I have not tested deprive, instead I play remands. This is probably why I have not been having an issue with the black needed for inquisition (I often find myself fetching blood crypt when I go for inquisition turn one). Its possible that the double blue needed for deprive makes discard spells unplayable.
I have been playing only two snapcasters ($$$), two tasigur, and three probe for a total of 3 inquisition main. I also used to cut one 1 electrolyze and put it in the board, but that turned out to be wrong.
I can see myself cutting a second probe. But, its possible that its just too good to cut.
I have not tested deprive, instead I play remands. This is probably why I have not been having an issue with the black needed for inquisition (I often find myself fetching blood crypt when I go for inquisition turn one). Its possible that the double blue needed for deprive makes discard spells unplayable.
I have been playing only two snapcasters ($$$), two tasigur, and three probe for a total of 3 inquisition main. I also used to cut one 1 electrolyze and put it in the board, but that turned out to be wrong.
I can see myself cutting a second probe. But, its possible that its just too good to cut.
Thats something I thought I'd do myself using max's list.
- 1 Electrolyze
- 1 Deprive
- 1 Sleight of Hand
+3 IOK or Thoughtsieze
Pobably iok to take stuff that can hurt our creatures, since there are counter and kill spells to stop the big stuff. DOing that I'd change one land to have another black mana.
@ max
In Regards to your burn comments, did you find the 3 dragons claw not enough or didn't work well? I agree with the skite and vandal inclusions. I'd also want to fit a second skite in, to help with burn and twin matches. Porbably cutting keranos (I personally just wouldnt want to tap out to play it, but im sure you've tested it more and might do well). Thanks for your input so far!
Hey guys i'm on the GP list now, and have loved deprive against everything but burn.
I think some number of spell pierce, dragon's claw and maybe even Elixir of Immortality would help this deck a lot
I'm considering dropping 1 Electrolyze for a mainboard thoughtseize. Thoughts?
On deprive - One of the biggest strengths of the deck is its ability to pla ythe control/long and grindy game. Against the 2 most popular decks in the format (abzan and twin) they games tend to go very long and be extremely grindy. Deprive shines here, lets look at a few different situations. You flip turn 1 delver and deprive their removal spell, yes this puts you behind vs leak but you are probably winning the game anyway. Depriving something on turn 3-4, you are running 18 lands, in most situations you would not have land to play the next turn so deprive is not setting you back. Late game, deprive is miles better than any of the other counters. I at 1 point I had 3 deprive 1 remand main with hte 4th in the sb but found myself brining it in every twin and abzan match.
@PUFNSTUF360 - I have not tested much with maindeck discard (unfortunately I don't have infite testing time although I wish), I'm really curious to see how it goes for you. My main concern would be in most cases you want your first dual to be vents since red is more important in the early game.
@Moutz and @CmdrSlayer - DEfinitely agree the board needs work, outpost siege being the glaring change. I switched onto basic swamp and blood moons about 4 days before the gp and did not have time to go back and retest abzan where outpost siege shined. I would definitely cut it for one mroe anti affintiy card either shatterstorm or vandalbalst depending on how flexible you want it to be. Combust also underpreformed and I would really encourage a switch towards spellskite.
I'm not sure how much can be done for the burn matchup without really hurting a lot of other matchups. Burn is always goingto be a struggle for a 3 color aggro control deck.
Also the the point of playing the long game while you don't have a massive number of sources of traditional card advantage (electro, snap, tasigur) the cantrip density means you are much less likely to flood out than your opponent in the long run.
Elixir of immortality was one I considered but it honestly depends on your build. If you are running a lot of delve, it could very well make some awkward situations with cards stuck in hand which obviously slows our ability to close the game out, not to mention it is prime skullcrack fodder if they hold a skullcrack which they probably will. I think just having counters for them and hoping to race may be our best bet, but even that feels pretty bad. Batterskull is pretty slow. I think we just have to hope hey flood or get matched up elsewhere. All of my testing games where I won against burn usually ended up countering spells here and there alongside removal and tasigur swinging in.
As far as deprive being "bad," it very well could be... But I am still gonna give it a try. It really gets better as the games go long and when matched up with abzan, the games will go long. It was pretty funny I was having a conversation about that with a friend right before I looked here. I think I'll be much happier sending that rhino, goyf, Lili, etc to the bin rather than let them stabilize again like remand/mana leak (vs goyf or other cheap spells) would.
Also, I don't really like discard in a tempo deck personally. If we are playing swiftspear, it could be very good. I am willing to be wrong though so let me know how it tests for you guys.
1-2 BG Zombies - impossible to deal with a landed lotleth troll. never found the 1 of terminate. last game never got lands, mulled to 6 as well. only 2 lands after 5 draws, 2 thought scours.
0-2 burn - Max was right, burns brutalally bad, and there probably isn't anything to be done to beat it. g1 searing blaze killed my one delver, died by t3. g2 got out a claw third turn (had to dig for it so couldnt play it turn 2) and was dead turn 4 by two 3/4 monastery swifts. 2 vexing devils on turn 2 dealing 8 damage was huge. Stuck on 2 lands in 5 draws.
I did want to fetch a blood crypt in one game, so may add that to the mana base. I do think I want to up the land count by one. Deprive was ok some games, but due to the low land count and how many times I missed drops, I don't think its where I want to be. Leaning towards leak over it, but I will test it another day or two before changing over to leaks.
I just saw this Grixis Delver list that 4-0'd a daily on mtggoldfish.com and I just wanted to share it. I played U/R Delver till Treasure Cruise got banned and was trying figure out what to do. Well, I've been thinking about putting Tasigur, The Golden Fang in and this list looks pretty sweet. I'll be testing this today and will post results with it later.
Idk about in delver, but I have played darkblast in other decks. It is stellar. Against affinity it can literally just single handed win the game. A lot of matchups it is ok-bad. Getting mana dorks is great though.
As far as better life gain, I browsed it and couldn't find many options... Seems we may have to play dragon's claw, sun droplets, or elixir of immortality. There are some other options... Like circle of affliction, suffer the past, siphon life, crypt incursion, but I don't think we have super great options if we go the lifegain rout. The rest mostly just feel even more slow. It is strange how bad blacks little lifesteals are in modern.
This 4-0'd a daily. Looks pretty normal for a Grixis Delver list. The only thing I don't really agree with is 3 Thought Scour and the budget manabase (No Tarns). I would probably play 4 Scours especially if I was playing that much graveyard interaction (3 Tasigur, 2 Cut, 4 Snap). I tried something similar and I found myself clogging on these types of cards especially in multiples and without Scours. We need to find a balance with the amount of graveyard interaction. Anyone have optimal numbers on these? I have liked 1 Cut, 3 Snap, 3 Tasigur.
Nice insight, Moutz! I would still play Tarns, but I completely understand not having them online or IRL (I still don't own a set, I always have to borrow them). In Grixis colors, its not AS BIG of a deal as it is in UR, but I think Scalding Tarns are strictly optimal and you DEFINITELY want to be searching the Primary color basics (UR) less painfully especially with decks like Affinity and Burn being in the metagame. The thing with 4 Thought Scour that I like is I want them because they fuel all the delve and Snapcasters in the deck. I'll try your graveyard package just to make sure the bigger things in my hand don't stay there.
I've always liked Sulfur Falls and always felt like you never needed more than 1 Black manasource in play at a time and ended up dropping Darkslick Shores.
I have been playing only two snapcasters ($$$), two tasigur, and three probe for a total of 3 inquisition main. I also used to cut one 1 electrolyze and put it in the board, but that turned out to be wrong.
I can see myself cutting a second probe. But, its possible that its just too good to cut.
Thats something I thought I'd do myself using max's list.
- 1 Electrolyze
- 1 Deprive
- 1 Sleight of Hand
+3 IOK or Thoughtsieze
Pobably iok to take stuff that can hurt our creatures, since there are counter and kill spells to stop the big stuff. DOing that I'd change one land to have another black mana.
@ max
In Regards to your burn comments, did you find the 3 dragons claw not enough or didn't work well? I agree with the skite and vandal inclusions. I'd also want to fit a second skite in, to help with burn and twin matches. Porbably cutting keranos (I personally just wouldnt want to tap out to play it, but im sure you've tested it more and might do well). Thanks for your input so far!
Grand Arbiter
Omnath
Skittles
I think some number of spell pierce, dragon's claw and maybe even Elixir of Immortality would help this deck a lot
I'm considering dropping 1 Electrolyze for a mainboard thoughtseize. Thoughts?
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Snapcaster Mage
Sorcery (9)
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
1 Sleight of Hand
4 Deprive
1 Terminate
3 Murderous Cut
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Electrolyze
4 Thought Scour
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Sulfur Falls
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Combust
1 Outpost Siege
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Shatterstorm
1 Dispel
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Blood Moon
3 Dragon's Claw
1 Thoughtseize
Standard
UB UB Midrange UB
Modern
GRWUBTribal Flames ZooGRWUB
RUGTemur DelverRUG
Legacy
UW Stoneblade UW
On deprive - One of the biggest strengths of the deck is its ability to pla ythe control/long and grindy game. Against the 2 most popular decks in the format (abzan and twin) they games tend to go very long and be extremely grindy. Deprive shines here, lets look at a few different situations. You flip turn 1 delver and deprive their removal spell, yes this puts you behind vs leak but you are probably winning the game anyway. Depriving something on turn 3-4, you are running 18 lands, in most situations you would not have land to play the next turn so deprive is not setting you back. Late game, deprive is miles better than any of the other counters. I at 1 point I had 3 deprive 1 remand main with hte 4th in the sb but found myself brining it in every twin and abzan match.
@PUFNSTUF360 - I have not tested much with maindeck discard (unfortunately I don't have infite testing time although I wish), I'm really curious to see how it goes for you. My main concern would be in most cases you want your first dual to be vents since red is more important in the early game.
@Moutz and @CmdrSlayer - DEfinitely agree the board needs work, outpost siege being the glaring change. I switched onto basic swamp and blood moons about 4 days before the gp and did not have time to go back and retest abzan where outpost siege shined. I would definitely cut it for one mroe anti affintiy card either shatterstorm or vandalbalst depending on how flexible you want it to be. Combust also underpreformed and I would really encourage a switch towards spellskite.
I'm not sure how much can be done for the burn matchup without really hurting a lot of other matchups. Burn is always goingto be a struggle for a 3 color aggro control deck.
Also do you mind posting your SB plan?
Standard
UB UB Midrange UB
Modern
GRWUBTribal Flames ZooGRWUB
RUGTemur DelverRUG
Legacy
UW Stoneblade UW
As far as deprive being "bad," it very well could be... But I am still gonna give it a try. It really gets better as the games go long and when matched up with abzan, the games will go long. It was pretty funny I was having a conversation about that with a friend right before I looked here. I think I'll be much happier sending that rhino, goyf, Lili, etc to the bin rather than let them stabilize again like remand/mana leak (vs goyf or other cheap spells) would.
Also, I don't really like discard in a tempo deck personally. If we are playing swiftspear, it could be very good. I am willing to be wrong though so let me know how it tests for you guys.
Had some testing tonight. Deck for reference:
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
3 Deprive
1 Terminate
3 Murderous Cut
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Electrolyze
4 Thought Scour
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Swamp
3 Island
1 Mountain
2 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Drowned Catacomb
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Shattering Spree
1 Shatterstorm
2 Blood Moon
3 Dragon's Claw
1 Dispel
1 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Spellskite
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Combust
1-2 Grisel Reani - g3 he landed a turn 1 defense grid which shut me out. had a nihil on board but he through the breached an emrakul
2-1 UB mill
2-0 RW Hatebears/Flicker (vials, flickering akroma)
1-2 BG Zombies - impossible to deal with a landed lotleth troll. never found the 1 of terminate. last game never got lands, mulled to 6 as well. only 2 lands after 5 draws, 2 thought scours.
0-2 burn - Max was right, burns brutalally bad, and there probably isn't anything to be done to beat it. g1 searing blaze killed my one delver, died by t3. g2 got out a claw third turn (had to dig for it so couldnt play it turn 2) and was dead turn 4 by two 3/4 monastery swifts. 2 vexing devils on turn 2 dealing 8 damage was huge. Stuck on 2 lands in 5 draws.
I did want to fetch a blood crypt in one game, so may add that to the mana base. I do think I want to up the land count by one. Deprive was ok some games, but due to the low land count and how many times I missed drops, I don't think its where I want to be. Leaning towards leak over it, but I will test it another day or two before changing over to leaks.
Loving the inquisitions though!
Grand Arbiter
Omnath
Skittles
Standard
UB UB Midrange UB
Modern
GRWUBTribal Flames ZooGRWUB
RUGTemur DelverRUG
Legacy
UW Stoneblade UW
I'm running discard main. Not sure if spell pierce is where we want to be. I'll have to browse the gatherer for better life gain cards.
Grand Arbiter
Omnath
Skittles
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Young Pyromancer
1 Grim Lavamancer
Spells (24)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Serum Visions
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Remand
4 Thought Scour
1 Forked Bolt
1 Dismember
1 Murderous Cut
1 Spell Snare
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Darkslick Shores
2 Island
2 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Blood Crypt
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Watery Grave
3 Monastery Siege
2 Duress
2 Spellskite
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Murderous Cut
1 Batterskull
1 Combust
1 Counterflux
1 Dispel
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Rakdos Charm
As far as better life gain, I browsed it and couldn't find many options... Seems we may have to play dragon's claw, sun droplets, or elixir of immortality. There are some other options... Like circle of affliction, suffer the past, siphon life, crypt incursion, but I don't think we have super great options if we go the lifegain rout. The rest mostly just feel even more slow. It is strange how bad blacks little lifesteals are in modern.
consider deprive over remand?
Standard
UB UB Midrange UB
Modern
GRWUBTribal Flames ZooGRWUB
RUGTemur DelverRUG
Legacy
UW Stoneblade UW
-edit-
nevermind that is horrible thought it worked another way.
Standard
UB UB Midrange UB
Modern
GRWUBTribal Flames ZooGRWUB
RUGTemur DelverRUG
Legacy
UW Stoneblade UW
This 4-0'd a daily. Looks pretty normal for a Grixis Delver list. The only thing I don't really agree with is 3 Thought Scour and the budget manabase (No Tarns). I would probably play 4 Scours especially if I was playing that much graveyard interaction (3 Tasigur, 2 Cut, 4 Snap). I tried something similar and I found myself clogging on these types of cards especially in multiples and without Scours. We need to find a balance with the amount of graveyard interaction. Anyone have optimal numbers on these? I have liked 1 Cut, 3 Snap, 3 Tasigur.
Modern UMerfolkU
Legacy UMerfolkU
Standard XWhatever's GoodX
I tried out Max's manabase and I missed Blood Crypt 3 times last night. It's back in for me. My manabase is this and it's been working great:
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Island
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Watery Grave
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Blood Crypt
2 Steam Vents
I've always liked Sulfur Falls and always felt like you never needed more than 1 Black manasource in play at a time and ended up dropping Darkslick Shores.
Modern UMerfolkU
Legacy UMerfolkU
Standard XWhatever's GoodX