oRS, I think if you wanted to write a part 2 of the primer focusing on in-depth strategy and side boarding vs. top tier decks, like Abzan and Splinter Twin, that would be really interesting and cool!
FWIW I tried to put together your list in paper with some slight changes due to card availability:
-1 Liliana
-1 Marsh Flats
+1 Esper Charm
+1 Tar Pit
SB
-4 Leyline
-1 Rhino
+1 Damnation
+1 Wrath of God
+1 Supreme Verdict
+1 Thragtusk
+1 Negate
I played a friend at FNM who was running Abzan and I sided in the sweeper package and the creature/artifact package (dicard went out and Iona/Elesh). It worked great in G2, where I wrathed him for insane value after he overextended and then proceeded to drop a haymaker every turn henceforth. He got me though game 3 with multiple Fulminators, Garruks, and Wildwood beatdowns for the win in a close one. I'm thinking now that I should have sided out the Leaks as well and just kept the fatties in as extra bodies (and a 1 shot wrath effect with Norn vs. his souls). IDK.
I'm looking forward to continued practice, this deck is hard.
So I've played 4c gifts before but found the life loss to be a little too significant, and this is my current Esper build http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/31-03-15-esper-gifts/, but as always the green for abrupt decay, a few Rhino's and the loam lock tempts me, but I'm not quite sure I need it, especially with the amount of twin, grixis/american control and burn I see. Thoughts on the list or what to cut for green would be appreciated.
Some quick tips from the top of my head =) Green is really valuable imo, ive tried esper, grixis and uwr+b and all have felt weaker than the junk version. But im a bit biased on Loam as a landsplayer, cant live without it. I'd cut these out:
1x Cryptic Command (liliana+cryptic, nono, you'll take too much damage trying to keep things like abrupt up, while having triple blue and double black)
1x Deprive (not on our manabase imo)
1x Go for the Throat (affinity, its a good hard removal but when its bad its really really bad, there are better options imo)
1x Murderous Cut (its kinda ok, can keep 1 in for utility, but more paths is better imo, gifting for 1cc removal is rare as it is)
1x Remand (can keep 2 in the deck, but i prefer leaks/negates or just spell pierce if you need to deal with t3 karns and stuff, better to have dispel/negate in the board if you're up against patriot or uwx controls and want to fight counter wars)
1x Thought Scour (don't need it)
1x Detention Sphere (better to play definite answers like maelstrom pulse or even utter end imo, don't like enchant-exile at all, cryptic counter-bounce can 3:1 you sooo hard for example)
1x Spreading Seas (no need at all, aim for loam/tec/ghost locks instead, or just board fulminators)
1x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver (too slow, it was cool in fabianos bug list, but honestly it was never the haymaker of the deck, 4th lily or a narset is better every day of the week)
1x Geist of Saint Traft (boardcard vs. tron and the likes, too fragile in main imo, depends a bit on the meta, i've tried geist with swords in main, it was ok but never on par with other threats)
1x Sun Titan (would suggest gravetitan instead)
1x Spellskite (fully possible to maindeck it, but it falls short vs. some matchups)
1x Tasigur, the Golden Fang (i'm all aboard with 1of tasigur being good as a value-gift pile, and he's ok to draw too, but i feel the activate is downvalued a lot with loam, ravens crime, iok, thoughtseize etc, more so than classic junk/jund)
Let's say you keep Tasigur and Skite mainboard, i'd add:
2x Path to Exile
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Raven's Crime
1x Life from the Loam
1x Elesh Norn
1x Iona
2x Lingering Souls
Then i'd swap something out for a Gavony township, loam piles with lingering, gavony/tec/crime or other valuecards to complement what you draw is really powerful imo, combining the discard engine with lingering+inevitability through gavony. =) The most valuable aspect of Gifts is that you can work with the hidden info of cards you have in your hand too, presenting complicated decisions for your opponent. If you also have a Lily alive that you are likely to untap with its even better.
These are just suggestions ofc, but its the direction i'd take the deck probably. Good luck!
The deck is currently working with a sun titan package, where my unburial rites will bring back 2 big threats, I'd agree ashiok could probably hit the road, and if I go back to 4c deprive, cryptic and go for the throat are definitely out along with spreading seas (that's one I've recently added to try with sun titan). Fatties come in as needed post board.
Not sure if I'd wanna add more paths though, giving them more lands seems bad when 4c gifts always felt like more of a resource denial deck to me, maybe condemn or thought scours to make cut better? The main reason I have the 1 thought scour is to mess with all the serum visions I see my opponents use, maybe the think I have more and visions differently, or maybe I take the good cards they left on top out the game
I also tried the U/W/R + B way, I tried out 2 deceiver 1 pestermite and kikki as the unburial target and fatties in the board, it was fun but not what I wanted to be doing.
I'd say oRS's list is as good as it gets for the Control build. Of course, depending on the expected metagame, you can tweak some numbers (for example, cutting some removal for more counters/discard etc).
I understand that people want to make their own builds, that is how I got to my build by starting with what I liked and tuning it through tons of practice. If people want to come along for the ride with me that is why I stream and made the guide.
I'd be willing to maybe write a more in-depth sideboarding guide as a future article but for now I feel like I've poured enough of myself into that primer as it is. I mean if this gets really popular and you guys spread it around to other people/websites and I get a ton of feedback or I get approached to make a more complete primer that encompasses other variations of 4c gifts for a website or something like that I'd be willing to do that. As it stands though I would rather take direct questions and answer those people interested for now.
The best thing about playing 4 colors is that you can tweak your sideboard to beat anything you want to beat. In the primer I try to say what sorts of cards are good in each matchup but you need to decide for yourself what metagame you expect and want to be able to beat. My current sideboard is for the Magic Online metagame and I feel it is quite balanced but if I knew I was playing at a local store and new the exact breakdown of matchups to expect I can guarantee that my choices would be different, even if only for the sideboard and not maindeck. For example the wrath package is good against Abzan, but there just isn't that much Abzan on Magic Online. When Elesh Norn is as good as a wrath then you don't need an additional wrath package.
I'd say oRS's list is as good as it gets for the Control build. Of course, depending on the expected metagame, you can tweak some numbers (for example, cutting some removal for more counters/discard etc).
I agree that the core I've built for the deck is quite strong from a control angle. (Insert comment about ego here) Of course the eternal debate is Control vs Midrange and in dailies where I end up siding in Rhinos a lot I find myself wishing they were just maindeck.
Don't worry, this thread is more about brewing and tuning their own lists than caring about lists that actually put up some results. It was a nice read, and although I don't necessarily agree with the control-approach, your choices mostly make a lot of sense and I respect your consistent results with your list. Keep it up!
Truthfully, nobody has put up very many (or almost any) results for this deck, so there's not much reason that there's a currently accepted "best" build for gifts right now. (Or "best" build skeleton probably more accurately.) As a result it's more reasonable to expect people to do significant brewing and tweaking of their own lists.
Thanks for the compliment I was beginning to think nobody had read the primer.
Don't worry, this thread is more about brewing and tuning their own lists than caring about lists that actually put up some results. It was a nice read, and although I don't necessarily agree with the control-approach, your choices mostly make a lot of sense and I respect your consistent results with your list. Keep it up!
Honestly, I just missed seeing the link to the primer. I don't think I need one anymore, but it was nice to see and well written.
This thread more than many others, especially among the less netdeckable, is much more productive and collaborative than many others. It does seem like a bunch of autistic kids all playing alone in the sand box together, but I think thats what happens when you have a deck archetype that does well once in a blue moon and never looks the same as the last one that spiked. This is compounded by the fact that the rock approach does well, especially by people in the thread, yet the best published results are more in line with the control approach.
I'm finding that my fatties are DOA, people have adapted to killing rhino and tasigur, and in turn its hitting norn and iona (paths and cuts and terminates), anyone experiencing this? I tend to win a lot of my games this way, especially since I dont like activating lands when they have removal mana up (which they always seem to have).
I'm finding that my fatties are DOA, people have adapted to killing rhino and tasigur, and in turn its hitting norn and iona (paths and cuts and terminates), anyone experiencing this? I tend to win a lot of my games this way
Sorry, I have a hard time following you here. You struggle with your fatties and Iona and Elesh dying to removal and you win a lot of games what way?
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Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Are your fatties reliably staying on board in this new meta?
You're new to gifts, so I understand if you don't have a comparison to how it was before , but there were less path decks, no terminates, and only single maelstrom pulses in rock decks to kill our reanimation targets.
Are your fatties reliably staying on board in this new meta?
You're new to gifts, so I understand if you don't have a comparison to how it was before , but there were less path decks, no terminates, and only single maelstrom pulses in rock decks to kill our reanimation targets.
No, I agree with all that. It's just that you followed that up with "I tend to win a lot of my games this way" and it's not clear what "this way" refers to, and I'd like to know because I want to win games too
(That said, let's keep in mind that control in general isn't that well positioned right now, and Junk certainly is.)
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When I hit my 3000 post mark, I'm gone for good.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Are your fatties reliably staying on board in this new meta?
You're new to gifts, so I understand if you don't have a comparison to how it was before , but there were less path decks, no terminates, and only single maelstrom pulses in rock decks to kill our reanimation targets.
No, I agree with all that. It's just that you followed that up with "I tend to win a lot of my games this way" and it's not clear what "this way" refers to, and I'd like to know because I want to win games too
(That said, let's keep in mind that control in general isn't that well positioned right now, and Junk certainly is.)
Pretty sure he is saying that historically he wins a lot of games with his fatties ("this way"), but recently his fatties are getting hit with removal so it is troubling. I get why the wording was a bit confusing though.
Been a while, but I managed to top-4 a 14-person GPT for Vegas on Monday. My List. I went 5-0 in the swiss rounds, defeating Infect, UWR Control, Jund, Mono-Blue Delver, and Tribal Flames Zoo. I lost my first top-4 round to Merfolk. I really liked my list, but was a little sad to not see many of the decks that I had sideboard cards for (that was likely a good thing though). Best part was never playing against Tron. Any comments or criticism of the list are more than welcome and greatly appreciated!
Here's the list I've been working on. Any suggestions are helpful, might take it to a PPTQ in a couple weeks. I am only playing two Lili's because I own two but I might pick up a third soon if I need it. Probably just gonna take Twin to States this weekend as I don't feel proficient enough with Gifts yet to play it a larger event.
Been a while, but I managed to top-4 a 14-person GPT for Vegas on Monday. My List. I went 5-0 in the swiss rounds, defeating Infect, UWR Control, Jund, Mono-Blue Delver, and Tribal Flames Zoo. I lost my first top-4 round to Merfolk. I really liked my list, but was a little sad to not see many of the decks that I had sideboard cards for (that was likely a good thing though). Best part was never playing against Tron. Any comments or criticism of the list are more than welcome and greatly appreciated!
From what I could tell, the meta at that event was:
2x Four Color Gifts
2x Infect
Splinter Twin
Tribal Zoo
Jund
UWRb Control
Merfolk
Storm
UW Polymorph
Mono-Blue Delver
3x Unknowns I didn't catch.
I think I commented enough on your list when we met. Sorry if I came off as a little acerbic about it - that's a character flaw I'm trying to get rid of. Also, I was busy making misplays and keeping bad hands like the scrub I am (I went 2-3, one of which was, for all intents and purposes, a bye). It was nice to meet you, and congratulations on your finish!
A turner of phrases quite pleasin'
Had a penchant for trick'ry and teasin'.
The very last line
Might seem sans design
What I mean is without why or wherefore.
-Godel Escher Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by Douglas R. Hofstadter
Does anyone have any experience playing a control list vs u/w tron? My friend (u/w tron) and i always meet at fnm every week it seems and i have a lot of problems with it. Is it just a bad matchup or am i playing the matchup wrong? Seems like he sits on counters all game and just hits his end game faster than me.
Been a while, but I managed to top-4 a 14-person GPT for Vegas on Monday. My List. I went 5-0 in the swiss rounds, defeating Infect, UWR Control, Jund, Mono-Blue Delver, and Tribal Flames Zoo. I lost my first top-4 round to Merfolk. I really liked my list, but was a little sad to not see many of the decks that I had sideboard cards for (that was likely a good thing though). Best part was never playing against Tron. Any comments or criticism of the list are more than welcome and greatly appreciated!
From what I could tell, the meta at that event was:
2x Four Color Gifts
2x Infect
Splinter Twin
Tribal Zoo
Jund
UWRb Control
Merfolk
Storm
UW Polymorph
Mono-Blue Delver
3x Unknowns I didn't catch.
I think I commented enough on your list when we met. Sorry if I came off as a little acerbic about it - that's a character flaw I'm trying to get rid of. Also, I was busy making misplays and keeping bad hands like the scrub I am (I went 2-3, one of which was, for all intents and purposes, a bye). It was nice to meet you, and congratulations on your finish!
I'm pretty sure one of the unknowns was Restore Balance, not sure about the others. No worries, I appreciate all comments on my deck, criticisms especially. The Academy Ruins package is the only thing in my list that I'm a little questionable about right now, and it seems that the earlier discussion on it's merits came down to the fact that Engineered Explosives just doesn't do enough right now. I really like having the option to recur a Batterskull against a control deck, as once I get the Life from the Loam/Raven's Crime soft-lock established that tends to be the next thing I go get to create inevitability.
Does anyone have any experience playing a control list vs u/w tron? My friend (u/w tron) and i always meet at fnm every week it seems and i have a lot of problems with it. Is it just a bad matchup or am i playing the matchup wrong? Seems like he sits on counters all game and just hits his end game faster than me.
Tron decks naturally prey on other Control decks because, as you noticed, they have the superior end game (ridiculous over-costed cards, usually). In these cases your best option is to be the beatdown - apply pressure, don't just sit down and wait. What people do to accomplish that with this deck is having an "aggro package" in your SB, recently featuring Siege Rhino. That and early disruption (discard, Stony Silence) should help you.
lucas, do you have a current list for the control variant of this archetype? I'd like to check it out!
I just came back from a long overdue vacation trip, so I haven't played in a month and now I see some new archetypes rising on MTGO, like Grixis Delver. I was using oRS' list (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/268278#online) and just made a couple changes: a slight different manabase (-1 Delta, +1 Strand), -1 Path, -1 Cut, +1 Dismember, +1 Maelstrom Pulse (this is what I call a "flex" slot, I've used Damnation, Sultai/Esper Charm, the fourth Lingering Souls, the third Mana Leak etc). The SB probably needs more anti-Burn cards - oRS himself has been playing with 3 Leylines instead of Stony Silence recently.
Yeah I've been using oRS' main deck config as well, but -1 Marsh Flats +1 Tar Pit. The sideboard is the hard part imo.
Some thoughts:
1) trying to find a better card that covers more bases (Pulse?) than Celestial Purge. Hitting Liliana, Rhino, Tasigur, and Keranos all at once is pretty nice though! All I know is I got wrecked by Garruk Wildspeaker the other day and realized I didn't have much to deal with him other than a couple Tar Pit hits!
2) Is Unravel the Aether/Deglamer better than Disenchant? Disenchant seems so middle-of-the-road. Maybe go cheaper with Nature's Claim? idk.
3) Sweepers vs. Stony Silence vs. Leyline package. I know this is meta dependent, but the metas I enter are wildly erratic and fairly unknown so I can't really zero in on any popular strategies. Thoughts on this? I default to the sweepers because they are less narrow. Maybe there's a mix of cards that would be ideal to address multiple matchups.
4) Grave Titan over Wurmcoil or 4th Rhino. Just to have a great threat that is not quite as vulnerable to Path.
5) I've seriously been thinking of adding Timely Reinforcements and/or Phyrexian Unlife to buy time vs. burn.
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FWIW I tried to put together your list in paper with some slight changes due to card availability:
-1 Liliana
-1 Marsh Flats
+1 Esper Charm
+1 Tar Pit
SB
-4 Leyline
-1 Rhino
+1 Damnation
+1 Wrath of God
+1 Supreme Verdict
+1 Thragtusk
+1 Negate
I played a friend at FNM who was running Abzan and I sided in the sweeper package and the creature/artifact package (dicard went out and Iona/Elesh). It worked great in G2, where I wrathed him for insane value after he overextended and then proceeded to drop a haymaker every turn henceforth. He got me though game 3 with multiple Fulminators, Garruks, and Wildwood beatdowns for the win in a close one. I'm thinking now that I should have sided out the Leaks as well and just kept the fatties in as extra bodies (and a 1 shot wrath effect with Norn vs. his souls). IDK.
I'm looking forward to continued practice, this deck is hard.
The deck is currently working with a sun titan package, where my unburial rites will bring back 2 big threats, I'd agree ashiok could probably hit the road, and if I go back to 4c deprive, cryptic and go for the throat are definitely out along with spreading seas (that's one I've recently added to try with sun titan). Fatties come in as needed post board.
Not sure if I'd wanna add more paths though, giving them more lands seems bad when 4c gifts always felt like more of a resource denial deck to me, maybe condemn or thought scours to make cut better? The main reason I have the 1 thought scour is to mess with all the serum visions I see my opponents use, maybe the think I have more and visions differently, or maybe I take the good cards they left on top out the game
I also tried the U/W/R + B way, I tried out 2 deceiver 1 pestermite and kikki as the unburial target and fatties in the board, it was fun but not what I wanted to be doing.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1psxMcKjvuFd3dXsJ27DbSI2aKd1nbKWBk4_TjzD7kHc/pub
I'd say oRS's list is as good as it gets for the Control build. Of course, depending on the expected metagame, you can tweak some numbers (for example, cutting some removal for more counters/discard etc).
I'd be willing to maybe write a more in-depth sideboarding guide as a future article but for now I feel like I've poured enough of myself into that primer as it is. I mean if this gets really popular and you guys spread it around to other people/websites and I get a ton of feedback or I get approached to make a more complete primer that encompasses other variations of 4c gifts for a website or something like that I'd be willing to do that. As it stands though I would rather take direct questions and answer those people interested for now.
The best thing about playing 4 colors is that you can tweak your sideboard to beat anything you want to beat. In the primer I try to say what sorts of cards are good in each matchup but you need to decide for yourself what metagame you expect and want to be able to beat. My current sideboard is for the Magic Online metagame and I feel it is quite balanced but if I knew I was playing at a local store and new the exact breakdown of matchups to expect I can guarantee that my choices would be different, even if only for the sideboard and not maindeck. For example the wrath package is good against Abzan, but there just isn't that much Abzan on Magic Online. When Elesh Norn is as good as a wrath then you don't need an additional wrath package.
I agree that the core I've built for the deck is quite strong from a control angle. (Insert comment about ego here) Of course the eternal debate is Control vs Midrange and in dailies where I end up siding in Rhinos a lot I find myself wishing they were just maindeck.
Truthfully, nobody has put up very many (or almost any) results for this deck, so there's not much reason that there's a currently accepted "best" build for gifts right now. (Or "best" build skeleton probably more accurately.) As a result it's more reasonable to expect people to do significant brewing and tweaking of their own lists.
Honestly, I just missed seeing the link to the primer. I don't think I need one anymore, but it was nice to see and well written.
This thread more than many others, especially among the less netdeckable, is much more productive and collaborative than many others. It does seem like a bunch of autistic kids all playing alone in the sand box together, but I think thats what happens when you have a deck archetype that does well once in a blue moon and never looks the same as the last one that spiked. This is compounded by the fact that the rock approach does well, especially by people in the thread, yet the best published results are more in line with the control approach.
I'm finding that my fatties are DOA, people have adapted to killing rhino and tasigur, and in turn its hitting norn and iona (paths and cuts and terminates), anyone experiencing this? I tend to win a lot of my games this way, especially since I dont like activating lands when they have removal mana up (which they always seem to have).
Ideas?
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
You're new to gifts, so I understand if you don't have a comparison to how it was before , but there were less path decks, no terminates, and only single maelstrom pulses in rock decks to kill our reanimation targets.
(That said, let's keep in mind that control in general isn't that well positioned right now, and Junk certainly is.)
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Breeding Pool
1x Celestial Colonnade
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Flooded Strand
1x Forest
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Godless Shrine
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Island
1x Marsh Flats
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Murmuring Bosk
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
1x Polluted Delta
1x Stirring Wildwood
1x Swamp
1x Temple Garden
1x Treetop Village
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Watery Grave
1x Windswept Heath
1x Damnation
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Life from the Loam
2x Lingering Souls
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Raven's Crime
2x Thoughtseize
1x Unburial Rites
Instant (16)
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Esper Charm
4x Gifts Ungiven
3x Mana Leak
1x Murderous Cut
3x Path to Exile
1x Sultai Charm
Creature (7)
2x Birds of Paradise
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Monastery Mentor
1x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1x Thragtusk
1x Voice of Resurgence
Planeswalker (2)
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2x Celestial Purge
1x Extirpate
1x Gavony Township
3x Kitchen Finks
4x Siege Rhino
1x Stony Silence
2x Timely Reinforcements
From what I could tell, the meta at that event was:
Had a penchant for trick'ry and teasin'.
The very last line
Might seem sans design
What I mean is without why or wherefore.
-Godel Escher Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by Douglas R. Hofstadter
I'm pretty sure one of the unknowns was Restore Balance, not sure about the others. No worries, I appreciate all comments on my deck, criticisms especially. The Academy Ruins package is the only thing in my list that I'm a little questionable about right now, and it seems that the earlier discussion on it's merits came down to the fact that Engineered Explosives just doesn't do enough right now. I really like having the option to recur a Batterskull against a control deck, as once I get the Life from the Loam/Raven's Crime soft-lock established that tends to be the next thing I go get to create inevitability.
Tron decks naturally prey on other Control decks because, as you noticed, they have the superior end game (ridiculous over-costed cards, usually). In these cases your best option is to be the beatdown - apply pressure, don't just sit down and wait. What people do to accomplish that with this deck is having an "aggro package" in your SB, recently featuring Siege Rhino. That and early disruption (discard, Stony Silence) should help you.
I just came back from a long overdue vacation trip, so I haven't played in a month and now I see some new archetypes rising on MTGO, like Grixis Delver. I was using oRS' list (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/268278#online) and just made a couple changes: a slight different manabase (-1 Delta, +1 Strand), -1 Path, -1 Cut, +1 Dismember, +1 Maelstrom Pulse (this is what I call a "flex" slot, I've used Damnation, Sultai/Esper Charm, the fourth Lingering Souls, the third Mana Leak etc). The SB probably needs more anti-Burn cards - oRS himself has been playing with 3 Leylines instead of Stony Silence recently.
Some thoughts:
1) trying to find a better card that covers more bases (Pulse?) than Celestial Purge. Hitting Liliana, Rhino, Tasigur, and Keranos all at once is pretty nice though! All I know is I got wrecked by Garruk Wildspeaker the other day and realized I didn't have much to deal with him other than a couple Tar Pit hits!
2) Is Unravel the Aether/Deglamer better than Disenchant? Disenchant seems so middle-of-the-road. Maybe go cheaper with Nature's Claim? idk.
3) Sweepers vs. Stony Silence vs. Leyline package. I know this is meta dependent, but the metas I enter are wildly erratic and fairly unknown so I can't really zero in on any popular strategies. Thoughts on this? I default to the sweepers because they are less narrow. Maybe there's a mix of cards that would be ideal to address multiple matchups.
4) Grave Titan over Wurmcoil or 4th Rhino. Just to have a great threat that is not quite as vulnerable to Path.
5) I've seriously been thinking of adding Timely Reinforcements and/or Phyrexian Unlife to buy time vs. burn.