BTL does deserve some testing I think. I can't see it as more than a two-of since it costs 5, but being able to grab pretty much anything is very powerful, and it does play to the silver bullet nature of the deck.
I also agree with Aranthar that if you Gifts for it, that it will be a "guaranteed graveyard" since it would let you grab whatever you wanted anyways. That alone is powerful because you can greatly influence the cards you get from Gifts.
Plus if they're feeling ballsy EOT Gifts -> BTL curves out nicely.
----
How do you guys feel about Lumbering Falls? I'm currently running a Collonade and Wildwood for manlands, and I'm not sure if Falls can replace either. Collande has a two turn shorter clock (from 20) and the colors, cheaper activation, and reach from Wildwood seem to be more important than Hexproof.
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
It has some cool interactions going on, but I would be concerned about dying before anything gets going. One Sultai Charm and one Abrupt Decay as the only early disruption seems insufficient. And while Panglacial Wurm is a cool card design, it is not very good considering you'll need 8 mana (7+1 for the fetchland that lets you cast him out of the deck.)
I do think the creature-based strategy has some neat synergies and could be a fun deck. But without more disruption, I'm concerned too many games would end before the fun begins.
to be fair, the deck does run 13 ramp cards plus 2 garruks. It's not that hard to put together a t3 Glen Elendra with the ability to use it. I'm assuming we don't know what he had to face either. I could easily see him spike feeder/archangel people turn 4. If he drew well which I'm assuming happened, I can see this list easily out grinding the fair decks and be controlly enough to stop combo. Twin is only really hard g1, then they usually side out some of the combo. How does twin beat an elderscale wurm without dropping 3+ cards to do so?
t1: land, mana guy
t2: land, mana guy, sprawl
t3: play anything 5-6 mana
with that much ramp, any turn 4+ fetches turn into an instant speed 9/5 trampler, which no one would ever see coming.
Similar card as Iona, Shield of Emeria. Same CMC but easier to hardcast, and is potentially a faster clock (22 in 2 turns, vs Iona's 21 in 3), plus it can't be chumped by Spirit tokens. However, it does get chumped by Deceiver Exarch, Kitchen Finks, Noble Hierarch, etc unlike Iona. (Don't misread the card like I did... it prevents your opponents from blocking WITH even CMC creatures).
Winnower generally seems to be worse than Iona at protecting itself from removal. It won't turn off Path to Exile, Liliana of the Veil, Murderous Cut, or Karn. However, the Winnower does turn off both Terminate and Cryptic Command at the same time, something that Iona couldn't do, and could be applicable against Grixis (though I believe our matchup there is already decent).
I think Winnower really shines against Scapeshift, which has been a problem matchup, where Iona could either shut down Scapeshift or protect itself by shutting down Cryptic Command. Winnower does both, and also takes out Obstinate Baloth and Titans post-board and their counterspells. Winnower also hits a lot from Bloom (stops Pacts, Hive Mind, Primeval Titan, and Summer Bloom)
I would play Winnower vs. Scapeshift, Bloom, and maybe Grixis.
I would play Iona vs. Jund, Burn, BW Tokens, and maybe Twin (I personally dislike Iona vs. Twin, but I think other people have had success).
From theorycrafting, it seems that Winnower could improve our Scapeshift and Bloom matchups, which were previously quite difficult (though I haven't played much vs. Bloom so not sure on that one). Provided we can find sideboard space for it, it gives us something to aim for in those matchups, rather than trying to disrupt them and praying they don't topdeck something scary while we scramble to find threats to close out the game. Doesn't really improve the Tron or Living End matchups, but counterspells go a long way to helping those matchups.
-------------------------------
I'm excited for Bring to Light as a 1-of, but it might not be as strong as people think to Gifts for. If you want a specific effect, you might not be able to Gifts for Effect1/Effect2/Bring to Light/X, because if they give you Bring to Light, there may be no more of the desired effects left in the deck (for example, many people run just 1 sweeper). I still think it's a potentially fantastic card by itself, and am looking forward to testing it.
-------------------------------
How do you guys feel about Shambling Vent? Does the lifelink merit a 1/2 split with Tar Pit, maybe?
I think I'll have to just test winnower and see, its one of the better prospects I can remember since seeing sultai charm to actually contributing to the deck.
The odd thing about gathering a list of pro's and cons (which I would do if people wanted), is that it seems like the best second fattie after whichever one is actually more applicable to the deck you're gaming against. I mean, I'd rather have this after norn against affinity, I'd rather have this against tron over iona after terastadon, I'd rather have this against burn after iona. This is good for when you draw the right fattie against a deck with no discard outlet, the same way sometimes its beneficial to have a second rites to dump into your yard in fast-gifts match ups like burn or infect. To say nothing about being the best target against stuff like scapeshift or I guess grixis.
It also closes out games very fast--akin to grave titan, which is cool. I do occasionally terastadon kill people by blowing up my own lands or spirit tokens and swinging for 18 to close out fast games.
I like the idea of winnower. He seems interesting but 9 mana is a crazy investment outside gifts.
Shambling vent on the other hand is terrible. 3 mana for a 2/3 lifelink? no thanks. No evasion and a crappy body. I would much rather the ug one. Even that one seems iffy. The original Manlands so far are hands down better. I don't get why wizards is so timid with these.
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Current Decks:
Modern: BG eldrazi midrange BWG Abzan value evolution BUG BUG Midrange
I actually like Shambling Vent much more than Lumbering Falls for our deck. I think the lifelink is more important to us than hexproof, since we are usually using manlands to put away the game after we've established some control already. There are so many games where I want to play conservatively because I don't want to lose to topdeck burn, and the 2 lifelink damage would have been useful. I definitely could be wrong about these new manlands, though. I think everyone can agree that Creeping Tar Pit is still best right now.
Speaking of new reanimation targets, what do you guys think of Greenwarden of Murasa? I don't really think it is playable over anything else we are currently have available, but a double Regrowth stapled to a body seems pretty decent. (Gifts + Rites and then grabbing Gifts back is just delicious value).
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
Speaking of new reanimation targets, what do you guys think of Greenwarden of Murasa? I don't really think it is playable over anything else we are currently have available, but a double Regrowth stapled to a body seems pretty decent. (Gifts + Rites and then grabbing Gifts back is just delicious value).
Greenwarden could do something for the super value gifts decks--like titan, I like that its easily castable without any shenanigans. I don't really love the body, but I could see it being a great BGx mirror card.
---
Jury is out for me on the manlands--I really think vent could have been a 2/4 and been instantly included, but it really skirts an edge as it stands. BW is a good color for a manland.
I do like tarpit the best though because its always gonna be 3 damage, and can always hit planeswalkers for a reasonable amount. Both die to the same stiff breeze, the only 2 damage effect in the format that sees play is lavamancer--which isn't that common.
I don't like lumbering falls or shambling vent over tar pit or colonnade, or even stirring wildwood. Hexproof doesn't really matter that much when they can block, and a 2/3 just isn't relevant when it's so slow.
I like the idea of winnower vs scapeshift. Finding SB slots will be tough and it's a fairly narrow card vs say like Terastodon which is worse against scapeshift, but is better against other decks.
Greenwarden is pretty cool and possibly worth exploring. It feels like Sun Titan in a way, where you build your deck with that card being your grind option vs jund, grixis, abzan.
Bring to Light I think is cool, but hard to fit in the deck. 5 mana is a lot and gifts may have lots of one ofs, but they're very redundant so it's not as tutorable as it looks. it really is a sorta "control-combo" deck by getting soft-lock "packages" of 2-3 card combos. Tutoring for one specific card might not be what we're looking for. I'm gonna try it but I dont have high hopes. Now it could spawn an entirely different 4color deck based just 4 Bring to Light and nothing but one of bullet cards. That sounds fun to me too.
I'll probably give Greenwarden a shot over titan sometime and then come back with my findings. Both are really great against fair decks, but Titan does end the game faster while Greenwarden gets better the longer the game goes. I think he also does better in a double rites list, since the death trigger is a may you can Rites him a second time for even more Regrowths. I think I'm getting carried away.
I do agree with your thoughts on the Vent. 2/4 would have been perfect, but as it stands I don't think he really nudges anything out. On the positive side, the fair decks that run Bolts are also decks you can bring in Loam against, so even if they bolt him you can get him back. I think I will stick with Wildwood and Collonade for now. Fingers crossed for the BG one now.
The only other 2 damage effect is from K. Command, and to a lesser extent Electrolyze but that seems to have faded in popularity.
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
Speaking of new reanimation targets, what do you guys think of Greenwarden of Murasa? I don't really think it is playable over anything else we are currently have available, but a double Regrowth stapled to a body seems pretty decent. (Gifts + Rites and then grabbing Gifts back is just delicious value).
Greenwarden could do something for the super value gifts decks--like titan, I like that its easily castable without any shenanigans. I don't really love the body, but I could see it being a great BGx mirror card.
---
Jury is out for me on the manlands--I really think vent could have been a 2/4 and been instantly included, but it really skirts an edge as it stands. BW is a good color for a manland.
I do like tarpit the best though because its always gonna be 3 damage, and can always hit planeswalkers for a reasonable amount. Both die to the same stiff breeze, the only 2 damage effect in the format that sees play is lavamancer--which isn't that common.
I would keep in the IoK and the Timely. Your biggest problems are Cranial Plating and Arcbound Ravager - everything else is reasonably "fair" but those can kill you instantly. IoK answers both.
A favorite combo of mine is Haakon, Stromgald Scourge and Nameless Inversion. It's probably (almost certainly?) not good enough for serious consideration, but for FNM kicks, does anyone think it could work in an Esper Gifts deck? Maybe in the side-board? It would allow one to use them as one-of's and not go the whole Daarth Knights route (which is a pretty awful deck).
It's primarily for Merfolk, but it could work against anything that runs primarily 1-3 toughness critters.
So, I recently decided to try Gifts. I don't get to play Modern often, so I wanted a deck I can build cheap for events (like a GP I have coming up) and I realized that with all the EDH items I have, Gifts might be a good way to go. However, I wanted to do something a little different to optimize to my playstyle. I want to use Deadeye Navigator to abuse different ETB effects like Siege Rhino or Venser, Shaper Savant.
I haven't really done much testing (just goldfishing and a few matches against a friend's rogue deck), but some things I have been considering:
- Massacre Wurm : Another Navigator partner that can "Wrath" like Elesh Norn
- Sideboard slots : Sun Titan might come out, and that'll leave 2 spaces
- Thoughtseize / IoK : more hand disruption than just Raven's Crime (maybe these are the sideboard slots since I have Tidehollow Sculler)
- Velocity : I have been tooling around with some combination of Sultai Charm, Thirst for Knowledge, Sphinx's Revelation (probably in the side), and Blue Sun's Zenith (original version was a combo kill with USZ and infinite mana with Deadeye, Deceiver Exarch/Pestermite, Nykthos)
- Evacuation : instant speed blue wrath, which can create a soft lock with Eternal Witness. Should probably be a Damnation, but I do not own one.
What do you guys think? Is there some viability to this? Or do you think I should just go for the traditional Elesh Norn build? I have nothing against that build, but I just figured I had to try this out.
@pzbw7z, Gifts is pretty much 4 Gifts Ungiven and 71 flex slots, so if it is something you want to run (especially at FNM for fun) then I say go for it.
@NerdPop140 To me it seems a little durdly, but I say give it a spin. The best way to find out which cards are working or not is to take it for a couple spins to help tweak it. There was a list a few months ago that 4-0'd a daily abusing ETB and Venser along with Gifts, so it has been done before.
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
@Acissathar, I think my big problem with my build is that Deadeye does not have an immediate effect like Norn does. There are very few scenarios I can think of where I would want to get Rites for Navigator at the earliest moment, since I would want at least two mana up. On a side note, is there room for Moorland Haunt/Misthollow Griffin in a Norn build?
I also agree with Aranthar that if you Gifts for it, that it will be a "guaranteed graveyard" since it would let you grab whatever you wanted anyways. That alone is powerful because you can greatly influence the cards you get from Gifts.
Plus if they're feeling ballsy EOT Gifts -> BTL curves out nicely.
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How do you guys feel about Lumbering Falls? I'm currently running a Collonade and Wildwood for manlands, and I'm not sure if Falls can replace either. Collande has a two turn shorter clock (from 20) and the colors, cheaper activation, and reach from Wildwood seem to be more important than Hexproof.
It has some cool interactions going on, but I would be concerned about dying before anything gets going. One Sultai Charm and one Abrupt Decay as the only early disruption seems insufficient. And while Panglacial Wurm is a cool card design, it is not very good considering you'll need 8 mana (7+1 for the fetchland that lets you cast him out of the deck.)
I do think the creature-based strategy has some neat synergies and could be a fun deck. But without more disruption, I'm concerned too many games would end before the fun begins.
Check out Odds//Ends - My articles on Quirky Cards and Oddball Builds
Long-time PucaTrade member and sometime author. Send me cards!
Currently playing Knight of the Reliquary - Retreat to Coralhelm Combo
t1: land, mana guy
t2: land, mana guy, sprawl
t3: play anything 5-6 mana
with that much ramp, any turn 4+ fetches turn into an instant speed 9/5 trampler, which no one would ever see coming.
Modern: BG eldrazi midrange
BWG Abzan value evolution
BUG BUG Midrange
Tiny Leaders: BW Athreos Zombies
Commander: BG Gitrog Monster
Potential lock fattie all-star? Discuss!
Similar card as Iona, Shield of Emeria. Same CMC but easier to hardcast, and is potentially a faster clock (22 in 2 turns, vs Iona's 21 in 3), plus it can't be chumped by Spirit tokens. However, it does get chumped by Deceiver Exarch, Kitchen Finks, Noble Hierarch, etc unlike Iona. (Don't misread the card like I did... it prevents your opponents from blocking WITH even CMC creatures).
Winnower generally seems to be worse than Iona at protecting itself from removal. It won't turn off Path to Exile, Liliana of the Veil, Murderous Cut, or Karn. However, the Winnower does turn off both Terminate and Cryptic Command at the same time, something that Iona couldn't do, and could be applicable against Grixis (though I believe our matchup there is already decent).
I think Winnower really shines against Scapeshift, which has been a problem matchup, where Iona could either shut down Scapeshift or protect itself by shutting down Cryptic Command. Winnower does both, and also takes out Obstinate Baloth and Titans post-board and their counterspells. Winnower also hits a lot from Bloom (stops Pacts, Hive Mind, Primeval Titan, and Summer Bloom)
I would play Winnower vs. Scapeshift, Bloom, and maybe Grixis.
I would play Iona vs. Jund, Burn, BW Tokens, and maybe Twin (I personally dislike Iona vs. Twin, but I think other people have had success).
From theorycrafting, it seems that Winnower could improve our Scapeshift and Bloom matchups, which were previously quite difficult (though I haven't played much vs. Bloom so not sure on that one). Provided we can find sideboard space for it, it gives us something to aim for in those matchups, rather than trying to disrupt them and praying they don't topdeck something scary while we scramble to find threats to close out the game. Doesn't really improve the Tron or Living End matchups, but counterspells go a long way to helping those matchups.
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I'm excited for Bring to Light as a 1-of, but it might not be as strong as people think to Gifts for. If you want a specific effect, you might not be able to Gifts for Effect1/Effect2/Bring to Light/X, because if they give you Bring to Light, there may be no more of the desired effects left in the deck (for example, many people run just 1 sweeper). I still think it's a potentially fantastic card by itself, and am looking forward to testing it.
-------------------------------
How do you guys feel about Shambling Vent? Does the lifelink merit a 1/2 split with Tar Pit, maybe?
The odd thing about gathering a list of pro's and cons (which I would do if people wanted), is that it seems like the best second fattie after whichever one is actually more applicable to the deck you're gaming against. I mean, I'd rather have this after norn against affinity, I'd rather have this against tron over iona after terastadon, I'd rather have this against burn after iona. This is good for when you draw the right fattie against a deck with no discard outlet, the same way sometimes its beneficial to have a second rites to dump into your yard in fast-gifts match ups like burn or infect. To say nothing about being the best target against stuff like scapeshift or I guess grixis.
It also closes out games very fast--akin to grave titan, which is cool. I do occasionally terastadon kill people by blowing up my own lands or spirit tokens and swinging for 18 to close out fast games.
Shambling vent on the other hand is terrible. 3 mana for a 2/3 lifelink? no thanks. No evasion and a crappy body. I would much rather the ug one. Even that one seems iffy. The original Manlands so far are hands down better. I don't get why wizards is so timid with these.
Modern: BG eldrazi midrange
BWG Abzan value evolution
BUG BUG Midrange
Tiny Leaders: BW Athreos Zombies
Commander: BG Gitrog Monster
Greenwarden could do something for the super value gifts decks--like titan, I like that its easily castable without any shenanigans. I don't really love the body, but I could see it being a great BGx mirror card.
---
Jury is out for me on the manlands--I really think vent could have been a 2/4 and been instantly included, but it really skirts an edge as it stands. BW is a good color for a manland.
I do like tarpit the best though because its always gonna be 3 damage, and can always hit planeswalkers for a reasonable amount. Both die to the same stiff breeze, the only 2 damage effect in the format that sees play is lavamancer--which isn't that common.
I like the idea of winnower vs scapeshift. Finding SB slots will be tough and it's a fairly narrow card vs say like Terastodon which is worse against scapeshift, but is better against other decks.
Greenwarden is pretty cool and possibly worth exploring. It feels like Sun Titan in a way, where you build your deck with that card being your grind option vs jund, grixis, abzan.
Bring to Light I think is cool, but hard to fit in the deck. 5 mana is a lot and gifts may have lots of one ofs, but they're very redundant so it's not as tutorable as it looks. it really is a sorta "control-combo" deck by getting soft-lock "packages" of 2-3 card combos. Tutoring for one specific card might not be what we're looking for. I'm gonna try it but I dont have high hopes. Now it could spawn an entirely different 4color deck based just 4 Bring to Light and nothing but one of bullet cards. That sounds fun to me too.
I do agree with your thoughts on the Vent. 2/4 would have been perfect, but as it stands I don't think he really nudges anything out. On the positive side, the fair decks that run Bolts are also decks you can bring in Loam against, so even if they bolt him you can get him back. I think I will stick with Wildwood and Collonade for now. Fingers crossed for the BG one now.
The only other 2 damage effect is from K. Command, and to a lesser extent Electrolyze but that seems to have faded in popularity.
Kolaghan's Command has been appearing a lot recently.
Check out Odds//Ends - My articles on Quirky Cards and Oddball Builds
Long-time PucaTrade member and sometime author. Send me cards!
Currently playing Knight of the Reliquary - Retreat to Coralhelm Combo
Check out Odds//Ends - My articles on Quirky Cards and Oddball Builds
Long-time PucaTrade member and sometime author. Send me cards!
Currently playing Knight of the Reliquary - Retreat to Coralhelm Combo
Against Robots, the game is usually settled within 4 turns. IoK will be critical to not losing in those first turns.
Check out Odds//Ends - My articles on Quirky Cards and Oddball Builds
Long-time PucaTrade member and sometime author. Send me cards!
Currently playing Knight of the Reliquary - Retreat to Coralhelm Combo
It's primarily for Merfolk, but it could work against anything that runs primarily 1-3 toughness critters.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Here is my GPS Gifts
1x Alchemist's Refuge
1x Breeding Pool
1x Calciform Pools
1x Flooded Grove
3x Flooded Strand
1x Forest
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Godless Shrine
1x Hallowed Fountain
3x Island
1x Mystic Gate
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
3x Polluted Delta
1x Sunken Ruins
1x Swamp
1x Temple Garden
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Watery Grave
Instant (18)
2x Cryptic Command
1x Dismember
3x Gifts Ungiven
3x Mana Leak
3x Path to Exile
3x Remand
2x Sultai Charm
1x Evacuation
1x Day of Judgment
1x Life from the Loam
1x Supreme Verdict
2x Unburial Rites
1x Wrath of God
1x Raven's Crime
Creature (9)
1x Deadeye Navigator
1x Eternal Witness
1x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1x Siege Rhino
1x Snapcaster Mage
3x Sylvan Caryatid
1x Tidehollow Sculler
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
1x Detention Sphere
1x Echoing Truth
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2x Far / Away
2x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
2x Negate
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Sun Titan
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Terastodon
I haven't really done much testing (just goldfishing and a few matches against a friend's rogue deck), but some things I have been considering:
- Massacre Wurm : Another Navigator partner that can "Wrath" like Elesh Norn
- Sideboard slots : Sun Titan might come out, and that'll leave 2 spaces
- Thoughtseize / IoK : more hand disruption than just Raven's Crime (maybe these are the sideboard slots since I have Tidehollow Sculler)
- Velocity : I have been tooling around with some combination of Sultai Charm, Thirst for Knowledge, Sphinx's Revelation (probably in the side), and Blue Sun's Zenith (original version was a combo kill with USZ and infinite mana with Deadeye, Deceiver Exarch/Pestermite, Nykthos)
- Evacuation : instant speed blue wrath, which can create a soft lock with Eternal Witness. Should probably be a Damnation, but I do not own one.
What do you guys think? Is there some viability to this? Or do you think I should just go for the traditional Elesh Norn build? I have nothing against that build, but I just figured I had to try this out.
@NerdPop140 To me it seems a little durdly, but I say give it a spin. The best way to find out which cards are working or not is to take it for a couple spins to help tweak it. There was a list a few months ago that 4-0'd a daily abusing ETB and Venser along with Gifts, so it has been done before.
@NerdPop140 Riptide Laboratory is a plan B possibility with Venser. It's also much fun with Snapcaster.Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
@pzbw7z, Riptide Laboratory is not Modern legal.