What is your reason for not running Urborg? It should be in there it gives your edges the ability to tap for something useful and lets your fetches tap for mana when you have nothing else to search for or are to low to crack them
urborg is something people might want to run, im not sure where though since the mana is fairly tight but i suppose its not a bad idea. I really want to find a slot in the mana to run one its just that you also really wanna run a basic swamp too lol. I guess its works rlly well for those who want tec edge to be able to cast ultimatum though so its probably definitely worth it unless im missing something.
Urborg isn't a bad idea I'm going to change the base I am testing to -1 tec edge +1 urborg for stability, after testing last night 2 edge's is probably where we want to be 3 was too much,
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"Unfortunately, all of my test animals have died or escaped, so i shall be the final subject. I feel no fear. This is a momentous night."
--Laboratory notes, final entry
rlly curious why you don't run 4 tar pits. After playing a lot with tar pit personally i feel like i could never fathom cutting even 1. Its just been so good for me. I've not tried lavaclaw reaches much but thats a land that hasnt been that great for me. Wonder what everyone else thinks about the number of manlands in the deck + what types to use.
rlly curious why you don't run 4 tar pits. After playing a lot with tar pit personally i feel like i could never fathom cutting even 1. Its just been so good for me. I've not tried lavaclaw reaches much but thats a land that hasnt been that great for me. Wonder what everyone else thinks about the number of manlands in the deck + what types to use.
3 ebt lands max is a personal preference of mine, and i really like the diversification that lavaclaw gives me. Also, my meta does not have many creature based decks, so unblockable is not as needed. That bein said, I run mainboard seizes over damnation, but this is the list i intend to take to my next gp.
hm have you thought of including ghost quarter, or even the dangerous tec edge =p? seems like otherwise u might have a lot harder matchup against manlands and gavony townships, vs scapeshift, and tron. well basically against every deck aside from very few like zoo.
even if youre not feeling brave enough to try tec edge, 1-3 ghost quarters is fairly easy to run in ur list, at least from what i can tell.
I could write a very long disupute why colorless lands are horrible in this deck but seems no one is willing to listen. Even though you're a control deck, this is NOT UWR kind of control deck. UWR is glorified tempo/counterburn and is low on curve really, until REALLY late game. This is hard control. Each land you lose from the board hurts you really bad and is NOT worth losing just to kill an utility land. If those bother you so much, run Spreading Seas or Molten Rain or Sowing Salt off the board. There are so many options that don't make you hurt your manabase more than it's worth.
please don't compare seas/ molten rain with tec edge as a fine replacement. its really not, we are trying to keep mana open for counterspells why would you want to tap out during main phases with those spells. youre also exaggerating the cost of running 1-2 tec edges. Also its a choice to activate you don't have to use it, you make it seem like its mandatory to kill every utility land with tec edge, but its not. If the situation comes up where you see its "worth" it then use it, otherwise don't its that simple. Theres plenty of situations where it IS worth it. Im not sure what decks u guys have been facing lately but if you don't have these kinds of lands you're going to lose games vs manlands and tron lands that you just didn't need to lose to.
I could write a very long disupute why colorless lands are horrible in this deck but seems no one is willing to listen. Even though you're a control deck, this is NOT UWR kind of control deck. UWR is glorified tempo/counterburn and is low on curve really, until REALLY late game. This is hard control. Each land you lose from the board hurts you really bad and is NOT worth losing just to kill an utility land. If those bother you so much, run Spreading Seas or Molten Rain or Sowing Salt off the board. There are so many options that don't make you hurt your manabase more than it's worth.
WUR Control without the Restoration Angels/Vendilion Cliques is not a glorified tempo/counterburn deck.
Hello, all, I played cruel control back when this thread was at half the replies it was now, I don't know if anyone knows if Badd Business still says hi much on this thread but he came up with a great approach to the deck taking the approach of a trinket mage package, allowing us to make use of thirst for knowledge as our card draw of choice and with allowing us to play signets to ramp into ultimatum and also allow us to play tectonic edge in our mana base. Just an idea, since I haven't played in the modern metagame for over the year and I'm unsure how the deck would play in the current meta. Here's an example decklist of the deck use to look like that Badd Business used.
Hello, all, I played cruel control back when this thread was at half the replies it was now, I don't know if anyone knows if Badd Business still says hi much on this thread but he came up with a great approach to the deck taking the approach of a trinket mage package, allowing us to make use of thirst for knowledge as our card draw of choice and with allowing us to play signets to ramp into ultimatum and also allow us to play tectonic edge in our mana base. Just an idea, since I haven't played in the modern metagame for over the year and I'm unsure how the deck would play in the current meta. Here's an example decklist of the deck use to look like that Badd Business used.
You only have 3 artifacts that Trinket Mage can fetch, doesn't seem worth it unless you can find other mana rocks that cost 1.
First off, it's 4, he can search for Darksteel citadel, but the idea behind trinket mage is you had 3 cards with each one generally rather strong against a different deck as long as you knew the matchup so it sort of provided you a mini sideboard worth of options before you actually got to game 2, while also allow you to kill off ones that were dead to Thirst for Knowledge. Then you also got to have Elixir from the board against aggro decks games 2 and 3. He just acts like as a body that can help stall against aggro, be a win con against control and combo, and act as copies 2 and 3 of any important 1 mana artifact that you feel is important for the match up
darksteel citadel is there as a back up to just help out incase you need a land drop guarantee, the primary use of trinket mage is as a hate card tutor. And we have signets in this deck to change colourless mana into coloured mana.
I Actually like most of the card choices maindeck, the only thing that looks shaky is the mana base. Since you have a high emphasis on early game interaction, I recommend that you find a way to make them more reliable on t1, 14 untapped color sources of each is what you want to aim for if you want 90% reliability.
please don't compare seas/ molten rain with tec edge as a fine replacement. its really not, we are trying to keep mana open for counterspells why would you want to tap out during main phases with those spells. youre also exaggerating the cost of running 1-2 tec edges. Also its a choice to activate you don't have to use it, you make it seem like its mandatory to kill every utility land with tec edge, but its not. If the situation comes up where you see its "worth" it then use it, otherwise don't its that simple. Theres plenty of situations where it IS worth it. Im not sure what decks u guys have been facing lately but if you don't have these kinds of lands you're going to lose games vs manlands and tron lands that you just didn't need to lose to.
Yeah it's nice to bring up scenarios where tec edge is great, I can just as easily come up with scenarios where magma spray would be a better card than lightning bolt, it's not a reason to cut bolt though. So yeah, tec edge can be more ideal if you're out of cards and facing a raging ravine or a colonnade, but where we're coming from is that it's more important to be able to play CC on t4 consistently or t1 bolt ect. In other words it's a more likely scenario to lose due to sitting on cards you can't even cast rather than no being able to kill off an enemy manland. Sitting on a cruel ultimatum you can't cast on t7 or a damnation on t4 sucks, it sucks more than not being able to kill a manland for free. Maybe it's just personal experience, but everytime I try tec edge I find myself wishing it were a color producing land more often than not
elMochaLatte, in hindsight i would change a mountain with a tar pir and mybe add sulfur falls, but I'm not really great at building mana bases. Have any reccomendations?
i guess i understand the colored mana thing, only thing i'd say is that ghost quarter almost always has the ability to tap for the color you need (albeit at a drastically high price the turn after, but if u really want that t7 ultimatum, i guess thats still worth it). Cryptic command is interesting though, I forget the number of blue you need in a deck to reliably cast it on t4 but if a manabase could be arranged that was stable enough to cast cryptic etc. by t4 etc. im sure a mixture of mana exists that you can play with the numbers to reliably cast those key spells in the deck and still fit a very small amount of colorless lands in the deck. Urborg sounds like it would definitely help out the ultimatum/colorless land concern though. The accurate math on its impact seems too hard to calculate though for me.
elMochaLatte, in hindsight i would change a mountain with a tar pir and mybe add sulfur falls, but I'm not really great at building mana bases. Have any reccomendations?
Explains in depth (including other variables like having opening hands without any lands and mulligans) with the math to back it up. I can try to explain the math to you if you're skeptical on it too if you want. Keep it mind that you don't really have to aim for this 90% goal, control decks can cut a little bit off the required sources mark if a mana intensive spell is good enough (ie dissolve over psychic strike in standard) or if they can reliably scry or cantrip before the turn they want to play x spell (like supreme verdict or jace).
So basically I have the rule of thumb like this, based off the math/charting from the article (still taking mulligans into consideration)
Have 14 untapped sources of mana for whatever spell you want to play on turn 1. This means that sulfur falls won't count for a t1 spell snare or a t1 lightning bolt, but steam vents or any fetch-land will.
18 black for a reliable damnation
22 blue sources for a reliable cryptic command
For the t1 plays I would always stay at 14 with no compromise, for anything on t3 and beyond I feel that it's viable to deviate (only by a little bit, try and assume that you won't be cantripping anyways) from the charts since we have access to a lot of cheap library manipulation, effectively upping the consistency by a turn or two.
So I would cut reflecting pool (too dependent and shaky), the checklands, and 1 sunken ruins. I would also up the land count to 26
Even without any tec edges or ghost quarters (with a full boat of fetchlands) I still fall short of 22 blue for CC (which I kind of make up for with sunken ruins and cheap cantripping), it should become apparent as to why I'm against tec edge and GQ in the first place.
i guess i understand the colored mana thing, only thing i'd say is that ghost quarter almost always has the ability to tap for the color you need (albeit at a drastically high price the turn after, but if u really want that t7 ultimatum, i guess thats still worth it). Cryptic command is interesting though, I forget the number of blue you need in a deck to reliably cast it on t4 but if a manabase could be arranged that was stable enough to cast cryptic etc. by t4 etc. im sure a mixture of mana exists that you can play with the numbers to reliably cast those key spells in the deck and still fit a very small amount of colorless lands in the deck. Urborg sounds like it would definitely help out the ultimatum/colorless land concern though. The accurate math on its impact seems too hard to calculate though for me.
I feel that if you really want to run a colorless land, then GQ is the way to go since the land loss won't really matter if you're casting an ultimatum. It's also ideal for the tron match-up since using a tec edge after they form their tron (the only time you can) won't really do anything anyways
--Laboratory notes, final entry
1 Blood Crypt
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
2 Sunken Ruins
1 Dreadship Reef
2 Reflecting Pool
2 Watery Grave
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Mountain
2 Steam Vents
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
2 Swamp
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Augur of Bolas
// Spells
1 Batterskull
2 Damnation
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Spell Snare
3 Mana Leak
3 Terminate
2 Electrolyze
2 Forbidden Alchemy
3 Cryptic Command
2 Cruel Ultimatum
2 Think Twice
1 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Anger of the Gods
3 Thoughtseize
2 Rakdos Charm
1 Batterskull
2 Counterflux
1 Extirpate
2 Mystical Teachings
1 Far/Away
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
3 ebt lands max is a personal preference of mine, and i really like the diversification that lavaclaw gives me. Also, my meta does not have many creature based decks, so unblockable is not as needed. That bein said, I run mainboard seizes over damnation, but this is the list i intend to take to my next gp.
even if youre not feeling brave enough to try tec edge, 1-3 ghost quarters is fairly easy to run in ur list, at least from what i can tell.
Yup
WUR Control without the Restoration Angels/Vendilion Cliques is not a glorified tempo/counterburn deck.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
3x Serum Visions
2x Damnation
4x Thirst for Knowledge
3x Izzet Charm
2x Cryptic Command
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Terminate
artifacts
2x Dimir Signet
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Pithing Needle
1x Izzet Signet
creatures
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x Wurmcoil Engine
2x Trinket Mage
1x Batterskull
4x Creeping Tar Pit
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Watery Grave
2x Steam Vents
1x Graven Cairns
1x Blood Crypt
2x Cascade Bluffs
1x Swamp
2x Island
1x Mountain
2x Lavaclaw Reaches
1x Dreadship Reef
1x Sulfur Falls
1x Darksteel Citadel
3x Slaughter Games
2x Spellskite
1x Elixir of Immortality
2x Sowing Salt
1x Damnation
1x Rakdos Charm
1x Countersquall
1x Remand
2x Thoughtseize
1x Deathmark
You only have 3 artifacts that Trinket Mage can fetch, doesn't seem worth it unless you can find other mana rocks that cost 1.
I Actually like most of the card choices maindeck, the only thing that looks shaky is the mana base. Since you have a high emphasis on early game interaction, I recommend that you find a way to make them more reliable on t1, 14 untapped color sources of each is what you want to aim for if you want 90% reliability.
Yeah it's nice to bring up scenarios where tec edge is great, I can just as easily come up with scenarios where magma spray would be a better card than lightning bolt, it's not a reason to cut bolt though. So yeah, tec edge can be more ideal if you're out of cards and facing a raging ravine or a colonnade, but where we're coming from is that it's more important to be able to play CC on t4 consistently or t1 bolt ect. In other words it's a more likely scenario to lose due to sitting on cards you can't even cast rather than no being able to kill off an enemy manland. Sitting on a cruel ultimatum you can't cast on t7 or a damnation on t4 sucks, it sucks more than not being able to kill a manland for free. Maybe it's just personal experience, but everytime I try tec edge I find myself wishing it were a color producing land more often than not
Check out this article http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-how-many-colored-mana-sources-do-you-need-to-consistently-cast-your-spells/
Explains in depth (including other variables like having opening hands without any lands and mulligans) with the math to back it up. I can try to explain the math to you if you're skeptical on it too if you want. Keep it mind that you don't really have to aim for this 90% goal, control decks can cut a little bit off the required sources mark if a mana intensive spell is good enough (ie dissolve over psychic strike in standard) or if they can reliably scry or cantrip before the turn they want to play x spell (like supreme verdict or jace).
So basically I have the rule of thumb like this, based off the math/charting from the article (still taking mulligans into consideration)
Have 14 untapped sources of mana for whatever spell you want to play on turn 1. This means that sulfur falls won't count for a t1 spell snare or a t1 lightning bolt, but steam vents or any fetch-land will.
18 black for a reliable damnation
22 blue sources for a reliable cryptic command
For the t1 plays I would always stay at 14 with no compromise, for anything on t3 and beyond I feel that it's viable to deviate (only by a little bit, try and assume that you won't be cantripping anyways) from the charts since we have access to a lot of cheap library manipulation, effectively upping the consistency by a turn or two.
So I would cut reflecting pool (too dependent and shaky), the checklands, and 1 sunken ruins. I would also up the land count to 26
Here's what I'm on for reference
3 Snapcaster Mage
Instants (19)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Think Twice
3 Mana Leak
3 Terminate
3 Electrolyze
1 Forbidden Alchemy
4 Cryptic Command
Sorcery (9)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Damnation
3 Cruel Ultimatum
4 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
4 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
1 Watery Grave
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Swamp
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Thoughtseize
3 Countersquall
3 Ratchet Bomb
4 Spreading Seas
1 Damnation
Even without any tec edges or ghost quarters (with a full boat of fetchlands) I still fall short of 22 blue for CC (which I kind of make up for with sunken ruins and cheap cantripping), it should become apparent as to why I'm against tec edge and GQ in the first place.
I feel that if you really want to run a colorless land, then GQ is the way to go since the land loss won't really matter if you're casting an ultimatum. It's also ideal for the tron match-up since using a tec edge after they form their tron (the only time you can) won't really do anything anyways