The strategy is pretty simple: I control the match and I close it with the creature/lands or with the Batterskull.
Sometimes it works very well, but other times it sucks.
Do you have any suggestions?
Repsoted from another thread. Someone help this guy out!
I can comment on the mana. You have 21 blue, 18 black and 13 red sources, which means that you are short on red. A turn 1 bolt or spray is going to be hard and a turn 3 Anger of the Gods is out of the question.
Other than that, I put question-marks on main-boarding Magma Spray and Pyroclasm. Unless your meta is filled with small creatures, they probably belong in the SB. We've had discussions regarding Think Twice before, so I am not going to say anything about that card. In the side-board, Illness in the Ranks seems a bit narrow. I personally lean towards Curse of Death's Hold, but there is also a 4 CMC symmetric enchantment that some prefer.
Finally, I previously played Mystical Teachings, but to me it seems a bit slow against faster decks - so I have avoided it.
Then we have Illness in the Ranks, which I put in my side only against token decks or twin decks or stuff like that, because it's very cheap (the one you suggested me is too expensive in my opinion and I don't wanna risk to lose my mana open.
About Mystical Teachings, I thought it was very important because it give me the opportunity to search for the card that is better in that specific moment (if you notice, I have a lot of different solutions instead of use 4x copies), so I'll think about leaving it or removing from my deck.
I dont know if you want illness against twin decks since a lot of times they side out their combo against control decks and wont go for the infinity tokens on you. Its good against token decks, however, you play mystical teachings so im curious why you don't just play izzet staticaster against token decks instead. Its also decent against pod and of course you can tutor for it with mystical teachings, Also its good against a lot of other decks not just tokens, ive also sided it in against infect and it really did a great job in that matchup :).
that being said personally mystical teachings is a little slow for my taste, I might just run one mystical teachings if i were you to make the deck a little less clunky since you wont always get the luxury of taking a turn off to teachings. I like a one of teachings just fine though.
Great idea vs blood moon: Chromatic Lantern. Fixes us up + ramp, and since they tap out/baith counter to cast blood moon, its getting in 100% on turn 3. That card has been the most problematic for me, I'll try that for sure!
Anyone having trouble vs TRON match ups?
I feel like they do everything, manaewise, faster than us. Sowing salt isn't fast enough imo....
tron is a very bad match up since they have way better inevitability while we have very few ways to interact with their threats, meanwhile we r bad at clocking our opponent. after they assemble their tron pieces it's like a tower defence with wave after wave of wurmcoil/karn/sundering titan/emrakul
Indeed. I put 4 spreading seas in the side to fight it, I'm not sure it really helps, since our game is so long, they keep drawing more tron pieces.
Yesterday I played the deck at a local event and it performed well vs melira pod and infect. I lost to kiki-pod (Tight g1 and 2 but lost both) and burn (1-2, triple molten rain).
unusual cards I tried; Chromatic Lantern - Performed really well as I was afraid of getting mana screwed with getting edged. Every game I got it, it either fixed me good or ramped me. Never dead. It neuters blood moon, which was a big problem when I was testing on cockatrice, and it helps recover vs Land destruction. Aethersnipe - really good as you can surprise pseudo terminus. Way better than the meek one, better suited colors abd instant speed. Gets rid of Wurmcoil Engine too. Leyline of Anticipation - there's nothing as satisfying as casting cruel eot or after draw. IoK after draw is amazing, batterskull eot. That card is nuts, seriously try it. Even if you don't start with it, it's worth hard casting it as it will give you huge tempo advantage, so it is a must answer card. Reroute - put 1 side, has potential but it's really specific. It did 2-1 once vs burn, killing goblin guide on lavamancer activation. It's really good against the actifact that charges and burn that I can't recall the name. Rise // Fall Hymn to tourach in modern that's not dead on a cardless opponent - you can reload on snaps too. I run 1 since it's sorcery speed, but with leyline it shown to be really really good (Fall on opponent's draw step ). Exhaustion That one is becoming one of my favorite. It's narrower than cryptic, but man, you can cast it on turn 4 when they tap out after remanding a spell. Then snap it back. Thats 2 turns right there. Time walk in modern. Every game I cast it it gave me huge advantage, or just gives you the win if you have a beater out.
Edit: oh and Pack Rat too. I thought vs Land destruction it could be a good win con, since they pack out removal and your short on mana with dead cards in hand. It didn't shine but I'll continue testing it.
i just pack 3 sowing salts and bounce their tron pieces and slow them down with remand/cryptic
^ this strategy has proven to be the gameplan that i like as well, on their upkeep i bounce one of their non-redundant tron lands this obviously only works effectively if they only have 2 of the 3 kinds in play at the time. thoughtseize is really decent as well.
Good afternoon everyone,
I'm a long time lurker on this thread and a long time Cruel Control player. I reviewed the last few pages and like how people are exploring new options for this deck. Unfortunately Cruel control is not a very powerful archetype right now. One option I would like to at least bring to the table is removing Cruel Ultimatum all together. Yes, I know it's the name sake card w/ a massive effect once resolved that blows out the opponent, but recently I think it is what is holding us back. Ultimatum forces the deck to have to use all colored lands. Lands likeTectonic Edge and Desolate Lighthouse can't even be considered. The other problem is hitting our land drops. WE MUST HIT EVERY LAND DROP (just about) to win a game. It can become a very fragile strategy, It also forces us to run 26+ to make it work consistently. I think we need to explore the idea of removing it. Below is the current list that I'm playing. 25 lands, very functional off of 5 lands for the entire game. a real grind 'em out control deck. I think it has the potential to be better than Cruel control. I also love isochron scepter and this deck is slightly adjusted around that card to make it work.
In the limited playing testing I've done I've found a Cruel-less build to work out better. Is this something anyone else has considered?
PS- I don't want any nay-sayers saying this post shouldn't be in this thread b/c it doesn't have a Cruel Ultimatum in the list... This is an exploratory discussion about a card's inclusion in the deck
Well, you know what?
By play tstong a bit, I noticed that the first thing that they will try to destroy is our lands too on second game. I tend to remove the cruel too on second game. We need another win condition. I mean, even UWR control added kiki to combo out of nowhere. Maye Hive Mind? Since we can play slaughter Pact and Pact of negation it could be an idea, along with cards like, just throwing it in, Exhaustion?
We need to win faster, Cruel Ultimatum works on first game 50% of the time, but it can't be our only win con... I mean, even Aetherling seems faster...
About the lands, I'm thinking about running more Leyline of Anticipation and more Chromatic Lanterns... I just don't know what to cut...
Well, you know what?
By play tstong a bit, I noticed that the first thing that they will try to destroy is our lands too on second game. I tend to remove the cruel too on second game. We need another win condition. I mean, even UWR control added kiki to combo out of nowhere. Maye Hive Mind? Since we can play slaughter Pact and Pact of negation it could be an idea, along with cards like, just throwing it in, Exhaustion?
We need to win faster, Cruel Ultimatum works on first game 50% of the time, but it can't be our only win con... I mean, even Aetherling seems faster...
About the lands, I'm thinking about running more Leyline of Anticipation and more Chromatic Lanterns... I just don't know what to cut...
Well, you know what?
By play tstong a bit, I noticed that the first thing that they will try to destroy is our lands too on second game. I tend to remove the cruel too on second game. We need another win condition. I mean, even UWR control added kiki to combo out of nowhere. Maye Hive Mind? Since we can play slaughter Pact and Pact of negation it could be an idea, along with cards like, just throwing it in, Exhaustion?
We need to win faster, Cruel Ultimatum works on first game 50% of the time, but it can't be our only win con... I mean, even Aetherling seems faster...
About the lands, I'm thinking about running more Leyline of Anticipation and more Chromatic Lanterns... I just don't know what to cut...
Say we're looking for alternate game-enders. If Ultimatum is out, Dark Confidant becomes an option. And Bob and Snappy = happy Falkenrath Aristocrat! Could this be the finisher you're looking for? What do you think ?
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MODERN Blue Lantern, UBx Tezzerator. OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
Well, Falkenrath loves tokens. We play lots of spells. How about Young Pyromancer? We play 4 Remand.
Plenty of draw already. And Cryptic Command still hurts with bob.
Blood Artist to make up for life loss and alternate win condition?
Were almost getting toward Grixis Aristocrats... Blasphemous Act?
I don't know, just throwing in some ideas. I like the Falkenrath idea.
Young Pyromancer is a good idea, and I think I recall seeing a 3-1 or 4-0 daily list with some. The issue I see with them is if they are the only 4 creatures you have other than Snapcaster Mages they just become easy targets for removal. Opponents have a clear choice on which creature to remove, they don't have to decide between the Pyromancer or a Delver for instance. Yes, they may have a couple of tokens to deal with too, but they should always remove the source first, and unless you can counter the removal, they're going to kill it asap.
I once tried Vampire Nighthawks in a build and really liked them. If I were going to ditch Cruel Ultimatums for something more aggressive and creature based, it would be Nighthawks. They fit the theme of the deck and can block and remove anything from the game. If you get to swing with it, you can offset some life loss.
if you want to take cruel ultimatum out or reduce the number of ultimatums, that doesnt seem like the worst idea, but you have to play something that is equally or better at being a game-ending/ stabilizing spell (otherwise i think youre talking more about changing the strategy of the deck to less control more towards midrange). I'm not sure a lot of the suggested things cut it really for those purposes. biggest problem with isochron I can see off the bat is it can be destroyed/disrupted fairly easily. Its not a card i've played a lot with though so I don't know.
Isochron Sceptre screams, "Abrupt Decay me!" Two-for-one material that you use a whole turn setting up. Other players have already done the work for you and have found it to be a rough time in a Thoughtseize Abrupt Decay meta.
I don't particularly like Keranos, but I definitely think he has the most value in this archetype. He'll draw you a couple cards, help you burn your opponent out, and people don't really play functional ways to remove him. O-Ring and D-Sphere aren't played and Wear // Tear has the most cross-over appeal for this sort of thing (given that artifact and enchant removal are often bundled). He doesn't have a ton of initial impact value, but that's a obvious downside, so if you're a control player who can work around that, I don't see him being terrible.
Repsoted from another thread. Someone help this guy out!
Other than that, I put question-marks on main-boarding Magma Spray and Pyroclasm. Unless your meta is filled with small creatures, they probably belong in the SB. We've had discussions regarding Think Twice before, so I am not going to say anything about that card. In the side-board, Illness in the Ranks seems a bit narrow. I personally lean towards Curse of Death's Hold, but there is also a 4 CMC symmetric enchantment that some prefer.
Finally, I previously played Mystical Teachings, but to me it seems a bit slow against faster decks - so I have avoided it.
I played this deck briefly and ran Ral Zarek as a one of. He didn't super impress me, though I did get 3 extra turns against mono-U tron....
i think ral would be fine if the thing he tapped stayed tapped :). then i could be a fairly big fan.
I dont know if you want illness against twin decks since a lot of times they side out their combo against control decks and wont go for the infinity tokens on you. Its good against token decks, however, you play mystical teachings so im curious why you don't just play izzet staticaster against token decks instead. Its also decent against pod and of course you can tutor for it with mystical teachings, Also its good against a lot of other decks not just tokens, ive also sided it in against infect and it really did a great job in that matchup :).
that being said personally mystical teachings is a little slow for my taste, I might just run one mystical teachings if i were you to make the deck a little less clunky since you wont always get the luxury of taking a turn off to teachings. I like a one of teachings just fine though.
With regards to token, twin and aggro decks, there's nothing more satisfying than Rakdos Charm, Rakdos Charm, Snapcaster Mage, Rakdos Charm. Just saying..
I feel like they do everything, manaewise, faster than us. Sowing salt isn't fast enough imo....
Great idea vs blood moon: Chromatic Lantern. Fixes us up + ramp, and since they tap out/baith counter to cast blood moon, its getting in 100% on turn 3. That card has been the most problematic for me, I'll try that for sure!
tron is a very bad match up since they have way better inevitability while we have very few ways to interact with their threats, meanwhile we r bad at clocking our opponent. after they assemble their tron pieces it's like a tower defence with wave after wave of wurmcoil/karn/sundering titan/emrakul
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | URPhoenixUR | UWMiraclesUW |GBRJundGBR | UBFaeriesUB | UBWAd NauseumUBW |GBRWBlueless ShadowGBRW |
MTGA
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | UTempoU
Yesterday I played the deck at a local event and it performed well vs melira pod and infect. I lost to kiki-pod (Tight g1 and 2 but lost both) and burn (1-2, triple molten rain).
unusual cards I tried;
Chromatic Lantern - Performed really well as I was afraid of getting mana screwed with getting edged. Every game I got it, it either fixed me good or ramped me. Never dead. It neuters blood moon, which was a big problem when I was testing on cockatrice, and it helps recover vs Land destruction.
Aethersnipe - really good as you can surprise pseudo terminus. Way better than the meek one, better suited colors abd instant speed. Gets rid of Wurmcoil Engine too.
Leyline of Anticipation - there's nothing as satisfying as casting cruel eot or after draw. IoK after draw is amazing, batterskull eot. That card is nuts, seriously try it. Even if you don't start with it, it's worth hard casting it as it will give you huge tempo advantage, so it is a must answer card.
Reroute - put 1 side, has potential but it's really specific. It did 2-1 once vs burn, killing goblin guide on lavamancer activation. It's really good against the actifact that charges and burn that I can't recall the name.
Rise // Fall Hymn to tourach in modern that's not dead on a cardless opponent - you can reload on snaps too. I run 1 since it's sorcery speed, but with leyline it shown to be really really good (Fall on opponent's draw step
Exhaustion That one is becoming one of my favorite. It's narrower than cryptic, but man, you can cast it on turn 4 when they tap out after remanding a spell. Then snap it back. Thats 2 turns right there. Time walk in modern. Every game I cast it it gave me huge advantage, or just gives you the win if you have a beater out.
Edit: oh and Pack Rat too. I thought vs Land destruction it could be a good win con, since they pack out removal and your short on mana with dead cards in hand. It didn't shine but I'll continue testing it.
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | URPhoenixUR | UWMiraclesUW |GBRJundGBR | UBFaeriesUB | UBWAd NauseumUBW |GBRWBlueless ShadowGBRW |
MTGA
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | UTempoU
^ this strategy has proven to be the gameplan that i like as well, on their upkeep i bounce one of their non-redundant tron lands this obviously only works effectively if they only have 2 of the 3 kinds in play at the time. thoughtseize is really decent as well.
I'm a long time lurker on this thread and a long time Cruel Control player. I reviewed the last few pages and like how people are exploring new options for this deck. Unfortunately Cruel control is not a very powerful archetype right now. One option I would like to at least bring to the table is removing Cruel Ultimatum all together. Yes, I know it's the name sake card w/ a massive effect once resolved that blows out the opponent, but recently I think it is what is holding us back. Ultimatum forces the deck to have to use all colored lands. Lands likeTectonic Edge and Desolate Lighthouse can't even be considered. The other problem is hitting our land drops. WE MUST HIT EVERY LAND DROP (just about) to win a game. It can become a very fragile strategy, It also forces us to run 26+ to make it work consistently. I think we need to explore the idea of removing it. Below is the current list that I'm playing. 25 lands, very functional off of 5 lands for the entire game. a real grind 'em out control deck. I think it has the potential to be better than Cruel control. I also love isochron scepter and this deck is slightly adjusted around that card to make it work.
Grixis Control:
2 blood crypt
2 creeping tar pit
1 dragon skull summit
2 island
1 lavaclaw reaches
3 marsh flats
1 mountain
4 scalding tarn
2 steam vents
1 sulfur falls
1 swamp
3 tectonic edge
2 watery grave
2 batterskull
1 Keranos, god of storms
3 inquisition of Kozilek
1 thoughtseize
4 lightning bolt
2 isochron scepter
2 izzet charm
3 mana leak
3 remand
1 shadow of doubt
3 terminate
2 anger of the gods
2 electrolyze
3 cryptic command
In the limited playing testing I've done I've found a Cruel-less build to work out better. Is this something anyone else has considered?
PS- I don't want any nay-sayers saying this post shouldn't be in this thread b/c it doesn't have a Cruel Ultimatum in the list... This is an exploratory discussion about a card's inclusion in the deck
UWRUWR MidrangeUWR
BUGSultai MidrangeBUG
BUGRTraverse MidrangeBUGR (currently brewing)
By play tstong a bit, I noticed that the first thing that they will try to destroy is our lands too on second game. I tend to remove the cruel too on second game. We need another win condition. I mean, even UWR control added kiki to combo out of nowhere. Maye Hive Mind? Since we can play slaughter Pact and Pact of negation it could be an idea, along with cards like, just throwing it in, Exhaustion?
We need to win faster, Cruel Ultimatum works on first game 50% of the time, but it can't be our only win con... I mean, even Aetherling seems faster...
About the lands, I'm thinking about running more Leyline of Anticipation and more Chromatic Lanterns... I just don't know what to cut...
You could try Keranos.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Say we're looking for alternate game-enders. If Ultimatum is out, Dark Confidant becomes an option. And Bob and Snappy = happy Falkenrath Aristocrat! Could this be the finisher you're looking for? What do you think ?
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
Plenty of draw already. And Cryptic Command still hurts with bob.
Blood Artist to make up for life loss and alternate win condition?
Were almost getting toward Grixis Aristocrats... Blasphemous Act?
I don't know, just throwing in some ideas. I like the Falkenrath idea.
I once tried Vampire Nighthawks in a build and really liked them. If I were going to ditch Cruel Ultimatums for something more aggressive and creature based, it would be Nighthawks. They fit the theme of the deck and can block and remove anything from the game. If you get to swing with it, you can offset some life loss.
I don't particularly like Keranos, but I definitely think he has the most value in this archetype. He'll draw you a couple cards, help you burn your opponent out, and people don't really play functional ways to remove him. O-Ring and D-Sphere aren't played and Wear // Tear has the most cross-over appeal for this sort of thing (given that artifact and enchant removal are often bundled). He doesn't have a ton of initial impact value, but that's a obvious downside, so if you're a control player who can work around that, I don't see him being terrible.