guys lets discuss the ideal fetchland setup now that polluted delta will be legal.(the impact of this i think is really huge for so many reasons, not to mention how many times have u wanted to fetch for blood crypt with ur misty rainforest, now ull never have that problem :)! ). Personally I believe that the ideal would have us playing 4 polluted deltas since they allow us to play around blood moon the best by fetching blue and black, obviously we don't need red.( yay we can finally fetch black mana! whoohoooo) . That leaves us with our secondary fetchland which i believe is clearly scalding tarn, as much as i love bloodstained mire's art im not sure about us playing any copies of it. so probably 2-3 scalding tarns is our ideal. with that being said as others have said i think this now allows us to play 1-2 tec edges and i wouldn't be surprised if it also lets us play 1 ghost quarter as well, so 3 land destruction lands total max. This is HUGE for the deck since we can now go not only on the mana denial plan offensively but also certain matchups become a lot more favorable. Pod's gavony townships for instance become a lot less scary. This is just fantastic news for us, if i missed anything anyone please let me know (and yay Polluted Delta!! :)!!!!).
edit: not to mention scapeshift becomes a lot more favorable matchup with us having access to 2 tecs. the power of tec edge is real guys :).
4x Delta and 4x Tarn should be the starting point, similar to what is used in UWR. If you run Ultimatum, then you want 1 Ghost Quarter minimum with a total of 2-3 land destruction cards. What we run for the rest of our 26 lands is going to be heavily dependent on your color requirements and testing. For example, you could have 12 black/red spells turn 1, blue spells and terminate turn 2, and electrolyze/blightning/liliana turn 3. Given the variety of colors, you would most likely require a couple of bloodstained mires in addition to the 4x delta and 4x tarn.
it sounds good, but given traditionally the uwr deck runs 6 fetches( they are limited to this number due to the life loss, running more being too high a cost), are we sure we can do a lot more than that given we have less lifegain than them for the most part? this is mostly the reason i thought 4 delta 2-3 tarn was closer to ideal.
I will def be picking up the pieces for this now that Onslaught fetches are being reprinted should be pretty awesome always wanted to be able to play Cruel Ultimatum in something
it sounds good, but given traditionally the uwr deck runs 6 fetches( they are limited to this number due to the life loss, running more being too high a cost), are we sure we can do a lot more than that given we have less lifegain than them for the most part? this is mostly the reason i thought 4 delta 2-3 tarn was closer to ideal.
I always thought that UWR ran 8 fetches (4 tarn, 4 mesa)....
We still have plenty of life gain, they don't run that many helixes... It's just cruel vs sphinx's rev, which I think we win out on....
it sounds good, but given traditionally the uwr deck runs 6 fetches( they are limited to this number due to the life loss, running more being too high a cost), are we sure we can do a lot more than that given we have less lifegain than them for the most part? this is mostly the reason i thought 4 delta 2-3 tarn was closer to ideal.
I always thought that UWR ran 8 fetches (4 tarn, 4 mesa)....
We still have plenty of life gain, they don't run that many helixes... It's just cruel vs sphinx's rev, which I think we win out on....
As a UWR player I run 4 tarn 3 mesa but with the new fetches the most common split will be 4 tarn 2 mesa and 2 strand most likely moving to 8
[quote
I always thought that UWR ran 8 fetches (4 tarn, 4 mesa)....
We still have plenty of life gain, they don't run that many helixes... It's just cruel vs sphinx's rev, which I think we win out on....
As a UWR player I run 4 tarn 3 mesa but with the new fetches the most common split will be 4 tarn 2 mesa and 2 strand most likely moving to 8[/quote]
Our primary source of lifegain is Batterskull, so we don't have that much. With that being said, Jund runs Bob, 8+ fetches, and has minimal life issues.
For UWR, I'd think that the equivalent of what I suggested for us would be best. The ability to fetch up basic island helps alot with with anti blood moon shenanigans.
As a UWR player I run 4 tarn 3 mesa but with the new fetches the most common split will be 4 tarn 2 mesa and 2 strand most likely moving to 8
Batterskull isn't even MD in most UWR decks I would say that Sphinx's revelation is the primary life-gain source, but I would agree that life isn't really to much of a problem especially with helix as well in UWR even though we generally only run 2
jund does have multiple sources of lifegain to reconcile their life loss though, Scavenging ooze and courser really do help with that many fetches + bob. We don't have almost any lifegain though aside from batterskull and ultimatum (way later in the game). I think going up to a full 8 fetchlands in our deck is inviting trouble against the faster matchups like zoo and burn. I really wouldn't recommend it, especially since our fixing is fine at 7 fetches or so anyways. Im really not convinced we actually need that many to have our manabase work fine.
I always thought that UWR ran 8 fetches (4 tarn, 4 mesa)....
We still have plenty of life gain, they don't run that many helixes... It's just cruel vs sphinx's rev, which I think we win out on....
I think the general consensus on their manabase is 4 scaldings and 3 arid mesas, not 4-4. What i'm saying is i think theres a good reason for them not playing the 4th arid mesa. From what i've heard its the loss of life being a concern, i guess i may have heard that wrong.
I think that the ideal fetches you run should be based on what your t1 plays are. If you're running 4 IOK and 4 Bolt then 4 blootstained mire is going to be ideal. If it's Bolt and spell snare then you're gonna want the set of scalding tarns along side the Deltas. In the end it shouldn't really make a huge difference
I'm all for the 8 fetches philosophy. With enough basics to complement them you end up taking less life that you otherwise would with shocks or from getting your face beat in due to not having a consistent mana base.
You need 22 of your sources to produce blue to hit CC 90% of the time on t4 if I'm not mistaken. A sunken ruins or two should help up the consistency or compensation in general. I still don't think we can afford tectonic edge, it's not worth it really. Cruel ultimatum is all colored mana and sacrificing our own mana base isn't where we want to be
All rejoice with the return of fetches!!!! While this deck probably benefits the most from the return of fetches, it is important to keep in mind that the majority of other decks also get a bump up for this (possible new archetypes include Esper Fae, BUG midrange, Grixis Twin, and possibly a 3 color Delver) . Also, I'm still not a fan of Cruel Ultimatum as a finisher. But I am a huge fan of Sarkhan! This guy is the ultimate 5 drop! that is in an incredible finisher that just wreaks havoc on everything! The only thing that kills it is Path, which is not that common right now. I love the shake up that Khans is already creating!!! Is there anyone else in favor of at least trying Sarkhan 3.0 over Cruel Ultimatum?
All rejoice with the return of fetches!!!! While this deck probably benefits the most from the return of fetches, it is important to keep in mind that the majority of other decks also get a bump up for this (possible new archetypes include Esper Fae, BUG midrange, Grixis Twin, and possibly a 3 color Delver) . Also, I'm still not a fan of Cruel Ultimatum as a finisher. But I am a huge fan of Sarkhan! This guy is the ultimate 5 drop! that is in an incredible finisher that just wreaks havoc on everything! The only thing that kills it is Path, which is not that common right now. I love the shake up that Khans is already creating!!! Is there anyone else in favor of at least trying Sarkhan 3.0 over Cruel Ultimatum?
No. If I want a five drop that I'm tapping out for I want it to either be Batterskull or Keranos, not Sarkhan. Sarkhan would only be good if we're already ahead, and is useless if we don't have complete control of the board as we can't do anything with it.
the reason why tec edge is worth it is in the worst case you can use the edges on ur opponent as a mana denial and its not that unlikely that you could rob them of an entire color or double red for instance against splinter twin. i just think that as much as tec edge can set you back, you can always set your opponent back with it comparably.
with the fetchland reprints I'm am going to switch back to grixis, thinkg 4 scalding 3 polluted delta, running 4 creeping tarpits, 2-3 tec edges is the right place to start.
as for Sarkhan maybe as a 1 of but not sure how good it really is
edit: If some are you are wondering why the specific count on basics its for casting Cruel Ultimatum regardless of mana denial, whether its dodging tec edges ghost quarters or blood moons
"Unfortunately, all of my test animals have died or escaped, so i shall be the final subject. I feel no fear. This is a momentous night."
--Laboratory notes, final entry
I am new to the cruel control area but what about a one of nicol bolas I mean he is so slow but it would be really epic late game to drop him and ult idk if he has ever been tested here or if he would even be any good but he's just so awesome and flavorful that I wanted to get thoughts.
If you want to run Tec edge, you might as well cut cruel ultimatum since it's never going to be cast with it in. If you cut ultimatum then you might as well be playing uwr. Tec edge will hurt cruel control more than help it. What's even more ridiculous is the assumption that polluted delta will enable Tec edge
3 tec edges is really greedy, 2 is probably the max id say. also the reason you can run both cruel and tec edge is because you're not using the edges to cast the ultimatums, you'll eventually draw more lands to cast it usually you only need to draw 1 more land if youre running 2 edges which is worth what you're getting for ur investment.( my point is its not a big a problem as ur making it out to be). The primary use of ur edges is mana denial and casting things that arent called cruel ultimatum.
I do agree though that too many tec edges and it does get a lot dicier, so thats why im suggesting only a max of 2. If you're that worried you could run just 1 tec edge and 2 ghost quarter but for control decks like ours the deck does get a lot weaker without land destroying lands such as tec edges and ghost quarters. Id say 3 total effects like this is very necessary. (btw for those who don't know some people like ghost quarters in the cruel control deck because it lets u kill collonades but also if you have 7 mana and cruel ultimatum, and one of the 7 is ghost quarter, you can kill ur own land after tapping it and search your library for the basic ur missing, tap that and successfully cast cruel ultimatum. So i guess that still works.
Having said that mochalatte i think theres pretty much no reason to not at least run One tec edge. the reason people are saying polluted delta lets u play tec edge btw is that the mana gets a lot better with it and therefore running colorless lands like tec edge arent as punishing to the manabase.
Edge is instant speed land destruction so you cant just side in molten rains and expect them to be just as strong. they also make ur mana leaks better. also when u need to kill a colonnade and ur molten rain gets countered, youll be wishing you had an uncounterable way to kill their colonnade.
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4x Delta and 4x Tarn should be the starting point, similar to what is used in UWR. If you run Ultimatum, then you want 1 Ghost Quarter minimum with a total of 2-3 land destruction cards. What we run for the rest of our 26 lands is going to be heavily dependent on your color requirements and testing. For example, you could have 12 black/red spells turn 1, blue spells and terminate turn 2, and electrolyze/blightning/liliana turn 3. Given the variety of colors, you would most likely require a couple of bloodstained mires in addition to the 4x delta and 4x tarn.
I always thought that UWR ran 8 fetches (4 tarn, 4 mesa)....
We still have plenty of life gain, they don't run that many helixes... It's just cruel vs sphinx's rev, which I think we win out on....
As a UWR player I run 4 tarn 3 mesa but with the new fetches the most common split will be 4 tarn 2 mesa and 2 strand most likely moving to 8
As a UWR player I run 4 tarn 3 mesa but with the new fetches the most common split will be 4 tarn 2 mesa and 2 strand most likely moving to 8[/quote]
Our primary source of lifegain is Batterskull, so we don't have that much. With that being said, Jund runs Bob, 8+ fetches, and has minimal life issues.
For UWR, I'd think that the equivalent of what I suggested for us would be best. The ability to fetch up basic island helps alot with with anti blood moon shenanigans.
Batterskull isn't even MD in most UWR decks I would say that Sphinx's revelation is the primary life-gain source, but I would agree that life isn't really to much of a problem especially with helix as well in UWR even though we generally only run 2
I think the general consensus on their manabase is 4 scaldings and 3 arid mesas, not 4-4. What i'm saying is i think theres a good reason for them not playing the 4th arid mesa. From what i've heard its the loss of life being a concern, i guess i may have heard that wrong.
I'm all for the 8 fetches philosophy. With enough basics to complement them you end up taking less life that you otherwise would with shocks or from getting your face beat in due to not having a consistent mana base.
UWRUWR MidrangeUWR
BUGSultai MidrangeBUG
BUGRTraverse MidrangeBUGR (currently brewing)
No. If I want a five drop that I'm tapping out for I want it to either be Batterskull or Keranos, not Sarkhan. Sarkhan would only be good if we're already ahead, and is useless if we don't have complete control of the board as we can't do anything with it.
something like this
3x polluted delta
4x creeping tarpit
2x island
2x mountain
3x swamp
2x steam vent
2x watery grave
1x blood crypt
3x tectonic edge
seems stable
as for Sarkhan maybe as a 1 of but not sure how good it really is
edit: If some are you are wondering why the specific count on basics its for casting Cruel Ultimatum regardless of mana denial, whether its dodging tec edges ghost quarters or blood moons
--Laboratory notes, final entry
I do agree though that too many tec edges and it does get a lot dicier, so thats why im suggesting only a max of 2. If you're that worried you could run just 1 tec edge and 2 ghost quarter but for control decks like ours the deck does get a lot weaker without land destroying lands such as tec edges and ghost quarters. Id say 3 total effects like this is very necessary. (btw for those who don't know some people like ghost quarters in the cruel control deck because it lets u kill collonades but also if you have 7 mana and cruel ultimatum, and one of the 7 is ghost quarter, you can kill ur own land after tapping it and search your library for the basic ur missing, tap that and successfully cast cruel ultimatum. So i guess that still works.
Having said that mochalatte i think theres pretty much no reason to not at least run One tec edge. the reason people are saying polluted delta lets u play tec edge btw is that the mana gets a lot better with it and therefore running colorless lands like tec edge arent as punishing to the manabase.
Edge is instant speed land destruction so you cant just side in molten rains and expect them to be just as strong. they also make ur mana leaks better. also when u need to kill a colonnade and ur molten rain gets countered, youll be wishing you had an uncounterable way to kill their colonnade.