Well, as mentioned, I loaded the wrong list, but it wasn't far off. This is what I intended to play. The list I ended up playing had no snapcasters, 2x anger of the gods maindeck, and 61 cards in it. The mana probably isn't ideal, but I didn't have the tickets to pick up cards like Cascade bluffs at the time although I didn't have any major problems with it.
Edit: xJosh reformat your list so it's readable and I'm sure people would be more likely to comment. Instant standout is ral. Why is he there? I like your thinking on slaughter pact.
Ultimatum is not stronger than Revelation. Not even close. They're close, but Revelation is just better.
And the correct answer to "Why not play UWR?" when it comes to control decks is "Because I don't want to." Each control deck - be it UWR, UW, Faeries, Cruel, or a tempo deck - has its own strengths, weaknesses, and match-up dynamics and there is no strictly superior option among them. Also there's the human factor: different kinds of control deck fit different people. Some people are better at the reactive UWR/Cruel style, some are better than the aggressive UW Midrange tap-out style. Each player has their own nurtured instincts and you'll always do better with the style that comes naturally to you than what is (only technically) the best deck.
Different strokes for different folks is a truism for the ages.
Also, it should be noted that UWR being "the best control deck" was a symptom of the format rather than brute strength - although the deck is obviously incredibly strong. Its Lightning Bolts made it better against Deathrite Shaman than Azorius and its life gain options worked better than Cruel. But now Deathrite is gone and Cruel Control is starting to figure itself out. What's more, the format is balancing out so that UWR's Lightning Bolts aren't the strict best option because every deck is Jund.
Play the deck you're best at. I'm best at UW, it's what I do, I live for it, so that's what I play. I try to play UWR occasionally but I always suck at it. Also UW beats UWR and Grixis and I want to play the deck that beats UWR and Grixis, so, yanno, things and stuff.
Ultimatum is not stronger than Revelation. Not even close. They're close, but Revelation is just better.
And the correct answer to "Why not play UWR?" when it comes to control decks is "Because I don't want to." Each control deck - be it UWR, UW, Faeries, Cruel, or a tempo deck - has its own strengths, weaknesses, and match-up dynamics and there is no strictly superior option among them. Also there's the human factor: different kinds of control deck fit different people. Some people are better at the reactive UWR/Cruel style, some are better than the aggressive UW Midrange tap-out style. Each player has their own nurtured instincts and you'll always do better with the style that comes naturally to you than what is (only technically) the best deck.
Different strokes for different folks is a truism for the ages.
Also, it should be noted that UWR being "the best control deck" was a symptom of the format rather than brute strength - although the deck is obviously incredibly strong. Its Lightning Bolts made it better against Deathrite Shaman than Azorius and its life gain options worked better than Cruel. But now Deathrite is gone and Cruel Control is starting to figure itself out. What's more, the format is balancing out so that UWR's Lightning Bolts aren't the strict best option because every deck is Jund.
Play the deck you're best at. I'm best at UW, it's what I do, I live for it, so that's what I play. I try to play UWR occasionally but I always suck at it. Also UW beats UWR and Grixis and I want to play the deck that beats UWR and Grixis, so, yanno, things and stuff.
I don't disagree with most of what you said except for the fact that Cruel Ultimatum is stronger than revelation. For 7 mana, Cruel Ultimatum will often be worth 8 cards and 10 life (opponent discards 3, loses creature, you draw 3, gain a creature from the yard). To gain an 8 card differential over the opponent with revelation, you would need 11 mana, and that still doesn't affect the board state or deal damage to them. being instant speed helps revelation a bit, but in cruel control, you play cards like Inqisition which makes it fairly easy to resolve an ultimatum when you need to.
There are also some nice tricks you can play with ultimatum in that you can bounce problematic permanents at the end of their turn, then drop your ultimatum to force them to discard this. I've used this with cryptic command or Repeal multiple times to deal with problematic planeswalkers like Liliana of the Veil, to deal with Leyline of Sanctity (permanently) or even to just get rid of a troublesome tron land.
Batterskull isn't win more; it's there to help you stabilize against aggro decks and keep you out of burn range. And it has a super expensive secret mode to it after you rip your opponent's hand apart where you equip it to a Creeping Tarpit and swing straight through their board state (which has won me games already).
Yeah, batterskull definitely isn't win-more. A resolved batterskull makes it so you won't die to being burned off. It's also a very effective weapon in control mirrors since it basically can't be killed, and it's obviously good against decks like Zoo.
I'm not really looking to get into a debate over which card is better. I'm mostly being facetious for the sake of prodding the player of an enemy control deck (as a UW player through and through). I don't think it's possible for one to be strictly superior since they're so different functionally.
I disagree on the statement that revelation is even or better than ultimatum. Ultimatum effects your opponent's board state and resources, it's so much more powerful than revelation that I'm confused as to how you could eve compare the two. Furthemore uw and Uwr are easy matchups for grixis, especially uw. All I have to do is harass you w burn rot w snapcaster beats, when you overextend to keep me off you, I'm gonna make you discard 3 and lose five while I return a snap and draw 3. Uwr is favorable, uw is free
Your removal is Lightning Bolts, Electrolyzes, and two mana spells like Terminate. You're facing a deck that is mostly four toughness creatures and Spell Snares.
Your 4 toughness creatures don't matter, wall of omens? Congrats you got a cantrip, I'm just gonna keep hurling burn at your face at the end of each of your turns, make you discard your counterspells, and when you overextend I'm going to drop an ultimatum.
Yeah uw and uwr are good matchups for cruel in my testing. The issue for me is tron, twin, burn. Things that manage to squeak in their win con before I can get off a cruel without gong all in
Edit: uwr geist, for example, can be a real issue if they manage to dodge an edict.
LOL @ my sideboard as well, I didn't even realize there were only 14 cards in there. I should probably be more careful about clicking the right deck when I join tourneys next time.
Your removal is Lightning Bolts, Electrolyzes, and two mana spells like Terminate. You're facing a deck that is mostly four toughness creatures and Spell Snares.
You don't win that match-up. Not ever.
I fly like Faeries, get high like Jace
I have a very strong UWR control matchup with cruel control. I'd say it's almost as much as 60/40 in our favor, but a lot of that depends on fine tuning of your deck and their deck.
Source: I play this matchup all the time on MTGO, it's pretty easy, although I think a lot of that is just the variant I play. I'm pretty sure I'm 10-2 in my last 12 games against UWR control variants in daily events or 8 man cues.
Reasons why I beat UWR control (with the decklist I play)
First off, you 100% invalidate their removal game. Path to exile & wrath of god are hilariously bad against cruel control. Lightning bolt & helix aren't great either since they're essentially glorified lava spikes. You have to be careful not to get burned off, but you can typically drop a cruel before that happens, so it's not a huge concern. They on the other hand are reliant on winning with creatures typically, which makes your removal plan much more relevant.
Second, you play more disruption for their gameplan. Inquisition of Kozilek is way better than mana leak, especially in this matchup. Remand is also 10x better than mana leak in this matchup since it's never a dead card (it at least cantrips) and can also be used to remand your own spells to nullify their cryptic commands.
If they're playing a creature-based variant of UWR control, that just makes your removal more valid. Terminates & damnations are suddenly relevant.
Augur of bolas is really subtle, but actually can put a lot of slow pressure on your opponent which can be really relevant, especially when you get 2 or more in play. This sounds silly, but they'll eventually have to waste a removal spell on it, which is a definitive 2 for 1.
Maindeck batterskull is very difficult for them to deal with.
You play with a lot more information than they do. Between Augur, Serum Visions, and Inquisition of Kozilek, you get a lot more information about your opponent's gameplan, which allows you to sculpt out an easy way to play around their counters & disruption. On the other hand, they have no clue what you have in hand, and don't play anything that allows them to sculpt their draws. Serum visions becomes really good in long matchups like this since it allows you to mitigate flood & find all the relevant counters you need while getting rid of bad cards such as Damnation in the matchup.
I disagree on the statement that revelation is even or better than ultimatum. Ultimatum effects your opponent's board state and resources, it's so much more powerful than revelation that I'm confused as to how you could eve compare the two. Furthemore uw and Uwr are easy matchups for grixis, especially uw. All I have to do is harass you w burn rot w snapcaster beats, when you overextend to keep me off you, I'm gonna make you discard 3 and lose five while I return a snap and draw 3. Uwr is favorable, uw is free
How is WUR favorable? They run more burn than you. They can beat down with Snapcaster Mages too. They can use Sphinx's Revelation at instant-speed and can easily counter Cruel Ultimatum. They have stronger manlands than you. They have a better manabase than you (especially since they aren't trying to cast an ultimatum). I just can't see how you view this as good, unless if the Thoughtseizes and Inquisitions of Kozilek fix everything.
UWR basically can't do much, every time they tap out for their manland (which costs 5 and is a lot), they're taking a huge risk of extending into an ultimatum. I can pick apart their hands with spot discard and play the tempo game with profitable eot snapcaster + burn spells. Have you ever played agains cruel control running spot discard? It makes the matchup close to one sided. UWR is easy because I don't have to overextend as much as they do, I have spot discard, and cruel ultimatum ruins them.
You seem to think just because someone is playing blue that they're always going to have a counterspell and the mana to cast it. Playing around countermagic, spot discard, and forcing them to tap out to deal with your tempo shouldn't be that foreign of a concept to you by now
Cruel Ultimatum > Revelation
IoK/Seize > Spellsnare by a landslide
Uwr has a marginally better mana base, it's not game-changing. The only difference is that my other fetchland (marsh flats) can't grab a Steam Vents, it can still grab a Blood Crypt or a Watery Grave. As much as I would love to have Polluted Delta, it's not that big of a loss not to have it.
Colonnade is only slightly better (against the meta as a whole), once again though, it's not that much better. The extra mana they have to invest in activating it goes a long way in how this match in particular would transpire. I play both once again, tar pit is only worse in the sense of blocking but the easier activation cost opens up more options. When taking everything into consideration, stats, activation cost, and abilities, tar pit is on par with colonnade in this specific MU.
You can theorize about how uwr beats grixis all day in this match-up but in the end it boils down to how many times you've played it. I've played it plenty of times and I can give you loads of reasons why grixis is favored, but until you get your ass handed to you 7 times out of every ten match-ups I will never convince you since everyone here somehow knows everything there is to know about magic. Just don't say I didn't warn you when you have to deal with getting your hand shredded apart by discard spells (I also know what your hand is, kind of a big deal) backed up by countermagic, tempo, and the backbreaking outcome of getting 10 for 1'd by an ultimatum. Just the threat of Ultimatum itself severely limits your options.
How is WUR favorable? They run more burn than you. They can beat down with Snapcaster Mages too. They can use Sphinx's Revelation at instant-speed and can easily counter Cruel Ultimatum. They have stronger manlands than you. They have a better manabase than you (especially since they aren't trying to cast an ultimatum). I just can't see how you view this as good, unless if the Thoughtseizes and Inquisitions of Kozilek fix everything.
See my post why grixis cruel is generally favored vs. UWR controlhere.
Having more disruption is better than having more burn spells in a control mirror match. Having more information & card filtering is also a huge advantage (inquisition, serum visions, augur, etc). I also feel I have an advantage since many UWR players don't really know how to play against cruel control since it's not a common matchup they face.
I will say - UWR geist is much less favorable than UWR control, especially if you're not packing devour flesh somewhere in your 75. I lost to UWR geist in a recent daily event (although I made a big misplay in not casting an ultimatum when I should have).
I will say - UWR geist is much less favorable than UWR control, especially if you're not packing devour flesh somewhere in your 75. I lost to UWR geist in a recent daily event (although I made a big misplay in not casting an ultimatum when I should have).
God I love the pod matchup. Anger of the gods is such a beating. Faced some new sideboard tech from them in the form of unified will today... Thankfully I had my second anger of the gods in hand.
Rakdos charm is also great against Twin and on the Colonnade v. Tar Pit, the main difference is that while Tar Pit is cheaper and unblockable, it dies to bolt, the most played card in modern.
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Well, as mentioned, I loaded the wrong list, but it wasn't far off. This is what I intended to play. The list I ended up playing had no snapcasters, 2x anger of the gods maindeck, and 61 cards in it. The mana probably isn't ideal, but I didn't have the tickets to pick up cards like Cascade bluffs at the time although I didn't have any major problems with it.
3x Cryptic Command
4x Remand
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Electrolyze
1x Thoughtflare
1x Repeal
Sorceries
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Damnation
1x Anger of the Gods
2x Cruel Ultimatum
4x Serum Visions
Creatures
3x Augur of Bolas
1x Snapcaster Mage
Artifacts
1x Batterskull
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Darkslick Shores
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Lavaclaw Reaches
2x Watery Grave
2x Steam Vents
1x Blood Crypt
2x Drowned Catacomb
2x Sulfur Falls
1x Halimar Depths
1x Dreadship Reef
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Mountain
1x Dragonskull Summit
2x Night of Souls' Betrayal
1x Deathmark
1x Anger of the Gods
1x Countersquall
2x Mana Leak
2x Shattering Spree
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Sowing Salt
2x Combust
Edit: xJosh reformat your list so it's readable and I'm sure people would be more likely to comment. Instant standout is ral. Why is he there? I like your thinking on slaughter pact.
And the correct answer to "Why not play UWR?" when it comes to control decks is "Because I don't want to." Each control deck - be it UWR, UW, Faeries, Cruel, or a tempo deck - has its own strengths, weaknesses, and match-up dynamics and there is no strictly superior option among them. Also there's the human factor: different kinds of control deck fit different people. Some people are better at the reactive UWR/Cruel style, some are better than the aggressive UW Midrange tap-out style. Each player has their own nurtured instincts and you'll always do better with the style that comes naturally to you than what is (only technically) the best deck.
Different strokes for different folks is a truism for the ages.
Also, it should be noted that UWR being "the best control deck" was a symptom of the format rather than brute strength - although the deck is obviously incredibly strong. Its Lightning Bolts made it better against Deathrite Shaman than Azorius and its life gain options worked better than Cruel. But now Deathrite is gone and Cruel Control is starting to figure itself out. What's more, the format is balancing out so that UWR's Lightning Bolts aren't the strict best option because every deck is Jund.
Play the deck you're best at. I'm best at UW, it's what I do, I live for it, so that's what I play. I try to play UWR occasionally but I always suck at it. Also UW beats UWR and Grixis and I want to play the deck that beats UWR and Grixis, so, yanno, things and stuff.
I don't disagree with most of what you said except for the fact that Cruel Ultimatum is stronger than revelation. For 7 mana, Cruel Ultimatum will often be worth 8 cards and 10 life (opponent discards 3, loses creature, you draw 3, gain a creature from the yard). To gain an 8 card differential over the opponent with revelation, you would need 11 mana, and that still doesn't affect the board state or deal damage to them. being instant speed helps revelation a bit, but in cruel control, you play cards like Inqisition which makes it fairly easy to resolve an ultimatum when you need to.
There are also some nice tricks you can play with ultimatum in that you can bounce problematic permanents at the end of their turn, then drop your ultimatum to force them to discard this. I've used this with cryptic command or Repeal multiple times to deal with problematic planeswalkers like Liliana of the Veil, to deal with Leyline of Sanctity (permanently) or even to just get rid of a troublesome tron land.
Yeah, batterskull definitely isn't win-more. A resolved batterskull makes it so you won't die to being burned off. It's also a very effective weapon in control mirrors since it basically can't be killed, and it's obviously good against decks like Zoo.
You don't win that match-up. Not ever.
Edit: uwr geist, for example, can be a real issue if they manage to dodge an edict.
Link to daily event 4-0.
LOL @ my sideboard as well, I didn't even realize there were only 14 cards in there. I should probably be more careful about clicking the right deck when I join tourneys next time.
I have a very strong UWR control matchup with cruel control. I'd say it's almost as much as 60/40 in our favor, but a lot of that depends on fine tuning of your deck and their deck.
Source: I play this matchup all the time on MTGO, it's pretty easy, although I think a lot of that is just the variant I play. I'm pretty sure I'm 10-2 in my last 12 games against UWR control variants in daily events or 8 man cues.
Reasons why I beat UWR control (with the decklist I play)
How is WUR favorable? They run more burn than you. They can beat down with Snapcaster Mages too. They can use Sphinx's Revelation at instant-speed and can easily counter Cruel Ultimatum. They have stronger manlands than you. They have a better manabase than you (especially since they aren't trying to cast an ultimatum). I just can't see how you view this as good, unless if the Thoughtseizes and Inquisitions of Kozilek fix everything.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
You seem to think just because someone is playing blue that they're always going to have a counterspell and the mana to cast it. Playing around countermagic, spot discard, and forcing them to tap out to deal with your tempo shouldn't be that foreign of a concept to you by now
Cruel Ultimatum > Revelation
IoK/Seize > Spellsnare by a landslide
Uwr has a marginally better mana base, it's not game-changing. The only difference is that my other fetchland (marsh flats) can't grab a Steam Vents, it can still grab a Blood Crypt or a Watery Grave. As much as I would love to have Polluted Delta, it's not that big of a loss not to have it.
Colonnade is only slightly better (against the meta as a whole), once again though, it's not that much better. The extra mana they have to invest in activating it goes a long way in how this match in particular would transpire. I play both once again, tar pit is only worse in the sense of blocking but the easier activation cost opens up more options. When taking everything into consideration, stats, activation cost, and abilities, tar pit is on par with colonnade in this specific MU.
You can theorize about how uwr beats grixis all day in this match-up but in the end it boils down to how many times you've played it. I've played it plenty of times and I can give you loads of reasons why grixis is favored, but until you get your ass handed to you 7 times out of every ten match-ups I will never convince you since everyone here somehow knows everything there is to know about magic. Just don't say I didn't warn you when you have to deal with getting your hand shredded apart by discard spells (I also know what your hand is, kind of a big deal) backed up by countermagic, tempo, and the backbreaking outcome of getting 10 for 1'd by an ultimatum. Just the threat of Ultimatum itself severely limits your options.
UWR is favorable
UW is straight up free
See my post why grixis cruel is generally favored vs. UWR controlhere.
Having more disruption is better than having more burn spells in a control mirror match. Having more information & card filtering is also a huge advantage (inquisition, serum visions, augur, etc). I also feel I have an advantage since many UWR players don't really know how to play against cruel control since it's not a common matchup they face.
I will say - UWR geist is much less favorable than UWR control, especially if you're not packing devour flesh somewhere in your 75. I lost to UWR geist in a recent daily event (although I made a big misplay in not casting an ultimatum when I should have).
You just gotta do it, YOLO + disrespect = win