I'd just like to take a minute to agree with a few things Lantern has been doing and saying lately:
First, it seems a lot of people have kept Burning Tree Emissary in their lists. I think dropping them might be the right call, though. I don't think she's worth playing anymore now that we have a green 1 drop that evolves E1 to a 3/3. She's superfluous to use in situations where you have both an E1 and a Nacatl in your hand another another 2 power 1 drop. At that point she's not worth the extra damage that she might have been in the flint-hoof boar situations. So, idk, I haven't had any issues getting more damage than i would had BTE been in the deck over the other card slotted into her place. It's also annoying to get her Remanded when you were going to drop 2 1 drops off of her. Instead you could have forced one of them to hit the board, or have forced the mana leak.
Ghor-clan Rampager should be a 4x. Most definitely. The card is awesome. It helps Goyf beat other Goyfs, etc.
I also don't care too much for Voice. I think Smiter is just as good if not better against the decks that you might want Voice, anyways, and a little more aggressive than Voice when you don't want Voice. If you have an E1 on baord you can think of him as a guaranteed 5 damage on the board (instantly).
Going to do some playtesting with this deck tonight, I've been doing some goldfish testing on tappedout to tweak the manabase, but I like where it is right now for the most part. The sideboard is rough, definitely will need some tweaking.
As stated in a few posts here, Goyf is a little underwhelming because at most, you can have a 3/4 (land, creature, instant) from just your cards. It's mostly in the deck because, well...goyfs are really good at blocking OTHER goyfs and being bigger than Bolt.
4 Smiters might be a bit much, I rarely liked seeing them in my opening hand because I was traditionally keeping 2-landers and would often not draw into the 3rd. Removing one of these and adding another GC-Rampager might be the way to go (it's literally the best pump spell ever printed, in addition to being a relevant 4-drop if you need it)
Forge-Tender is brilliant out of the sideboard, a lot of decks will be packing Firespout now to deal with Zoo and it essentially acts like a Boros Charm with a resistant body
SoLaS is great out of the sideboard since it gives you creature recursion as well as protection against the more problematic removal spells (other than bolt)
This is the list I will start testing in very near future.
The point of the list is to focus on 1CMC drops and flood board in turns 1-3 and then deal the rest of the damage with trample and/or burn. I don't know what do think about Goyfs. They were great in Jund because Jund was able to actively fill graveyard with needed things. Our deck makes Goyf usually 3/4 but nothing bigger. It's great nonetheless, though.
I'd like to find a place for one more Rancor and/or Rampager (probably moving Helix into sideboard). I forsee those will be role players in those lists. I also think the list should have one more BTE (I belive this creature is either 4-of or 0-of). But I am not sure what to cut, probably Grim Lavamancer should be in sideboard? Or maybe one Loam Lion less? Especially since it is nonbo with BTE...
I think that Boros Charm is obvious 4-of in such a list. I wish there were better anthems for non-white creatures. The list ends up on 2cmc. I was thinking about playing 18 lands, but I decided to go with 19 because there are good sideboard techs for 3 mana (ex. Volcanic Fallout). Also 19th land is Slayers' Stronghold which is an out for later game (in case of flood).
I would consider droping the Loam Lions to 2 and adding in a 4th Ghor-clan and maybe 4th BTE. You do not need 4 Rancors, believe me I have had that attempt and Rancor just seems to be fine at 3 or even 2. I might even consider cutting 1 and adding a Helix instead.
I love this image and thanks for the advice, I will be moving some things around. But I really don't like Flinthoof boars. So I don't know what else to run, I am going to be dropping the knights and adding in 1 last smiter. I don't know what else to put in those two slots, maybe 2 kird apes?
Here is my version that mixes zoo with a bit of a landfall boros. No spells that do not deal damage to player. The curve tops at 2 (10x 2cmc) so 18 lands. IMO searing blaze is very underestimated right now.
That being said, i need to know one thing. Running 20 lands, with 8 3cmc i'm getting a bit stalled on 2 lands.. maybe was the software, maybe it was just a bad deck working... 20 lands is the ideal number here? I remember the old Naya playing 20/20/20.
I'm running 22 in my list and even cut 1 Loxodon Smiter because I was finding it hard to consistently hit my 3 drops. Not sure if it's 100% correct or not (I've only been goldfish testing the smoothness of the deck on tappedout, no cockatrice or etc), but that's what I'm running with for now.
Few questions from my testing: Is Scavenging Ooze worthy of a maindeck spot? I'm looking for things to cut to add extra Ghor-Clan Rampagers and I just never seem to like it pop up in my hand that much. Maybe a 2 or 3-of in the sideboard as our graveyard hate instead of Rest in Peace?
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So I have been playing Affinity and Karn Tron for a while with Gruul Zoo being my fun "tap" deck. I love to swing in with 4, 5, 6 creatures at once and now that the kitty is back, I feel like real effort can be placed on this deck. I have been reading through the lists and posts that have been going up and feel like there is a bit of a split between the decks getting posted. Some seem to want to get to their third land for Smiter while others want to keep it small around, needing only 2 lands to function. Now I was on the Soul Sisters train before the kitty was first banned and I remember playing against Zoo and how they would bolt themselves two or three times in the first 2 minutes of the game. Is it worth aiming for the 3 lands and between 6 or 9 damage? or do you fetch basics turn 2 to have all 3 land types? With Nacatl unbanned, what do you see your first turns being?
This is what I am thinking of testing come this weekend. It has the 12 creatures who are buffed by lands, and Tarmogoyf, which I feel are the standard package. I also run the Ghor-Clan Rampager as a full set because in standard and Gruul Zoo, he blew through so many things, and can make your 2/3's or 3/3's better than Tarmogoyf, or your own Goyf running over your opponents. The remaining slots though are for main deck hate. Qasali Pridemage allows me to hit AEther Vial form Merfolk and mess up affinity or Tron while buffing if I want to hold someone back. Scavenging Ooze can help restore life that the lands stole from us while removing problematic cards. With DR getting the ban hammer, I can see GY strategies picking up and trying to dominate. Ooze can take that problem and remove it for us.
The spells package is fairly standard, 4 of helix, bolt, and path. This should keep the lanes open for us to kick teeth in.
Lands are seeming standard. Not much to really say on them. I feel Arid Mesa is the best fetch for us being that it has 2 of out colors, while getting a mountain or forest land is our next best choices. Do you think Marsh Flats is important enough? Should there be an option to get a basic Plains?
I feel the sideboard is kinda stocked for the main matchups I foresee coming in the next few weeks.
Ancient Grudge - affinity
Qasali Pridemage - affinity, twin
Rest in Peace - living end, the one eggs player at my LGS
Stony Silence - tron, eggs, merfolk, affinity
Torpor Orb - twin, soul sisters
Molten Rain - tron, scapshift
Leyline of Sanctity - storm, eggs, anything that targets me like crazy
What are you opinions? Does this warrant testing or am I way off and should start else where?
This is the list I will start testing in very near future.
The point of the list is to focus on 1CMC drops and flood board in turns 1-3 and then deal the rest of the damage with trample and/or burn. I don't know what do think about Goyfs. They were great in Jund because Jund was able to actively fill graveyard with needed things. Our deck makes Goyf usually 3/4 but nothing bigger. It's great nonetheless, though.
I'd like to find a place for one more Rancor and/or Rampager (probably moving Helix into sideboard). I forsee those will be role players in those lists. I also think the list should have one more BTE (I belive this creature is either 4-of or 0-of). But I am not sure what to cut, probably Grim Lavamancer should be in sideboard? Or maybe one Loam Lion less? Especially since it is nonbo with BTE... Ooze is there to fight graveyard shenanigans and also provide midgame option (after boardwipe/blowout/anything). Maybe it should be in sideboard.
I think that Boros Charm is obvious 4-of in such a list. I wish there were better anthems for non-white creatures. I have a feeling that the list lacks something like Dynacharge or Fortify. I am not sure about them though and I haven't found anything better (Banners Raised was the only alternative but how much damage will it represent? 4 at max I guess).
The list ends up on 2cmc. I was thinking about playing 18 lands, but I decided to go with 19 because there are good sideboard techs for 3 mana (ex. Volcanic Fallout). Also 19th land is Slayers' Stronghold which is an out for later game (in case of flood).
For sideboard options, against mirror I was thinking about Firedrinker Satyr or Coordinated Assault. Coordinated Assault is cheap combat trick that may caught opponent with pants down since most creatures in mirror do not trade, and Nacatl holds off Lion/Ape/BTE attacks well. Are there better alternatives for those cards?
Against Faeries I thought about Electrickery but Volcanic Fallout and mainboard trample is a better route.
Couple things, yes, goyf funtions differently for our deck then jund. I go over it in the video I'm uploading. Also, That was the first thing I said when I saw your list, Burning tree is a 4 of or 0 of. I think lavamancer for the most part is main or nothing as well, because you have better side options
That being said, i need to know one thing. Running 20 lands, with 8 3cmc i'm getting a bit stalled on 2 lands.. maybe was the software, maybe it was just a bad deck working... 20 lands is the ideal number here? I remember the old Naya playing 20/20/20.
I'm running 22 in my list and even cut 1 Loxodon Smiter because I was finding it hard to consistently hit my 3 drops. Not sure if it's 100% correct or not (I've only been goldfish testing the smoothness of the deck on tappedout, no cockatrice or etc), but that's what I'm running with for now.
Few questions from my testing: Is Scavenging Ooze worthy of a maindeck spot? I'm looking for things to cut to add extra Ghor-Clan Rampagers and I just never seem to like it pop up in my hand that much. Maybe a 2 or 3-of in the sideboard as our graveyard hate instead of Rest in Peace?
20 lands is fine so long as your using your 3 cmc slots as an "If I get here" but still rely on your 1-2 cmc first. I wouldnt go up too high on lands, because in paper I think you'll find your self mana flooded alot. My big suggestion is to cut the gang. they are cool... but Flinthoof Boar is basicly and upgraded version. No wither, but its a better mana cost at 2, and also better at 3 if your hasting it.
I think ooze is fine main deck, as utlity not a beater. Ive said before not every card in a zoo deck needs to aim to beat down, you can have a few slots like voice, ooze, lavamancer, that help the overall game. If deathrite was legal Id probably have it as a 3-4 of.
I love this image and thanks for the advice, I will be moving some things around. But I really don't like Flinthoof boars. So I don't know what else to run, I am going to be dropping the knights and adding in 1 last smiter. I don't know what else to put in those two slots, maybe 2 kird apes?
Thanks guys
Yeah, I'd have to see the full list again, but do you have any utility slots yet? Or are you doing hyper aggro and are doing all beaters?
I think it is a bit of an easy, clunky answer to problems we do not have. What graveyard strategies concern us? If DredgeVine was a deck, the only thing that can beat us is one of their fast starts that feature double Vengevine on turn 2. Living End should be too slow anyway to beat us. The real threat we are facing from the graveyard is Snapcaster Mage and if it becomes popular again, Unburial Rites on Elesh Norn to some extent.
I think that Rest in Peace is not the right answer as it shrinks our own Tarmogoyfs and we don't want to board them out. It is our gameplan to dominate the early game and close out the game asap because we are not prepared for lategame battles and we're okay in the mid-game. So what we are searching for is a card that keeps graveyard stuff away in the early game without hurting one of our only mid-game outs, Tarmogoyf. Because it's not a mass of GY stuff that's annoying us, I thought about Purify the Grave and Dryad Militant.
Dryad Militant is not that good but it's an early game staller they need to bolt in order to re-use that Snapcaster target. One bolt directed at the Dryad is one less Bolt targeted at more precious beaters. Plus: it can get in for damage itself. That's the benefit of Dryad.
Purify the Grave is awesome because it makes the opponent spend a Snapcaster Mage while you make it an Ambush Viper by taking away its target. It clears EOT Gifts Ungiven packages and cleans-up annoying Living End dudes if necessary. And: you can flash it back yourself. I think that Purify the Grave suits our gameplan way better than Rest in Peace.
For me, it's that I do not want to board-out Tarmogoyf if I bring in Rest in Peace. I win Goyf wars with Path, Bolt, Helix and Ghor-Clan Rampager. And: I do not need an ultimate end-game solution to the graveyard shenanigans that really bother me. I would even play Surgical Extraction over Rest in Peace.
What do you think?
Living end is fast enough to beat us. We might be able to outspeed them on the play, but not the draw. They can, and will, turn 3 living end us and wrath us. I'd still use some form of grave hate, espeically against things like gifts, dredgevine, and tinfists. ALl of which have been exited about the deathrite ban. Now you dont have to use rest in peice, and I dont mind siding goyf out as Ive said before, but you do have to still have some grave hate. It can be extraction, but I think crypt and relic are better. To be honest... I probably should change it to graafdigger's cage because that stops gifts, pod, and vines.
Yesterday i tested agaisnt monoGreen and man... the Goyf desapointed me... Was always so small....
That being said, i need to know one thing. Running 20 lands, with 8 3cmc i'm getting a bit stalled on 2 lands.. maybe was the software, maybe it was just a bad deck working... 20 lands is the ideal number here? I remember the old Naya playing 20/20/20.
Here is my version that mixes zoo with a bit of a landfall boros. No spells that do not deal damage to player. The curve tops at 2 (10x 2cmc) so 18 lands. IMO searing blaze is very underestimated right now.
Looks solid. A lotta pages back I linked to pat chapins version of this. Are you running paths in the side? Oh and one thing you will have to report to me on is the boros charms. I like them as a 4 of for testing at least. I assume they are awesome, but I've been testing other things and just have them in the side. Let me know!
So I have been playing Affinity and Karn Tron for a while with Gruul Zoo being my fun "tap" deck. I love to swing in with 4, 5, 6 creatures at once and now that the kitty is back, I feel like real effort can be placed on this deck. I have been reading through the lists and posts that have been going up and feel like there is a bit of a split between the decks getting posted. Some seem to want to get to their third land for Smiter while others want to keep it small around, needing only 2 lands to function. Now I was on the Soul Sisters train before the kitty was first banned and I remember playing against Zoo and how they would bolt themselves two or three times in the first 2 minutes of the game. Is it worth aiming for the 3 lands and between 6 or 9 damage? or do you fetch basics turn 2 to have all 3 land types? With Nacatl unbanned, what do you see your first turns being?
This is what I am thinking of testing come this weekend. It has the 12 creatures who are buffed by lands, and Tarmogoyf, which I feel are the standard package. I also run the Ghor-Clan Rampager as a full set because in standard and Gruul Zoo, he blew through so many things, and can make your 2/3's or 3/3's better than Tarmogoyf, or your own Goyf running over your opponents. The remaining slots though are for main deck hate. Qasali Pridemage allows me to hit AEther Vial form Merfolk and mess up affinity or Tron while buffing if I want to hold someone back. Scavenging Ooze can help restore life that the lands stole from us while removing problematic cards. With DR getting the ban hammer, I can see GY strategies picking up and trying to dominate. Ooze can take that problem and remove it for us.
The spells package is fairly standard, 4 of helix, bolt, and path. This should keep the lanes open for us to kick teeth in.
Lands are seeming standard. Not much to really say on them. I feel Arid Mesa is the best fetch for us being that it has 2 of out colors, while getting a mountain or forest land is our next best choices. Do you think Marsh Flats is important enough? Should there be an option to get a basic Plains?
I feel the sideboard is kinda stocked for the main matchups I foresee coming in the next few weeks.
Ancient Grudge - affinity
Qasali Pridemage - affinity, twin
Rest in Peace - living end, the one eggs player at my LGS
Stony Silence - tron, eggs, merfolk, affinity
Torpor Orb - twin, soul sisters
Molten Rain - tron, scapshift
Leyline of Sanctity - storm, eggs, anything that targets me like crazy
What are you opinions? Does this warrant testing or am I way off and should start else where?
I think its actually a really solid list, you really thought through each slot. Let me know if you miss any the 3 cmc slots because of a worser midish game. If you dont, awesome. About the lands, you actually can really avoid being hit bad by lands, just need to be really familiar with it. Plus going to 14 isn't the worst. When you do, for speed, pain isnt the biggest thing on your mind. Its being outsped by a combo, out controled by a control player, ect ect. I only crack super conservatively when against a blood moon deck, aggro, or tempo. See the flow chart below.
Also, this isn't a big thing... but because the new site does this weird thing now when you quote someone it changes their deck list to "Lanterns deck list" and that confusing, try to name your decks now. EXAMPLE:
deck /deck
Ghor-Clan Rampager Added in those flex spots, not looking back. Trample, awesome right now. Why? Bitter blossom? Sure, but not enough on its own. Chump blockers? Eh, but thats alright. Up tick in tokens? Again, all of them not enough on its own.
WALLS and souls.ALLTheWallsand the souls that linger. Gross. Pod/s, tron, junk/d/i, hatebears, twin. These are all decks that have started to adapt to zoo, not by killing the creatures (zoo is the most redonant of aggro decks, killing our creatures delay our game, but doesnt stop it) but just slowing us with it.
I say no my friends. We must rush them with blood.
And hey, I like playing mind games. Side note, Ive picked up a good habbit of pausing at start of combat, and asking if they wanna do anything. Most of the time I dont have ghorclan in hand (sometimes not even in my deck, haha!) but it makes them think you do and they do mini panics.
Land-mana flow chart; or "How I didnt get color screwed."
Alright, I think some people porting from gruul to naya are having some trouble with this. Its pretty easy, but you just need to think a little before cracking, especially since we don't have perfect fetches. Least we're not domain.
1. Open your hand, look at your color spread and how much they cost per turn. For example e1 into nactal/ ape costs G then GR. Then Smiter costs GRW, or alternatively bolt helix costs RRW on turn 3. You have to budget out these money (mana costs) before even cracking your first land. Familiarize yourself with the colors in your hand first, don't be hastey, and when you got a good idea of the color weights in your hand move to step 2.
2. Now, You know whats in your hand. In most cases the important color will be red or green, as those are the colors of our creatures and our burn. White is 3rd. Now you have to, and this is crucial, figure out which you'll be doing more of: red or green? If your hand looks like I'll be playing a nacatl, then ape, then clearing the path with the 3 bolt effects I have in my hand, your answer is red. Go to step 2a. If your saying I need to drop E1, then nacatl ape/lion, then tarmo and keep the pressure up, go to step 2b.
2a. Ok, so you wanna ride 1/2 creatures to victory, seems fine, you have to crack your first land for what ever color you need for the creature (G probably) PLUS R. Then your next land should be W, to cover your bases, PLUS R. That way you can double bolt, still cast any 2 cmc creature, and have helix/boros charm mana represented. Move to step 3.
2b. You want to keep layin down the creatures with burn secondary to that, totally cool. Crack your fetch for what ever color you need for your creature, PLUS what ever color is needed for the next line of play. EX1: If you have nacatl in your hand, and ape/loam, crack the first land to be G / R EX2: If you have ape going first, then your choice between loam lion, goblin guide, or voice of resurgence, your first crack should be for W / R, as thats the heavest color. Your next crack should be to get what ever your next color should be what ever color you DONT have, and what ever is next in your creature line up. In EX1, that would be G PLUS W. In EX2: thats G PLUS W. Go to step 3.
3. 3 lands on. here it matters a lot less. You got the two lands you'll be using for most of the game. Now its up to you. You can have more burn mana represented, grab basics, or finish off your duals. Option 1 is great if your dropping creatures like in 2a, because thats your secondary game. Id probably also get green in that case too because you may have to cast left over critters. Option two is good if you want to ensure the health of your creatures and keep casting them. Keep nacatl big, keep ape happy, keep casting things in your hand if a blood moon happens. I wouldn't do this against a deck where I expect path (hatebears/american control) but I would if I expected nonbasic hate (delver/moon effects). Option 3 is the default. If option 1/2 doesnt really matter, or not up your ally, or you dont know what to do, safest thing is to fetch whatever completes your dual set. Go to helpful tips:
Helpful tips
- Tectonic edge and ghost quarter are cards that get played. Mostly in hatebears and in control, as well as 2 color midrange or knight midrange. Maybe you want to hold the 4th land, maybe you dont mind them blowing it up because you can still funtion on 2/3 lands, while they can not. Against hatebears its more annoying, aganist control, dont worry about it. the games going to go late (if it does, that sucks, sorry.) but you'll have 6-7 lands out. it wont matter. Just prioritize having all colors. they will go for your red first, then green, then white in that order, because they want to cut you off from burn, then creatures.
- Hatebears. ALWAYS CRACK YOUR FETCH FIRST. They will have arbitors and mindcensers. Get your mana, doesn't matter if they cut you off turn 3 as much as it does turn 2. Just be aggressive here and dont let them have time to set up their taxes. They will block with their taxers if their life gets low enough.
-Blood Moon. Delver and twin play this. Most mono red decks will have it, from rdw to big red. Even zoo uses it sometimes. In most of those cases it is comepletely ok to fetch a forest before hand. In the case of delver, they BANK on the turn 3 blood moon to stop you. If you crack a forest it screws their game up.
-Imperfect Fetches. Listen, land screw/ color screw happens, don't be hard on yourself. Try to get gruul colors, if you cant get white. Most of your creatures are gruul, so being able to cast them than a helix or path is usually more important.
- ALWAY SAVE MESA. If you're looking at a hand with a fetch land that isnt arid mesa, and one that is... Save arid mesa. There are expections to this rule, like if your following my flow chart above and you have to lead with it, but if you don't, DONT. Remember, all of our fetchs, sans mesa, are a little limp... They can fetch, but they cant perfectly fetch. Arid mesa can. It lets you change your game plan on the fly.
-One land hand. Short suggestion is, DONT DO IT. Yes we have a lot of one drops, casting one per turn, not impressive. If legacy is a 1 cmc format, Modern is a 2 cmc format. 2 is the magic number. Mull. Now, if your own the draw, you have 2 nacatls and have 22 lands in the deck, eh, not ganna stop you, but its still risky. Missing the turn 2 land drop, ok. missing the turn 3 one for a second land, you're probably dead.
-4 land hand. Also, probably shouldn't keep. Its better than a 1 land hand, since 2-3 lands are perfect, but you need to make sure you have full action for turn 1/2. If the opener is 4 lands, e1, nactal, ape, it is keepable, because you can do stuff turn 1-2. If its 4 lands, nacatl, ghorclan, smiter, its not a good hand probably.
Chill SO thats the flow chart. Made it as detailed as possible for you guys. Doing this over the years I have minimized my color screw. Any questions? Should I add this to the OP?
I love this image and thanks for the advice, I will be moving some things around. But I really don't like Flinthoof boars. So I don't know what else to run, I am going to be dropping the knights and adding in 1 last smiter. I don't know what else to put in those two slots, maybe 2 kird apes?
Thanks guys
Yeah, I'd have to see the full list again, but do you have any utility slots yet? Or are you doing hyper aggro and are doing all beaters?
Well to start off here is the full list, before any changes I make..
As for a utility creature slot, I do have Ranger of Eos, as a 1 of. That is mostly for testing a if I get there and kind of a meta choice, there is a lot of people playing path in my meta. I could run 2 Oozes in those slots though. As for how I want the deck to pan out is really just as consistent as I can. Hyper Aggro or not.
Is Vines of Vastwood still a viable option for Naya Zoo? I adored the card when playing Gruul and I would hope that it would still be good enough to use with the third color.
Is Vines of Vastwood still a viable option for Naya Zoo? I adored the card when playing Gruul and I would hope that it would still be good enough to use with the third color.
Lantern and I have both ran it in Naya Zoo (I'd wager the decks had similar curves and land bases as the current ones).
I see no reason that you shouldn't play it if you'd like to. It's really ridiculous in some MUs.
Might just be me, but I havent had many problems with it. Mostly because I'm the king of baiting. When I want not to be countered, I make removal seem better for that turn, allowing me to counter, or if I want to not be removed to do damage, I offer him tarmo on a platter to counter. I've always said one of your best tools against control is to make plays with out hesitation, and bluff the correct cards, as well as read their mana.
Aside from that, boros charm and vines blow that much widddddeeeee open. Also, I'm not worried. While they can go really heavy removal for us, they get worse against the rest of the field. Its not sustainable. Control can't answer one thing, they have to answer all the things. Its probably best for control players to realize they are weak to us, but at least they have counters against combo where we dont.
It really seems to be similar to affinity then. Our deck is largely built to counter creature based stratgies and we are generally favored but tight/loose play are often the things that make either player lose the game. And I generally say me and most control players are only mediocre with our decks so any competent zoo player can surely kill us.
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First, it seems a lot of people have kept Burning Tree Emissary in their lists. I think dropping them might be the right call, though. I don't think she's worth playing anymore now that we have a green 1 drop that evolves E1 to a 3/3. She's superfluous to use in situations where you have both an E1 and a Nacatl in your hand another another 2 power 1 drop. At that point she's not worth the extra damage that she might have been in the flint-hoof boar situations. So, idk, I haven't had any issues getting more damage than i would had BTE been in the deck over the other card slotted into her place. It's also annoying to get her Remanded when you were going to drop 2 1 drops off of her. Instead you could have forced one of them to hit the board, or have forced the mana leak.
Ghor-clan Rampager should be a 4x. Most definitely. The card is awesome. It helps Goyf beat other Goyfs, etc.
I also don't care too much for Voice. I think Smiter is just as good if not better against the decks that you might want Voice, anyways, and a little more aggressive than Voice when you don't want Voice. If you have an E1 on baord you can think of him as a guaranteed 5 damage on the board (instantly).
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Boros Charm seems much better than Forge-Tender.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I'll be doing some videos later tonight... I'll have it up by like... 1 am.
PS, hows this for the new OP image?
Though, if you can find an artist to make a similarly minimalist rendition of Nacatl from a side-shot...
I would consider droping the Loam Lions to 2 and adding in a 4th Ghor-clan and maybe 4th BTE. You do not need 4 Rancors, believe me I have had that attempt and Rancor just seems to be fine at 3 or even 2. I might even consider cutting 1 and adding a Helix instead.
I love this image and thanks for the advice, I will be moving some things around. But I really don't like Flinthoof boars. So I don't know what else to run, I am going to be dropping the knights and adding in 1 last smiter. I don't know what else to put in those two slots, maybe 2 kird apes?
I like the image! Looks cool
4 Kird Ape
4 Loam Lion
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Vexing Devil
2 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Lightning Helix
4 Searing Blaze
4 Boros Charm
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Marsh Flats
2 Stomping Ground
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Plains
1 Forest
Here is my version that mixes zoo with a bit of a landfall boros. No spells that do not deal damage to player. The curve tops at 2 (10x 2cmc) so 18 lands. IMO searing blaze is very underestimated right now.
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I'm running 22 in my list and even cut 1 Loxodon Smiter because I was finding it hard to consistently hit my 3 drops. Not sure if it's 100% correct or not (I've only been goldfish testing the smoothness of the deck on tappedout, no cockatrice or etc), but that's what I'm running with for now.
Few questions from my testing: Is Scavenging Ooze worthy of a maindeck spot? I'm looking for things to cut to add extra Ghor-Clan Rampagers and I just never seem to like it pop up in my hand that much. Maybe a 2 or 3-of in the sideboard as our graveyard hate instead of Rest in Peace?
RUG RUG Delver GUR
RG GR Tron (Retired) GR
WURG Kiki Pod (Retired) GRUW
BRG Jund (Retired) GRB
4 Kird Ape
4 Loam Lion
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Flinthoof Boar
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
Spells:12
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Helix
4 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
1 Marsh Flats
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Stomping Ground
3 Temple Garden
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Torpor Orb
2 Molten Rain
4 Leyline of Sanctity
This is what I am thinking of testing come this weekend. It has the 12 creatures who are buffed by lands, and Tarmogoyf, which I feel are the standard package. I also run the Ghor-Clan Rampager as a full set because in standard and Gruul Zoo, he blew through so many things, and can make your 2/3's or 3/3's better than Tarmogoyf, or your own Goyf running over your opponents. The remaining slots though are for main deck hate. Qasali Pridemage allows me to hit AEther Vial form Merfolk and mess up affinity or Tron while buffing if I want to hold someone back. Scavenging Ooze can help restore life that the lands stole from us while removing problematic cards. With DR getting the ban hammer, I can see GY strategies picking up and trying to dominate. Ooze can take that problem and remove it for us.
The spells package is fairly standard, 4 of helix, bolt, and path. This should keep the lanes open for us to kick teeth in.
Lands are seeming standard. Not much to really say on them. I feel Arid Mesa is the best fetch for us being that it has 2 of out colors, while getting a mountain or forest land is our next best choices. Do you think Marsh Flats is important enough? Should there be an option to get a basic Plains?
I feel the sideboard is kinda stocked for the main matchups I foresee coming in the next few weeks.
Ancient Grudge - affinity
Qasali Pridemage - affinity, twin
Rest in Peace - living end, the one eggs player at my LGS
Stony Silence - tron, eggs, merfolk, affinity
Torpor Orb - twin, soul sisters
Molten Rain - tron, scapshift
Leyline of Sanctity - storm, eggs, anything that targets me like crazy
What are you opinions? Does this warrant testing or am I way off and should start else where?
Couple things, yes, goyf funtions differently for our deck then jund. I go over it in the video I'm uploading. Also, That was the first thing I said when I saw your list, Burning tree is a 4 of or 0 of. I think lavamancer for the most part is main or nothing as well, because you have better side options
Likewise. If you are worried about the mirrior, the above wont help. Their burn will beat you. You need vines of vastwood, Ghor-Clan Rampager, Searing Blaze, Lightning Helix
20 lands is fine so long as your using your 3 cmc slots as an "If I get here" but still rely on your 1-2 cmc first. I wouldnt go up too high on lands, because in paper I think you'll find your self mana flooded alot. My big suggestion is to cut the gang. they are cool... but Flinthoof Boar is basicly and upgraded version. No wither, but its a better mana cost at 2, and also better at 3 if your hasting it.
I think ooze is fine main deck, as utlity not a beater. Ive said before not every card in a zoo deck needs to aim to beat down, you can have a few slots like voice, ooze, lavamancer, that help the overall game. If deathrite was legal Id probably have it as a 3-4 of.
Thanks guys
Yeah, I'd have to see the full list again, but do you have any utility slots yet? Or are you doing hyper aggro and are doing all beaters?
Living end is fast enough to beat us. We might be able to outspeed them on the play, but not the draw. They can, and will, turn 3 living end us and wrath us. I'd still use some form of grave hate, espeically against things like gifts, dredgevine, and tinfists. ALl of which have been exited about the deathrite ban. Now you dont have to use rest in peice, and I dont mind siding goyf out as Ive said before, but you do have to still have some grave hate. It can be extraction, but I think crypt and relic are better. To be honest... I probably should change it to graafdigger's cage because that stops gifts, pod, and vines.
Looks solid. A lotta pages back I linked to pat chapins version of this. Are you running paths in the side? Oh and one thing you will have to report to me on is the boros charms. I like them as a 4 of for testing at least. I assume they are awesome, but I've been testing other things and just have them in the side. Let me know!
I think its actually a really solid list, you really thought through each slot. Let me know if you miss any the 3 cmc slots because of a worser midish game. If you dont, awesome. About the lands, you actually can really avoid being hit bad by lands, just need to be really familiar with it. Plus going to 14 isn't the worst. When you do, for speed, pain isnt the biggest thing on your mind. Its being outsped by a combo, out controled by a control player, ect ect. I only crack super conservatively when against a blood moon deck, aggro, or tempo. See the flow chart below.
Well to start off here is the full list, before any changes I make..
4 Loam Lion
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Goblin Guide
2 Tarmogoyf
3 Loxodon Smiter
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
1 Ranger of Eos
Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Helix
4 Boros Charm
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Arid Mesa
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Deglamer
2 Destructive Revelry
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Vines of Vastwood
4 Molten Rain
As for a utility creature slot, I do have Ranger of Eos, as a 1 of. That is mostly for testing a if I get there and kind of a meta choice, there is a lot of people playing path in my meta. I could run 2 Oozes in those slots though. As for how I want the deck to pan out is really just as consistent as I can. Hyper Aggro or not.
Lantern and I have both ran it in Naya Zoo (I'd wager the decks had similar curves and land bases as the current ones).
I see no reason that you shouldn't play it if you'd like to. It's really ridiculous in some MUs.
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Modern:
RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs
RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy:
UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander:
UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR
Aside from that, boros charm and vines blow that much widddddeeeee open. Also, I'm not worried. While they can go really heavy removal for us, they get worse against the rest of the field. Its not sustainable. Control can't answer one thing, they have to answer all the things. Its probably best for control players to realize they are weak to us, but at least they have counters against combo where we dont.
As far as vines, yeah go for it. Ive just seen enough firespout o stones wraths verdicts and damantions that Id rather charm.
Edit: also part 2 video is exporting now.
Modern:
RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs
RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy:
UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander:
UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR