So I played 15 games against burn. Damn I knew that mathup was bad, but holy crap. I only won 4 games and 3 were due to batterskull. Once it resolved he didn't have a good out besides double bolting the token. Damn deck played a crapton of haste creatures as well.
UWR basically can't do much, every time they tap out for their manland (which costs 5 and is a lot), they're taking a huge risk of extending into an ultimatum. I can pick apart their hands with spot discard and play the tempo game with profitable eot snapcaster + burn spells. Have you ever played agains cruel control running spot discard? It makes the matchup close to one sided. UWR is easy because I don't have to overextend as much as they do, I have spot discard, and cruel ultimatum ruins them.
You seem to think just because someone is playing blue that they're always going to have a counterspell and the mana to cast it. Playing around countermagic, spot discard, and forcing them to tap out to deal with your tempo shouldn't be that foreign of a concept to you by now
Cruel Ultimatum > Revelation
IoK/Seize > Spellsnare by a landslide
Uwr has a marginally better mana base, it's not game-changing. The only difference is that my other fetchland (marsh flats) can't grab a Steam Vents, it can still grab a Blood Crypt or a Watery Grave. As much as I would love to have Polluted Delta, it's not that big of a loss not to have it.
Colonnade is only slightly better (against the meta as a whole), once again though, it's not that much better. The extra mana they have to invest in activating it goes a long way in how this match in particular would transpire. I play both once again, tar pit is only worse in the sense of blocking but the easier activation cost opens up more options. When taking everything into consideration, stats, activation cost, and abilities, tar pit is on par with colonnade in this specific MU.
You can theorize about how uwr beats grixis all day in this match-up but in the end it boils down to how many times you've played it. I've played it plenty of times and I can give you loads of reasons why grixis is favored, but until you get your ass handed to you 7 times out of every ten match-ups I will never convince you since everyone here somehow knows everything there is to know about magic. Just don't say I didn't warn you when you have to deal with getting your hand shredded apart by discard spells (I also know what your hand is, kind of a big deal) backed up by countermagic, tempo, and the backbreaking outcome of getting 10 for 1'd by an ultimatum. Just the threat of Ultimatum itself severely limits your options.
UWR is favorable
UW is straight up free
A resolved Geist can be pretty hard to deal with (Damnation or bust), but yea otherwise it's pretty good once you've had some practice. I won't lie though, the control mirrors get pretty intense and you need to play tight to win them.
I really like the list from the daily on the last page that 4-0'd. Is there any consideration to just maxing out on Anger as apposed to Damnation? It seems better to me at the moment and coming down a turn earlier is huge against Zoo (on the draw especially).
Why no Rakdos Charm in the side? it seems to cover multiple bases and could then free up some slots for other cards?
If you are really worried about burn you need spellskite and maybe even witchbane orb, which could help in a mirror or uwr.
I ran across Sorin's Thirst which does a decent lightning helix impersenation.
Sorin's thirst, or Pharika's cure for that matter are not even close to decent to lightning helix. Doesn't kill aggressive openings, only goblin guide, and you can't send it to the dome.
Imnot worriedd about it. I had those actually. Spellskite came in handy especially when he killed the batterskull token. I was just saying that I didn't think it was that far in their favor.
I really like the list from the daily on the last page that 4-0'd. Is there any consideration to just maxing out on Anger as apposed to Damnation? It seems better to me at the moment and coming down a turn earlier is huge against Zoo (on the draw especially).
Why no Rakdos Charm in the side? it seems to cover multiple bases and could then free up some slots for other cards?
I'm not a huge fan of rakdos charm actually, at least not in this deck. It's very versatile, but it's not really that great at anything that it does.
For artifact hate, I'd rather have shattering spree. For graveyard hate, it's really bad at dealing with persist creatures unlike relic, which can handle multiple persisters and replace itself when you dont need it. Against twin, it's only good if they go for the Deceiver Exarch route. You still die to 11 pestermites or 7 restoration angels without rakdos charm actually killing them. Most competent twin players are aware of Rakdos charm and play around it anyway. So yeah, it saves a slot or two in the board due to it's versatility, but it's not all that powerful of an effect, which is more or less what I want in here from the board.
Anger is good, but it's definitely a meta call, and in the deck I played, I had a hard time getting 2 red sometimes on turn 3 (although that can be fixed by changing around the mana.) I do feel it's better than damnation in the current meta however. It may be worthwhile just putting the damnations in the sideboard.
Imnot worriedd about it. I had those actually. Spellskite came in handy especially when he killed the batterskull token. I was just saying that I didn't think it was that far in their favor.
Yeah, burn is awful as is Mill. I actually think those two matchups are way worse than Tron. I don't think it's worth wasting sideboard slots on this matchup since you're going to be losing g1 all the time. They aren't all that popular of decks unless you're in a budget meta, so I'd rather just accept a random loss here or there against burn / mill than waste a ton of sideboard slots on trying to make the matchup 45/55. Remands cantripping you into Cryptic Commands is actually pretty strong against most tron variants, which can often buy you enough time to resolve a cruel ultimatum or two before they can get off an emrakul. Not saying tron is a good matchup, but you have more ability to interact with them, and your sideboard is way more relevant against them.
2. we have some very powerful but narrow answers: we very strong game against control and combo OR against control and aggro - but never against combo and aggro at the same time. we run cards that are great, but have a wide array of dead mathcups. examples: spell snare (huge amount of targets, but dead to living end, zoo, semidead against scapeshift, splinter twin), anger of the gods (great against merfolk, goblins, white wheenie hatebears, pod but dead against living end, big zoo, all of combo). inquisition of kozilek is a great card and now an even better meta call. but its dead against ALL of combo. thoughtseize is supreme, sure. but we lose even more life. other control decks have answers that are way more versatile (lightning helix, abrupt decay). idea: maybe instead of trimming our sideboards and decks to certain matchups, we should design a maindeck vs control and aggro and dedicate the whole sideboard to answers against combo/graveyard.
3. we have strong game against a variety of tier 1 decks (uwr, pod, preban jund, twin) but i noticed (playing in 3 german cities in the last months) that the more special, budget, homebrew or creative the meta gets, the less our deck has the right answers (some "rogue" matchups i tracked, all whole rounds of fnm or gpt: 8rack 2-1 in my favor, merfolk 0-3, goblins 0-2, burn 0-2, ub mill 3-0, esper enchanter 0-2, bloody soul sisters with norin the wary 0-2). okay, maybe its only me, but we cant answer everything reactively, so maybe its time to get more proactive and aggressive. how about trying to go more tapout control? ashiok, nightmare weaver, jace, architect of thought, jace beleren, blightning, death's shadow, delver of secrets all these are strong cards that we could use to put some more pressure on the board and force OUR plan upon the enemy. dont get me wrong, i dont want to change the tone of ye olde grixis cruel control. i just wonder whether we really benefit from instant speed as much as we think.
Playing pure tapout with stuff like Ashiok is a terrible idea unless you want to pay 3 mana at sorcery speed to cast a card that will likely do nothing, then subsequently die to a goyf swinging into. Same goes with delver - if you want to go that route, that's fine, but at that point you're playing a completely different deck based on entirely different principles. Being proactive definitely has some advantages, but it also has some drawbacks in that if your opponent can answer your proactive threats, you're then left even worse off than you were before.
People should remember that half the benefit of playing a control deck like this is that you gain tons of virtual card advantage (especially against midrange) since you invalidate so much of their removal. Stripping away your opponent's threats in hand then leaving them with a bunch of useless removal spells & lava spikes is part of what makes this deck somewhat competitive.
As for brew-ish decks, they can be problematic, although a lot of beating them is simply learning more about the random brew matchups and how to play against them. Simply knowing the ins and outs of the metagame (down to the tier 3-4 decks) will help a ton.
Finally, I'm not sure why you think IOK is dead vs. combo. Against twin, it preemptively deals with their protection, their exarchs/pestermites, and gives you tons of information about how to play. Against scapeshift, it deals with their acceleration or their protection (namely remands). Occasionally, it can hit a prismatic omen. Against Storm it's the best answer we have to early pyromancer ascension (especially on the draw). Even against living end, it's nice to get rid of their fulminator mages or strip out an instant speed violent outburst.
Ok, i need a quick reply. What are your thoughts on Jace, Architect of thought in grixis? i was thinking he might be a little strange as a 4 drop, would you tap out for it? i would like to have some opinions before i make a purchase.
Jumping in the bandwagon here, more demoralizing is a cruel ultimatum into a snapcaster cruel ultimatum with the snapcaster you just picked from your gy
Which in turn draws you into another cruel ultimatum
I actually mentioned this in my initial post on it: The list that 4-0'ed was actually the wrong list I loaded. It was supposed to have a 3-2 split of Snapcasters and Augurs. But overall, I love Augur of Bolas - it does everything this deck wants to do. It buys time, it digs for bullets, ultimatums and "gas", and even can keep opposing planeswalkers honest.
On think twice: I hate it. It's just a bad card, and I've said this multiple times. The main problem I have with it is that it's just way too inefficient, especially when you're playing against really aggressive decks in the format. The only time it's good is when you're in random control mirror matches, and even then, you're probably better off just playing serum visions or augur of bolas since the library manipulation is more valuable than just drawing an extra single card.
Repeal vs. Boomerang/Into the Roil/Cyclonic Rift: Just play repeal. It's a great card and is criminally underplayed in modern. The cantrip makes it great, and it also has some surprising use in grindy late game matches where you can repeal your own augurs or snapcasters to draw a card & get a repeated cantrip effect with the snap or augur. You can even flash in your snapcaster and target repeal in the graveyard to bounce itself and get a free draw back off it. Repeal is also one of the few decent cards in here at handling a resolved blood moon (assuming you've fetched a basic island already). The last thing repeal rocks at is dealing with tokens. It keeps cards like lingering souls or voice of resurgence honest since you can just repeal the token for 1 mana and cantrip off it.
Night of Soul's Betrayal vs. Curse of Death's Hold. Night is better than curse simply for mana reasons. Your own creatures getting -1-1 just isn't that big of a deal, and you really want to drop night on turn 4 if you can. I actually initially had night as a singleton, but I kept finding tons of matchups where I would resolve it, and pretty much win on the spot, so I upped the count to 2 since I wanted more.
See the below spoiler list for why I really like Night in this deck against a variety of decks in the metagame.
Against Faeries: If you resolve night vs. Faeries, it's not entirely gg since they can still bounce it with cryptic or beat you down with 1/1 mutavaults, but they'll be in an extremely rough spot.
Against Pod Variants: This will insta-kill their mana dorks. More importantly, it stops all their creatures from persisting, and also keeps voice of resurgence honest since the token will die after a wrath effect. Against kiki pod, it prevents death to exarch / kiki (although restoration angel still can kill). I've found it surprisingly good in these matchups - preventing persist is valuable enough on it's own to be worthwhile, and killing all their mana creatures along with nerfing a ton of their aggro game is worth it by itself.
Against Infect: If you resolve this, you win. That's all there really is to it.
Against Affinity: This is a near auto-win if you resolve it. Resolving night is a huge blow to them. The only creature they regularly play that comes into play with more than 1 toughness is etched champion. This also 100% shuts down their manland plan, and they usually aren't playing any way to answer it.
Against Splinter Twin: They pretty much can't win as long as this is in play. Not only does it shut off their combo plan, it also shuts down their tempo game since all their tempo creatures are x/1's.
Against Tokens: It kills everything unless they have an anthem in play. If they have an anthem out, it at least prevents a lot of damage, and you can always bounce the anthem with a repeal or cryptic.
Against soul sisters: Resolve this and you more or less win unless they already have more than 30 life. This is already a really strong matchup, but it never hurts.
Terminate vs. Dreadbore: Planeswalkers aren't all that relevant in modern right now. On the other hand, Splinter Twin is, so you 100% want to play terminate. Hero's downfall is worth the thought, but you really want to be as efficient as possible with zoo being a major player in the metagame.
Thanks for the input, im probably going to play some variation of your list at the GP in a week, though im certainly going to put at east 2 snapcasters in the main.
Having played a few games with the desk last night Augur was very impressive, the problem i had with this deck a few months ago was that it just sometimes ran out of gas when you didn't draw Ultimatum, Augur and Visions work so well in just ensuring that you always have something to do.
Re anger/Damnation i think its certainly a meta call, and for the GP i think im going to hedge on the side of 3 or even 4 angers main. UWR is going to be very popular and if people go the geist route being able to kill it on the draw (if they play it on curve) before they untap is huge, Damnation being a turn slower can let them untap with counter magic, even a remand once would be enough to make the game nearly unattainable. That and just the dirty things it does to POD decks which, as always will be huge makes it better i think.
What are everyone's opinions on Walkers for this deck? Personally i just want to ultimate Chandra into Cruel Ultimatum, but maybe im just greedy
Yeahhh that's probably greedy lol. I like Architect of thought as a two of, I love him. Any thoughts on shatterstorm vs shattering spree? I use it as a damnation but better vs affinity
As for your mana-base, I analyzed it a little and found a few problems. The deck you played has 20 blue, 17 black and 12 red sources, not counting can-trips as sources. However, counting mana-symbols, you have 29 U, 16 B and 17 R, so it looks like black is skewed too high. As a matter of fact, even up to CMC 4, you have 10 black symbols (4 IoKs, 2 Terminate and 2 Damnation) and 12 red symbols (4 bolts, 2 Terminate, 2 AotG, 2 Electrolyze). So, you should be about even on red and black mana. If you consider going towards more Anger of the Gods, then you need more red than black.
I don't think you want to reduce your blue sources, so what you need to do is to change UB sources into UR sources to get to (20, 14, 15), so 3 UB sources must become UR. Perhaps:
@Spellsnare: Oh, I know quite a bit about the requirements (nice table, by the way). I'm just pointing out the need for more read (1RR) than black (2BB).
With Modern mana-fixing, hitting those numbers should not be hard and my (20,14,15) split is fine for both Anger of the Gods and Damnation, since the deck in question runs 11 cheap can-trips (and aditional deck manipulation), resulting in an effective number of mana sources to +2 1/2 mana sources. For instance, my (20, 14, 15) split is actually more like (22, 16, 17), which is only 1 or 2 sources shy of the 90% limit. In other words dropping from 90% success rate (9 out of 10) to about 85% success rate (6 out of 7).
Exactly the mill match up is just simply depressing......
I think im going to go for my alternative sideboard plan i used when i won a GPT that was using 3 Spellheart Chimera in the side against the matchs where i needed to win faster (in case i lost game 1) or when casting cruel was not enough (random decks or GW hatebears)
I wonder why no one is running Forbidden Alchemy when is such an awesome card. Digging, Selection and sinergy with snap.
which cards would you side out in place of the chimeras tho...
Seriously? Spell heart Chimera? I seriously think my daft idea of ultimating Chandra into Cruel Ultimatum has a better chance of success than an X/Lightningboltable flyer ever has of winning a game
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Rakdos Charm also instantly kills Splinter Twin.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Why no Rakdos Charm in the side? it seems to cover multiple bases and could then free up some slots for other cards?
I ran across Sorin's Thirst which does a decent lightning helix impersenation.
Sorin's thirst, or Pharika's cure for that matter are not even close to decent to lightning helix. Doesn't kill aggressive openings, only goblin guide, and you can't send it to the dome.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
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I'm not a huge fan of rakdos charm actually, at least not in this deck. It's very versatile, but it's not really that great at anything that it does.
For artifact hate, I'd rather have shattering spree. For graveyard hate, it's really bad at dealing with persist creatures unlike relic, which can handle multiple persisters and replace itself when you dont need it. Against twin, it's only good if they go for the Deceiver Exarch route. You still die to 11 pestermites or 7 restoration angels without rakdos charm actually killing them. Most competent twin players are aware of Rakdos charm and play around it anyway. So yeah, it saves a slot or two in the board due to it's versatility, but it's not all that powerful of an effect, which is more or less what I want in here from the board.
Anger is good, but it's definitely a meta call, and in the deck I played, I had a hard time getting 2 red sometimes on turn 3 (although that can be fixed by changing around the mana.) I do feel it's better than damnation in the current meta however. It may be worthwhile just putting the damnations in the sideboard.
Yeah, burn is awful as is Mill. I actually think those two matchups are way worse than Tron. I don't think it's worth wasting sideboard slots on this matchup since you're going to be losing g1 all the time. They aren't all that popular of decks unless you're in a budget meta, so I'd rather just accept a random loss here or there against burn / mill than waste a ton of sideboard slots on trying to make the matchup 45/55. Remands cantripping you into Cryptic Commands is actually pretty strong against most tron variants, which can often buy you enough time to resolve a cruel ultimatum or two before they can get off an emrakul. Not saying tron is a good matchup, but you have more ability to interact with them, and your sideboard is way more relevant against them.
Playing pure tapout with stuff like Ashiok is a terrible idea unless you want to pay 3 mana at sorcery speed to cast a card that will likely do nothing, then subsequently die to a goyf swinging into. Same goes with delver - if you want to go that route, that's fine, but at that point you're playing a completely different deck based on entirely different principles. Being proactive definitely has some advantages, but it also has some drawbacks in that if your opponent can answer your proactive threats, you're then left even worse off than you were before.
People should remember that half the benefit of playing a control deck like this is that you gain tons of virtual card advantage (especially against midrange) since you invalidate so much of their removal. Stripping away your opponent's threats in hand then leaving them with a bunch of useless removal spells & lava spikes is part of what makes this deck somewhat competitive.
As for brew-ish decks, they can be problematic, although a lot of beating them is simply learning more about the random brew matchups and how to play against them. Simply knowing the ins and outs of the metagame (down to the tier 3-4 decks) will help a ton.
Finally, I'm not sure why you think IOK is dead vs. combo. Against twin, it preemptively deals with their protection, their exarchs/pestermites, and gives you tons of information about how to play. Against scapeshift, it deals with their acceleration or their protection (namely remands). Occasionally, it can hit a prismatic omen. Against Storm it's the best answer we have to early pyromancer ascension (especially on the draw). Even against living end, it's nice to get rid of their fulminator mages or strip out an instant speed violent outburst.
1. Why a full set of Augur of Bolas instead of a combination of Snapcaster Mage. Is it due to graveyard hate, or something else? Perhaps Night of Soul's Betrayal? Is it not counter to the Anger of the Gods plan? Would you consider Think Twice, or Night's Whisper or is the value of a blocker more important?
2. Terminate vs. Dreadbore, i.e. instant speed versus extra versatility. Is it because Liliana of the Veil sees little play right now?
3. Repeal vs. Boomerang/Into the Roil/Cyclonic Rift.
4. Night of Soul's Betrayal vs. Curse of Death's Hold.
I actually mentioned this in my initial post on it: The list that 4-0'ed was actually the wrong list I loaded. It was supposed to have a 3-2 split of Snapcasters and Augurs. But overall, I love Augur of Bolas - it does everything this deck wants to do. It buys time, it digs for bullets, ultimatums and "gas", and even can keep opposing planeswalkers honest.
On think twice: I hate it. It's just a bad card, and I've said this multiple times. The main problem I have with it is that it's just way too inefficient, especially when you're playing against really aggressive decks in the format. The only time it's good is when you're in random control mirror matches, and even then, you're probably better off just playing serum visions or augur of bolas since the library manipulation is more valuable than just drawing an extra single card.
Repeal vs. Boomerang/Into the Roil/Cyclonic Rift: Just play repeal. It's a great card and is criminally underplayed in modern. The cantrip makes it great, and it also has some surprising use in grindy late game matches where you can repeal your own augurs or snapcasters to draw a card & get a repeated cantrip effect with the snap or augur. You can even flash in your snapcaster and target repeal in the graveyard to bounce itself and get a free draw back off it. Repeal is also one of the few decent cards in here at handling a resolved blood moon (assuming you've fetched a basic island already). The last thing repeal rocks at is dealing with tokens. It keeps cards like lingering souls or voice of resurgence honest since you can just repeal the token for 1 mana and cantrip off it.
Night of Soul's Betrayal vs. Curse of Death's Hold. Night is better than curse simply for mana reasons. Your own creatures getting -1-1 just isn't that big of a deal, and you really want to drop night on turn 4 if you can. I actually initially had night as a singleton, but I kept finding tons of matchups where I would resolve it, and pretty much win on the spot, so I upped the count to 2 since I wanted more.
See the below spoiler list for why I really like Night in this deck against a variety of decks in the metagame.
Against Faeries: If you resolve night vs. Faeries, it's not entirely gg since they can still bounce it with cryptic or beat you down with 1/1 mutavaults, but they'll be in an extremely rough spot.
Against Pod Variants: This will insta-kill their mana dorks. More importantly, it stops all their creatures from persisting, and also keeps voice of resurgence honest since the token will die after a wrath effect. Against kiki pod, it prevents death to exarch / kiki (although restoration angel still can kill). I've found it surprisingly good in these matchups - preventing persist is valuable enough on it's own to be worthwhile, and killing all their mana creatures along with nerfing a ton of their aggro game is worth it by itself.
Against Infect: If you resolve this, you win. That's all there really is to it.
Against Affinity: This is a near auto-win if you resolve it. Resolving night is a huge blow to them. The only creature they regularly play that comes into play with more than 1 toughness is etched champion. This also 100% shuts down their manland plan, and they usually aren't playing any way to answer it.
Against Splinter Twin: They pretty much can't win as long as this is in play. Not only does it shut off their combo plan, it also shuts down their tempo game since all their tempo creatures are x/1's.
Against Tokens: It kills everything unless they have an anthem in play. If they have an anthem out, it at least prevents a lot of damage, and you can always bounce the anthem with a repeal or cryptic.
Against soul sisters: Resolve this and you more or less win unless they already have more than 30 life. This is already a really strong matchup, but it never hurts.
Terminate vs. Dreadbore: Planeswalkers aren't all that relevant in modern right now. On the other hand, Splinter Twin is, so you 100% want to play terminate. Hero's downfall is worth the thought, but you really want to be as efficient as possible with zoo being a major player in the metagame.
Having played a few games with the desk last night Augur was very impressive, the problem i had with this deck a few months ago was that it just sometimes ran out of gas when you didn't draw Ultimatum, Augur and Visions work so well in just ensuring that you always have something to do.
Re anger/Damnation i think its certainly a meta call, and for the GP i think im going to hedge on the side of 3 or even 4 angers main. UWR is going to be very popular and if people go the geist route being able to kill it on the draw (if they play it on curve) before they untap is huge, Damnation being a turn slower can let them untap with counter magic, even a remand once would be enough to make the game nearly unattainable. That and just the dirty things it does to POD decks which, as always will be huge makes it better i think.
What are everyone's opinions on Walkers for this deck? Personally i just want to ultimate Chandra into Cruel Ultimatum, but maybe im just greedy
As for your mana-base, I analyzed it a little and found a few problems. The deck you played has 20 blue, 17 black and 12 red sources, not counting can-trips as sources. However, counting mana-symbols, you have 29 U, 16 B and 17 R, so it looks like black is skewed too high. As a matter of fact, even up to CMC 4, you have 10 black symbols (4 IoKs, 2 Terminate and 2 Damnation) and 12 red symbols (4 bolts, 2 Terminate, 2 AotG, 2 Electrolyze). So, you should be about even on red and black mana. If you consider going towards more Anger of the Gods, then you need more red than black.
I don't think you want to reduce your blue sources, so what you need to do is to change UB sources into UR sources to get to (20, 14, 15), so 3 UB sources must become UR. Perhaps:
-1 Darkslick Shores
-1 Drowned Catacomb
-1 Watery Grave
+1 Cascade Bluffs
+1 Sulfur Falls
+1 Steam Vents
Edit: Source http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-how-many-colored-mana-sources-do-you-need-to-consistently-cast-your-spells/
With Modern mana-fixing, hitting those numbers should not be hard and my (20,14,15) split is fine for both Anger of the Gods and Damnation, since the deck in question runs 11 cheap can-trips (and aditional deck manipulation), resulting in an effective number of mana sources to +2 1/2 mana sources. For instance, my (20, 14, 15) split is actually more like (22, 16, 17), which is only 1 or 2 sources shy of the 90% limit. In other words dropping from 90% success rate (9 out of 10) to about 85% success rate (6 out of 7).
which cards would you side out in place of the chimeras tho...
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | URPhoenixUR | UWMiraclesUW |GBRJundGBR | UBFaeriesUB | UBWAd NauseumUBW |GBRWBlueless ShadowGBRW |
MTGA
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | UTempoU