My matchup(as I said before) with abzan has been abominable. I think we might just have to deal with one for ones through better spot removal (terminate and murderous cut) and hope to race them.so far every game both of us have run out of gas at the same time, but gavony and just... Well better threats come down and finish the job.
This is pretty much the same problem I've been having. I think we might have to use a "go under" approach in this match-up (and we will probably have to build accordingly) because we can't effectively trade 1 for 1 because their threats are simply better. A simple Scavenging Ooze is a nightmare if you are holding Snapcaster etc.
Just got done with another Daily, and unfortunately lost a match to Burn to fall to 3-1. The rounds this time were:
Burn 2-0
Twin 2-0
Burn 0-2
Merfolk 2-1
Everything felt good, except I'm starting to think I will replace my Shattering Sprees with some kind of life gain. Burn is always popular and I think it's actually a harder matchup than Affinity, especially my build that has Forked Bolts and Darkblast to kill all the dudes efficiently.
I'm also toying with the idea of trying Trigon of Mending instead of the claw, or maybe a 1/1 split. It is less mana efficient, because you have to pay 2 each time, but it is a guaranteed 9 life, which is often as much if not more than the claw would provide. Something to consider.
Also, although I didn't get to cast it, I did have Rakdos Charm in hand against the Merfolk player as a potential Price of Progress level burn spell. He was playing Master of Waves, and if he had tried to play a couple lords on the turn before I was going to win to try and alpha-strike I could have burned him for at least 6. The fact that it also hits Æther Vial was the reason I brought 1 in. Would have been hilarious.
Trigon is an interesting one. I have found that claw doesn't work nearly as well as it used to with my deck having so much less red for obvious reasons. I spent forever trying to find some sort of lifegain and I kinda passed over trigon thinking we would have to play it turn four, (I am dumb) I don't think we need to worry about them siding in artifact destruction too much... Lol. The option I sadly settled on was leyline which might still be best, but in just hate the unreliability of it in non-white decks. It becomes a painful topdeck when you are in the race portion of the burn matchup.
Also, 3-1 is still really great for a deck we are still figuring out! I keep getting matched up against burn and junk so I am not doing nearly as well as you! 3-1 is my best (paper player).
My aim is to play strictly wizard creatures - my LGS has modern as "Invitational qualifiers" and I have already won my invite playing Twin... So as to avoid sniping a second invite playing my best deck I am trying to put together a slightly handicapped but still competitive list so I won't feel bad if I win again. Part of my handicap is to only play wizard creatures... So young peezy and tasigur are out of the question. I may even cut the Spellskite from the board since its a horror :/. Anyways... Thanks!
Max Walsh currently battling Kenji's UR Twin with a 10-1 record on the line. Walsh currently up one game.
Hope you guys are ready for Developing Competitive or even Tier 2!
It was only a matter of time, really. Been playing this online for a while now and it is certainly able to hang with the big players of the format. I don't even remember the last time I went less than 3-1 in a Daily. I'll miss living in the shadows though.
Now I'm off to go play more Death Cloud until that catches on...
So Trigon of Mending testing went pretty poorly. The mana requirements weren't appreciated, and the once-per-turn life gain was easy for Burn to line up their Skullcracks against.
However, I think I found another answer: Vampiric Link. We need to protect a guy beating down to win anyway, and gaining 2-4+ life per swing is huge. Trying 2 of these at the moment and they seem promising.
I never really liked the Burn match-up to begin with to be honest (even regular UR Delver didn't have an amazing time with it) because you inherently took a ton of damage of your own lands. I think if we want to beat Burn specifically, we should max Dragon's Claw in the board.
When Max Walsh lost, it was pretty heartbreaking, but I guess we stay somewhat under the radar. He had some pretty awful draws coupled with the fact the opponent had a Molten Rain for his Steam Vents.
Speaking of the GP, I think we are favored vs Twin based on my testing (and the reason Twin was basically unplayable last format was because Delver was literally everywhere) and a LOT more people will probably be playing it after the Pro Tour and the Grand Prix. After Abzan more, it is a bit tougher and going back to Swiftspear might not be so bad. I have been playing UR lately though because of the damage from lands issue though.
I literally logged in just to say the same thing, I remember during coverage they 'read off' a lot of the cards. ( <3 4 thought scour) but never talked about the whole list. Can we piece it together?
Yea he was always the "back-up" feature for the others. Interesting list though now that I got some time to sit and look at it. Is Deprive that good of a counter that the other cards are not needed (For example Remand and Mana Leak)? When I played the deck, you operated optimally around 3 lands and I don't know if bouncing one early on is that much of a drawback or not.
4 Deprive? Whoa O_o
and that's a lot of Delve cards too, dang.
I am kind of surprised at this. Why not 4 Leaks instead? Easier to cast, doesn't hurt your mana, and your probably wanting to win before the pay 3 cost of leak would matter anyways.
HI all, Max here, couple of notes on cards you guys brought up and changes I would make post GP
Deprive - started as a 2 of, quickly made it up to 4, with 18 lands the drawback isnt huge and you are usually cantripping/playing a creatures/bolting things in turns 1-3. The list I ran leans slightly more controlling and having hard counters is extremely helpful vs mana leak or remand.
Changes post GP
Main
-1 Sleight of hand +1 Burst lightning - Felt like it needed 1 more 1 mana removal spell, lightning is great late game as well agaisnt stuff like wilt leaf leige, deciever exarch and smiter
SB
-1 Outpost Seige - this was a holdover against abzan from a version pre blood moon
-1 combust - the twin matchup is already great
+1 Spellskite
+1 vandalblast
All in all great tournament, the last round was a bit frustrating but burn is by FAR the decks worst matchup. In test twin and infect where excellent, affinity solid and abzan slightly favored. Burn is really rough, didn't get much of a chance to test against bloom combo as I could not find a good pilot to test against. If anyone has questions about card choices/the list please let me know.
HI all, Max here, couple of notes on cards you guys brought up and changes I would make post GP
Deprive - started as a 2 of, quickly made it up to 4, with 18 lands the drawback isnt huge and you are usually cantripping/playing a creatures/bolting things in turns 1-3. The list I ran leans slightly more controlling and having hard counters is extremely helpful vs mana leak or remand.
Changes post GP
Main
-1 Sleight of hand +1 Burst lightning - Felt like it needed 1 more 1 mana removal spell, lightning is great late game as well agaisnt stuff like wilt leaf leige, deciever exarch and smiter
SB
-1 Outpost Seige - this was a holdover against abzan from a version pre blood moon
-1 combust - the twin matchup is already great
+1 Spellskite
+1 vandalblast
All in all great tournament, the last round was a bit frustrating but burn is by FAR the decks worst matchup. In test twin and infect where excellent, affinity solid and abzan slightly favored. Burn is really rough, didn't get much of a chance to test against bloom combo as I could not find a good pilot to test against. If anyone has questions about card choices/the list please let me know.
Hey Max, welcome! Congrats on your 22nd place finish! That loss against Burn was a heartbreaking one and I knew it would be tough the moment I saw Burn on the other side from you. That match-up as well as Aggro Zoo (and to some extent Abzan, but it seems like your list would be better vs Abzan than mine) have been my toughest match-ups.
I have a few questions I'd like to ask regarding your tournament experience and your list:
1. What were your match-ups through out both days and records against the decks you played vs?
2. How was the manabase for you? We were discussing Darkslick Shores vs Sulfur Falls for example and you included both in your list.
3. I assume the Electrolyzes were for the heavy presence of Lingering Souls? How did you find those as a 3 of?
4. Did you ever find the Murderous Cuts or Tasigurs dead? I was testing a delve package very similar to yours and too often when I didn't have Thought Scour, those cards would be difficult to cast.
This is quite a few questions, but those are the ones that came to mind when reviewing your list!
@ GrixisLoverboy What do you cut? the main is pretty tight right now and your first fetch is usually for vents as red tends to be more important than black in the first few turns unless you are going for t2 tasigur. The 1x thoughtseize in the board is a general anti combo card and you want the ability to take twin/prime time, although I could see testing inquisition in its slot.
@ L0rdAceX
Thank you. The abzan matchup is really helped by cuts/deprive, you are definitely the control deck against them.
1) 5-0-1 against twin, 2-1 against affintiy, 1-0 against abzan, 2-0 against infect, 0-2 against burn. and something I forget.
2) Really liked the manabase, had a blood crypt which I missed slightly that I cut for a swamp so I could run blood mood, I think the trade off is worth it. Darkslick is great as a free black source and good against choke. Falls is solid, wish there was a u/r version of darkslick but it gets the job done.
3) yes, loved electrolyze and felt 3 was the perfect number, like i said in the original post one of my favorite bits about the deck is how easy it is to switch between controlling and aggressive roles, electrolyze helps make the control portion of the deck much stronger. Also a house against affinity.
4) Not really, they tend to be turn 3+ cards for me, even when you dont draw thoughtscour there are 13 other one mana instants/sorceries plus fetches. I could see shifting to 2 terminate/2 murderous cut if you where worried.
Honestly, I love deprive but thought 4 seemed insane, then I considered my abzan matchup and realized... Well, that could be a very serious way to stop those siege rhinos from stabilizing them which is honestly my problem. Love it. I'll be testing more. I am glad you did so well. I genuinely believe that this deck is a thing.
As the obvious bane of our existence is burn, I think that we should really figure the matchup out. It is everywhere obviously... I have found that just countering spells and racing them worked best but even that was really still way, in their favor.. How would you deal with them/modified your list max? Obviously not playing in a big tournament but rather dailies/small paper tournaments is a very different thing and increases the amount of burn matchups. I tried dragon's claw and found I don't have enough red to really make them count. I want to try sun droplets too as with my normal counter method. It would help some at least, but it is very slow with ~2 life max each go around. It will at least make skullcrack less backbreaking. (My friend suggested whip of erebos and I was just desperate enough to consider it lol... It would be rough on our mana though...) Bloodchief ascension seems too easy to disrupt and could potentially be to slow if we get a heavy control filled hand.
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This is pretty much the same problem I've been having. I think we might have to use a "go under" approach in this match-up (and we will probably have to build accordingly) because we can't effectively trade 1 for 1 because their threats are simply better. A simple Scavenging Ooze is a nightmare if you are holding Snapcaster etc.
Modern UMerfolkU
Legacy UMerfolkU
Standard XWhatever's GoodX
Burn 2-0
Twin 2-0
Burn 0-2
Merfolk 2-1
Everything felt good, except I'm starting to think I will replace my Shattering Sprees with some kind of life gain. Burn is always popular and I think it's actually a harder matchup than Affinity, especially my build that has Forked Bolts and Darkblast to kill all the dudes efficiently.
The new sideboard will look something like this:
1 Combust
1 Counterflux
1 Darkblast
2 Deathmark
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Dispel
2 Magma Spray
2 Rakdos Charm
I'm also toying with the idea of trying Trigon of Mending instead of the claw, or maybe a 1/1 split. It is less mana efficient, because you have to pay 2 each time, but it is a guaranteed 9 life, which is often as much if not more than the claw would provide. Something to consider.
Also, although I didn't get to cast it, I did have Rakdos Charm in hand against the Merfolk player as a potential Price of Progress level burn spell. He was playing Master of Waves, and if he had tried to play a couple lords on the turn before I was going to win to try and alpha-strike I could have burned him for at least 6. The fact that it also hits Æther Vial was the reason I brought 1 in. Would have been hilarious.
Also, 3-1 is still really great for a deck we are still figuring out! I keep getting matched up against burn and junk so I am not doing nearly as well as you! 3-1 is my best (paper player).
My aim is to play strictly wizard creatures - my LGS has modern as "Invitational qualifiers" and I have already won my invite playing Twin... So as to avoid sniping a second invite playing my best deck I am trying to put together a slightly handicapped but still competitive list so I won't feel bad if I win again. Part of my handicap is to only play wizard creatures... So young peezy and tasigur are out of the question. I may even cut the Spellskite from the board since its a horror :/. Anyways... Thanks!
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Steam Vents
2 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
4 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Dark Confidant
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Snare
3 Remand
1 Mana Leak
1 Terminate
1 Electrolyze
2 Cryptic Command
1 Dispel
1 Spell Pierce
1 Vandalblast
2 Deathmark
2 Countersquall
1 Terminate
1 Spellskite
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Molten Rain
Hope you guys are ready for Developing Competitive or even Tier 2!
It was only a matter of time, really. Been playing this online for a while now and it is certainly able to hang with the big players of the format. I don't even remember the last time I went less than 3-1 in a Daily. I'll miss living in the shadows though.
Now I'm off to go play more Death Cloud until that catches on...
Modern UMerfolkU
Legacy UMerfolkU
Standard XWhatever's GoodX
However, I think I found another answer: Vampiric Link. We need to protect a guy beating down to win anyway, and gaining 2-4+ life per swing is huge. Trying 2 of these at the moment and they seem promising.
When Max Walsh lost, it was pretty heartbreaking, but I guess we stay somewhat under the radar. He had some pretty awful draws coupled with the fact the opponent had a Molten Rain for his Steam Vents.
Speaking of the GP, I think we are favored vs Twin based on my testing (and the reason Twin was basically unplayable last format was because Delver was literally everywhere) and a LOT more people will probably be playing it after the Pro Tour and the Grand Prix. After Abzan more, it is a bit tougher and going back to Swiftspear might not be so bad. I have been playing UR lately though because of the damage from lands issue though.
Modern UMerfolkU
Legacy UMerfolkU
Standard XWhatever's GoodX
Scroll down. It's on that page.
and that's a lot of Delve cards too, dang.
Modern UMerfolkU
Legacy UMerfolkU
Standard XWhatever's GoodX
Spirits
Modern UMerfolkU
Legacy UMerfolkU
Standard XWhatever's GoodX
I am kind of surprised at this. Why not 4 Leaks instead? Easier to cast, doesn't hurt your mana, and your probably wanting to win before the pay 3 cost of leak would matter anyways.
Grand Arbiter
Omnath
Skittles
Deprive - started as a 2 of, quickly made it up to 4, with 18 lands the drawback isnt huge and you are usually cantripping/playing a creatures/bolting things in turns 1-3. The list I ran leans slightly more controlling and having hard counters is extremely helpful vs mana leak or remand.
Changes post GP
Main
-1 Sleight of hand +1 Burst lightning - Felt like it needed 1 more 1 mana removal spell, lightning is great late game as well agaisnt stuff like wilt leaf leige, deciever exarch and smiter
SB
-1 Outpost Seige - this was a holdover against abzan from a version pre blood moon
-1 combust - the twin matchup is already great
+1 Spellskite
+1 vandalblast
All in all great tournament, the last round was a bit frustrating but burn is by FAR the decks worst matchup. In test twin and infect where excellent, affinity solid and abzan slightly favored. Burn is really rough, didn't get much of a chance to test against bloom combo as I could not find a good pilot to test against. If anyone has questions about card choices/the list please let me know.
I only have one question: why no inquisition? It seems to me like it is a good fit, and playing it main deck probably makes the burn match up better?
Hey Max, welcome! Congrats on your 22nd place finish! That loss against Burn was a heartbreaking one and I knew it would be tough the moment I saw Burn on the other side from you. That match-up as well as Aggro Zoo (and to some extent Abzan, but it seems like your list would be better vs Abzan than mine) have been my toughest match-ups.
I have a few questions I'd like to ask regarding your tournament experience and your list:
1. What were your match-ups through out both days and records against the decks you played vs?
2. How was the manabase for you? We were discussing Darkslick Shores vs Sulfur Falls for example and you included both in your list.
3. I assume the Electrolyzes were for the heavy presence of Lingering Souls? How did you find those as a 3 of?
4. Did you ever find the Murderous Cuts or Tasigurs dead? I was testing a delve package very similar to yours and too often when I didn't have Thought Scour, those cards would be difficult to cast.
This is quite a few questions, but those are the ones that came to mind when reviewing your list!
Modern UMerfolkU
Legacy UMerfolkU
Standard XWhatever's GoodX
@ GrixisLoverboy What do you cut? the main is pretty tight right now and your first fetch is usually for vents as red tends to be more important than black in the first few turns unless you are going for t2 tasigur. The 1x thoughtseize in the board is a general anti combo card and you want the ability to take twin/prime time, although I could see testing inquisition in its slot.
@ L0rdAceX
Thank you. The abzan matchup is really helped by cuts/deprive, you are definitely the control deck against them.
1) 5-0-1 against twin, 2-1 against affintiy, 1-0 against abzan, 2-0 against infect, 0-2 against burn. and something I forget.
2) Really liked the manabase, had a blood crypt which I missed slightly that I cut for a swamp so I could run blood mood, I think the trade off is worth it. Darkslick is great as a free black source and good against choke. Falls is solid, wish there was a u/r version of darkslick but it gets the job done.
3) yes, loved electrolyze and felt 3 was the perfect number, like i said in the original post one of my favorite bits about the deck is how easy it is to switch between controlling and aggressive roles, electrolyze helps make the control portion of the deck much stronger. Also a house against affinity.
4) Not really, they tend to be turn 3+ cards for me, even when you dont draw thoughtscour there are 13 other one mana instants/sorceries plus fetches. I could see shifting to 2 terminate/2 murderous cut if you where worried.
As the obvious bane of our existence is burn, I think that we should really figure the matchup out. It is everywhere obviously... I have found that just countering spells and racing them worked best but even that was really still way, in their favor.. How would you deal with them/modified your list max? Obviously not playing in a big tournament but rather dailies/small paper tournaments is a very different thing and increases the amount of burn matchups. I tried dragon's claw and found I don't have enough red to really make them count. I want to try sun droplets too as with my normal counter method. It would help some at least, but it is very slow with ~2 life max each go around. It will at least make skullcrack less backbreaking. (My friend suggested whip of erebos and I was just desperate enough to consider it lol... It would be rough on our mana though...) Bloodchief ascension seems too easy to disrupt and could potentially be to slow if we get a heavy control filled hand.