Night of Souls Betrayal is a VERY good hoser for the format right now. It's very strong against quite a few decks in the format if you can stick it (which should be easy if you play hand disruption + permission).
It's very strong against Affinity, Infect, Death and Taxes, Martyr / Soul Sisters, UR Delver, UB Faeries, Splinter Twin, and quite a few other random tier 3 decks that may get played in a local meta. It also makes pod a very fair matchup in your favor as it eliminates their ability to out-value you off pod, and will conveniently kill a large portion of their creatures simply upon resolution. I don't board it in against most zoo variants since it doesn't kill most of their creatures.
I would play 2 in most cruel control sideboards. I will say, it's likely better in the non-draw go variant with augur + hand disruption than the pure draw-go teachings variants.
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any thoughts on illness in the ranks? fixes our MU against twin and tokens, possibly junk too (hoses lingering souls), which i think is an interesting option.
the problem with tokens is that they are very resilient to sweepers, and they r a very bad MU for us, especially since most of them pack 6 targeted discards now. tokens is a consistent competitor in my meta and it feels like a free loss everytime i get matched against them.
How do people feel about a 1-of Hero's Downfall in Teachings builds as an answer to resolved Planeswalkers? I just hate having to tap out to attack a Planeswalkers with a Pit, then bolt it, just to let my opponent resolve something else the next turn.
@ Rogon: Thanks for the mana base tips.. It is rather hard to pick the right lands and the right numbers for it. 90% of the time I hardly had any issues with red sources.. unless someone franticly focussing on hating my red away.
I hope this will atleast make the 90% being not color screwed go up towards the 99%.
So, +1 blue, -3 black and +3 red, and you are at 21 blue, 15 black and 15 red, so yes - you are improving your chances of not being color-screwed quite a bit. You are still a little short on both Damnation and Sowing Salt, and still short on Anger of the Gods, while blue is definitely covered. One way to improve red and black would be to add virtual mana-sources, i.e. cheap can-trips, such as Serum Visions and Shadow of Doubt. 4 cheap can-trips count as one mana source (or you can think of it as reducing the source requirements for each of your colors by 1).
I was wondering... Enchantments can be a big issues for Grixis. We play just those colors that would rather see enchantments be removed from the whole TCG. Blood Moon, Leyline of the Void, Rest in Peace, Choke, Seismic Assault or any enchantment Boggles has to offer comes to mind. Would Kiora's Dismissal be a decent enough card to play in the SB? I always have this 'meh' feeling about putting cards in the SB with the "I might get caught off-guard" idea. It mostly is just a card to use with Teachings, but you might have to go to atleast 2 Mystical Teachings in the MB.
Another thought.. What do we feel about Silence the Believers? To me it feels decent at best. For 4 mana I rather want a boardwipe or something that makes sure a creature will die.. something like Sudden Death. For 7 mana I want it to be a game winning card.
I would love to see how how Kiora's Dismissal works out -- it could be a wonderful addition. I've typically used Annul since it also is good against affinity. I'm not sure Silence the Believers makes the cut, as even Terminate isn't played by many Grixis lists... Having said that, I played in the pre-release and cast it for 7 mana and it was quite the blow-out. But Limited is quite a different story from Modern.
On Hero's Downfall, it's a great card against any "mid-range" or slow deck. The reason it's not being used though is that most problematic decks in Modern aren't mid-range nor slow... How did the planes-walker resolve? Sounds to me that the best answer lies in counters.
I haven't tried relic, but the way I see it is if I survive till turn 5 then the game is heavily in my favor, so it's only a matter of time until I land a cruel. I tend to prefer the draw go style of the deck, so tapping out early when instead I could counter something key is dangerous. At the very least bluffing that you have a counter when you don't can cause them to change their game plan enough to survive.
md repeal and cryptic command are good answers to leyline. Try replacing a think twice, remand, or a shadow of doubt. Just gotta re-work the game plan into bouncing it before an ultimatum, or with another counter in hand. Leyline can be a pain but it does water down the opposition
On coalition relic, if you're trying to ramp into an ultimatum, you're pretty much just playing a bad version of tron while watering down your ability to disrupt your opponent in the early game
This is what I think I'm taking to the Minneapolis GP next weekend. It'll be my first tournament since I was 15 (19 years ago). Seeing that it's 5 miles from my house it would be silly not to go experience it.
Until last week I was playing it with 2 Forbidden Alchemy and only 3 Electrolyze's and 2 Terminates. I bumped each one of those up and removed Alchemy in favor of more consistency in the main board. The only reason I'm removing the Alchemy is because I have 13 cards that provide draw. 2 Shadow of Doubt's main board in this deck is a must. Its directly applicable in 90% of your match ups. At the very least its a cheap draw, and helps with game 1 against pod. It also really messes up things like Primeval Titan if you can't counter it (e.g. Genesis Wave). I used to run 4 Mana Leaks, but dropped one b/c there were quite a few times where I just couldn't counter something b/c they had too much mana open. Remand is basically my 4th Leak now.
As for the sideboard...
A friend recommended Annul in the sideboard to combat Twin. Its a lot easier to keep 1 mana up than 2, and it also helps with token decks (Intangible Virtue) and Affinity. Its also an answer to Blood Moon. Spellskite is for burn match ups, and walls against zoo/aggro decks. I advocated Tribute to Hungar earlier in this thread, but swapped it out for Far // Away. I really like the life gain option in some match ups, but Far // Away has more reach. It handles things like Geists very well, and is just more flexible all around. I don't like Thoughsieze main board, it just sucks too much life which I think this deck can't afford to do. IoK has been a champ and hits so many cards. Duress has been a great sideboard option too. Applicable against a lot of decks. A single Hero's Downfall incase I run into an 8-Rack or Tron deck and need to dispose of a planeswalker. Yeah, Dreadbore is cheaper, but I like instants more than sorceries
This is what I think I'm taking to the Minneapolis GP next weekend. It'll be my first tournament since I was 15 (19 years ago). Seeing that it's 5 miles from my house it would be silly not to go experience it.
Until last week I was playing it with 2 Forbidden Alchemy and only 3 Electrolyze's and 2 Terminates. I bumped each one of those up and removed Alchemy in favor of more consistency in the main board. The only reason I'm removing the Alchemy is because I have 13 cards that provide draw. 2 Shadow of Doubt's main board in this deck is a must. Its directly applicable in 90% of your match ups. At the very least its a cheap draw, and helps with game 1 against pod. It also really messes up things like Primeval Titan if you can't counter it (e.g. Genesis Wave). I used to run 4 Mana Leaks, but dropped one b/c there were quite a few times where I just couldn't counter something b/c they had too much mana open. Remand is basically my 4th Leak now.
As for the sideboard...
A friend recommended Annul in the sideboard to combat Twin. Its a lot easier to keep 1 mana up than 2, and it also helps with token decks (Intangible Virtue) and Affinity. Its also an answer to Blood Moon. Spellskite is for burn match ups, and walls against zoo/aggro decks. I advocated Tribute to Hungar earlier in this thread, but swapped it out for Far // Away. I really like the life gain option in some match ups, but Far // Away has more reach. It handles things like Geists very well, and is just more flexible all around. I don't like Thoughsieze main board, it just sucks too much life which I think this deck can't afford to do. IoK has been a champ and hits so many cards. Duress has been a great sideboard option too. Applicable against a lot of decks. A single Hero's Downfall incase I run into an 8-Rack or Tron deck and need to dispose of a planeswalker. Yeah, Dreadbore is cheaper, but I like instants more than sorceries
This is what I think I'm taking to the Minneapolis GP next weekend. It'll be my first tournament since I was 15 (19 years ago). Seeing that it's 5 miles from my house it would be silly not to go experience it.
Until last week I was playing it with 2 Forbidden Alchemy and only 3 Electrolyze's and 2 Terminates. I bumped each one of those up and removed Alchemy in favor of more consistency in the main board. The only reason I'm removing the Alchemy is because I have 13 cards that provide draw. 2 Shadow of Doubt's main board in this deck is a must. Its directly applicable in 90% of your match ups. At the very least its a cheap draw, and helps with game 1 against pod. It also really messes up things like Primeval Titan if you can't counter it (e.g. Genesis Wave). I used to run 4 Mana Leaks, but dropped one b/c there were quite a few times where I just couldn't counter something b/c they had too much mana open. Remand is basically my 4th Leak now.
As for the sideboard...
A friend recommended Annul in the sideboard to combat Twin. Its a lot easier to keep 1 mana up than 2, and it also helps with token decks (Intangible Virtue) and Affinity. Its also an answer to Blood Moon. Spellskite is for burn match ups, and walls against zoo/aggro decks. I advocated Tribute to Hungar earlier in this thread, but swapped it out for Far // Away. I really like the life gain option in some match ups, but Far // Away has more reach. It handles things like Geists very well, and is just more flexible all around. I don't like Thoughsieze main board, it just sucks too much life which I think this deck can't afford to do. IoK has been a champ and hits so many cards. Duress has been a great sideboard option too. Applicable against a lot of decks. A single Hero's Downfall incase I run into an 8-Rack or Tron deck and need to dispose of a planeswalker. Yeah, Dreadbore is cheaper, but I like instants more than sorceries
I'd say to drop the 1 Remand which is not that relevant as a 1-off. Slaughter pact is amazingly relevant, especially if you are running anything at sourcery speed because you can tap out against combo and still be fine. I'd also say that 3 Inquisitions are fine but you do need another sweeper mainboard like another damantion or an Anger of the Gods (which is very relevant nowadays).
On the SB I would say that deathmarks are very good. Threads of disloyalty is also a card that you need in there if you have it, it has been performing so well that I am thinking of upping the number to 2. I really dislike Annul as a choice, yeah I can see the value against blood moon, but if you expect you should probably keep a counter up anyway and go for a draw-go playstyle. 2 Far//Away and 1 Hero's downfall (although I get that they serve a different purpose) are yoo heavy removal on the SB, I think you need more versatility. Get another Counterflux or a dispel, get engineered explosives, shatterstorm, showing salt, there are plenty of choices in order to not have a linear but a versatile and toolkit sideboard. Good luck!
The one thing those decks have in common is they have very little if any hand disruption that most cruel decks seem to run. It's 90% blue/red control. I haven't tried my deck without IoK yet because it just works so freakin well for me. Even if you whiff on removing a card you still get valuable info. Obviously those decks are working without it, just hard to imagine it myself.
So, I've seen Elixir of Immortality on a few lists throughout this whole thread but there hasn't been any real discussion on it. I have used Elixir in every control deck since it was released and never regretted the decision (even squeezing it into the 61 slot in some occasions). I have never been sad to draw it, play it, or crack it. I have not yet used it in Cruel Control but maybe it's worth it.
At the very least it nets us 5 life (which can be game-changing) and at the very most, we reshuffle all of the counters, burn, and draw spells that we didn't snap back, and we reshuffle all of our dead snapcasters, as well as netting us 5 life. I think it's overall cost of 3 is negligible enough that mid to late game spending the mana will be inconsequential. And sometimes it will just save us from imminent death (if only for a turn).
What do you guys think?
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Modern: R RDW R UBW Esper Control UBW
EDH: BG Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord BG
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It's very strong against Affinity, Infect, Death and Taxes, Martyr / Soul Sisters, UR Delver, UB Faeries, Splinter Twin, and quite a few other random tier 3 decks that may get played in a local meta. It also makes pod a very fair matchup in your favor as it eliminates their ability to out-value you off pod, and will conveniently kill a large portion of their creatures simply upon resolution. I don't board it in against most zoo variants since it doesn't kill most of their creatures.
I would play 2 in most cruel control sideboards. I will say, it's likely better in the non-draw go variant with augur + hand disruption than the pure draw-go teachings variants.
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | URPhoenixUR | UWMiraclesUW |GBRJundGBR | UBFaeriesUB | UBWAd NauseumUBW |GBRWBlueless ShadowGBRW |
MTGA
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | UTempoU
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | URPhoenixUR | UWMiraclesUW |GBRJundGBR | UBFaeriesUB | UBWAd NauseumUBW |GBRWBlueless ShadowGBRW |
MTGA
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | UTempoU
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Batterskull
1 Counterflux
2 Remand
2 Spell Snare
3 Mana Leak
4 Cryptic Command
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
4 Think Twice
2 Terminate
2 Cruel Ultimatum
26 Land
This is my current list. Running it to pretty good success.
Lands:
1 Swamp
3 Watery Grave
1 Molten Slagheap
3 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Dreadship Reef
4 Island
1 Mountain
3 Sulfur Falls
2 Blood Crypt
4 Steam Vents
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Desolate Lighthouse
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Mana Leak
2 Terminate
4 Think Twice
2 Cryptic Command
1 Dissipate
2 Cruel Ultimatum
2 Mystical Teachings
2 Consume the Meek
3 Spell Snare
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Electrolyze
1 Devour Flesh
1 Dispel
4 Thoughtseize
2 Smother
1 Magma Spray
1 Ætherling
1 Far // Away
2 Counterflux
1 Rakdos Charm
2 Stone Rain
I really like it so far. The only matchups I've been having a lot of trouble with are U or UW Tron and Living End.
So, +1 blue, -3 black and +3 red, and you are at 21 blue, 15 black and 15 red, so yes - you are improving your chances of not being color-screwed quite a bit. You are still a little short on both Damnation and Sowing Salt, and still short on Anger of the Gods, while blue is definitely covered. One way to improve red and black would be to add virtual mana-sources, i.e. cheap can-trips, such as Serum Visions and Shadow of Doubt. 4 cheap can-trips count as one mana source (or you can think of it as reducing the source requirements for each of your colors by 1).
I really like Night of Souls' Betrayal, having 2 in my sideboard.
I would love to see how how Kiora's Dismissal works out -- it could be a wonderful addition. I've typically used Annul since it also is good against affinity. I'm not sure Silence the Believers makes the cut, as even Terminate isn't played by many Grixis lists... Having said that, I played in the pre-release and cast it for 7 mana and it was quite the blow-out. But Limited is quite a different story from Modern.
On Hero's Downfall, it's a great card against any "mid-range" or slow deck. The reason it's not being used though is that most problematic decks in Modern aren't mid-range nor slow... How did the planes-walker resolve? Sounds to me that the best answer lies in counters.
On coalition relic, if you're trying to ramp into an ultimatum, you're pretty much just playing a bad version of tron while watering down your ability to disrupt your opponent in the early game
1 Batterskull
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
Instants
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Electrolyze
3 Terminate
3 Cryptic Command
3 Mana Leak
1 Remand
3 Spell Snare
2 Shadow of Doubt
2 Think Twice
Sorcery
1 Damnation
2 Cruel Ultimatum
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Blood Crypt
3 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Dragonskull Summit
1 Dreadship Reef
1 Drowned Catacomb
3 Island
1 Molten Slagheap
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
2 Watery Grave
2 Annul
2 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
2 Rakdos Charm
2 Spellskite
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Counterflux
2 Far // Away
1 Hero's Downfall
Until last week I was playing it with 2 Forbidden Alchemy and only 3 Electrolyze's and 2 Terminates. I bumped each one of those up and removed Alchemy in favor of more consistency in the main board. The only reason I'm removing the Alchemy is because I have 13 cards that provide draw. 2 Shadow of Doubt's main board in this deck is a must. Its directly applicable in 90% of your match ups. At the very least its a cheap draw, and helps with game 1 against pod. It also really messes up things like Primeval Titan if you can't counter it (e.g. Genesis Wave). I used to run 4 Mana Leaks, but dropped one b/c there were quite a few times where I just couldn't counter something b/c they had too much mana open. Remand is basically my 4th Leak now.
As for the sideboard...
A friend recommended Annul in the sideboard to combat Twin. Its a lot easier to keep 1 mana up than 2, and it also helps with token decks (Intangible Virtue) and Affinity. Its also an answer to Blood Moon. Spellskite is for burn match ups, and walls against zoo/aggro decks. I advocated Tribute to Hungar earlier in this thread, but swapped it out for Far // Away. I really like the life gain option in some match ups, but Far // Away has more reach. It handles things like Geists very well, and is just more flexible all around. I don't like Thoughsieze main board, it just sucks too much life which I think this deck can't afford to do. IoK has been a champ and hits so many cards. Duress has been a great sideboard option too. Applicable against a lot of decks. A single Hero's Downfall incase I run into an 8-Rack or Tron deck and need to dispose of a planeswalker. Yeah, Dreadbore is cheaper, but I like instants more than sorceries
Thoughts?
I'd run Volcanic Fallout or Shatterstorm for Twin. They both almost completely kill it.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
2x Blood Crypt
2x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Dreadship Reef
3x Island
2x Lavaclaw Reaches
1x Mountain
2x Reflecting Pool
1x River of Tears
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Steam Vents
1x Sunken Ruins
1x Tectonic Edge
2x Watery Grave
3x Cryptic Command
3x Electrolyze
1x Forbidden Alchemy
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Mana Leak
2x Shadow of Doubt
1x Slaughter Pact
2x Spell Snare
2x Terminate
2x Think Twice
1x Jace Beleren
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Anger of the Gods
2x Cruel Ultimatum
2x Damnation
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Counterflux
2x Deathmark
2x Duress
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Izzet Staticaster
2x Rakdos Charm
2x Spellskite
1x Threads of Disloyalty
On the SB I would say that deathmarks are very good. Threads of disloyalty is also a card that you need in there if you have it, it has been performing so well that I am thinking of upping the number to 2. I really dislike Annul as a choice, yeah I can see the value against blood moon, but if you expect you should probably keep a counter up anyway and go for a draw-go playstyle. 2 Far//Away and 1 Hero's downfall (although I get that they serve a different purpose) are yoo heavy removal on the SB, I think you need more versatility. Get another Counterflux or a dispel, get engineered explosives, shatterstorm, showing salt, there are plenty of choices in order to not have a linear but a versatile and toolkit sideboard. Good luck!
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
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2 Consume the Meek
2 Cruel Ultimatum
4 Cryptic Command
4 Electrolyze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mana Leak
2 Shadow of Doubt
4 Spell Snare
2 Terminate
2 Think Twice
4 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Dreadship Reef
4 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
4 Sulfur Falls
2 Watery Grave
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Counterflux
1 Damnation
1 Dispel
1 Duress
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Magma Spray
1 Negate
1 Pyroclasm
1 Sowing Salt
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Terminate
1 Thoughtseize
1 Threads of Disloyalty
And also:
1 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Consume the Meek
2 Cruel Ultimatum
4 Cryptic Command
4 Electrolyze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mana Leak
2 Shadow of Doubt
3 Spell Snare
2 Terminate
2 Think Twice
4 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Dreadship Reef
1 Drowned Catacomb
4 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
2 Watery Grave
1 Aetherling
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Combust
1 Counterflux
1 Deathmark
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Molten Rain
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sowing Salt
4 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Wurmcoil Engine
Also, much prefer VFS' list. Will give it a try over the weekend at modern events.
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
At the very least it nets us 5 life (which can be game-changing) and at the very most, we reshuffle all of the counters, burn, and draw spells that we didn't snap back, and we reshuffle all of our dead snapcasters, as well as netting us 5 life. I think it's overall cost of 3 is negligible enough that mid to late game spending the mana will be inconsequential. And sometimes it will just save us from imminent death (if only for a turn).
What do you guys think?
GBW Nic-Fit GBW
UBRWG Dredge UBRWG
Modern:
R RDW R
UBW Esper Control UBW
EDH:
BG Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord BG