatever the win con isn't really that important) which you use Dig to go find when you ready to win.
Also creeping tar pit
This playing a stack of 1 of potential silver bullets seems wrong just feels like it would make the deck inconsistent when it already has mana problems.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
@rockergamer
About your manabase, It looks kinda sketch to me. Some of the lands seem pretty weak like that kamigawa pseudo swamp land that gives fear, or dreadship reef. Also the lavaclaw reaches i definitely don't like that land and think creeping tar pit is much stronger since it races vs creature decks like pod so so much better.
I've been playing with this Manabase and I really like how it has been performing. It features land destruction as well which helps a lot against certain matchups like Tron and scapeshift along with a slew of other matchups.
1x Mountain
1x Swamp
4x Creeping Tar Pit
4x Polluted Delta
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Steam Vents
2x Watery Grave
1x Blood Crypt
2x Sulfur Falls
1x Ghost Quarter
2x Tectonic Edge
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
I'd definitely recommend you try it out its a really powerful manabase. Also if you face less scapeshift in your meta you can switch one of the tect edges for a second ghost quarter. This is because ghost quarter has a trick that helps you cast cruel ultimatum. For instance you can tap something like a watery grave for mana and then destroy it with ghost quarter and search your library for the basic you need. This means your down a land next turn, but for a single turn you can make ghost quarter tap for R,U, or B effectively. It's a nice trick but it does come at a high cost.
you should also note though that tec edge can tap for black if you get your urborg out which happens somewhat frequently given how late in the game casting ultimatum usually happens.
Cruel Control
Niv-Mizzet EDH
Cruel Tezz
Who are you directing this towards? Nobody in this thread has suggested actually running 4 Dig Through Time in this deck. It has been stated multiple times that 2 is the correct number.
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | URPhoenixUR | UWMiraclesUW |GBRJundGBR | UBFaeriesUB | UBWAd NauseumUBW |GBRWBlueless ShadowGBRW |
MTGA
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | UTempoU
I am leaning towards just 1 maindeck damnantion because as mentioned the midrange decks are getting killed off by delver Online. Current t1 is Burn/Delver/Affinity/Pod/Ascendancy combo where damnation is basically not better than anger in any matchup. Its just a bit slow
Darkblast is actually kind of tempting. On the plus side its great against certain decks (this makes me think sideboard more than anything) and fuels our delve (although if its dead in the match up which a -1/-1 or -2/-2 effect can easily be, the dredge isn't exactly free as it causes us to effectively skip our draw step. something to consider) the fueling of our delve can be great but i'm also not sure we actually need to fuel our delve since it seems to work alright on its own.
On the cons side dredge in a control deck with no recurrence for our win conditions seems kind of anti synergistic. Although I guess it would only happen rarely and we do have other ways to potentially win. Something to consider I guess.
On the topic of Anger of the gods as a wrath, I agree it does seem better than damnation vs. Zoo for instance, although there's definitely some builds/ situations against/of Zoo where you'd rather have Damnation in hand. However, I think in most cases Anger is slightly better vs them. I'd go 50/50 1 Damnation main 1 AoTG Sideboard if I were you.
Ideally, I think you want like 2 AotG's in the side vs. Pod but i've noticed that they consistenly strip it out of your hand before its backbreaking against them. This is done with effects like Sin Collector and Entomber Exarch I find that their gameplan is usually to pod into those creatures, so because of this I had the idea of replacing that 2nd AotG with Olivia Voldaren because I think they have similar effects. Where AotG swept the board, Olivia dodges both of the previously mentioned cards and a ton of their ways to remove creatures such as Abrupt Decay and Shriekmaw and whats more they're forced to deal with her as her effect is both consistently oppressive to their plan and grows her as a threat to beat their face in with. I'm wondering what you guys think about the Olivia > 2nd copy of AotG plan. Do you guys think it works or is there an even better card to hose pod with?
Also I do have another question on the topic of pod. Do you guys like siding in Izzet Staticaster against pod? It has similar applications as olivia and helps with that gameplan, it kills a lot of their dorks and helps ping persist critters once you terminate them, such as kitchen finks, so idk I think it could go either way.
Cruel Control
Niv-Mizzet EDH
Cruel Tezz
3x Cryptic Command
2x Dig Through Time
1x Dismember
3x Electrolyze
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Mana Leak
2x Remand
1x Shadow of Doubt
2x Spell Snare
3x Terminate
Sorceries:
1 Damnation
2 Cruel Ultimatum
Creatures:
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 vendilion clique
1 Batterskull
Lands:
2x Island
1x Mountain
1x Swamp
2x Steam Vents
2x Watery Grave
1x Blood Crypt
4x Polluted Delta
3x Scalding Tarn
4x Creeping Tar Pit
2x Sulfur Falls
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Tectonic Edge
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Anger of the Gods
1x Combust
1x Counterflux
1x Countersquall
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Dispel
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Molten Rain
1x Olivia Voldaren
1x Rakdos Charm
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Shatterstorm
1x Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
2x Thoughtseize
*Edit: I edited the deck a tiny bit to tighten up a few things that I believed to make the deck play smoother.
so this is what i've got atm. Lately i've been thinking about only one thing really, considering shaving 1 cruel ultimatum for something like a dig through time or mystical teachings. The reason for this is that i'd love another dig through time since the card quality it gives you can just find you the 1 cruel ultimatum or batterskull you need to win the game which is what the second copy of CU was doing also. So it slows you down just a little in terms of winning if you replace the 2nd Cruel Ultimatum, but on the other hand it is usually much more versatile earlier in the game than cruel ultimatum would be and it can always get you super close if not outright find you the CU or Batterskull you need, + a card.
However the only problem is can this deck afford THAT much GY fuel (also i'm worried that much commitment to the GY would hurt us heavily vs ppl running relic of progenitus). The answer is probably not with 4 snaps, so I was thinking a one of mystical teachings might not be the worst since it can find you dig through time (acting like the 3rd dig) without having to tax your graveyard so heavily. Or we could just play 2 Cruel Ultimatum which isn't the worst either, still not sure.
Sidenote, I wish Counterspell was legal in modern... the combination of that and chaining dig through times sounds SO unstoppable in the late-game lol.