A three mana bolt magnet is a three mana bolt magnet.
Just saying.
True, but it is just seems wrong for Goyf to be in this deck when he can only grow to 3/4 at most without the opponent's cards. While that is still very efficient, I guess I'm just not a fan of it.
What? By the time Goyf is attacking he should be a 3/4. If he's not then your opponent has done nothing all game. And that's fine by me. I've never ever thought to myself, "Darn, I wish i had drawn a Flinthoof Boar instead of this stupid Tarmogoyf!" If you find yourself thinking that you're not playing the deck correctly.
4x Goyf is optimal in every single Zoo list.
If you have statistics to back up your point, by all means show me some numbers.
But your anecdotal conjecture that Goyf is bad won't convince anybody here who has actually played the deck.
After 10 games vs American... i found Domri mediocre....
When he's feeding my hand, he's awesome... but still i managed to win games via pressure only... don't need him...
Guess i'm cutting it from my deck...
Thoughts?
I think Chandra, Pyromaster could be better than Domri.
I know even when i'm running the singleton Domri it can often force me to mulligan (getting a creature light hand). And i never really am at a point in the game where i'm praying to a Domri off the top.
I think you're fine cutting him. I think it's more of a flex spot/personal preference type of thing. I don't think an argument could be made that he's optimal in the list until the meta shapes up. And even then, I, personally, will take a lot of convincing that he's optimal in the list.
I have finished watching the First Video, thanks Lantern. Some feedback:
1st game nothing to do about it, that Master was too much. A path might have changed the game but well, happens.
2nd game vs merfolk you fetch sacred foundry with verdant catacombs. As he droped down to 2 you also could have just casted Volcanic Fallout. He cant counter it, so you dont give him a draw or anything
On game 3 I think I would have kept the Rampager in hand. He had the mana for Master of Waves and could have flashed in 2 lords or play a lord and flash in two other ones. That will skrew your game right there, cause Domri will not be that great at this point and you have to fear a huge swing since you were only on 10 life at this point.
I dont know if those 2 Domris were that superior than additional Lightning Helixes instead but they worked out for you so np.
Ok, moving forward to the second video
Edit: Video 2 (speed):
Ok, question about Storm game 2: You run out Kird Ape first. I can understand that if you follow up with Goblin Guide and Vexing Devil to put the pressure on. If you want to run Thalia though, why not lead with the Goblin and deal 4 dmg by turn 2 instead of 2 from the ape? Safing the ape would also help E1 more later on. On turn 3, why Experiment One and Kird Ape instead of Burning Tree into both?
As far as video one goes, you got to know I play a little different then in really real life. I'm a lot more hastey in real life and when testing a deck I play things out more to see what draws would be and what not. As far as game 2 goes, yeah you're right. I'm just guide dumb.
Yeah, that was probably dumb too. In retrosepct it was the better play. would have had him to 5, if I did all that, much better chance at winning. I'll shoot that one under stupid thinking as well.
Hm just read the article on channel fireball where Caleb Durwald brewed up a list: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-br-hype/
- 21 lands instead of 20
- he doesnt think Zoo will be Tier 1
- no E1, no Goblin Guide, no Smiter / KotR, no Domri
- Mindcensor and Thalia Mainboard
- 3 Grim Lavamancer Mainboard
Tbh I dont like Mindcensor Mainboard. I dont even like the Thalias there. I think the deck misses its Graveyardhate too, but otherwise the Sideboard looks interesting. I also disagree that Zoo will not be Tier 1, but thats mb due to bias
Thoughts?
I looking forward to a list of Kibler, I am a fan of this Naya dude.
No offense, I like Durward, but that article has a ton of bad calls in my book. I've been very clear in the fact that I think you either play aggro zoo or you play midrange, or you play consistency, or you play speed. You dont want to mix it, because then you unstream line your deck.
With thalias and Mindcensor main he's doing just that.
Heres my problems with this article put very bluntly.
1. He says punishing fire was the reason zoo saw play last time... except punishing fire was there to kill other weenie decks. Aka you ran this in your zoo or you lost to other zoos running this. That's the truth, and pros said that too. In legacy zoo cant really exist because that combo was everywhere.
2. Finks and helix saw play prior to the ban, this is nothing new. Finks saw more play because in the touri where zoo was banned, people were trying to break jund, and there was a million deathcloud decks, all ran 4 finks.
3. He talks about fink being a problem, makes no reference to pillar of flame. Edit: till side.
4. Talks about how he main decks mind censer because lack of side space and he wants to cover all his problems. I have a different Idea, have a good main deck, so you dont die to inconsistency. It may seem "Dumb" or unintelligent, but having a race option as plan a is really important. Alot of decks you shouldnt win againt you do because you just go faster.
5.Ghor-Clan Rampager- Yes. We use it to make finks less deadly, turning it into single chump, no life gained, no removal. But it really shines vs token/weenie chumps and to kill big midrange blockers like goyf or smiter. He undervalues that card a ton.
6. He talks about how mindcensers good because you can hold it til after a wipe. Two words, boros charm. Against a deck that has wipes you shouldnt be over extending unless you figure you can win/ have boros charm, and casting a 2/1 after a wipe is hardly what I'd call recovery.
7. Thalias first strike is hardly relevant. If I have a 3/3 E1 that cost me 1, vs a 2/1 first striker (ability aside, only talking combat here) how does she survive encounters e1 does not? I can think of very very few creatures that are X=3+ and are x/2 that survives. Delver? But thats what the burn is for. And in most games Id rather be attacking for 3, and have a regen clause.
8. Pillar is a 1 cmc shock. People run tar fire and seal in the main, why not this? It's just stupid to call it inefficient for all it does. I can agree about using it in the side.
9. Thrun. Sure, as a top end, but I still dont like it. And 4 voices in the main just seem so weird. I understand its good against control, but boros charm just seems better against that wipe hes preparing for.
10. Combust is a good choice. Haha. I can really agree with him there.
Point blank, the guy is a mostly legacy guy, and I dont think this is completely aimed for the modern meta. Pod is a big concern for us, and thats why pillars can be used in the main. It looks alot like legacy zoo, where they only use loams, kirds, and nacatls because they cant depend on e1 because of its counters (jace bounce, miracled termanus, echoing truth, on top of all the other exile effects ect ect.
Articles a fine read, and you can go with what he says if you like, but I think he makes a lot of bad choices, and hasn't tested it. Seems like a rough deck theory than a tested list.
Just thought I'd share some awesome sideboard tech for mirror or creature-based matchups.
Play Fiery Justice. It's basically a one-sided wrath, and in matchups like the mirror, them gaining 5 life really isn't that big of a deal since it's typically a battle for superior board state. Against Affinity, it's a complete house, and it's obviously good vs. decks like Hatebears or Birthing Pod variants.
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Hm just read the article on channel fireball where Caleb Durwald brewed up a list: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-br-hype/
- 21 lands instead of 20
- he doesnt think Zoo will be Tier 1
- no E1, no Goblin Guide, no Smiter / KotR, no Domri
- Mindcensor and Thalia Mainboard
- 3 Grim Lavamancer Mainboard
Tbh I dont like Mindcensor Mainboard. I dont even like the Thalias there. I think the deck misses its Graveyardhate too, but otherwise the Sideboard looks interesting. I also disagree that Zoo will not be Tier 1, but thats mb due to bias
Thoughts?
I looking forward to a list of Kibler, I am a fan of this Naya dude.
Well he's maindecking 3 Lavamancers, so he's at least doing something right!
I would like to use Lantern's Deck in a tournament tomorrow, the last one in the first post, with Deathrite Shaman, but Deathrite Shaman is banned. What are going to be the replacment for it? I would like to use Wild Nacatl, could this replace Deathrite Shaman, or is there other ways I should implement Wild Nacatl? Many thanks in advance!
Just thought I'd share some awesome sideboard tech for mirror or creature-based matchups.
Play Fiery Justice. It's basically a one-sided wrath, and in matchups like the mirror, them gaining 5 life really isn't that big of a deal since it's typically a battle for superior board state. Against Affinity, it's a complete house, and it's obviously good vs. decks like Hatebears or Birthing Pod variants.
Grove of the Burnwillows + Kavu Predator incoming This might actually be a good tech in the current meta (souls, BB tokens, fae, nearly all of pods creatures, nearly all of GW hatebears creatures, nearly all of affinity's creatures) because it can reliably get rid of smaller chump blockers, utility and big creatures alike. Furthermore the deck is creature-centric, therefore a trampling guy is always welcome and it is on colour with Grove.
Lantern, what is your professional opinion on this matter?
Philip
Lolz. I doubt I'm a "pro." But yeah, its been done before. Back in the day (punishing fire days pre banned) I think a canadian team did it and almost top 16ed. It was actually kinda impressive. Basicly its the same as normal zoo, but its removal had 4 punishing fires added on to 4 helix, 4 bolts, 3 paths, 2 firey justice, and it did grove. The problem is that punishing fire was the glue of that deck. you could still use it, butttt it would lack that cancel out life gain in punish. 2 life gain cards, firey and land, and 2 damage source, fire and kavu.
I would like to use Lantern's Deck in a tournament tomorrow, the last one in the first post, with Deathrite Shaman, but Deathrite Shaman is banned. What are going to be the replacment for it? I would like to use Wild Nacatl, could this replace Deathrite Shaman, or is there other ways I should implement Wild Nacatl? Many thanks in advance!
Just thought I'd share some awesome sideboard tech for mirror or creature-based matchups.
Play Fiery Justice. It's basically a one-sided wrath, and in matchups like the mirror, them gaining 5 life really isn't that big of a deal since it's typically a battle for superior board state. Against Affinity, it's a complete house, and it's obviously good vs. decks like Hatebears or Birthing Pod variants.
Grove of the Burnwillows + Kavu Predator incoming This might actually be a good tech in the current meta (souls, BB tokens, fae, nearly all of pods creatures, nearly all of GW hatebears creatures, nearly all of affinity's creatures) because it can reliably get rid of smaller chump blockers, utility and big creatures alike. Furthermore the deck is creature-centric, therefore a trampling guy is always welcome and it is on colour with Grove.
Lantern, what is your professional opinion on this matter?
Philip
Lolz. I doubt I'm a "pro." But yeah, its been done before. Back in the day (punishing fire days pre banned) I think a canadian team did it and almost top 16ed. It was actually kinda impressive. Basicly its the same as normal zoo, but its removal had 4 punishing fires added on to 4 helix, 4 bolts, 3 paths, 2 firey justice, and it did grove. The problem is that punishing fire was the glue of that deck. you could still use it, butttt it would lack that cancel out life gain in punish. 2 life gain cards, firey and land, and 2 damage source, fire and kavu.
I would like to use Lantern's Deck in a tournament tomorrow, the last one in the first post, with Deathrite Shaman, but Deathrite Shaman is banned. What are going to be the replacment for it? I would like to use Wild Nacatl, could this replace Deathrite Shaman, or is there other ways I should implement Wild Nacatl? Many thanks in advance!
I'll be on for a bit longer waiting for part 3 to upload. What list are you refering too? Can you quote it?
I would like to go with one of your sample lists in the end of the primer, but I would like to make room for Wild Nacatl, also I will like to use Tarmogoyf. Could you please give me an advice on which deck and how to implement the mentioned cards. I will play my first Modern game tomorrow and it is a tournament. I have experience from both Legacy and Standard, so I think I will manage it alright or better. Thanks!
3. He talks about fink being a problem, makes no reference to pillar of flame. Edit: till side.
4. Talks about how he main decks mind censer because lack of side space and he wants to cover all his problems. I have a different Idea, have a good main deck, so you dont die to inconsistency. It may seem "Dumb" or unintelligent, but having a race option as plan a is really important. Alot of decks you shouldnt win againt you do because you just go faster.
5.Ghor-Clan Rampager- Yes. We use it to make finks less deadly, turning it into single chump, no life gained, no removal. But it really shines vs token/weenie chumps and to kill big midrange blockers like goyf or smiter. He undervalues that card a ton.
In amongst this as well, I think he undervalues Pridemage:
"While it doesn't lock the opponent out like a Meddling Mage or Gaddock Teeg, the deck doesn't need to shut someone down so much as buy a turn or two to attack and force through damage. My problem with most hate bears is that they're narrow and provide unimpressive clocks. Qasali Pridemage needs an artifact or enchantment to turn it on"
There's also the other side to Pridemage where it's turned on by attacking with any creature solo. I'm in the market for sending a Kird Ape to 3/4 into a 3/2 Kitchen Finks. Sounds a lot like buying that turn or two, just in the future and relieves some of the pressure to have and spend path or pillar right now.
Plus exalted plays really well with Ghor-Clan Rampager. Your opponent thinks they're getting you by letting you attack (planning to burn out your 1 attacker with exalted on stack) but they're really just turning on Rampager. The beautiful thing about zoo is these situations come up a lot, because against fair decks you can settle into a rhythm of having to make space for attacks and managing the swing back. It looks like a perfectly innocent play and sets a trap.
I would like to use Lantern's Deck in a tournament tomorrow, the last one in the first post, with Deathrite Shaman, but Deathrite Shaman is banned. What are going to be the replacment for it? I would like to use Wild Nacatl, could this replace Deathrite Shaman, or is there other ways I should implement Wild Nacatl? Many thanks in advance!
Oh, the really old lists on the Opening post? Allllll of them neeeds to be updated, as they are really out of date. Again, these are the lists I've been saying get my vote:
**Nacatl:** A beat stick. No need to keep going on.
**Ape/loam:** after a lot of testing I found that 10 X/3 are the amount of one cmcs to constantly evolve e1 into a 3/3 turn 1 with out burning tree. 12 was too much, 8 was too little, so 6 is the right number for these
**E1:** It may seem like a gimmick, but it's not when the whole deck evolves him. He is t1 a regening nacatl, and after that can still be evolved in his deck in a turn. Having 8 nacatls in one deck is insane, trust me.
**goyf:** also a beat stick, but survives bolt.
**Smiter:** Better than knight in this version of the deck. Knight can get big, but its yard depended, and land dependent. In a deck that wanted only 20 lands, he is very good. Also he comes in against the control/ tempo decks nicely. Controls early plan is to burn your 1 cmcs, counter your 2+. this stops them dead in their tracks, I've played enough to know its better.
**Ghor-Clan:** He is a 4 of. He does everything Zoo is having problems with and more. Zoo's weaknesses are delays like spell skite, finks, and timely reinforcements. This tramples over wall/chumps, while also cancling their life gain. It also Keeps your guys alive against big blockers like goyf and finks. It also can be used after a wipe to recover board position. Even against combo it acts as a 2 mana burn spell. Just play smart, dont get 2 for 1ed and you'll be fine.
On a side note of that guy, it also makes for good mind games, you pause at every entering combat, and it forces bad plays at times like a guy bolting something worried, then you cast goyf with no fear of a counter.
**Bolt/path/helix/Pillar:** the numbers can change, but its all on importance. Bolt is everything you want, so its a 4 of. Path covers your bases, 3 of. Pillar and helix split for aggro and finks.
**Domri:** you have 26 in main deck, meaning he draws you a card around 1/2 or 1/3, both still good so long as you hit 1. Also he can count as removal, meaning hes a good main board inclusion. Easily sided out for more specific hate, he covers all your bases. Now I will admit to saying I might want to cut him for boros charms. It could be a big difference.
**Lands:** Trial and error over a year for the correct amount. Horizons there for filler 2, but they draw later on in the game.
Side can change, but these have been most helpful so far. If I get the boros to main, that frees up slots for better removal, either pillars or fallouts.
Again, I really would love if you want to jump in the forum sometime to chat. I've been doing a video series on my testing, and I post that up there.
3. He talks about fink being a problem, makes no reference to pillar of flame. Edit: till side.
4. Talks about how he main decks mind censer because lack of side space and he wants to cover all his problems. I have a different Idea, have a good main deck, so you dont die to inconsistency. It may seem "Dumb" or unintelligent, but having a race option as plan a is really important. Alot of decks you shouldnt win againt you do because you just go faster.
5.Ghor-Clan Rampager- Yes. We use it to make finks less deadly, turning it into single chump, no life gained, no removal. But it really shines vs token/weenie chumps and to kill big midrange blockers like goyf or smiter. He undervalues that card a ton.
I agree.
In amongst this as well, I think he undervalues Pridemage:
"While it doesn't lock the opponent out like a Meddling Mage or Gaddock Teeg, the deck doesn't need to shut someone down so much as buy a turn or two to attack and force through damage. My problem with most hate bears is that they're narrow and provide unimpressive clocks. Qasali Pridemage needs an artifact or enchantment to turn it on"
There's also the other side to Pridemage where it's turned on by attacking with any creature solo. I'm in the market for sending a Kird Ape to 3/4 into a 3/2 Kitchen Finks. Sounds a lot like buying that turn or two, just in the future and relieves some of the pressure to have and spend path or pillar right now.
Plus exalted plays really well with Ghor-Clan Rampager. Your opponent thinks they're getting you by letting you attack (planning to burn out your 1 attacker with exalted on stack) but they're really just turning on Rampager. The beautiful thing about zoo is these situations come up a lot, because against fair decks you can settle into a rhythm of having to make space for attacks and managing the swing back. It looks like a perfectly innocent play and sets a trap.
Here is my take, obviously I have been using Lantern's deck as a fundament. Please give me your options, I have got room for Wild Nacatl and Tarmogoyf. I am unsure on my landbase as well. Also the sideboard need some revision (as I have not played Modern, I am not sure what to have here...). Look forward to your views and help.
And of course I messed up with adding fetch lands that are not allowed in Modern (I guess that happen when a Legacy player try to go Modern). Got a little carried away I am going with the deck Lantern kindly posted accompanied with excellent and insightful advice. Thanks again Lantern!
Oh, the really old lists on the Opening post? Allllll of them neeeds to be updated, as they are really out of date. Again, these are the lists I've been saying get my vote:
**Nacatl:** A beat stick. No need to keep going on.
**Ape/loam:** after a lot of testing I found that 10 X/3 are the amount of one cmcs to constantly evolve e1 into a 3/3 turn 1 with out burning tree. 12 was too much, 8 was too little, so 6 is the right number for these
**E1:** It may seem like a gimmick, but it's not when the whole deck evolves him. He is t1 a regening nacatl, and after that can still be evolved in his deck in a turn. Having 8 nacatls in one deck is insane, trust me.
**goyf:** also a beat stick, but survives bolt.
**Smiter:** Better than knight in this version of the deck. Knight can get big, but its yard depended, and land dependent. In a deck that wanted only 20 lands, he is very good. Also he comes in against the control/ tempo decks nicely. Controls early plan is to burn your 1 cmcs, counter your 2+. this stops them dead in their tracks, I've played enough to know its better.
**Ghor-Clan:** He is a 4 of. He does everything Zoo is having problems with and more. Zoo's weaknesses are delays like spell skite, finks, and timely reinforcements. This tramples over wall/chumps, while also cancling their life gain. It also Keeps your guys alive against big blockers like goyf and finks. It also can be used after a wipe to recover board position. Even against combo it acts as a 2 mana burn spell. Just play smart, dont get 2 for 1ed and you'll be fine.
On a side note of that guy, it also makes for good mind games, you pause at every entering combat, and it forces bad plays at times like a guy bolting something worried, then you cast goyf with no fear of a counter.
**Bolt/path/helix/Pillar:** the numbers can change, but its all on importance. Bolt is everything you want, so its a 4 of. Path covers your bases, 3 of. Pillar and helix split for aggro and finks.
**Domri:** you have 26 in main deck, meaning he draws you a card around 1/2 or 1/3, both still good so long as you hit 1. Also he can count as removal, meaning hes a good main board inclusion. Easily sided out for more specific hate, he covers all your bases. Now I will admit to saying I might want to cut him for boros charms. It could be a big difference.
**Lands:** Trial and error over a year for the correct amount. Horizons there for filler 2, but they draw later on in the game.
Side can change, but these have been most helpful so far. If I get the boros to main, that frees up slots for better removal, either pillars or fallouts.
Again, I really would love if you want to jump in the forum sometime to chat. I've been doing a video series on my testing, and I post that up there.
I haven't been keeping up with the last couple of pages, so it may sound weird asking this, but why are we talking about Mana Leak, Serum Visions, and Geist in a Zoo premier?
Oh, the really old lists on the Opening post? Allllll of them neeeds to be updated, as they are really out of date. Again, these are the lists I've been saying get my vote:
**Nacatl:** A beat stick. No need to keep going on.
**Ape/loam:** after a lot of testing I found that 10 X/3 are the amount of one cmcs to constantly evolve e1 into a 3/3 turn 1 with out burning tree. 12 was too much, 8 was too little, so 6 is the right number for these
**E1:** It may seem like a gimmick, but it's not when the whole deck evolves him. He is t1 a regening nacatl, and after that can still be evolved in his deck in a turn. Having 8 nacatls in one deck is insane, trust me.
**goyf:** also a beat stick, but survives bolt.
**Smiter:** Better than knight in this version of the deck. Knight can get big, but its yard depended, and land dependent. In a deck that wanted only 20 lands, he is very good. Also he comes in against the control/ tempo decks nicely. Controls early plan is to burn your 1 cmcs, counter your 2+. this stops them dead in their tracks, I've played enough to know its better.
**Ghor-Clan:** He is a 4 of. He does everything Zoo is having problems with and more. Zoo's weaknesses are delays like spell skite, finks, and timely reinforcements. This tramples over wall/chumps, while also cancling their life gain. It also Keeps your guys alive against big blockers like goyf and finks. It also can be used after a wipe to recover board position. Even against combo it acts as a 2 mana burn spell. Just play smart, dont get 2 for 1ed and you'll be fine.
On a side note of that guy, it also makes for good mind games, you pause at every entering combat, and it forces bad plays at times like a guy bolting something worried, then you cast goyf with no fear of a counter.
**Bolt/path/helix/Pillar:** the numbers can change, but its all on importance. Bolt is everything you want, so its a 4 of. Path covers your bases, 3 of. Pillar and helix split for aggro and finks.
**Domri:** you have 26 in main deck, meaning he draws you a card around 1/2 or 1/3, both still good so long as you hit 1. Also he can count as removal, meaning hes a good main board inclusion. Easily sided out for more specific hate, he covers all your bases. Now I will admit to saying I might want to cut him for boros charms. It could be a big difference.
**Lands:** Trial and error over a year for the correct amount. Horizons there for filler 2, but they draw later on in the game.
Side can change, but these have been most helpful so far. If I get the boros to main, that frees up slots for better removal, either pillars or fallouts.
Again, I really would love if you want to jump in the forum sometime to chat. I've been doing a video series on my testing, and I post that up there.
And hey, good luck!
Is the sideboard the same for both of these decks?
No... its jsut the formating of this new site stinks.
Side
3 Boros Charm
2 Stony Silence
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Molten Rain
2 Vines of Vastwood
About the videos. I think youtube is being mean with my videos and the music in them... Stupidddd.... Might be late getting them out.
We are looking forward to your videos, hope YouTube will be more nice to you Thank you for helping my son "emeraldforest" with your advice and decklist. I really appreciate that
Course anytime. Kiblars keepin his mouth shut tight about modern nacatls, so someones got to do the heavy lifting for a while...
If youtube doesnt unrepeal my stupid Jurrasic park theme in the video in like 2 days, I'll be re doing them. I still have the footage
Cool!
Lantern, could you please explain how to use the sideboard, what to side in and out, when and against what. That would be really helpful. Many thanks in advance!
What? By the time Goyf is attacking he should be a 3/4. If he's not then your opponent has done nothing all game. And that's fine by me. I've never ever thought to myself, "Darn, I wish i had drawn a Flinthoof Boar instead of this stupid Tarmogoyf!" If you find yourself thinking that you're not playing the deck correctly.
4x Goyf is optimal in every single Zoo list.
If you have statistics to back up your point, by all means show me some numbers.
But your anecdotal conjecture that Goyf is bad won't convince anybody here who has actually played the deck.
I think Chandra, Pyromaster could be better than Domri.
I know even when i'm running the singleton Domri it can often force me to mulligan (getting a creature light hand). And i never really am at a point in the game where i'm praying to a Domri off the top.
I think you're fine cutting him. I think it's more of a flex spot/personal preference type of thing. I don't think an argument could be made that he's optimal in the list until the meta shapes up. And even then, I, personally, will take a lot of convincing that he's optimal in the list.
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As far as video one goes, you got to know I play a little different then in really real life. I'm a lot more hastey in real life and when testing a deck I play things out more to see what draws would be and what not. As far as game 2 goes, yeah you're right. I'm just guide dumb.
Yeah, that was probably dumb too. In retrosepct it was the better play. would have had him to 5, if I did all that, much better chance at winning. I'll shoot that one under stupid thinking as well.
No offense, I like Durward, but that article has a ton of bad calls in my book. I've been very clear in the fact that I think you either play aggro zoo or you play midrange, or you play consistency, or you play speed. You dont want to mix it, because then you unstream line your deck.
With thalias and Mindcensor main he's doing just that.
Heres my problems with this article put very bluntly.
1. He says punishing fire was the reason zoo saw play last time... except punishing fire was there to kill other weenie decks. Aka you ran this in your zoo or you lost to other zoos running this. That's the truth, and pros said that too. In legacy zoo cant really exist because that combo was everywhere.
2. Finks and helix saw play prior to the ban, this is nothing new. Finks saw more play because in the touri where zoo was banned, people were trying to break jund, and there was a million deathcloud decks, all ran 4 finks.
3. He talks about fink being a problem, makes no reference to pillar of flame. Edit: till side.
4. Talks about how he main decks mind censer because lack of side space and he wants to cover all his problems. I have a different Idea, have a good main deck, so you dont die to inconsistency. It may seem "Dumb" or unintelligent, but having a race option as plan a is really important. Alot of decks you shouldnt win againt you do because you just go faster.
5.Ghor-Clan Rampager- Yes. We use it to make finks less deadly, turning it into single chump, no life gained, no removal. But it really shines vs token/weenie chumps and to kill big midrange blockers like goyf or smiter. He undervalues that card a ton.
6. He talks about how mindcensers good because you can hold it til after a wipe. Two words, boros charm. Against a deck that has wipes you shouldnt be over extending unless you figure you can win/ have boros charm, and casting a 2/1 after a wipe is hardly what I'd call recovery.
7. Thalias first strike is hardly relevant. If I have a 3/3 E1 that cost me 1, vs a 2/1 first striker (ability aside, only talking combat here) how does she survive encounters e1 does not? I can think of very very few creatures that are X=3+ and are x/2 that survives. Delver? But thats what the burn is for. And in most games Id rather be attacking for 3, and have a regen clause.
8. Pillar is a 1 cmc shock. People run tar fire and seal in the main, why not this? It's just stupid to call it inefficient for all it does. I can agree about using it in the side.
9. Thrun. Sure, as a top end, but I still dont like it. And 4 voices in the main just seem so weird. I understand its good against control, but boros charm just seems better against that wipe hes preparing for.
10. Combust is a good choice. Haha. I can really agree with him there.
Point blank, the guy is a mostly legacy guy, and I dont think this is completely aimed for the modern meta. Pod is a big concern for us, and thats why pillars can be used in the main. It looks alot like legacy zoo, where they only use loams, kirds, and nacatls because they cant depend on e1 because of its counters (jace bounce, miracled termanus, echoing truth, on top of all the other exile effects ect ect.
Articles a fine read, and you can go with what he says if you like, but I think he makes a lot of bad choices, and hasn't tested it. Seems like a rough deck theory than a tested list.
Play Fiery Justice. It's basically a one-sided wrath, and in matchups like the mirror, them gaining 5 life really isn't that big of a deal since it's typically a battle for superior board state. Against Affinity, it's a complete house, and it's obviously good vs. decks like Hatebears or Birthing Pod variants.
Well he's maindecking 3 Lavamancers, so he's at least doing something right!
Edit: How about Goblin Guide, Kird Ape or Loam Lion?
Lolz. I doubt I'm a "pro." But yeah, its been done before. Back in the day (punishing fire days pre banned) I think a canadian team did it and almost top 16ed. It was actually kinda impressive. Basicly its the same as normal zoo, but its removal had 4 punishing fires added on to 4 helix, 4 bolts, 3 paths, 2 firey justice, and it did grove. The problem is that punishing fire was the glue of that deck. you could still use it, butttt it would lack that cancel out life gain in punish. 2 life gain cards, firey and land, and 2 damage source, fire and kavu.
I'll be on for a bit longer waiting for part 3 to upload. What list are you refering too? Can you quote it?
In amongst this as well, I think he undervalues Pridemage:
"While it doesn't lock the opponent out like a Meddling Mage or Gaddock Teeg, the deck doesn't need to shut someone down so much as buy a turn or two to attack and force through damage. My problem with most hate bears is that they're narrow and provide unimpressive clocks. Qasali Pridemage needs an artifact or enchantment to turn it on"
There's also the other side to Pridemage where it's turned on by attacking with any creature solo. I'm in the market for sending a Kird Ape to 3/4 into a 3/2 Kitchen Finks. Sounds a lot like buying that turn or two, just in the future and relieves some of the pressure to have and spend path or pillar right now.
Plus exalted plays really well with Ghor-Clan Rampager. Your opponent thinks they're getting you by letting you attack (planning to burn out your 1 attacker with exalted on stack) but they're really just turning on Rampager. The beautiful thing about zoo is these situations come up a lot, because against fair decks you can settle into a rhythm of having to make space for attacks and managing the swing back. It looks like a perfectly innocent play and sets a trap.
Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
I think he was referring to one of these two decks, the two that has Deathrite Shaman on the first page of the premier.
SUPER FAST:
4 Kird Ape
4 Goblin Guide
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Experiment One
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
2 Vexing Devil
4 Arid Mesa
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Forest
3 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Temple Garden
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Rancor
2 Pillar of Flame
Side
3 Boros Charm
2 Stony Silence
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Molten Rain
2 Vines of Vastwood
Constant, solid, reliable:
4 Arid Mesa
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Forest
2 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Temple Garden
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Loam Lion
4 Experiment One
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
2 Lightning Helix
2 Pillar of Flame
3 Boros Charm
2 Stony Silence
2 Destructive Revelry
3 Molten Rain
3 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Combust
**Nacatl:** A beat stick. No need to keep going on.
**Ape/loam:** after a lot of testing I found that 10 X/3 are the amount of one cmcs to constantly evolve e1 into a 3/3 turn 1 with out burning tree. 12 was too much, 8 was too little, so 6 is the right number for these
**E1:** It may seem like a gimmick, but it's not when the whole deck evolves him. He is t1 a regening nacatl, and after that can still be evolved in his deck in a turn. Having 8 nacatls in one deck is insane, trust me.
**goyf:** also a beat stick, but survives bolt.
**Smiter:** Better than knight in this version of the deck. Knight can get big, but its yard depended, and land dependent. In a deck that wanted only 20 lands, he is very good. Also he comes in against the control/ tempo decks nicely. Controls early plan is to burn your 1 cmcs, counter your 2+. this stops them dead in their tracks, I've played enough to know its better.
**Ghor-Clan:** He is a 4 of. He does everything Zoo is having problems with and more. Zoo's weaknesses are delays like spell skite, finks, and timely reinforcements. This tramples over wall/chumps, while also cancling their life gain. It also Keeps your guys alive against big blockers like goyf and finks. It also can be used after a wipe to recover board position. Even against combo it acts as a 2 mana burn spell. Just play smart, dont get 2 for 1ed and you'll be fine.
On a side note of that guy, it also makes for good mind games, you pause at every entering combat, and it forces bad plays at times like a guy bolting something worried, then you cast goyf with no fear of a counter.
**Bolt/path/helix/Pillar:** the numbers can change, but its all on importance. Bolt is everything you want, so its a 4 of. Path covers your bases, 3 of. Pillar and helix split for aggro and finks.
**Domri:** you have 26 in main deck, meaning he draws you a card around 1/2 or 1/3, both still good so long as you hit 1. Also he can count as removal, meaning hes a good main board inclusion. Easily sided out for more specific hate, he covers all your bases. Now I will admit to saying I might want to cut him for boros charms. It could be a big difference.
**Lands:** Trial and error over a year for the correct amount. Horizons there for filler 2, but they draw later on in the game.
Side can change, but these have been most helpful so far. If I get the boros to main, that frees up slots for better removal, either pillars or fallouts.
Again, I really would love if you want to jump in the forum sometime to chat. I've been doing a video series on my testing, and I post that up there.
And hey, good luck!
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
21 lands
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
26 creatures
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
2 Searing Blaze
13 other spells
1 Burning-Tree Shaman
2 Centaur Healer
2 Deglamer
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Kitchen Finks
3 Shatterstorm
2 Skullcrack
2 Spark Trooper
15 sideboard cards
And of course I messed up with adding fetch lands that are not allowed in Modern (I guess that happen when a Legacy player try to go Modern). Got a little carried away I am going with the deck Lantern kindly posted accompanied with excellent and insightful advice. Thanks again Lantern!
Is the sideboard the same for both of these decks?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Side
3 Boros Charm
2 Stony Silence
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Molten Rain
2 Vines of Vastwood
About the videos. I think youtube is being mean with my videos and the music in them... Stupidddd.... Might be late getting them out.
If youtube doesnt unrepeal my stupid Jurrasic park theme in the video in like 2 days, I'll be re doing them. I still have the footage
Lantern, could you please explain how to use the sideboard, what to side in and out, when and against what. That would be really helpful. Many thanks in advance!
Sideboard:
3 Boros Charm
2 Stony Silence
2 Destructive Revelry
3 Molten Rain
3 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Combust