Khalni Garden also saves titan from Liliana's -2 sac. I have been able to rebuy garden a few times just to keep getting blockers which is nice. I have liked the Temple of Mystery as more colored mana and another way to help a tad on consistency. There were times that I wanted a dual land just to be able to cast all my spells. Possibly an island would be better tho to combat blood moon which can be a pain.
I think I will add spellskite to the board as a pretty good answer and blocker against jund. Maybe its not great but i'll try it out. Another avenue I was thinking against jund was to bring in individually powerful cards that are hard to answer. I.E. Thrun or something else.
A tier one jund deck seems tough sometimes when they thoughtsieze you, liliana you, fulminator you and slaughter games you. The constant discard is tough to build a board presence against them.
Khalni Garden also saves titan from Liliana's -2 sac. I have been able to rebuy garden a few times just to keep getting blockers which is nice. I have liked the Temple of Mystery as more colored mana and another way to help a tad on consistency. There were times that I wanted a dual land just to be able to cast all my spells. Possibly an island would be better tho to combat blood moon which can be a pain.
I think I will add spellskite to the board as a pretty good answer and blocker against jund. Maybe its not great but i'll try it out. Another avenue I was thinking against jund was to bring in individually powerful cards that are hard to answer. I.E. Thrun or something else.
A tier one jund deck seems tough sometimes when they thoughtsieze you, liliana you, fulminator you and slaughter games you. The constant discard is tough to build a board presence against them.
If a Jund does all that in a single game, i find hardly believable to win with any deck. That being said, yes, the most useful use imo for khalni garden is to protect titan from lil's -2. I've updated the list im testing, you can find it on my sig
What IS the best way to combat Blood Moon? I have yet to face it and realized the one basic I run maindeck isn't going to cut it. Is it best to run more basics, maindeck some destruction/prevention (maybe Beast Within or Spell Pierce?), or just hope to resolve a cobra before Blood Moon does?
I ended up taking out the remands/compulsive research in favor of more combo pieces and ancient stirrings.
I wouldnt ever play this deck without 4x temple of mystery, the scry is actually really good for setting up a 3card plus combo, and it taps for relevant colors. I only play 7 karrooos, but stirrings and tolaria west+ the scry lands are always enough to find one in time.
I wouldnt ever run this deck without atleast 1 tolaria west, but i feel like 3 or more is just overkill and gunks up the mana as green is just so much more important than any other color
My manland of choice is now stirring wildwoods as it can still block fliers, makes relavent colored mana, and doesnt die to lightning bolt.
I love Meloku as a 1x as he synergizes with our combo peices, but by no means requires them to win.
Seal of primordium x4 is required if you ever want to beat blood moon
I've chosen not to run the Hivemind package. This is simply because I feel that keeping the focus on the main win condition is more consistent. My version has access to Primeval Titan in 15 cards (3 Wargate, 4 Commands, 4 Pacts and the 4 Titans).
I've chosen Ancient Stirrings over Serum Visions because they greatly increase the chance of getting to the Amulet, allow me to have a lower land count and increase the chances off hitting my sideboard artifacts, Wurmcoil and Karn.
The Explores are fine as a two off. At worst it's a cantrip, they speed you up a turn when you don't have an Amulet, allow a turn 2 Titan on a double amulet hand when Azusa or Summer Bloom are missing, make it possible to reuse a bounced one off land on the same turn. Azusa is a better options but having more makes for some awkward draws.
The Primal Commands have been amazing for me. I primarily use them for life gain and searching for a Titan/Wurmcoil against the fast decks. Against control it mostly puts a land on top instead of the life gain.
The lone Karn has been good though not overly impressive. It's a way to remove troublesome permanents like Bloodmoon when they are main deck (it happened to me) and almost never bad to draw due to the amount of mana this deck makes. I've been thinking about replacing it with a Pact of Negation though I don't see many situations the negation would be a better option. Forcing Titan through is what Cavern of Souls is better at and will be my Tolaria West target before I would consider Pact of Negation. And I prefer a more pro-active path over using Titan's land search for Tolaria into pact. If you go for Tolaria into Pact the opponent always has time to play removal before you have the pact. When the opponent was tapped out you most of the time have the opportunity to abuse the Spinerock with the second Titan land search and to produce another threat with it. Though I'm still considering switching it out for a Pact of Negation.
Another thing I'm considering is running another forest over one of the Primal commands. I'm low on forests and feel a little high on the Primal Commands.
Tolaria into pact doesn't always mean pact of negation. Sometimes is just another summoner's so you tell your opponent "if you deal with this one, there's another one coming". Also, tolaria wests are more useful in the builds that run Hive mind as you can search your wincons. Also, hate artifacts.
question: how would be a Spinerock package with titan? if you attacked with a slayers' on titan, you can look for that and have the advantage? how consistent can you achieve that?? Seems like a good idea in the titan focused builds
assuming there are 45 cards left in your library of which 3 are titans when the spinerock triggers it'll find at least one with close to 25%.
if you factor those summoning pacts in it increases to 50%.
when you have 3 titans, 4 pacts, 4 commands, 1 wurm, 1 karn in your 45 left at the time you spinrock then itll see one of these with 75%.
quite loose if you ask me.
I didn't ask for meaningless (at least to me) percent numbers regarding the chances of finding a titan. You activate a hideaway land, you get value, end of story.
What i asked was, "how often you had the chances to attack with two titans or a titan + slayers' stronghold" to do the 7+ damage required by the knoll.
I am testing the no Hive Mind variation and enjoy it so far. I have noticed that Hive Mind is awesome and you can win Turn 2, etc. However, the hands where you have Hive Mind and Primeval Titan didn't end up so well. Having the one focus may be a bit better for not having to mulligan as much.
What's wrong with having both Hive Mind and Primeval Titan? If you are missing a Pact, you can play Primeval Titan, search for Tolaria West and transmute it to win with Hive Mind on the following turn...what would you replace Hive Mind with to improve consistency? I recently went from 2 Hive Mind to 3 Hive Mind.
Here are some thoughts on Spinerock Knoll:
-They work best with Primeval Titan as the win condition while also synergizing with multiple maindeck copies of Hive Mind allowing you to win on that or the next turn
-They give a better reason to run Emrakul, lol
-I would consider effects that give extra turns or extra combat steps as well.
Ideal situation:
Turn 1 Amulet
Turn 2 Primeval Titan, fetch Slayer's Stronghold + Boros Garrison, +2/+0 haste vigilance, attack, fetch Spinerock Knoll and red land, connect for 7 or 8. Activate Spinerock Knoll into something that wins (Hive Mind, Summer Bloom if you have Hive Mind in hand, or Emrakul, or extra turn spell, or extra combat step spell)
Running Time Warp in this deck might not be bad either...but I feel like I'm janking up a legit deck here. I will test to see if this is just a pipe dream.
Well, it's played on the sideboards of Burn, some Splinter Twin lists, some Affinity lists(though I think this is retarded), the mono-Red decks that occasionally pop up (RDW), UR Delver, UR Tempo, and Gruul, so probably about 15-18% of the metagame.
Yes CB. That is exactly why i suggest running hideaway bridge also. The exact same play could be so much stronger.
Turn 1 amulet.
Turn 2 titan into stronghold and garrison. Swing, activate titan for 2 red hideaways. After that crack 1 for another titan, emmy, chancellor of the tangle(allows this to be turn 1), or time walk effect. With that density you are very likely to hit something good.
If its a green titan then you can search for 2 green hideaways and dig and cast another spell.
thats magical christmas land and so much win-more. using titan to find tolaria wes when titan attack is already more than enough to win the game,and tolaria is still very useful even if the rest of the combo isnt coming together
How does something like this look? I'm currently missing a Vesuva, Cavern, and some amount of Azusas. They will go in when I get them, most likely in place of Explores at first.
Creatures (6)
4x Primeval Titan
1x Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1x Trinket Mage
Spells (28)
4x Amulet of Vigor
4x Summer Bloom
4x Remand
4x Summoner's Pact
4x Serum Visions
3x Ancient Stirrings
2x Explore
2x Hive Mind
1x Slaughter Pact
Lands (26)
4x Simic Growth Chamber
3x Selesnya Sanctuary
3x Gemstone Mine
3x Tendo Ice Bridge
3x Temple of Mystery
2x Tolaria West
1x Boros Garrison
1x Gruul Turf
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Slayers' Stronghold
1x Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
1x Inkmoth Nexus
1x Forest
1x Kabira Crossroads
Sideboard (15)
3x Seal of Primordium
2x Wurmcoil Engine
2x Pyroclasm
1x Creeping Corrosion
1x Dispel
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Beast Within
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Pithing Needle
Any thoughts? Is Remand super bad? I've only been goldfishing, but still...
How awful is targeted discard for this deck?
I've also been having some trouble with colored mana in the deck, but I'm not sure what to cut. Inkmoth may be win more, as by the time it's possible to Kessig Wolf Run for game, it means 2+ Titans have resolved...
Is Khalni Garden actually good? I understand giving a target to Slaughter Pact and some random defenses, plus a guy to Wolf Run, but yet another land that CIPT seems really annoying. Running Remands like this is already sometimes awkward. Perhaps that's why no one runs it?
you get expected value not value with certainty (in the case of merems list though its really close to it). this is a game of chance as such saying that probabilities are meaningless is really weird imo.
to your q: doesnt it answer itself ? how often will the 7 damage happen when youre attacking with a 8/6 trample haster? every time your opponent blocks with <2 resistance and doesnt have a removal/shrink.
one could also ask when is it better then tolaria. obviously when your pressured and have to turn the board around immediately with more then a slaughter pact. my deck is still being mailed to me so i cant answer how often that ll happen.
Probabilities are not meaningless in any card game, i agree. But percent numbers are something i never take into account, at least not exactly.
No, you got it wrong. Of course everytime you attack with titan + slayers' or two titans you can activate knoll. But how often you find yourself in that situation, where you can activate it? because it seems that the knoll would only be worthwhile in builds that do not run the hive mind. i am testing the deck with hive mind and, while every time i get an amulet of vigor and a titan and thus meet the hideaway requirements, sometimes you'll find yourself attacking with just the titan dealing 6 meaning no hideaway.
You can't attack with titan and transmute tolaria west turn 2 while you can dig 8 and use hideaway. I want to test with 2 spinerock knoll at least.
Just fyi. If you fetch spinerock and vesuva, the vesuva can't copy spinerock knoll.
My point is that you dont need to find spinerock to win, as passing the turn, and tansemuting (or even just playing and transmuting on turn 3) is more than enough to get the win. Spinerock also makes your deck even softer to creature hate.
as for your deck funnyville, it looks pretty solid, though i would switch one selesnia karroo to the golgari one (for slaughter pact), and I would drop the inkmoth for a stirring wildwood, and i would drop gemstone for another temple. Also, you really do want two pact of negations, as it both protects titan and can also kill with hivemind
Remand is a good card, but I feel it isn't at home here. The biggest issue being hive mind, you play remand with it on the table, and they can remand your remand. Bad times.
I've played against a bit of discard, and sometimes it is an issue yes. If you run into it a lot, running 4 leylines sideboard is the best way to negate it.
I've seen many people run other manlands, such as treetop village or stirring wildwood over inkmoth recently, they offer larger bodies as well as coloured mana, so you could try that.
We had a short discussion about garden a couple of pages back and yes, khalni garden is good. Not only does it provide slaughter pact with a target and occasionally block, it's best use, by what I'd consider a large margin, is prevent lili from -2'ing our precious prime time. It can even do it more than once with the help of karoo lands, which is a big deal.
Well, I feel like once Hive Mind hits the board, I should be about to win. Should I not only be dropping Hive Mind when I'm about to win? Or if it's against control, where I think I would jam it whenever I can get it to resolve, Remand does suck, but I don't think they have anything I care for Remanding.
Any idea what the weakest land is? I'm just not a fan of Karoos, and I'm thinking about dropping another Sanctuary for the Garden, but that drops the Karoo count pretty low.
as for your deck funnyville, it looks pretty solid, though i would switch one selesnia karroo to the golgari one (for slaughter pact), and I would drop the inkmoth for a stirring wildwood, and i would drop gemstone for another temple. Also, you really do want two pact of negations, as it both protects titan and can also kill with hivemind
Sure, the Karoo swap seems good. I'll try the manland swap after today, as well as the Gemstone swap.
What do you think could swap for Pact of Negations? I think if I do that, Remands would need to get dropped to have room for it.
Also, how often do you guys Summer Bloom just for super ramp without an Amulet?
Sorry, this post is only meant for whoever has agreed to write the primer and people who have a lot of experience with it.. I am new to this deck, played it online a little and feel there are certain things that REALLY need to be addressed. I have read the whole thread and tried multiple lists, but there are so many 1-ofs, to someone who has never played this in a tournament before and thus lacking the ability to make logical cuts/alterations, there are a few things I really would like to read from the experienced players. The discussion on Khalni Garden a few pages back was very helpful and if someone could take the time to breakdown the pieces of the deck and explain WHY they chose to play it, that would be the best thing for this deck and primer. If this could serve as some kind of template for the primer awesome, but here is what I have not really read justifications for in the thread:
1. Trinket Mage, Ancient Stirrings, and Wargate, the pros and cons of all. I know Stirrings is favored, but I have seen quite a few lists run Mage as well, and last week at my local tourney I was talking to a guy running Kangaroo and loves it. The general consensus on Wargate is that it is to slow, but does this apply to lists that run Hive Mind and are a little slower than just focusing on the Titan kill?
2. Is 9-10x Karoo lands the optimal number? The color difference is irrelevant because that varies based on the list, but is 9x basically the core? How many REAL lands do you have to play to maintain maximum consistency with the Karoos?
3. What is the minimal/max amount of lands u want? The list I LOVE on mtgtop8 runs 25, but that seems like 2 few. Anyone can get lucky and make top 2 in a small tourney, so, what amount of lands do most feel are the bare minimum to keep it consistent? What do they feel is the MAX to run for consistency and versatility?
Also, Kabira Crossroads stumps me a little. Is this inclusion only for Burn/Affinity/Aggro matchups? Playing a fast combo deck, why would I want to gain life when I can just win? Does this regularly buy the 1 extra turn needed?
5. How necessary is Pact of Negation in builds running Hive Mind. I know this can be meta dependent, but is there a MINIMUM Pact number to run? From my little experience I want 4x Summoner's Pact and 3x Slaughter Pact. Most of the time IF I had been running Negation, in protecting Titan (which from what I read is the essential role) I have either had the win and its irrelevant, another Titan, or didn't have the colors 2 pay for it next turn.
I will be posting tournament reports in the following weeks, I have purchased basically everything on eBay and really like how it plays, but I have never seen SOLID answers to those questions. I am a very experienced combo player, but since I have no actual tournament experience yet with the deck, I can not theoretically answer any of the posed questions and do not want 2 make educated guesses.
Sorry, this post is only meant for whoever has agreed to write the primer and people who have a lot of experience with it.. I am new to this deck, played it online a little and feel there are certain things that REALLY need to be addressed. I have read the whole thread and tried multiple lists, but there are so many 1-ofs, to someone who has never played this in a tournament before and thus lacking the ability to make logical cuts/alterations, there are a few things I really would like to read from the experienced players. The discussion on Khalni Garden a few pages back was very helpful and if someone could take the time to breakdown the pieces of the deck and explain WHY they chose to play it, that would be the best thing for this deck and primer. If this could serve as some kind of template for the primer awesome, but here is what I have not really read justifications for in the thread:
1. Trinket Mage, Ancient Stirrings, and Wargate, the pros and cons of all. I know Stirrings is favored, but I have seen quite a few lists run Mage as well, and last week at my local tourney I was talking to a guy running Kangaroo and loves it. The general consensus on Wargate is that it is to slow, but does this apply to lists that run Hive Mind and are a little slower than just focusing on the Titan kill?
2. Is 9-10x Karoo lands the optimal number? The color difference is irrelevant because that varies based on the list, but is 9x basically the core? How many REAL lands do you have to play to maintain maximum consistency with the Karoos?
3. What is the minimal/max amount of lands u want? The list I LOVE on mtgtop8 runs 25, but that seems like 2 few. Anyone can get lucky and make top 2 in a small tourney, so, what amount of lands do most feel are the bare minimum to keep it consistent? What do they feel is the MAX to run for consistency and versatility?
Also, Kabira Crossroads stumps me a little. Is this inclusion only for Burn/Affinity/Aggro matchups? Playing a fast combo deck, why would I want to gain life when I can just win? Does this regularly buy the 1 extra turn needed?
5. How necessary is Pact of Negation in builds running Hive Mind. I know this can be meta dependent, but is there a MINIMUM Pact number to run? From my little experience I want 4x Summoner's Pact and 3x Slaughter Pact. Most of the time IF I had been running Negation, in protecting Titan (which from what I read is the essential role) I have either had the win and its irrelevant, another Titan, or didn't have the colors 2 pay for it next turn.
I will be posting tournament reports in the following weeks, I have purchased basically everything on eBay and really like how it plays, but I have never seen SOLID answers to those questions. I am a very experienced combo player, but since I have no actual tournament experience yet with the deck, I can not theoretically answer any of the posed questions and do not want 2 make educated guesses.
1 - While i have not even tried Wargate, i can speak about Stirrings vs Trinket Mage. The main difference is probably what're you going to do with them. Stirrings will be probably cast t1 o t2 to find, either a missing karoo, a tolaria or an amulet. It's more proactive. Trinket mage doesn't allow you to find land, but if you run it, you can (and should) run 1 or less mana artifacts that can improve certain game 1 matchups (chalice, relic, EE, etc). It's mostly a matter of preference. Stirrings helps the combo being more consistent, Trinket mage allows to have answers so you'll be able to survive long enough to combo off. Whatever you value more is what you should run. One thing worth of note is that (this is just personal opinion), if you run stirrings, you should run Wurmcoil in your 75. It's a great card in a deck like ours and its better when you have ways to find it. Stirrings does just that. I can say also that, the thing that drove me away the most from stirrings was that, many times i failed to hit an amulet and picked a land, but sent to the bottom four cards i wanted to be on top. So i just stick to serum visions, amulet and CIPT land as my one drops.
2 and 3- I refuse to run anything less than 27 lands. The color diference though, in some, very rare cases can be a problem. as for karoo, i run 10 and sometimes i think going down by one is not a bad idea
4 - Kabira Crossroads: Yes. if you get to a bit of a slow start, being able to fetch this + vesuva to gain 4 can buy that extra turn against burn or fast aggro.
Kessig is only worthwhile if ran alongside Inkmoth. It's a cute backup plan, but imo, inkmoth is just too fragile and kessig doesn't do enough outside of this to justify running it.
Khalni: extra blocker and negates (sometimes) LotV.
Tolaria West: i believe to be mildly important in the non hive lists, but the single most important land in the hive builds. aside from pact fetching, i know that i said it many times, but discarding a land and getting EE against jund or affinity is insane
5 - Most of the time its use will be protect titan, but, also it can force a titan through countermagic if cavern is absent. That enough imo, makes me believe it to be maindeckable. One thing i learnt the hard way to keep in mind when using pacts (in both hive and nonhive builds) against URW control is that they run tectonic edge. So, it's VERY important to double check that we can pay the pact's next turn even if they play a tec edge and blow up a two mana land or color screw us. Probably a minimum of pacts would be 6 (just a wild guess). i believe that number to be the minimum to be able to consistently access a pact (between the pacts and tolarias). 4 of summon and 2 negation, the slaughter's one are the weakest imo.
Well, Karoos are all fun and not, but then playing 10-11 gives some super awful hands. I'm down to 9 now, and am considering going to 8. Also, getting randomly blown out by Ghost Quarter/Tectonic Edge is disgusting...
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I think I will add spellskite to the board as a pretty good answer and blocker against jund. Maybe its not great but i'll try it out. Another avenue I was thinking against jund was to bring in individually powerful cards that are hard to answer. I.E. Thrun or something else.
A tier one jund deck seems tough sometimes when they thoughtsieze you, liliana you, fulminator you and slaughter games you. The constant discard is tough to build a board presence against them.
If a Jund does all that in a single game, i find hardly believable to win with any deck. That being said, yes, the most useful use imo for khalni garden is to protect titan from lil's -2. I've updated the list im testing, you can find it on my sig
BRG Living End
UGWRB Titan Bloom (40% complete)
Regarding running a 4-color deck without fetchlands:
MostlyLost on Cockatrice.
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Standard Competitive Member4 Amulet of Vigor
4 Summer Bloom
4 Summoner's Pact
2 Pact of Negation
2 Hive Mind
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Boros Garrison
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Simic Growth Chamber
1 Gemstone Mine
2 Tolaria West
1 Gruul Turf
1 Selesnya Sanctuary
1 Slayers' Stronghold
1 Golgari Rot Farm
4 Temple of Mystery
1 Forest
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1 Khalni Garden
1 Vesuva
4 Serum Visions
1 Kabira Crossroads
1 Trinket Mage
3 Ancient Stirrings
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 Tendo Ice Bridge
1 Meloku the Clouded Mirror
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
I ended up taking out the remands/compulsive research in favor of more combo pieces and ancient stirrings.
I wouldnt ever play this deck without 4x temple of mystery, the scry is actually really good for setting up a 3card plus combo, and it taps for relevant colors. I only play 7 karrooos, but stirrings and tolaria west+ the scry lands are always enough to find one in time.
I wouldnt ever run this deck without atleast 1 tolaria west, but i feel like 3 or more is just overkill and gunks up the mana as green is just so much more important than any other color
My manland of choice is now stirring wildwoods as it can still block fliers, makes relavent colored mana, and doesnt die to lightning bolt.
I love Meloku as a 1x as he synergizes with our combo peices, but by no means requires them to win.
Seal of primordium x4 is required if you ever want to beat blood moon
Tolaria into pact doesn't always mean pact of negation. Sometimes is just another summoner's so you tell your opponent "if you deal with this one, there's another one coming". Also, tolaria wests are more useful in the builds that run Hive mind as you can search your wincons. Also, hate artifacts.
question: how would be a Spinerock package with titan? if you attacked with a slayers' on titan, you can look for that and have the advantage? how consistent can you achieve that?? Seems like a good idea in the titan focused builds
BRG Living End
UGWRB Titan Bloom (40% complete)
I didn't ask for meaningless (at least to me) percent numbers regarding the chances of finding a titan. You activate a hideaway land, you get value, end of story.
What i asked was, "how often you had the chances to attack with two titans or a titan + slayers' stronghold" to do the 7+ damage required by the knoll.
BRG Living End
UGWRB Titan Bloom (40% complete)
I stream Modern events semi-regularly at http://www.twitch.tv/nezeru
Here are some thoughts on Spinerock Knoll:
-They work best with Primeval Titan as the win condition while also synergizing with multiple maindeck copies of Hive Mind allowing you to win on that or the next turn
-They give a better reason to run Emrakul, lol
-I would consider effects that give extra turns or extra combat steps as well.
Ideal situation:
Turn 1 Amulet
Turn 2 Primeval Titan, fetch Slayer's Stronghold + Boros Garrison, +2/+0 haste vigilance, attack, fetch Spinerock Knoll and red land, connect for 7 or 8. Activate Spinerock Knoll into something that wins (Hive Mind, Summer Bloom if you have Hive Mind in hand, or Emrakul, or extra turn spell, or extra combat step spell)
Running Time Warp in this deck might not be bad either...but I feel like I'm janking up a legit deck here. I will test to see if this is just a pipe dream.
I stream Modern events semi-regularly at http://www.twitch.tv/nezeru
I stream Modern events semi-regularly at http://www.twitch.tv/nezeru
Turn 1 amulet.
Turn 2 titan into stronghold and garrison. Swing, activate titan for 2 red hideaways. After that crack 1 for another titan, emmy, chancellor of the tangle(allows this to be turn 1), or time walk effect. With that density you are very likely to hit something good.
If its a green titan then you can search for 2 green hideaways and dig and cast another spell.
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Standard Competitive MemberCreatures (6)
4x Primeval Titan
1x Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1x Trinket Mage
Spells (28)
4x Amulet of Vigor
4x Summer Bloom
4x Remand
4x Summoner's Pact
4x Serum Visions
3x Ancient Stirrings
2x Explore
2x Hive Mind
1x Slaughter Pact
Lands (26)
4x Simic Growth Chamber
3x Selesnya Sanctuary
3x Gemstone Mine
3x Tendo Ice Bridge
3x Temple of Mystery
2x Tolaria West
1x Boros Garrison
1x Gruul Turf
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Slayers' Stronghold
1x Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
1x Inkmoth Nexus
1x Forest
1x Kabira Crossroads
Sideboard (15)
3x Seal of Primordium
2x Wurmcoil Engine
2x Pyroclasm
1x Creeping Corrosion
1x Dispel
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Beast Within
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Pithing Needle
Any thoughts? Is Remand super bad? I've only been goldfishing, but still...
How awful is targeted discard for this deck?
I've also been having some trouble with colored mana in the deck, but I'm not sure what to cut. Inkmoth may be win more, as by the time it's possible to Kessig Wolf Run for game, it means 2+ Titans have resolved...
Is Khalni Garden actually good? I understand giving a target to Slaughter Pact and some random defenses, plus a guy to Wolf Run, but yet another land that CIPT seems really annoying. Running Remands like this is already sometimes awkward. Perhaps that's why no one runs it?
Just fyi. If you fetch spinerock and vesuva, the vesuva can't copy spinerock knoll.
I stream Modern events semi-regularly at http://www.twitch.tv/nezeru
Probabilities are not meaningless in any card game, i agree. But percent numbers are something i never take into account, at least not exactly.
No, you got it wrong. Of course everytime you attack with titan + slayers' or two titans you can activate knoll. But how often you find yourself in that situation, where you can activate it? because it seems that the knoll would only be worthwhile in builds that do not run the hive mind. i am testing the deck with hive mind and, while every time i get an amulet of vigor and a titan and thus meet the hideaway requirements, sometimes you'll find yourself attacking with just the titan dealing 6 meaning no hideaway.
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UGWRB Titan Bloom (40% complete)
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Standard Competitive MemberMy point is that you dont need to find spinerock to win, as passing the turn, and tansemuting (or even just playing and transmuting on turn 3) is more than enough to get the win. Spinerock also makes your deck even softer to creature hate.
as for your deck funnyville, it looks pretty solid, though i would switch one selesnia karroo to the golgari one (for slaughter pact), and I would drop the inkmoth for a stirring wildwood, and i would drop gemstone for another temple. Also, you really do want two pact of negations, as it both protects titan and can also kill with hivemind
Well, I feel like once Hive Mind hits the board, I should be about to win. Should I not only be dropping Hive Mind when I'm about to win? Or if it's against control, where I think I would jam it whenever I can get it to resolve, Remand does suck, but I don't think they have anything I care for Remanding.
Any idea what the weakest land is? I'm just not a fan of Karoos, and I'm thinking about dropping another Sanctuary for the Garden, but that drops the Karoo count pretty low.
Sure, the Karoo swap seems good. I'll try the manland swap after today, as well as the Gemstone swap.
What do you think could swap for Pact of Negations? I think if I do that, Remands would need to get dropped to have room for it.
Also, how often do you guys Summer Bloom just for super ramp without an Amulet?
1. Trinket Mage, Ancient Stirrings, and Wargate, the pros and cons of all. I know Stirrings is favored, but I have seen quite a few lists run Mage as well, and last week at my local tourney I was talking to a guy running Kangaroo and loves it. The general consensus on Wargate is that it is to slow, but does this apply to lists that run Hive Mind and are a little slower than just focusing on the Titan kill?
2. Is 9-10x Karoo lands the optimal number? The color difference is irrelevant because that varies based on the list, but is 9x basically the core? How many REAL lands do you have to play to maintain maximum consistency with the Karoos?
3. What is the minimal/max amount of lands u want? The list I LOVE on mtgtop8 runs 25, but that seems like 2 few. Anyone can get lucky and make top 2 in a small tourney, so, what amount of lands do most feel are the bare minimum to keep it consistent? What do they feel is the MAX to run for consistency and versatility?
4. A breakdown of the 1-of lands. Slayers' Stronghold and Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion are mandatory, but why do lists differ so much on Kessig Wolf Run. Half run it and half don't. Why? Is it THAT crucial? Does it matter if you are running Hive Mind to merit this inclusion?
Also, Kabira Crossroads stumps me a little. Is this inclusion only for Burn/Affinity/Aggro matchups? Playing a fast combo deck, why would I want to gain life when I can just win? Does this regularly buy the 1 extra turn needed?
5. How necessary is Pact of Negation in builds running Hive Mind. I know this can be meta dependent, but is there a MINIMUM Pact number to run? From my little experience I want 4x Summoner's Pact and 3x Slaughter Pact. Most of the time IF I had been running Negation, in protecting Titan (which from what I read is the essential role) I have either had the win and its irrelevant, another Titan, or didn't have the colors 2 pay for it next turn.
I will be posting tournament reports in the following weeks, I have purchased basically everything on eBay and really like how it plays, but I have never seen SOLID answers to those questions. I am a very experienced combo player, but since I have no actual tournament experience yet with the deck, I can not theoretically answer any of the posed questions and do not want 2 make educated guesses.
1 - While i have not even tried Wargate, i can speak about Stirrings vs Trinket Mage. The main difference is probably what're you going to do with them. Stirrings will be probably cast t1 o t2 to find, either a missing karoo, a tolaria or an amulet. It's more proactive. Trinket mage doesn't allow you to find land, but if you run it, you can (and should) run 1 or less mana artifacts that can improve certain game 1 matchups (chalice, relic, EE, etc). It's mostly a matter of preference. Stirrings helps the combo being more consistent, Trinket mage allows to have answers so you'll be able to survive long enough to combo off. Whatever you value more is what you should run. One thing worth of note is that (this is just personal opinion), if you run stirrings, you should run Wurmcoil in your 75. It's a great card in a deck like ours and its better when you have ways to find it. Stirrings does just that. I can say also that, the thing that drove me away the most from stirrings was that, many times i failed to hit an amulet and picked a land, but sent to the bottom four cards i wanted to be on top. So i just stick to serum visions, amulet and CIPT land as my one drops.
2 and 3- I refuse to run anything less than 27 lands. The color diference though, in some, very rare cases can be a problem. as for karoo, i run 10 and sometimes i think going down by one is not a bad idea
4 - Kabira Crossroads: Yes. if you get to a bit of a slow start, being able to fetch this + vesuva to gain 4 can buy that extra turn against burn or fast aggro.
Kessig is only worthwhile if ran alongside Inkmoth. It's a cute backup plan, but imo, inkmoth is just too fragile and kessig doesn't do enough outside of this to justify running it.
Khalni: extra blocker and negates (sometimes) LotV.
Tolaria West: i believe to be mildly important in the non hive lists, but the single most important land in the hive builds. aside from pact fetching, i know that i said it many times, but discarding a land and getting EE against jund or affinity is insane
5 - Most of the time its use will be protect titan, but, also it can force a titan through countermagic if cavern is absent. That enough imo, makes me believe it to be maindeckable. One thing i learnt the hard way to keep in mind when using pacts (in both hive and nonhive builds) against URW control is that they run tectonic edge. So, it's VERY important to double check that we can pay the pact's next turn even if they play a tec edge and blow up a two mana land or color screw us. Probably a minimum of pacts would be 6 (just a wild guess). i believe that number to be the minimum to be able to consistently access a pact (between the pacts and tolarias). 4 of summon and 2 negation, the slaughter's one are the weakest imo.
BRG Living End
UGWRB Titan Bloom (40% complete)