4 damage - 1 extra damage, but you miss out on the gain 3
Double strike - only smiter is really ever bigger than 3 power, unless you charm + rampager. So, 3 damage + gain 3 can go straight to the face.
Indestructible - Unless they have firespout or something MD AND you are saving mana open for it, then you are protecting 1 creature, in which case, helix would be one swing and gain 3.
That's my line of thinking (which may be wrong), just getting some discussion going.
I've also been wondering 1 canopy and 3 stomping ground vs 2 canopy 2 grounds. Again, the 1x Consistency argument comes into play, but I'm not a huge fan of seeing canopy too often. Also, 2 tarns vs 2 flats. Not sure how much difference that will make in practice.
Most of the Tron matches were easily killed as long as we had a couple guys out on turn 1 or 2. After that it was just burn burn burn. We tested firespout in Tron to test the resilience of the deck but it felt pretty slow and we usually got enough damage in before turn 3 that it didn't really matter if we lost 2 creatures. Steppe Lynx is especially good and can usually get anywhere from 4-8 damage in before he dies to a pyroclasm or the like. Mindcensor is a blowout. Check the video from tonight.
The Fae matches were downhill battles for Zoo because the multitude of creatures and instant-speed removal was a lot for spellstutter sprite counters and mistbinds' champion. Volcanic fallout is just the icing on the cake. What you don't want to see is a Mistbind Clique on the table but it usually sits and blocks rather than attacks and will die to path most of the time. Just keep the pressure on and the board clear and it becomes way easier. Ghor-Clan Rampager is a house and if he resolves around mid-game I'm not sure if fae can win.
Overall very impressed with the main decklist but I've been pulling so many cards in and out I can't settle for a solidified list yet.
I went 3-0 in tonight's event, using the store credit to buy me a playset of Soldier of the Pantheon. I feel that the deck is very strong, but I also feel that I got pretty lucky.
I didn't take any notes, so pardon the super-short tournament report.
Yeah good ol' burn. Game one was a race with painful manabases and I managed to win by a hair's breadth, thanks to goblin guide. Game two I mulled to five, but managed a decent fight, losing by one turn. Game three he mulled to four and it wasn't even a close fight.
Sideboarding: -4 PTE +2 Thalia +2 Boros Charm.
R2 vs. Scapeshift
Game one he tried to stabilize with Obstinate Baloth but I had a PTE to seal the deal. Game two I was stuck on 2 temple gardens with a bunch of red cards in hand and died to his combo. Game 3 I gambled and threw down my guys, and luckily he did not have the anger of the gods in hand. When he finally topdecked it, my 2 Experiment Ones were 4/4 thanks to goyf triggering evolve.
Sideboarding: -2 PTE -1 Smiter +2 Thalia +1 Torpor Orb. As he was on the Baloth Titan plan, I felt that a number of PTEs were still necessary. Hence, I did not board in Boros Charms, even though on hindsight I should have, to save my guys from Anger of the Gods. The correct boarding should have been +3 Boros Charm.
R3 vs. Big Zoo
This is supposed to be an unwinnable matchup, but I got reallllly lucky. Game one my opponent threw down disgusting stuff - domri with goyf fighting to kill my guy, scavenging ooze, Thrun. However, he made a critical error. He used his Domri's -2 to let his Thrun fight my 3/4 goyf. However, this put his domri into the yard, which grew goyf into a 4/5, killing his Thrun. He tried to recover by slamming down a smiter, but I pathed it and pushed through the final points of damage with GCR. Game two he got stuck on one land for a couple of turns, so I killed his Hierarch. When he finally drew a second land it was a kessing wolf run, and when he drew his third land it was too late.
Sideboarding: Nothing. I realized that if I was not so lucky this would have been a terribly lopsided matchup in his favor. Any sideboard suggestions to bring in against Big Zoo?
4 damage - 1 extra damage, but you miss out on the gain 3
Double strike - only smiter is really ever bigger than 3 power, unless you charm + rampager. So, 3 damage + gain 3 can go straight to the face.
Indestructible - Unless they have firespout or something MD AND you are saving mana open for it, then you are protecting 1 creature, in which case, helix would be one swing and gain 3.
That's my line of thinking (which may be wrong), just getting some discussion going.
I've also been wondering 1 canopy and 3 stomping ground vs 2 canopy 2 grounds. Again, the 1x Consistency argument comes into play, but I'm not a huge fan of seeing canopy too often. Also, 2 tarns vs 2 flats. Not sure how much difference that will make in practice.
Yeah, the 1 extra reach is pretty big. But if I face less removal as well, Id rather have the pillar. Its an easy switch. for now, protecting myself from wipes is bigger.
Damn... two days off and the forum grew 3 pages..! hahah
Lantern what made you drop the Domri's? I've said previously that i was disapointed with it vs American...
Apperently the guy who got 4th place in the gp trial loved it against american control, but he still didnt know if he liked it or not. I'd rather have boros charm, for now.
Most of the Tron matches were easily killed as long as we had a couple guys out on turn 1 or 2. After that it was just burn burn burn. We tested firespout in Tron to test the resilience of the deck but it felt pretty slow and we usually got enough damage in before turn 3 that it didn't really matter if we lost 2 creatures. Steppe Lynx is especially good and can usually get anywhere from 4-8 damage in before he dies to a pyroclasm or the like. Mindcensor is a blowout. Check the video from tonight.
The Fae matches were downhill battles for Zoo because the multitude of creatures and instant-speed removal was a lot for spellstutter sprite counters and mistbinds' champion. Volcanic fallout is just the icing on the cake. What you don't want to see is a Mistbind Clique on the table but it usually sits and blocks rather than attacks and will die to path most of the time. Just keep the pressure on and the board clear and it becomes way easier. Ghor-Clan Rampager is a house and if he resolves around mid-game I'm not sure if fae can win.
Overall very impressed with the main decklist but I've been pulling so many cards in and out I can't settle for a solidified list yet.
I'm not a fan of steepe because she can get removed so easily, even if she does a lot of damage... that being said, you do at least have knight in there because she does make it better. Still not a huge fan of knight in the small zoo either
Fae is going to be a pretty easy matchup, as everyone can see so far. I've only had 2 loss to fae over ALL my testing and one was to mana screw, the other because Badd is an awesome deck builder and made a fae list that was really tight... And had the splintertwin combo in it.
I was thinking about Searing Blaze, but it is just an other bad topdeck, after you have used your fetchlands. You always want it on in your starting Hand and thus need it as a 4-off. RR on Turn 2 is not always achievable too. Dont mentioning the matchups where you will not face lots of creatures and cant w8 for a e.g. wurmcoil to hit. So no for me.
Boros Charm Vs Helix : Yeah 4 dmg is superior, but helix wins you aggro matchups and kills stuff more efficient. We run a shock heavy manabase and you want that lifegain in the mirror/burn/fish. Helix is also stronger Vs affinity, cuz you can kill manlands or stuff on their turn. Double strike is rarely useful. The best Part ist indestructible, but I question charm as a 4-off or a helix replacement.
The 1 pillar in my Mainboard is there because you dont need / want 4 PtE in every MU. Pillar kills finks and voice too, with the upside of burning face (or planeswalker) if needed. There is nothing more to it besides Sorcery for Goyf. Feel free to switch it but it has done work for me.
Long story short, I like lanterns approach too, -1 helix, -1 pillar, +2 charm.
@Sasky
Thanks for considering my List seems Like lantern has the Same creature Base as me now, nice.
and mana base I think. Our spells are the only thing different. Its been running smooth.
I went 3-0 in tonight's event, using the store credit to buy me a playset of Soldier of the Pantheon. I feel that the deck is very strong, but I also feel that I got pretty lucky.
I didn't take any notes, so pardon the super-short tournament report.
Yeah good ol' burn. Game one was a race with painful manabases and I managed to win by a hair's breadth, thanks to goblin guide. Game two I mulled to five, but managed a decent fight, losing by one turn. Game three he mulled to four and it wasn't even a close fight.
Sideboarding: -4 PTE +2 Thalia +2 Boros Charm.
R2 vs. Scapeshift
Game one he tried to stabilize with Obstinate Baloth but I had a PTE to seal the deal. Game two I was stuck on 2 temple gardens with a bunch of red cards in hand and died to his combo. Game 3 I gambled and threw down my guys, and luckily he did not have the anger of the gods in hand. When he finally topdecked it, my 2 Experiment Ones were 4/4 thanks to goyf triggering evolve.
Sideboarding: -2 PTE -1 Smiter +2 Thalia +1 Torpor Orb. As he was on the Baloth Titan plan, I felt that a number of PTEs were still necessary. Hence, I did not board in Boros Charms, even though on hindsight I should have, to save my guys from Anger of the Gods. The correct boarding should have been +3 Boros Charm.
R3 vs. Big Zoo
This is supposed to be an unwinnable matchup, but I got reallllly lucky. Game one my opponent threw down disgusting stuff - domri with goyf fighting to kill my guy, scavenging ooze, Thrun. However, he made a critical error. He used his Domri's -2 to let his Thrun fight my 3/4 goyf. However, this put his domri into the yard, which grew goyf into a 4/5, killing his Thrun. He tried to recover by slamming down a smiter, but I pathed it and pushed through the final points of damage with GCR. Game two he got stuck on one land for a couple of turns, so I killed his Hierarch. When he finally drew a second land it was a kessing wolf run, and when he drew his third land it was too late.
Sideboarding: Nothing. I realized that if I was not so lucky this would have been a terribly lopsided matchup in his favor. Any sideboard suggestions to bring in against Big Zoo?
Good job! As far as siding in against bigger zoos? Its just tough. Fact is you have too options, go faster or try to match big. The latter isnt that good, so things like molten rain and bolting their mana dork is the better options.
Also! against non creature combos I dont side out creatures. I side out helixes, then bolts. Remember bolt is awesome, but at the end of the day creatures do more damage than one burn spell.
I know this is almost certainly very very daft. But in a meta where there may suddenly be an abundance of aggro (ie, now, when everyones in zoo mode) just how daft is Qasali Ambusher in this deck??
No. takes up card slots for something unreliable and doesnt win you the game on cast. Maybe if it cost 2 cmc.
Guide was worse. Couldnt evolve e1 to 3/3 woulda won if I did that.
Vs. Control:
Awesome. He got in 5 points turn 2, and that was great.
vs another control
Awesome. Allowed me to hit him hard often, and rebuild immediately after an engie explosion.
Vs. Hate bears:
extra damage, extra good.
Vs. American Twin
Didnt matter, didnt win.
Vs fae
Better, hit Badd harder witht them for a perfect curved e1 evolve, attack for a lot, bolt, tarmo.
Results: 3rd in the testing... 2nd if I didnt mess up. But I think those testing shows that guide is good. But it makes my deck look a little weird... I dont want to drop too low in removal... but If I up my volcanic fall out to compensate in the side.
I won against the controls, fae, lost vs hatebears because I cracked wrong (my fault really, could have won), and lost vs twin.
Hmm, are the Fallouts for Fae and Affinity?
If you want to run Guide and need something vs. Affinity you could go for Destructive Revelry (which hits both Fae, and Affinity. It's a little worse, but eh.)
You could also go for Fiery Justice.
It blows up Affinity, and is that one sided Wrath you're looking for against them.
Idk about it against Faeries, though. I would think Smiter and Nacatl are enough against Fae.
Also, as far as the Domri Rade argument goes:
I found him not very impressive. He whiffs a lot. In which case he's pay 3 do nothing. If he gets you creatures he's great. But, as many of you may have found out, often, that's not what's going to happen. Against MUs like UWR and Jund where i'm scrounging for board pressure after the first few exchanges i want more creatures. So, my thinking is that a 1x Ranger of Eos would be pretty great to have MD. That's what I'm planning on testing when i have the time. I think it'll be good. 4 mana to search for 6 power worth of creatures will be nice, i think.
Lantern, I have been playtesting with your original deck and I enjoy it a lot. Would you recommend replacing the 3 Domris with a third Helix and 2 Charms?
Also, I have 2 Pilars MB, so would you take those to the sideboard and play a then 4th Path and a 3rd Charm?
It's just been high variance. If a lot of control/ tempo shows up at the upcoming ptq they will go back in. If not, and its twin tron combo, I like the extra burn I get. If its pod, than pillars.
Flex spots are flex spots, realistically.
The fallouts are, yes fae, but more so tokens. Against merfolk it blows up the board leaving at worst, a few lords and master of waves, at best, a single 2/1 fish. Agasnt tokens it can wreck a them completely open for me to swing and kill them. Against delver it destroys their board and makes their best game winning critter, young pyro, really really bad. It hits affinity completely with out hitting eched champ, but gives you a chance to out race it. It can even hurt bad zoos for the people who are insisting on running basicly gruul zoo with nacatl, or ones where they use guides, e1s and steppe lynx.
It may have been brought up already but could we start playing Vexing Devil again? We dropped it because it fed Deathrite Shaman and now that it's banned, maybe we could bring it back?
It fast zoo, yeah. In a more constant top deck zoo, I wouldnt want it because its a "bad top deck" My burning tree list still has 2 of, and my budget list also has 2.
I found him not very impressive. He whiffs a lot. In which case he's pay 3 do nothing. If he gets you creatures he's great. But, as many of you may have found out, often, that's not what's going to happen. Against MUs like UWR and Jund where i'm scrounging for board pressure after the first few exchanges i want more creatures. So, my thinking is that a 1x Ranger of Eos would be pretty great to have MD. That's what I'm planning on testing when i have the time. I think it'll be good. 4 mana to search for 6 power worth of creatures will be nice, i think.
I have been testing Ranger of Eos as a 1 of in my deck recently. I have found that when it resolves, I pretty much just win. But against decks with counters I usually side it out, cause...yeah it just gets countered and there are better cards against them. I am pretty sure I am leaving it in my deck, but leaving it at one for sure.
I went 3-0 today and got first place. I got a buy on the first round and second round was against Affinity. He kept a one land hand, so it was an easy match. I sided in Ancient Grudge and Arc Trail and game 2 was an easy win. Last opponent was playing Merfolk and since he was preparing for Pro Tour BNG, his sideboard was very different. (Thankfully, a lack of Tidebinder Mages.) I won game 1 despite having a REALLY awful start. He used Spreading Seas on my only land and it took a while to draw into more. Second game, Combust did a lot of work and I used Ancient Grudge to get his Vial. Scavenging Ooze became a 5/5 and took it home with a Rancor. Both games Ghor-Clan Rampager's Bloodrush was a finisher.
The only changes for the sideboard was -2 Torpor Orb and +2 Kitchen Finks. I'm wondering what I should sideboard in against control, because I noticed a lot today. The guy who got second was playing American colored control/midrange and there was at least one Delver and one Eternal Command. Overall, excellent night.
I found him not very impressive. He whiffs a lot. In which case he's pay 3 do nothing. If he gets you creatures he's great. But, as many of you may have found out, often, that's not what's going to happen. Against MUs like UWR and Jund where i'm scrounging for board pressure after the first few exchanges i want more creatures. So, my thinking is that a 1x Ranger of Eos would be pretty great to have MD. That's what I'm planning on testing when i have the time. I think it'll be good. 4 mana to search for 6 power worth of creatures will be nice, i think.
I have been testing Ranger of Eos as a 1 of in my deck recently. I have found that when it resolves, I pretty much just win. But against decks with counters I usually side it out, cause...yeah it just gets countered and there are better cards against them. I am pretty sure I am leaving it in my deck, but leaving it at one for sure.
I really want to build a Zoo deck, and I have or can acquire pretty much everything for the deck, except the Tarmogoyfs and maybe one or two Horizon Canopies. So in a list like the following (just copy&pasted Lanterns as an example) what would be a good substitute for Goyfs? I have pretty much everything availble. Jötun Grunt, Stormblood Berserker, Vexing Devil, Scavenging Ooze...?
I went 3-0 today and got first place. I got a buy on the first round
How many players were in this tournament? I'm confused how you can get a bye in round 1, and then win 2 to get 1st place. Usually with an 8 person tournament (3 rounds max) no one has a bye, then anything between 9 and 16 players would be 4 rounds, and if there is an odd number then someone would get a bye.
Either way congrats on the finish. I would caution against removing Torpor Orbs as it slows down Twin and Pod enough that you should be in a position to win by the time they deal with it.
I really want to build a Zoo deck, and I have or can acquire pretty much everything for the deck, except the Tarmogoyfs and maybe one or two Horizon Canopies. So in a list like the following (just copy&pasted Lanterns as an example) what would be a good substitute for Goyfs? I have pretty much everything availble. Jötun Grunt, Stormblood Berserker, Vexing Devil, Scavenging Ooze...?
Also, this isn't a big thing... but because the new site does this weird thing now when you quote someone it changes their deck list to "Lanterns deck list" and that confusing, try to name your decks now. EXAMPLE:
deck /deck
Ghor-Clan Rampager Added in those flex spots, not looking back. Trample, awesome right now. Why? Bitter blossom? Sure, but not enough on its own. Chump blockers? Eh, but thats alright. Up tick in tokens? Again, all of them not enough on its own.
WALLS and souls.ALLTheWallsand the souls that linger. Gross. Pod/s, tron, junk/d/i, hatebears, twin. These are all decks that have started to adapt to zoo, not by killing the creatures (zoo is the most redonant of aggro decks, killing our creatures delay our game, but doesnt stop it) but just slowing us with it.
I say no my friends. We must rush them with blood.
And hey, I like playing mind games. Side note, Ive picked up a good habbit of pausing at start of combat, and asking if they wanna do anything. Most of the time I dont have ghorclan in hand (sometimes not even in my deck, haha!) but it makes them think you do and they do mini panics.
Land-mana flow chart; or "How I didnt get color screwed."
Alright, I think some people porting from gruul to naya are having some trouble with this. Its pretty easy, but you just need to think a little before cracking, especially since we don't have perfect fetches. Least we're not domain.
1. Open your hand, look at your color spread and how much they cost per turn. For example e1 into nactal/ ape costs G then GR. Then Smiter costs GRW, or alternatively bolt helix costs RRW on turn 3. You have to budget out these money (mana costs) before even cracking your first land. Familiarize yourself with the colors in your hand first, don't be hastey, and when you got a good idea of the color weights in your hand move to step 2.
2. Now, You know whats in your hand. In most cases the important color will be red or green, as those are the colors of our creatures and our burn. White is 3rd. Now you have to, and this is crucial, figure out which you'll be doing more of: red or green? If your hand looks like I'll be playing a nacatl, then ape, then clearing the path with the 3 bolt effects I have in my hand, your answer is red. Go to step 2a. If your saying I need to drop E1, then nacatl ape/lion, then tarmo and keep the pressure up, go to step 2b.
2a. Ok, so you wanna ride 1/2 creatures to victory, seems fine, you have to crack your first land for what ever color you need for the creature (G probably) PLUS R. Then your next land should be W, to cover your bases, PLUS R. That way you can double bolt, still cast any 2 cmc creature, and have helix/boros charm mana represented. Move to step 3.
2b. You want to keep layin down the creatures with burn secondary to that, totally cool. Crack your fetch for what ever color you need for your creature, PLUS what ever color is needed for the next line of play. EX1: If you have nacatl in your hand, and ape/loam, crack the first land to be G / R EX2: If you have ape going first, then your choice between loam lion, goblin guide, or voice of resurgence, your first crack should be for W / R, as thats the heavest color. Your next crack should be to get what ever your next color should be what ever color you DONT have, and what ever is next in your creature line up. In EX1, that would be G PLUS W. In EX2: thats G PLUS W. Go to step 3.
3. 3 lands on. here it matters a lot less. You got the two lands you'll be using for most of the game. Now its up to you. You can have more burn mana represented, grab basics, or finish off your duals. Option 1 is great if your dropping creatures like in 2a, because thats your secondary game. Id probably also get green in that case too because you may have to cast left over critters. Option two is good if you want to ensure the health of your creatures and keep casting them. Keep nacatl big, keep ape happy, keep casting things in your hand if a blood moon happens. I wouldn't do this against a deck where I expect path (hatebears/american control) but I would if I expected nonbasic hate (delver/moon effects). Option 3 is the default. If option 1/2 doesnt really matter, or not up your ally, or you dont know what to do, safest thing is to fetch whatever completes your dual set. Go to helpful tips:
Helpful tips
- Tectonic edge and ghost quarter are cards that get played. Mostly in hatebears and in control, as well as 2 color midrange or knight midrange. Maybe you want to hold the 4th land, maybe you dont mind them blowing it up because you can still funtion on 2/3 lands, while they can not. Against hatebears its more annoying, aganist control, dont worry about it. the games going to go late (if it does, that sucks, sorry.) but you'll have 6-7 lands out. it wont matter. Just prioritize having all colors. they will go for your red first, then green, then white in that order, because they want to cut you off from burn, then creatures.
- Hatebears. ALWAYS CRACK YOUR FETCH FIRST. They will have arbitors and mindcensers. Get your mana, doesn't matter if they cut you off turn 3 as much as it does turn 2. Just be aggressive here and dont let them have time to set up their taxes. They will block with their taxers if their life gets low enough.
-Blood Moon. Delver and twin play this. Most mono red decks will have it, from rdw to big red. Even zoo uses it sometimes. In most of those cases it is comepletely ok to fetch a forest before hand. In the case of delver, they BANK on the turn 3 blood moon to stop you. If you crack a forest it screws their game up.
-Imperfect Fetches. Listen, land screw/ color screw happens, don't be hard on yourself. Try to get gruul colors, if you cant get white. Most of your creatures are gruul, so being able to cast them than a helix or path is usually more important.
- ALWAY SAVE MESA. If you're looking at a hand with a fetch land that isnt arid mesa, and one that is... Save arid mesa. There are expections to this rule, like if your following my flow chart above and you have to lead with it, but if you don't, DONT. Remember, all of our fetchs, sans mesa, are a little limp... They can fetch, but they cant perfectly fetch. Arid mesa can. It lets you change your game plan on the fly.
-One land hand. Short suggestion is, DONT DO IT. Yes we have a lot of one drops, casting one per turn, not impressive. If legacy is a 1 cmc format, Modern is a 2 cmc format. 2 is the magic number. Mull. Now, if your own the draw, you have 2 nacatls and have 22 lands in the deck, eh, not ganna stop you, but its still risky. Missing the turn 2 land drop, ok. missing the turn 3 one for a second land, you're probably dead.
-4 land hand. Also, probably shouldn't keep. Its better than a 1 land hand, since 2-3 lands are perfect, but you need to make sure you have full action for turn 1/2. If the opener is 4 lands, e1, nactal, ape, it is keepable, because you can do stuff turn 1-2. If its 4 lands, nacatl, ghorclan, smiter, its not a good hand probably.
Chill SO thats the flow chart. Made it as detailed as possible for you guys. Doing this over the years I have minimized my color screw. Any questions? Should I add this to the OP?
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Goblin Guide
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Helix
2 Boros Charm
4 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Pillar of Flame
2 Combust
3 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Stony Silence
1 Volcanic Fallout
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Boros Charm
4 damage - 1 extra damage, but you miss out on the gain 3
Double strike - only smiter is really ever bigger than 3 power, unless you charm + rampager. So, 3 damage + gain 3 can go straight to the face.
Indestructible - Unless they have firespout or something MD AND you are saving mana open for it, then you are protecting 1 creature, in which case, helix would be one swing and gain 3.
That's my line of thinking (which may be wrong), just getting some discussion going.
I've also been wondering 1 canopy and 3 stomping ground vs 2 canopy 2 grounds. Again, the 1x Consistency argument comes into play, but I'm not a huge fan of seeing canopy too often. Also, 2 tarns vs 2 flats. Not sure how much difference that will make in practice.
The list we're testing contains:
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Kird Ape
2 Loam Lion
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Aven Mindcensor
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
1 Boros Charm
4 Verdant Catacomb
4 Arid Mesa
2 Marsh Flats
2 Temple Garden
2 Stomping Grounds
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
Most of the Tron matches were easily killed as long as we had a couple guys out on turn 1 or 2. After that it was just burn burn burn. We tested firespout in Tron to test the resilience of the deck but it felt pretty slow and we usually got enough damage in before turn 3 that it didn't really matter if we lost 2 creatures. Steppe Lynx is especially good and can usually get anywhere from 4-8 damage in before he dies to a pyroclasm or the like. Mindcensor is a blowout. Check the video from tonight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PPX4raMSdw
The Fae matches were downhill battles for Zoo because the multitude of creatures and instant-speed removal was a lot for spellstutter sprite counters and mistbinds' champion. Volcanic fallout is just the icing on the cake. What you don't want to see is a Mistbind Clique on the table but it usually sits and blocks rather than attacks and will die to path most of the time. Just keep the pressure on and the board clear and it becomes way easier. Ghor-Clan Rampager is a house and if he resolves around mid-game I'm not sure if fae can win.
Overall very impressed with the main decklist but I've been pulling so many cards in and out I can't settle for a solidified list yet.
I didn't take any notes, so pardon the super-short tournament report.
4 Experiment One
4 Goblin Guide
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
Spells:12
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Helix
4 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Marsh Flats
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pillar of Flame
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Boros Charm
2 Combust
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Torpor Orb
2 Volcanic Fallout
R1 vs. Burn
Yeah good ol' burn. Game one was a race with painful manabases and I managed to win by a hair's breadth, thanks to goblin guide. Game two I mulled to five, but managed a decent fight, losing by one turn. Game three he mulled to four and it wasn't even a close fight.
Sideboarding: -4 PTE +2 Thalia +2 Boros Charm.
R2 vs. Scapeshift
Game one he tried to stabilize with Obstinate Baloth but I had a PTE to seal the deal. Game two I was stuck on 2 temple gardens with a bunch of red cards in hand and died to his combo. Game 3 I gambled and threw down my guys, and luckily he did not have the anger of the gods in hand. When he finally topdecked it, my 2 Experiment Ones were 4/4 thanks to goyf triggering evolve.
Sideboarding: -2 PTE -1 Smiter +2 Thalia +1 Torpor Orb. As he was on the Baloth Titan plan, I felt that a number of PTEs were still necessary. Hence, I did not board in Boros Charms, even though on hindsight I should have, to save my guys from Anger of the Gods. The correct boarding should have been +3 Boros Charm.
R3 vs. Big Zoo
This is supposed to be an unwinnable matchup, but I got reallllly lucky. Game one my opponent threw down disgusting stuff - domri with goyf fighting to kill my guy, scavenging ooze, Thrun. However, he made a critical error. He used his Domri's -2 to let his Thrun fight my 3/4 goyf. However, this put his domri into the yard, which grew goyf into a 4/5, killing his Thrun. He tried to recover by slamming down a smiter, but I pathed it and pushed through the final points of damage with GCR. Game two he got stuck on one land for a couple of turns, so I killed his Hierarch. When he finally drew a second land it was a kessing wolf run, and when he drew his third land it was too late.
Sideboarding: Nothing. I realized that if I was not so lucky this would have been a terribly lopsided matchup in his favor. Any sideboard suggestions to bring in against Big Zoo?
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
Yeah, the 1 extra reach is pretty big. But if I face less removal as well, Id rather have the pillar. Its an easy switch. for now, protecting myself from wipes is bigger.
Apperently the guy who got 4th place in the gp trial loved it against american control, but he still didnt know if he liked it or not. I'd rather have boros charm, for now.
I'm not a fan of steepe because she can get removed so easily, even if she does a lot of damage... that being said, you do at least have knight in there because she does make it better. Still not a huge fan of knight in the small zoo either
Fae is going to be a pretty easy matchup, as everyone can see so far. I've only had 2 loss to fae over ALL my testing and one was to mana screw, the other because Badd is an awesome deck builder and made a fae list that was really tight... And had the splintertwin combo in it.
and mana base I think. Our spells are the only thing different. Its been running smooth.
Good job! As far as siding in against bigger zoos? Its just tough. Fact is you have too options, go faster or try to match big. The latter isnt that good, so things like molten rain and bolting their mana dork is the better options.
Also! against non creature combos I dont side out creatures. I side out helixes, then bolts. Remember bolt is awesome, but at the end of the day creatures do more damage than one burn spell.
No. takes up card slots for something unreliable and doesnt win you the game on cast. Maybe if it cost 2 cmc.
Legacy: Strawberry Shortcake, Aggro Loam, DnT+b
Modern: Devoted Karn
Vintage: Survival
And Id say 26 is the MIN. However, 28 is really good, 32 is the max where you want to be.
Although the burn sucked vs UWR (multiply flashbacked Lightning Helix is hard to beat) anyways.
Dont assume the curse filter works anymore... No warning given because it caught me off guard first time I saw that happen...
Legacy: Strawberry Shortcake, Aggro Loam, DnT+b
Modern: Devoted Karn
Vintage: Survival
Hmm, are the Fallouts for Fae and Affinity?
If you want to run Guide and need something vs. Affinity you could go for Destructive Revelry (which hits both Fae, and Affinity. It's a little worse, but eh.)
You could also go for Fiery Justice.
It blows up Affinity, and is that one sided Wrath you're looking for against them.
Idk about it against Faeries, though. I would think Smiter and Nacatl are enough against Fae.
Also, as far as the Domri Rade argument goes:
I found him not very impressive. He whiffs a lot. In which case he's pay 3 do nothing. If he gets you creatures he's great. But, as many of you may have found out, often, that's not what's going to happen. Against MUs like UWR and Jund where i'm scrounging for board pressure after the first few exchanges i want more creatures. So, my thinking is that a 1x Ranger of Eos would be pretty great to have MD. That's what I'm planning on testing when i have the time. I think it'll be good. 4 mana to search for 6 power worth of creatures will be nice, i think.
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Also, I have 2 Pilars MB, so would you take those to the sideboard and play a then 4th Path and a 3rd Charm?
4 Experiment One
2 Loam Lion
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
2 Boros Charm
2 Pillar of Flame
3 Lightning Helix
Lands:20
4 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
This is what it would look like if the Domri changes were made, I kinda like taking the Domri's out, but I am partially torn on taking out the Pillars
Flex spots are flex spots, realistically.
The fallouts are, yes fae, but more so tokens. Against merfolk it blows up the board leaving at worst, a few lords and master of waves, at best, a single 2/1 fish. Agasnt tokens it can wreck a them completely open for me to swing and kill them. Against delver it destroys their board and makes their best game winning critter, young pyro, really really bad. It hits affinity completely with out hitting eched champ, but gives you a chance to out race it. It can even hurt bad zoos for the people who are insisting on running basicly gruul zoo with nacatl, or ones where they use guides, e1s and steppe lynx.
I have been testing Ranger of Eos as a 1 of in my deck recently. I have found that when it resolves, I pretty much just win. But against decks with counters I usually side it out, cause...yeah it just gets countered and there are better cards against them. I am pretty sure I am leaving it in my deck, but leaving it at one for sure.
The only changes for the sideboard was -2 Torpor Orb and +2 Kitchen Finks. I'm wondering what I should sideboard in against control, because I noticed a lot today. The guy who got second was playing American colored control/midrange and there was at least one Delver and one Eternal Command. Overall, excellent night.
RGGruul Aggro
WSoul Sisters
WBTokens
BUGRRestore Balance
BMono-Black Infect
EDH:
RGWMayael, the Anima
GWURoon of the Hidden Realm
BDrana, Kalastria Bloodchief
I knew i saw someone running it before.
I'm glad you've had success with it. =]
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I really want to build a Zoo deck, and I have or can acquire pretty much everything for the deck, except the Tarmogoyfs and maybe one or two Horizon Canopies. So in a list like the following (just copy&pasted Lanterns as an example) what would be a good substitute for Goyfs? I have pretty much everything availble. Jötun Grunt, Stormblood Berserker, Vexing Devil, Scavenging Ooze...?
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Goblin Guide
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
3 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Helix
2 Boros Charm
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
How many players were in this tournament? I'm confused how you can get a bye in round 1, and then win 2 to get 1st place. Usually with an 8 person tournament (3 rounds max) no one has a bye, then anything between 9 and 16 players would be 4 rounds, and if there is an odd number then someone would get a bye.
Either way congrats on the finish. I would caution against removing Torpor Orbs as it slows down Twin and Pod enough that you should be in a position to win by the time they deal with it.
In your build you are probobly best to play Hyper Aggro version with BTE and Boars along with Scavenging.
Current Big Event wins for Nayas:
GPT
top 4: Small Zoo
Win: Naya midrange.
I think thats it so far.