I'm working on building the control version of Gifts, and have also experienced Elesh Norn not being the automatic slam-dunk G1 that you need if you're in a position to go for an early Rites. I was thinking of trying Terastodon instead; you can sacrifice your lands and drop instant death on the table, you can Armageddon your opponent if they've stumbled on land and you happen to have a way to clean up the tokens in hand (Pulse, EE, etc.), eight mana isn't completely unreasonable to get up to once you've Loamed a couple of times. Any good?
I completely agree with him regarding Affinity. I feel somewhat comfortable when I play 4 Souls, but that deck is so explosive and treacherous that I want to just completely hose it. I play *four* Stony Silence not only because of that, but mainly because it's the best anti RG Tron card, and that matchup sucks.
I also agree that you should just play more copies of good cards instead of trying to have multiples to Gifts for. I still can do it because I play Decay, Path, Dismember and Pulse, but I don't like Doom Blade/Go for the Throat/Victim of Night etc.
Rhino is awesome. I have two MD and 0 SB, but am considering the SB copies after seeing his results.
I've been lurking for a few weeks now, just wanted to thank you for those links. Especially the stream. I'll post my build for critique once I take it to my local game store, and get results. Win or lose it will also come with a write up.
Played the Butakov list card for card with the exception of removing 1 KoTR for a Iona for my FNM. I have to say, the gifts package is the perfect way to go over the top. I ended up going 3-1-0 ID for promo but we still played it out. (Last round was against little kid abzan)
First Round (Affinity)
Game 1: He vomits his hand and follows up with a Steel Overseer and my turn 4 Elesh Norn wasnt fast enough as he already had +1/+1 counters on his guys. Double Cranial Plating seals the deal.
Game 2: I keep a hand of 2 Siege Rhino, 1 Birds of Paradise, 1 Stony Silence, 1 Godless Shrine, Swamp, and Ghost quarter. (SNAP KEEP)
I rip a Overgrown Tomb on my draw step and I pretty much curve out and gifts into an Elesh Norn with double Rhino.
Game 3: He mulls to 5 and Tarmogoyf Beats with abrupt decay back up.
1-0
Round 2 (UR Splinter twin)
Game 1: I get an early goyf for the beats, he fetched, Serum Visions, taking my goyf out of bolt range. I eventually get a second tarmogoyf out to put it tons of pressure, he has little choice (I think) and tries to combo off twice of which I have 2 Abrupt Decays and 1 Path to Exile in hand.
Sideboard: -3 KoTR (This will be a recurring theme) -1 BoP, -2 Liliana, -1 Ghost Quarter, // +2 Slaughter Pacts, + 2 Negate, +2 Siege Rhino, +1 Tectonic Edge
I figured the game would get grindier so i thought a tec edge would help keeping off 5-6 land.
Game 2: Forgot what my hand was but it was a nice curve with tarmo // siege // into gifts. I gifts on curve and just leave unburial rights and Iona in the graveyard for a while. I attempted to grind him out with lingering souls and creatures. Knowing I had grinded him out of cards in his hand, i reanimated Iona naming blue, he was still playing cards like obstinate baloth and batterskull, but a hard cast Elesh norn sealed the deal.
2-0
Round 3 (UWR Control)
Game 1: I was thinking he was blue moon because he opened with Island Island, so i Fetched my junk basics with a birds of paradise in play. I keep it for a turn then he electrolyze me and the birds so i had no choice but to show him what I was doing, i gifted for Iona and Unburial rights, though like last round, i was super afraid of remand. We exchange resources up to a point where i have 7 lands in play, I sand bag the last land in my hand hoping he'd tap out for a counterspell. I swing in, no blocks, follow up with a siege rhino, which he cryptic commands. He's tapped out, i play my 8th land and play and reanimate Iona naming blue. (There's an argument for naming white but he had already used 3 Path to Exiles) and the game end from there.
Sideboard: -3 KoTR, -2 Abrupt Decay, -1 Ghost Quarter // +1 Slaughter pact, +2 Rhino, +2 Negate, +1 Tectonic Edge
I wanted to grind him out and keep him off his colors. I still think the gifts package is still very good.
Game 2: He keeps a 2 lander, I keep a nice curve with 2 gifts and siege rhino, I elected to curve out to siege rhino which he remands 3 times. Im so behind he has double snap caster to Valorous stance / Path my rhinos and tarmogoyfs and Geist of Saint Traft is a beating.
Game 3:I mull to 6, (last hand was 6 lands and an unburial rights) I keep a hand of 4 lands on of them a Gavony, negate and a Hierarch (SNAP KEEP)
Play fetch, crack play hierarch, fetch crack, fetch, crack, i drew gas, lingering souls, goyfs, i eventually draw my iona. I draw gifts and immediately cast it after his taps out for vendillion clique targeting himself. I get the loam package of Loam, Raven's Crime, and a tec edge. He makes me keep Raven's Crime. We exchange resources, mostly him remanding my goyfs and a lili.I'm not sure what happened but when he passed the turn back, I dredge loam for the tec edge. Play the tec edge, and destroy his 4th land, he floats all the mana and cryptic tap/bounce one of my guys. I Raven's crime myself discarding iona and reanimate iona naming white and the game closes out from there.
Last round (Little Kid Abzan)
We ID'd and he gave me the promo. We play around a bit with little sideboarding done. This match up just magnified a little more how terrible KoTR is. Their stuff is just bigger and Wilt leaf liege can be a beating.
One of the changes I'd make is changing the 3rd KoTR for a Grave Titan. It can be hard casted with all the mana dorks we have and I think the guys we get from it help chump and get pumped by Gavony. Might bump the Gavony to 2 taking out the Ghost Quarter. There are many times I thought tec edge from the board would be better. Iona was a house given the match ups except affinity.
Elesh norn was great. She can be hardcaster, and just locks most creature decks out of the game. Sure she's clunky and awkward in some match ups. But that's why I had the Iona package as well. and Drawing elesh norn with your dorks is completely fine.
I think having some amount of sweepers against the Jacob Wilson list is needed. Im thinking DoJ, Damnation, Wrath of god. It does give up sideboard slots but I think the Jacob Wilson list is something that will be popular moving forward. We side into a pseudo control/grind deck after board. Anyway, sorry for the long post. I'd like to hear your guys feedback on possible KOTR replacements.
First spin around the FNM block with this deck (control version) last night, 3-1 (one of the many ex-Pod refugees!). A couple of thoughts:
1. I believe that the stock manabase for this deck is wrong. To cast T1-2 discard and T3 Liliana, 18-19 black is needed. I typically see 15-16 Black…not gonna cut it for me. I'm not sure the basic island is necessary. This deck splashes blue and the requirements are not great, even if running Mana Leak--14 U would suffice. In Blood Moon scenarios, I want B/G basics for Abrupt Decay/Golgari Charm. For Zoo and Burn, basic Plains is handy for Path to Exile without taking lots of damage. I really want to play 2 Urborgs to help Liliana and also help me take less damage in the middle game from superfluous fetches, but I have yet to officially pull that trigger. Opinions very welcome!
2. Tasigur. One MD was not enough. This card over-performed by a mile! Just the attention this card garnered bought me so much time to do other important stuff! Going up to 1 MD 1 SB.
3. Sylvan Caryatid- haven't figured this out yet. Ran 2 MD and in one Blood Moon game I played it was very handy (but that's it), still on the fence. If anyone has any deep insights beyond 1) Accelerates you to T3 Gifts, or 2) Terrible top deck later on, I am ALL EARS. Personally I ran 2 just for mana fixing because by my standards the mana for this deck is NOT GOOD!!
Control mages please chime in and tell me your thoughts! Honestly, I am of the growing consensus that doesn't really believe in control in this Modern format, but I relish the challenge (despite the apparent odds) of making this work! Many at my LGS expressed their envy regarding my deck choice and that steels my resolve even further.
p.s. Sultai Charm was also very valuable in many different contexts last night.
KotR: most of the times I play it, it's at least a 5/5. I was testing some tweaks to Butakov's list yesterday - had 2 8/8 Knights at one point and a 5/5 or 6/6 + a Goyf a lot of times. So I really don't think it's terrible, it's actually quite good.
That said, I was experimenting with only 2 or 3 copies. Four copies sometimes feels too much.
One nice replacement is Loxodon Smiter because it laughs at Remand and Liliana. That said, if you did't like KotR because it was smaller than the creatures played by the Little Kid deck, Loxodon will be even worse. I don't think we can even try to beat that deck with bigger creatures as the deck is designed to accelerate into them and pump the team.
Mana base: my Control version has 18 black sources. It's definitely mandatory. I want BG sources ASAP, the other colors I can get later. Then again, I just hate Mana Leak n this deck, it's super reactive and forces you to play a worse mana base, so I just don't play it.
How do you feel about 2 kotr // 1 grave titan // 1 iona? I think im just a little all in with the gifts package at this point, but it isnt actually a rare occasion that we can hard cast grave titan. just my 2 c.
I love Grave Titan in the Control build. It's probably not necessary for the Rock version. Don't know about Iona. It's probably your best shot against Burn, but it's not very good in the current metagame.
I'm currently playing Dead Guy Aller and 4c Gifts in modern. As we already said, Gifts needs some early pressure or to go heavy control and Dead Guy is a really grindy deck which sometimes lack of impact. What if we mixed both?! The resiliency/disruption of DGA and the finisher of Gift?
in fact i mainly removed Bob (hurts like hell with Gifts, Rites, Elesh), Monastery Mentor could be great here.
That's just an idea for now, but I already like it The deck could be really strong. may-be....
Did anybody ever try out Gisela, Blade of Goldnight as a potential fatty? I like that in comparison to Elesh Norn she will end the game very quickly, especially if you're playing a creature heavy build. I also like that Gisela plays offense and defense very well, but in particular I like that she can actually help our burn matchup. They basically are in a skullcrack or bust situation, and likely only have 1-2 more draws to find it before you just kill them. Certainly not as powerful as Iona, but Gisela has significant applications against aggressive decks. Not being hardcastable is a downside.
Been testing. Here is my current changes from last time cut finks, eternal witness, sultai charm from main added 3 tasigur and 2 thoughtscour. Cut timely reinforcements and stony silence from board added feed the klan and drown in sorrow.
The idea is that the heavy mana costs represent between 4-6 damage in aggresive match ups, so they become blank at best and kill you at worst. Tasigur fulfulls a similar role, since the red player usually needs to 2-1 himself to kill him. He also is a major threat, requiring a lot of attentions to kill while you generally mess with their hand or gifts them to death. Athough I have always liked the option to reanimate a kitchen finks, I have never done so, I can recall edicting myself once to stay alive, but the option to go turn 1 thoughtscour turn 2 tasigur is too good. Speaking of which thoughtscour, which was added to turn on tasigur is quite good when you run life from the loam, rites, etc. Life from the loam also turns on delve and tasigurs ability all make for a combination that is absurdly hard for midrange decks (the azban decks) to actually deal with. As for sideboard cards, with pod gone I have switched to drown in sorrow, the affinity decks cant usually recover in enough time from a good pyroclasm effect to save their souls and I like drown in sorrow against burn more than liliana. Drown in sorrow is also conviently good against the azban decks, but I am unsure if there is any thing worth sideboarding out since all your cards are good against them. Feed the klan is in for timely, its a mana less, in a color that I want more of at the start of the game than white. Also, it has been rare I turn on the "get tokens" mode due to mana dorks. Being able to gain 10 (!) with tasigur, collonade, elesh is gg.
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legacy: Tes, Affinity, Dredge
modern: 4 color Gifts, ritual gifts, goryo's vengeance, affinity
I've been having mildly more success than I was previously playing this bant caw blade list. Let me know what you guys think or if you're confused about any of the card choices or what the usual gifts piles are.
Just kidding, but seriously, what are the advantages of Squadron Hawk over Lingering Souls? Even just the front half of lingering souls is like two squadron hawks for 1.5 W each.
Using them as shuffle effects doesn't seem worth it with just two serum visions.
I honestly would much rather be playing lingering souls, but without the discard outlets ( and the necessary black) its not worth the cost in my opinion. There are also a few advantages to playing hawks. Being able to keep the card advantage in hand rather than leaving it in a slightly more vulnerable place ( the grave), and upping the card count in hand for sword of war and peace, which im highly considering moving to the main over one of the other swords.
Interesting. I'm wondering: is it really worth it to splash blue for Snapcaster, Academy Ruins, and Creeping Tar Pit in your Jund Loam deck? It might be, I was just curious.
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In search of the Total Artwork
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Erebos B | Ghost Council WB | Grimgrin UB | Jhoira UR
Jor Kadeen RW | Melek UR | Mimeoplasm GUB | Rasputin WU
Savra BG | Sisay GW | Teneb BGW | Thada Adel U | Wort BR
I draft and play EDH. If a Standard player can't understand who a card is for, it's probably for me.
I also write things about good films.
Butakov got another 4-0. Apparently he only changed the manabase and the SB: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/263938#online
I also agree that you should just play more copies of good cards instead of trying to have multiples to Gifts for. I still can do it because I play Decay, Path, Dismember and Pulse, but I don't like Doom Blade/Go for the Throat/Victim of Night etc.
Rhino is awesome. I have two MD and 0 SB, but am considering the SB copies after seeing his results.
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-junk-gifts#online
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-wubg-17356#online
This guy has been streaming the Control version for some days, it's a nice source to learn the deck: http://www.twitch.tv/ors_mtgo
First Round (Affinity)
Game 1: He vomits his hand and follows up with a Steel Overseer and my turn 4 Elesh Norn wasnt fast enough as he already had +1/+1 counters on his guys. Double Cranial Plating seals the deal.
Sideboard: -3 Liliana -3 KoTR // +2 Stony Silence, +2 Creeping Corrosion, +2 Siege Rhino
Game 2: I keep a hand of 2 Siege Rhino, 1 Birds of Paradise, 1 Stony Silence, 1 Godless Shrine, Swamp, and Ghost quarter. (SNAP KEEP)
I rip a Overgrown Tomb on my draw step and I pretty much curve out and gifts into an Elesh Norn with double Rhino.
Game 3: He mulls to 5 and Tarmogoyf Beats with abrupt decay back up.
1-0
Round 2 (UR Splinter twin)
Game 1: I get an early goyf for the beats, he fetched, Serum Visions, taking my goyf out of bolt range. I eventually get a second tarmogoyf out to put it tons of pressure, he has little choice (I think) and tries to combo off twice of which I have 2 Abrupt Decays and 1 Path to Exile in hand.
Sideboard: -3 KoTR (This will be a recurring theme) -1 BoP, -2 Liliana, -1 Ghost Quarter, // +2 Slaughter Pacts, + 2 Negate, +2 Siege Rhino, +1 Tectonic Edge
I figured the game would get grindier so i thought a tec edge would help keeping off 5-6 land.
Game 2: Forgot what my hand was but it was a nice curve with tarmo // siege // into gifts. I gifts on curve and just leave unburial rights and Iona in the graveyard for a while. I attempted to grind him out with lingering souls and creatures. Knowing I had grinded him out of cards in his hand, i reanimated Iona naming blue, he was still playing cards like obstinate baloth and batterskull, but a hard cast Elesh norn sealed the deal.
2-0
Round 3 (UWR Control)
Game 1: I was thinking he was blue moon because he opened with Island Island, so i Fetched my junk basics with a birds of paradise in play. I keep it for a turn then he electrolyze me and the birds so i had no choice but to show him what I was doing, i gifted for Iona and Unburial rights, though like last round, i was super afraid of remand. We exchange resources up to a point where i have 7 lands in play, I sand bag the last land in my hand hoping he'd tap out for a counterspell. I swing in, no blocks, follow up with a siege rhino, which he cryptic commands. He's tapped out, i play my 8th land and play and reanimate Iona naming blue. (There's an argument for naming white but he had already used 3 Path to Exiles) and the game end from there.
Sideboard: -3 KoTR, -2 Abrupt Decay, -1 Ghost Quarter // +1 Slaughter pact, +2 Rhino, +2 Negate, +1 Tectonic Edge
I wanted to grind him out and keep him off his colors. I still think the gifts package is still very good.
Game 2: He keeps a 2 lander, I keep a nice curve with 2 gifts and siege rhino, I elected to curve out to siege rhino which he remands 3 times. Im so behind he has double snap caster to Valorous stance / Path my rhinos and tarmogoyfs and Geist of Saint Traft is a beating.
Game 3:I mull to 6, (last hand was 6 lands and an unburial rights) I keep a hand of 4 lands on of them a Gavony, negate and a Hierarch (SNAP KEEP)
Play fetch, crack play hierarch, fetch crack, fetch, crack, i drew gas, lingering souls, goyfs, i eventually draw my iona. I draw gifts and immediately cast it after his taps out for vendillion clique targeting himself. I get the loam package of Loam, Raven's Crime, and a tec edge. He makes me keep Raven's Crime. We exchange resources, mostly him remanding my goyfs and a lili.I'm not sure what happened but when he passed the turn back, I dredge loam for the tec edge. Play the tec edge, and destroy his 4th land, he floats all the mana and cryptic tap/bounce one of my guys. I Raven's crime myself discarding iona and reanimate iona naming white and the game closes out from there.
Last round (Little Kid Abzan)
We ID'd and he gave me the promo. We play around a bit with little sideboarding done. This match up just magnified a little more how terrible KoTR is. Their stuff is just bigger and Wilt leaf liege can be a beating.
One of the changes I'd make is changing the 3rd KoTR for a Grave Titan. It can be hard casted with all the mana dorks we have and I think the guys we get from it help chump and get pumped by Gavony. Might bump the Gavony to 2 taking out the Ghost Quarter. There are many times I thought tec edge from the board would be better. Iona was a house given the match ups except affinity.
Elesh norn was great. She can be hardcaster, and just locks most creature decks out of the game. Sure she's clunky and awkward in some match ups. But that's why I had the Iona package as well. and Drawing elesh norn with your dorks is completely fine.
I think having some amount of sweepers against the Jacob Wilson list is needed. Im thinking DoJ, Damnation, Wrath of god. It does give up sideboard slots but I think the Jacob Wilson list is something that will be popular moving forward. We side into a pseudo control/grind deck after board. Anyway, sorry for the long post. I'd like to hear your guys feedback on possible KOTR replacements.
1. I believe that the stock manabase for this deck is wrong. To cast T1-2 discard and T3 Liliana, 18-19 black is needed. I typically see 15-16 Black…not gonna cut it for me. I'm not sure the basic island is necessary. This deck splashes blue and the requirements are not great, even if running Mana Leak--14 U would suffice. In Blood Moon scenarios, I want B/G basics for Abrupt Decay/Golgari Charm. For Zoo and Burn, basic Plains is handy for Path to Exile without taking lots of damage. I really want to play 2 Urborgs to help Liliana and also help me take less damage in the middle game from superfluous fetches, but I have yet to officially pull that trigger. Opinions very welcome!
2. Tasigur. One MD was not enough. This card over-performed by a mile! Just the attention this card garnered bought me so much time to do other important stuff! Going up to 1 MD 1 SB.
3. Sylvan Caryatid- haven't figured this out yet. Ran 2 MD and in one Blood Moon game I played it was very handy (but that's it), still on the fence. If anyone has any deep insights beyond 1) Accelerates you to T3 Gifts, or 2) Terrible top deck later on, I am ALL EARS. Personally I ran 2 just for mana fixing because by my standards the mana for this deck is NOT GOOD!!
Control mages please chime in and tell me your thoughts! Honestly, I am of the growing consensus that doesn't really believe in control in this Modern format, but I relish the challenge (despite the apparent odds) of making this work! Many at my LGS expressed their envy regarding my deck choice and that steels my resolve even further.
p.s. Sultai Charm was also very valuable in many different contexts last night.
KotR: most of the times I play it, it's at least a 5/5. I was testing some tweaks to Butakov's list yesterday - had 2 8/8 Knights at one point and a 5/5 or 6/6 + a Goyf a lot of times. So I really don't think it's terrible, it's actually quite good.
That said, I was experimenting with only 2 or 3 copies. Four copies sometimes feels too much.
One nice replacement is Loxodon Smiter because it laughs at Remand and Liliana. That said, if you did't like KotR because it was smaller than the creatures played by the Little Kid deck, Loxodon will be even worse. I don't think we can even try to beat that deck with bigger creatures as the deck is designed to accelerate into them and pump the team.
Mana base: my Control version has 18 black sources. It's definitely mandatory. I want BG sources ASAP, the other colors I can get later. Then again, I just hate Mana Leak n this deck, it's super reactive and forces you to play a worse mana base, so I just don't play it.
I'm just trying something like that:
4 Lingering Souls
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
3 Pack Rat
2 Tidehollow Sculler
Discard
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Unburial Rites
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Resilience
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Batterskull
3 Path to Exile
1 Murderous Cut
1 Dismember
3 Disfigure
25 lands
in fact i mainly removed Bob (hurts like hell with Gifts, Rites, Elesh), Monastery Mentor could be great here.
That's just an idea for now, but I already like it The deck could be really strong. may-be....
The idea is that the heavy mana costs represent between 4-6 damage in aggresive match ups, so they become blank at best and kill you at worst. Tasigur fulfulls a similar role, since the red player usually needs to 2-1 himself to kill him. He also is a major threat, requiring a lot of attentions to kill while you generally mess with their hand or gifts them to death. Athough I have always liked the option to reanimate a kitchen finks, I have never done so, I can recall edicting myself once to stay alive, but the option to go turn 1 thoughtscour turn 2 tasigur is too good. Speaking of which thoughtscour, which was added to turn on tasigur is quite good when you run life from the loam, rites, etc. Life from the loam also turns on delve and tasigurs ability all make for a combination that is absurdly hard for midrange decks (the azban decks) to actually deal with. As for sideboard cards, with pod gone I have switched to drown in sorrow, the affinity decks cant usually recover in enough time from a good pyroclasm effect to save their souls and I like drown in sorrow against burn more than liliana. Drown in sorrow is also conviently good against the azban decks, but I am unsure if there is any thing worth sideboarding out since all your cards are good against them. Feed the klan is in for timely, its a mana less, in a color that I want more of at the start of the game than white. Also, it has been rare I turn on the "get tokens" mode due to mana dorks. Being able to gain 10 (!) with tasigur, collonade, elesh is gg.
modern: 4 color Gifts, ritual gifts, goryo's vengeance, affinity
vintage: burning oath
my affinity primer
http://legitmtg.com/competitive/metalcrafting-for-the-win-an-affinity-primer/
4 birds of paradise
3 noble hierarch
4 squadron hawk
4 knight of the reliquary
1 elesh norn, grand cenobite
1 sigarda, host of herons
Spells
4 Gifts Ungiven
3 mana leak
2 remand
2 spell snare
2 path to exile
2 serum visions
1 life from the loam
1 unburial rites
1 sword of feast and famine
1 sword of fire and ice
Land
4 misty rainforest
4 windswept heath
3 breeding pool
3 temple garden
2 hallowed fountain
1 overgrown tomb
1 Treetop village
1 forest
1 island
1 plains
1 ghost quarter
1 academy ruins
1 moorland haunt
1 Boseiju, Who shelters all
1 Bojuka bog
1 tectonic edge
1 iona, shield of emeria
1 spell snare
1 hurkyl's recall
1 sword of light and shadow / war and peace
I've been having mildly more success than I was previously playing this bant caw blade list. Let me know what you guys think or if you're confused about any of the card choices or what the usual gifts piles are.
Just kidding, but seriously, what are the advantages of Squadron Hawk over Lingering Souls? Even just the front half of lingering souls is like two squadron hawks for 1.5 W each.
Using them as shuffle effects doesn't seem worth it with just two serum visions.
Splintertwin (?)