Hey guys. I am also testing Naya Zoo these days and I´ve got some games in. I nearly won every of them and the deck feels really strong and consistent now. Wild Nacatl is a great help to E1 and helps to stay in the game during Midgame. I love the kitty
Here is my actual list:
The Deck is a mix of Speed and Consistency, not All-In but still able to win turn 3 and consistant on turn 4. Most Turn 3 wins were due to Goblin Guide, he is in my core right now. The only flex spots right are the Smiters which I may switch out with Burning-Tree, KotR or other Stuff. However Smiter was great after Boardwipes or in some grindy cases against Jund where I could play them from the top of my deck alongside Rampager (Turn 10, lol). I have tested against Burn, Affinity, Tron and won every of those matches so far. Against Burn, Lighting Helix and Kitchen Finks were Key, Tron got stomped in 19 out of 20 games and Affinity was very close but I still pulled ahead due to the better Hate and Spotremoval. I lost against Jund 1-2 but thats how they work. Against Scapeshift I won 1st game with 3 Goblin Guides on my start hand. They went nuts and won me the game on their own - on the draw . Afterwards I faced more Anger of the Gods and Obstinate Baloth but Smiter and Goyf helped me to go 2-1. I hope I can get some more games in against Twin, Pod and Living End. Sideboard is not fixed right now as the meta is shacking but it has a good mix against Aggro, Midrange and Combo. Control should be good enough with this deck. Maybe some Volcanic Fallouts would be nice.
Fall outs been good for me, just extra spot removal. Not nearly as good as I thought it would be, but it does come in alot. You list looks alot like mine, -2 ghorclan +2 1 cmc critter, in this case goblin guide. Not sure if I agree, but the guy is fast, I cant argue that. Ghorclans have been really really good in my build though, and I've decided on keeping them.
This is the list I've been playing on MTGO so far with a lot of success. It took a bit of tweaking to get here, but I really like where it's at overall. I tried goblin guides and hated them, and I've been happy with the loam lions in their place. Ghor Clan Rampager is a must-have 4-of right now. It's huge in any zoo mirror, laughs at bitterblossom tokens, and punishes players bolting creatures during the attack phase.
Yeah, I've gone to 4 ghorclans and stickin there too in my testing man. 3 goyfs because thats all you could barrow, or 3 because thats the number you decided upon? Also two paths? How come, didn't like 3? I'm still not sold on the 4 burning trees. How are they for you?
For those of you guys new to the modern sub, badds one of those really on point deck builders, so if he says X tech has been working for him, I'd try it out. I think me and him came to the same finding that Ghor clan is really good right now, Yes because of bitter blossom tokens, but also because tokens as a deck has shot up too, and it seems like everyone is using lingering souls to combat us right now. Same findings over there badd?
It changed a bit since I last posted it, most notably it has one copy of Vexing Devil which I traded Polukranos for. I added more Ancient Grudges because they prove to be useful in a lot of matches, or at least it seems. Plus, my old nemesis Affinity has showed up in my metagame once again. I do like the Flame Slashes since most of the time, I'm not burning the opponent's face anyways. Also works against Spellskite, Resto Angel, Hero of Bladehold, etc. I'm planning on adding more devils in the future. So far, it seems to do really well. Haven't gotten first yet, but I plan to soon.
Id cut the Magma Jet for another ghorclan, unless this is your before the 7th changes deck. I'm sure you know nacatl is unbanned and its just a given in this type of deck, unless you are sticking to gruul zoo regardless, for budget reasons or something. Let me know so I can help a bit more.
Hey there. This is the list I came up with and I am not really sure if it's optimal. I think I put quite a bit of thought into every slot, so I think that in theory, my list should be quite good. There are other options, though, that I am exploring. Feel free to criticize.
Rationale:
- Experiment One can grow pretty well in this kind of deck. It isn't that explosive but it's got quite good synergy with every other creature in the deck. It can easily become a 4/4 and that's why I opt to play this guy instead of Goblin Guide who is hit by every single damage based spell we can encounter.
- Kird Ape and Loam Lion. Lantern said six and six is great. 4 Apes and 2 Lions because it fits the fetching patterns better. Loam Lion is actually holding me back, putting Burning Tree Emissary into the deck but our Apes do a lot of work.
- Nacatl, Goyf are no-brainers
- Smiter is awesome with Experiment One. It is also great against Fae because they cannot counter him or discard him. I am just not sure whether to go Smiter+Lion or to go Boar and BTE.
- Ghor Clan pushes through with Trample.
- Boros Charm vs. Oblivion Stone, Pyroclams, Firespout, Supreme Verdict. 1-of maindecked for random blowouts or 4 to the face should be enough.
- 3 Helix vs the Mirror and other aggro variants.
- Domri is card advantage. Might cut down to 2.
SB:
- Grudge is obvious against potential Shackles, Spellskite (Twin, Infect) and Affinity, random sword of X&Y's & careless Pod opponents.
- Boros Charm vs mass removal
- Stony Silence vs Tron (O-stone), Affinity
- Thalia vs Control & spell-based decks like tokens
- Molten Rain vs Tron
- Fallout vs Fae, Tokens
Yeah, if you end up going with burning tree, you'll have to run boars instead of smites. I just don't like Burning tree at this point if you want to be like "classic Zoo" over "Hyper aggro" Its a bad topdeck, and makes your burn spells a little worse, makes your creatures with W alot worse, you get hurt by pyros and the ilks of shocks/ snap caster blocks, and it takes up SOO many slots (4 slots is tough in a deck that really only has 2 slots freeish.)
Take a bit of time before your turn 1/2 plays before choosing your land. In terms of what you need g/r mana is either more imporant or less depending whats n your hand. If you have more critters, then its green, if you have 2 bolt effects, then its red. White is something I ususally get for the second land. I'll add a flow chart to land grabbing in my next post.
Mods told me to post this here. With the reintroduction of Faeries and Zoo, I thought it only a good idea to build a zoo deck geared at destroying Fae. I present CATZOO
I would assume the list needs little explanation. It is a Cat tribal zoo list that also run domain. Heavily centered around 1 and 2 drops + Burn and backed up by uncounterability from Cavern this deck should be a very quick win against faeries but also hold its own against most of the meta. The mana base may not be perfect yet, still working on that in my head but the ideal is to be able to fetch what you need at any time to either turn on your aggro section of get domain going. Nylea's presence rounds out the list and turns on everything, lets your caverns be useful for spells as well.
The deck would still hold up without doing the 5CC splash for domain, but you would have to go Naya (or even selesnya) and cut the Tribal flames. Without tribal flames you need an answer for things with over 3 power like goyf, so you may have to dip back into using path to exile. But I don't see much reason not to run full domain in this list as of now since it really supports a more aggro start.
Nylea's presence is tech from pauper right? I read that somewhere, domain zoo was working because of it. Its actually one of the more creative solutions ive seen. cool.
Problem is with cat zoo, which I'm sure makes fae grumpy cat, is as badd and I said, with stock lists you beat them 9 outta 10 times anyways, its not a bad matchup.
I do like the flavor. Id add 2 paths in there some how at least. Forwhat its worth a cat is also on that art too (Yes, I am a flavor guy, so I use those paths to fit the zoo theme...)
Mods told me to post this here. With the reintroduction of Faeries and Zoo, I thought it only a good idea to build a zoo deck geared at destroying Fae. I present CATZOO
I would assume the list needs little explanation. It is a Cat tribal zoo list that also run domain. Heavily centered around 1 and 2 drops + Burn and backed up by uncounterability from Cavern this deck should be a very quick win against faeries but also hold its own against most of the meta. The mana base may not be perfect yet, still working on that in my head but the ideal is to be able to fetch what you need at any time to either turn on your aggro section of get domain going. Nylea's presence rounds out the list and turns on everything, lets your caverns be useful for spells as well.
The deck would still hold up without doing the 5CC splash for domain, but you would have to go Naya (or even selesnya) and cut the Tribal flames. Without tribal flames you need an answer for things with over 3 power like goyf, so you may have to dip back into using path to exile. But I don't see much reason not to run full domain in this list as of now since it really supports a more aggro start.
You dont need to play 4x Cavern of souls to beat Faeries. Zoo by default already has a widely favorable faeries matchup. From my testing, it's about as lopsided as it gets without having to play junk cards like Nylea's presence. Besides, how are they going to counter your turn 1 nacatl? All cavern will do is prevent you from casting lightning helix. By default, if your creatures are less expensive than their counterspell effects, then you shouldn't bother worrying about making them uncounterable. Cavern is good at pushing expensive creatures through such as thragtusk & primeval titan, but it's not a card you want to care about outside legit tribal aggro (where you only play tribal creatures) or ramp decks with more expensive threats.
With 12 shocks, and knight, steppe lynx is better than boar. You dont need 4 basics, you really only need 3. That frees you up to add another land in there that isnt a fetch, like a fast land, a man land, or a horizon canopy. Tell me how the burn pans out. I always like more burn, but I think we need 24 creatures + to not run out of gas.
Also, this isn't a big thing... but because the new site does this weird thing now when you quote someone it changes their deck list to "Lanterns deck list" and that confusing, try to name your decks now. EXAMPLE:
deck /deck
Ghor-Clan Rampager Added in those flex spots, not looking back. Trample, awesome right now. Why? Bitter blossom? Sure, but not enough on its own. Chump blockers? Eh, but thats alright. Up tick in tokens? Again, all of them not enough on its own.
WALLS and souls.ALLTheWallsand the souls that linger. Gross. Pod/s, tron, junk/d/i, hatebears, twin. These are all decks that have started to adapt to zoo, not by killing the creatures (zoo is the most redonant of aggro decks, killing our creatures delay our game, but doesnt stop it) but just slowing us with it.
I say no my friends. We must rush them with blood.
And hey, I like playing mind games. Side note, Ive picked up a good habbit of pausing at start of combat, and asking if they wanna do anything. Most of the time I dont have ghorclan in hand (sometimes not even in my deck, haha!) but it makes them think you do and they do mini panics.
Land-mana flow chart; or "How I didnt get color screwed."
Alright, I think some people porting from gruul to naya are having some trouble with this. Its pretty easy, but you just need to think a little before cracking, especially since we don't have perfect fetches. Least we're not domain.
1. Open your hand, look at your color spread and how much they cost per turn. For example e1 into nactal/ ape costs G then GR. Then Smiter costs GRW, or alternatively bolt helix costs RRW on turn 3. You have to budget out these money (mana costs) before even cracking your first land. Familiarize yourself with the colors in your hand first, don't be hastey, and when you got a good idea of the color weights in your hand move to step 2.
2. Now, You know whats in your hand. In most cases the important color will be red or green, as those are the colors of our creatures and our burn. White is 3rd. Now you have to, and this is crucial, figure out which you'll be doing more of: red or green? If your hand looks like I'll be playing a nacatl, then ape, then clearing the path with the 3 bolt effects I have in my hand, your answer is red. Go to step 2a. If your saying I need to drop E1, then nacatl ape/lion, then tarmo and keep the pressure up, go to step 2b.
2a. Ok, so you wanna ride 1/2 creatures to victory, seems fine, you have to crack your first land for what ever color you need for the creature (G probably) PLUS R. Then your next land should be W, to cover your bases, PLUS R. That way you can double bolt, still cast any 2 cmc creature, and have helix/boros charm mana represented. Move to step 3.
2b. You want to keep layin down the creatures with burn secondary to that, totally cool. Crack your fetch for what ever color you need for your creature, PLUS what ever color is needed for the next line of play. EX1: If you have nacatl in your hand, and ape/loam, crack the first land to be G / R EX2: If you have ape going first, then your choice between loam lion, goblin guide, or voice of resurgence, your first crack should be for W / R, as thats the heavest color. Your next crack should be to get what ever your next color should be what ever color you DONT have, and what ever is next in your creature line up. In EX1, that would be G PLUS W. In EX2: thats G PLUS W. Go to step 3.
3. 3 lands on. here it matters a lot less. You got the two lands you'll be using for most of the game. Now its up to you. You can have more burn mana represented, grab basics, or finish off your duals. Option 1 is great if your dropping creatures like in 2a, because thats your secondary game. Id probably also get green in that case too because you may have to cast left over critters. Option two is good if you want to ensure the health of your creatures and keep casting them. Keep nacatl big, keep ape happy, keep casting things in your hand if a blood moon happens. I wouldn't do this against a deck where I expect path (hatebears/american control) but I would if I expected nonbasic hate (delver/moon effects). Option 3 is the default. If option 1/2 doesnt really matter, or not up your ally, or you dont know what to do, safest thing is to fetch whatever completes your dual set. Go to helpful tips:
Helpful tips
- Tectonic edge and ghost quarter are cards that get played. Mostly in hatebears and in control, as well as 2 color midrange or knight midrange. Maybe you want to hold the 4th land, maybe you dont mind them blowing it up because you can still funtion on 2/3 lands, while they can not. Against hatebears its more annoying, aganist control, dont worry about it. the games going to go late (if it does, that sucks, sorry.) but you'll have 6-7 lands out. it wont matter. Just prioritize having all colors. they will go for your red first, then green, then white in that order, because they want to cut you off from burn, then creatures.
- Hatebears. ALWAYS CRACK YOUR FETCH FIRST. They will have arbitors and mindcensers. Get your mana, doesn't matter if they cut you off turn 3 as much as it does turn 2. Just be aggressive here and dont let them have time to set up their taxes. They will block with their taxers if their life gets low enough.
-Blood Moon. Delver and twin play this. Most mono red decks will have it, from rdw to big red. Even zoo uses it sometimes. In most of those cases it is comepletely ok to fetch a forest before hand. In the case of delver, they BANK on the turn 3 blood moon to stop you. If you crack a forest it screws their game up.
-Imperfect Fetches. Listen, land screw/ color screw happens, don't be hard on yourself. Try to get gruul colors, if you cant get white. Most of your creatures are gruul, so being able to cast them than a helix or path is usually more important.
- ALWAY SAVE MESA. If you're looking at a hand with a fetch land that isnt arid mesa, and one that is... Save arid mesa. There are expections to this rule, like if your following my flow chart above and you have to lead with it, but if you don't, DONT. Remember, all of our fetchs, sans mesa, are a little limp... They can fetch, but they cant perfectly fetch. Arid mesa can. It lets you change your game plan on the fly.
-One land hand. Short suggestion is, DONT DO IT. Yes we have a lot of one drops, casting one per turn, not impressive. If legacy is a 1 cmc format, Modern is a 2 cmc format. 2 is the magic number. Mull. Now, if your own the draw, you have 2 nacatls and have 22 lands in the deck, eh, not ganna stop you, but its still risky. Missing the turn 2 land drop, ok. missing the turn 3 one for a second land, you're probably dead.
-4 land hand. Also, probably shouldn't keep. Its better than a 1 land hand, since 2-3 lands are perfect, but you need to make sure you have full action for turn 1/2. If the opener is 4 lands, e1, nactal, ape, it is keepable, because you can do stuff turn 1-2. If its 4 lands, nacatl, ghorclan, smiter, its not a good hand probably.
Chill SO thats the flow chart. Made it as detailed as possible for you guys. Doing this over the years I have minimized my color screw. Any questions? Should I add this to the OP?
Whoops. Missed some... Going to reply to alot of these, long post incoming. I'll add some of my thoughts in the next post.
Yeah, I've gone to 4 ghorclans and stickin there too in my testing man. 3 goyfs because thats all you could barrow, or 3 because thats the number you decided upon? Also two paths? How come, didn't like 3? I'm still not sold on the 4 burning trees. How are they for you?
For those of you guys new to the modern sub, badds one of those really on point deck builders, so if he says X tech has been working for him, I'd try it out. I think me and him came to the same finding that Ghor clan is really good right now, Yes because of bitter blossom tokens, but also because tokens as a deck has shot up too, and it seems like everyone is using lingering souls to combat us right now. Same findings over there badd?
Well, I sold off a large portion of my MTGO account to buy in on the 3 goyfs. I was able to sell most of my random junk cards for a profit, so it was mostly worthwhile.
As for 3 goyfs vs. 4 goyfs, one thing I found is that this deck doesn't support large goyfs against a lot of opponents like Jund does. There are many times I drop goyf turn 2-3 and it's only a 1/2, which isn't even as good as Kird ape when trying to Grow experiment one. So realistically, a turn 2 Flinthoof boar is usually larger than a turn 2 goyf will be, which makes it much better a surprising amount of the time. Yeah, you can splash random cards like tarfire or seal of fire to grow your goyf, but even then, you're venturing into the land of playing bad cards to make a single card slightly better. You also won't be casting tarfire or seal turn 1 to then play a turn 2 goyf, so most of the time your turn 2 goyf won't grow experiment one, leaving it more as a turn 3 or later efficient beatstick more than anything else.
So I don't feel so bad about 3 goyfs. You still get to play them reliably, and they'll grow big later in a match when you rely on them the most against lightning bolt decks.
As for Ghor-Clan, it just does a ton for the deck, especially the small-zoo variant. Historically smaller aggro decks such as small-zoo get trumped by decks playing bigger creatures since the deck with the bigger creatures can just chump-block all day, and get 2 for 1's when they have to bolt a creature after a block to kill it. Ghor-Clan allows you to run over goyfs with Kird Apes, and makes swinging into Kitchen Finks much more reliable. Against combo decks, it enables a quick clock by essentially acting as a 2 mana 4 damage burn spell. I'm not sure it would be at it's best in bigger zoo variants, but I wouldn't take them out in here.
As for path, I'm just not sold on playing more than 2. For a while, I wasn't even playing them since they're fairly useless in some matchups, but the more I see twin, pod, and tron, the more relevant it becomes. So I went with 2 maindeck with another in the board and I've been fairly happy. Ghor-Clan rampagers alleviate a lot of the problems with "bigger creatures" that zoo traditionally leaned on path for.
I almost feel like I want to be playing some # of Voice of Resurgence maindeck. It's not as aggressive, but I feel like it would help us in every bad matchup we would have. It's great in zoo mirrors, strong against tempo decks, great vs. UWR control & decks playing sweepers, and overall, just a really solid card. I think the biggest thing with Voice is that it gives you better game against sweeper effects like Firespout that can be a serious problem for Zoo decks.
Lantern, Great job on the flow chart! This is exactly what every new player for this deck needs. This deck isn't just a play everything and swing away type of deck, it has thought to it. Many don't see that and always think we are dumb players who enjoy turning our cards sideways! This deck needs strategy and thought before playing and the flow chart shines on that idea!
BTW, the decks aren't showing!!! Could you post them up!
On the post with the flow chart? There wasn't any decks in there. Its only to ask people to name their decks now the new site is weird. you do it by adding = after deck in the code. so=
Oh Gotcha! Thanks, also big question. How are the Pillars MB?! I am debating on playing 2 MB or just throwing them in the sideboard. I feel that wth Tokens and Faeries on the rise, it is worth MBing them because of how powerful they can be against Voice and token producing creatures.
I did notice, Canopy is EXCELLENT with it's draw power for mid-game. I am loving the how they run!
A little explanation, I only have access to two Tarmogoyfs right now, the other two I should be getting next month. Also, the sideboard is purely based on my meta.
Going to do some playtesting with this deck tonight, I've been doing some goldfish testing on tappedout to tweak the manabase, but I like where it is right now for the most part. The sideboard is rough, definitely will need some tweaking.
As stated in a few posts here, Goyf is a little underwhelming because at most, you can have a 3/4 (land, creature, instant) from just your cards. It's mostly in the deck because, well...goyfs are really good at blocking OTHER goyfs and being bigger than Bolt.
4 Smiters might be a bit much, I rarely liked seeing them in my opening hand because I was traditionally keeping 2-landers and would often not draw into the 3rd. Removing one of these and adding another GC-Rampager might be the way to go (it's literally the best pump spell ever printed, in addition to being a relevant 4-drop if you need it)
Forge-Tender is brilliant out of the sideboard, a lot of decks will be packing Firespout now to deal with Zoo and it essentially acts like a Boros Charm with a resistant body
SoLaS is great out of the sideboard since it gives you creature recursion as well as protection against the more problematic removal spells (other than bolt)
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Legacy: RUG RUG Delver GUR
Modern: RG GR Tron (Retired) GR WURG Kiki Pod (Retired) GRUW BRG Jund (Retired) GRB
Going to do some playtesting with this deck tonight, I've been doing some goldfish testing on tappedout to tweak the manabase, but I like where it is right now for the most part. The sideboard is rough, definitely will need some tweaking.
As stated in a few posts here, Goyf is a little underwhelming because at most, you can have a 3/4 (land, creature, instant) from just your cards. It's mostly in the deck because, well...goyfs are really good at blocking OTHER goyfs and being bigger than Bolt.
4 Smiters might be a bit much, I rarely liked seeing them in my opening hand because I was traditionally keeping 2-landers and would often not draw into the 3rd. Removing one of these and adding another GC-Rampager might be the way to go (it's literally the best pump spell ever printed, in addition to being a relevant 4-drop if you need it)
Forge-Tender is brilliant out of the sideboard, a lot of decks will be packing Firespout now to deal with Zoo and it essentially acts like a Boros Charm with a resistant body
SoLaS is great out of the sideboard since it gives you creature recursion as well as protection against the more problematic removal spells (other than bolt)
I really like the Forge-Tinder out of the sideboard! That could come in handy against other Aggro/Burn and Removal decks. Also what are your thoughts on 3 Paths vs 3-4 Lightning Helixes?!
Oh Gotcha! Thanks, also big question. How are the Pillars MB?! I am debating on playing 2 MB or just throwing them in the sideboard. I feel that wth Tokens and Faeries on the rise, it is worth MBing them because of how powerful they can be against Voice and token producing creatures.
I did notice, Canopy is EXCELLENT with it's draw power for mid-game. I am loving the how they run!
Really depends on finks and voice really. If they go down... which I dont think they will, Id use forked bolt. You could just use them in the side, I just like having main deck burn.
Canopy is great as extras. If you just have open land space its the go to card.
A little explanation, I only have access to two Tarmogoyfs right now, the other two I should be getting next month. Also, the sideboard is purely based on my meta.
You really cant run 19 lands with knight. Knight wants closer to 23 lands. Your better off just using smiter.
A little explanation, I only have access to two Tarmogoyfs right now, the other two I should be getting next month. Also, the sideboard is purely based on my meta.
You're playing 19 lands in a deck that wants to hit 3 mana on curve (6 3drops). I wouldn't recommend going below 20, but especially not with higher-curve creatures like Smiter and Knight of the Reliquary. You can either keep the high-curve stuff and add more land, or cut your curve off at 2 mana.
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Find me online - I'm on Cockatrice * Tag - Badd B - Or on MTGO - Tag - Cbus05
With Faeries getting a lot of hype would it be worth including Voice of Resurgence in this deck, or is a 2/2 for 2 just not where this deck wants to be?
With Faeries getting a lot of hype would it be worth including Voice of Resurgence in this deck, or is a 2/2 for 2 just not where this deck wants to be?
In my opinion, it's a 50/50 call. I personally don't like to play it in this deck because it just takes the slot of a possible Ghor-Clan which is already a major answer to Faeries or a spot for Smiter which is great against Faeries. I prefer to stick with those and play some burn.
It also depends on what version you want to play. Old School and Hyper Aggro does not run Voice because it is slow and meant for stalling, if you want to run the Knight version it may be a considerable option.
Also, this isn't a big thing... but because the new site does this weird thing now when you quote someone it changes their deck list to "Lanterns deck list" and that confusing, try to name your decks now. EXAMPLE:
deck /deck
Ghor-Clan Rampager Added in those flex spots, not looking back. Trample, awesome right now. Why? Bitter blossom? Sure, but not enough on its own. Chump blockers? Eh, but thats alright. Up tick in tokens? Again, all of them not enough on its own.
WALLS and souls.ALLTheWallsand the souls that linger. Gross. Pod/s, tron, junk/d/i, hatebears, twin. These are all decks that have started to adapt to zoo, not by killing the creatures (zoo is the most redonant of aggro decks, killing our creatures delay our game, but doesnt stop it) but just slowing us with it.
I say no my friends. We must rush them with blood.
And hey, I like playing mind games. Side note, Ive picked up a good habbit of pausing at start of combat, and asking if they wanna do anything. Most of the time I dont have ghorclan in hand (sometimes not even in my deck, haha!) but it makes them think you do and they do mini panics.
Land-mana flow chart; or "How I didnt get color screwed."
Alright, I think some people porting from gruul to naya are having some trouble with this. Its pretty easy, but you just need to think a little before cracking, especially since we don't have perfect fetches. Least we're not domain.
1. Open your hand, look at your color spread and how much they cost per turn. For example e1 into nactal/ ape costs G then GR. Then Smiter costs GRW, or alternatively bolt helix costs RRW on turn 3. You have to budget out these money (mana costs) before even cracking your first land. Familiarize yourself with the colors in your hand first, don't be hastey, and when you got a good idea of the color weights in your hand move to step 2.
2. Now, You know whats in your hand. In most cases the important color will be red or green, as those are the colors of our creatures and our burn. White is 3rd. Now you have to, and this is crucial, figure out which you'll be doing more of: red or green? If your hand looks like I'll be playing a nacatl, then ape, then clearing the path with the 3 bolt effects I have in my hand, your answer is red. Go to step 2a. If your saying I need to drop E1, then nacatl ape/lion, then tarmo and keep the pressure up, go to step 2b.
2a. Ok, so you wanna ride 1/2 creatures to victory, seems fine, you have to crack your first land for what ever color you need for the creature (G probably) PLUS R. Then your next land should be W, to cover your bases, PLUS R. That way you can double bolt, still cast any 2 cmc creature, and have helix/boros charm mana represented. Move to step 3.
2b. You want to keep layin down the creatures with burn secondary to that, totally cool. Crack your fetch for what ever color you need for your creature, PLUS what ever color is needed for the next line of play. EX1: If you have nacatl in your hand, and ape/loam, crack the first land to be G / R EX2: If you have ape going first, then your choice between loam lion, goblin guide, or voice of resurgence, your first crack should be for W / R, as thats the heavest color. Your next crack should be to get what ever your next color should be what ever color you DONT have, and what ever is next in your creature line up. In EX1, that would be G PLUS W. In EX2: thats G PLUS W. Go to step 3.
3. 3 lands on. here it matters a lot less. You got the two lands you'll be using for most of the game. Now its up to you. You can have more burn mana represented, grab basics, or finish off your duals. Option 1 is great if your dropping creatures like in 2a, because thats your secondary game. Id probably also get green in that case too because you may have to cast left over critters. Option two is good if you want to ensure the health of your creatures and keep casting them. Keep nacatl big, keep ape happy, keep casting things in your hand if a blood moon happens. I wouldn't do this against a deck where I expect path (hatebears/american control) but I would if I expected nonbasic hate (delver/moon effects). Option 3 is the default. If option 1/2 doesnt really matter, or not up your ally, or you dont know what to do, safest thing is to fetch whatever completes your dual set. Go to helpful tips:
Helpful tips
- Tectonic edge and ghost quarter are cards that get played. Mostly in hatebears and in control, as well as 2 color midrange or knight midrange. Maybe you want to hold the 4th land, maybe you dont mind them blowing it up because you can still funtion on 2/3 lands, while they can not. Against hatebears its more annoying, aganist control, dont worry about it. the games going to go late (if it does, that sucks, sorry.) but you'll have 6-7 lands out. it wont matter. Just prioritize having all colors. they will go for your red first, then green, then white in that order, because they want to cut you off from burn, then creatures.
- Hatebears. ALWAYS CRACK YOUR FETCH FIRST. They will have arbitors and mindcensers. Get your mana, doesn't matter if they cut you off turn 3 as much as it does turn 2. Just be aggressive here and dont let them have time to set up their taxes. They will block with their taxers if their life gets low enough.
-Blood Moon. Delver and twin play this. Most mono red decks will have it, from rdw to big red. Even zoo uses it sometimes. In most of those cases it is comepletely ok to fetch a forest before hand. In the case of delver, they BANK on the turn 3 blood moon to stop you. If you crack a forest it screws their game up.
-Imperfect Fetches. Listen, land screw/ color screw happens, don't be hard on yourself. Try to get gruul colors, if you cant get white. Most of your creatures are gruul, so being able to cast them than a helix or path is usually more important.
- ALWAY SAVE MESA. If you're looking at a hand with a fetch land that isnt arid mesa, and one that is... Save arid mesa. There are expections to this rule, like if your following my flow chart above and you have to lead with it, but if you don't, DONT. Remember, all of our fetchs, sans mesa, are a little limp... They can fetch, but they cant perfectly fetch. Arid mesa can. It lets you change your game plan on the fly.
-One land hand. Short suggestion is, DONT DO IT. Yes we have a lot of one drops, casting one per turn, not impressive. If legacy is a 1 cmc format, Modern is a 2 cmc format. 2 is the magic number. Mull. Now, if your own the draw, you have 2 nacatls and have 22 lands in the deck, eh, not ganna stop you, but its still risky. Missing the turn 2 land drop, ok. missing the turn 3 one for a second land, you're probably dead.
-4 land hand. Also, probably shouldn't keep. Its better than a 1 land hand, since 2-3 lands are perfect, but you need to make sure you have full action for turn 1/2. If the opener is 4 lands, e1, nactal, ape, it is keepable, because you can do stuff turn 1-2. If its 4 lands, nacatl, ghorclan, smiter, its not a good hand probably.
Chill SO thats the flow chart. Made it as detailed as possible for you guys. Doing this over the years I have minimized my color screw. Any questions? Should I add this to the OP?
Alright, well as far as goyf goes, the whole "It doesnt get bigger than 3/4, its 1/2 a lot." argument is one that was had back in original gruul zoo, and the answer to it still remains the same. 3/4 for 2 mana is still better than anything else, it doesn't die to bolt easily, and it gets better as the game goes on. its not the sole threat to win the game after stablizing like in Jund, its just beef for us to put us over the edge. Its got a different role.
Well yup, it's budget reasons. I don't wanna spend a few hundred on fetches. Also, I like the Magma Jet due to scry and being able to put away or find lands. Since it's just a one-of, I felt like it wouldn't hold the deck back too much and even if it does, I can always sideboard it out.
That doesn't work at all since both are used in the deck for different reasons. Goyf is there for the heavy beater and Voice is meant to stall games yet is smaller. The only viable option that has some sort of "Goyf"ness is Scavenging.
Well, goyf is supposed to be the heavy beater but oftentimes doesn't even get to 3/4. Voice may provide this with a single spell cast or strategic block, so just wondering if it's a viable replacement at the 2cmc.
Man, thanks for all this insight Lantern. I really appreciate your work and it motivates me even more I will cut 1 Path and 1 Rancor and up my Rampagers to 4. I will have a bigger testing sesions with my friends tomorrow. I will test against Melira Pod, Scapeshift, Living End, Tokens and U-Tron, maybe Death and Taxes. I will report here afterwards.
Looking forward to hearing about the results!
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Fall outs been good for me, just extra spot removal. Not nearly as good as I thought it would be, but it does come in alot. You list looks alot like mine, -2 ghorclan +2 1 cmc critter, in this case goblin guide. Not sure if I agree, but the guy is fast, I cant argue that. Ghorclans have been really really good in my build though, and I've decided on keeping them.
Yeah, I've gone to 4 ghorclans and stickin there too in my testing man. 3 goyfs because thats all you could barrow, or 3 because thats the number you decided upon? Also two paths? How come, didn't like 3? I'm still not sold on the 4 burning trees. How are they for you?
For those of you guys new to the modern sub, badds one of those really on point deck builders, so if he says X tech has been working for him, I'd try it out. I think me and him came to the same finding that Ghor clan is really good right now, Yes because of bitter blossom tokens, but also because tokens as a deck has shot up too, and it seems like everyone is using lingering souls to combat us right now. Same findings over there badd?
Id cut the Magma Jet for another ghorclan, unless this is your before the 7th changes deck. I'm sure you know nacatl is unbanned and its just a given in this type of deck, unless you are sticking to gruul zoo regardless, for budget reasons or something. Let me know so I can help a bit more.
Yeah, if you end up going with burning tree, you'll have to run boars instead of smites. I just don't like Burning tree at this point if you want to be like "classic Zoo" over "Hyper aggro" Its a bad topdeck, and makes your burn spells a little worse, makes your creatures with W alot worse, you get hurt by pyros and the ilks of shocks/ snap caster blocks, and it takes up SOO many slots (4 slots is tough in a deck that really only has 2 slots freeish.)
Take a bit of time before your turn 1/2 plays before choosing your land. In terms of what you need g/r mana is either more imporant or less depending whats n your hand. If you have more critters, then its green, if you have 2 bolt effects, then its red. White is something I ususally get for the second land. I'll add a flow chart to land grabbing in my next post.
Nylea's presence is tech from pauper right? I read that somewhere, domain zoo was working because of it. Its actually one of the more creative solutions ive seen. cool.
Problem is with cat zoo, which I'm sure makes fae grumpy cat, is as badd and I said, with stock lists you beat them 9 outta 10 times anyways, its not a bad matchup.
I do like the flavor. Id add 2 paths in there some how at least. Forwhat its worth a cat is also on that art too (Yes, I am a flavor guy, so I use those paths to fit the zoo theme...)
I agree with Badd.
With 12 shocks, and knight, steppe lynx is better than boar. You dont need 4 basics, you really only need 3. That frees you up to add another land in there that isnt a fetch, like a fast land, a man land, or a horizon canopy. Tell me how the burn pans out. I always like more burn, but I think we need 24 creatures + to not run out of gas.
deck /deck
deck=AMAZING ZOO! /deck
Alright, my own thoughts from last night/testing:
Ghor-Clan Rampager Added in those flex spots, not looking back. Trample, awesome right now. Why? Bitter blossom? Sure, but not enough on its own. Chump blockers? Eh, but thats alright. Up tick in tokens? Again, all of them not enough on its own.
WALLS and souls. ALL The Walls and the souls that linger. Gross. Pod/s, tron, junk/d/i, hatebears, twin. These are all decks that have started to adapt to zoo, not by killing the creatures (zoo is the most redonant of aggro decks, killing our creatures delay our game, but doesnt stop it) but just slowing us with it.
I say no my friends. We must rush them with blood.
And hey, I like playing mind games. Side note, Ive picked up a good habbit of pausing at start of combat, and asking if they wanna do anything. Most of the time I dont have ghorclan in hand (sometimes not even in my deck, haha!) but it makes them think you do and they do mini panics.
Land-mana flow chart; or "How I didnt get color screwed."
Alright, I think some people porting from gruul to naya are having some trouble with this. Its pretty easy, but you just need to think a little before cracking, especially since we don't have perfect fetches. Least we're not domain.
1. Open your hand, look at your color spread and how much they cost per turn. For example e1 into nactal/ ape costs G then GR. Then Smiter costs GRW, or alternatively bolt helix costs RRW on turn 3. You have to budget out these money (mana costs) before even cracking your first land. Familiarize yourself with the colors in your hand first, don't be hastey, and when you got a good idea of the color weights in your hand move to step 2.
2. Now, You know whats in your hand. In most cases the important color will be red or green, as those are the colors of our creatures and our burn. White is 3rd. Now you have to, and this is crucial, figure out which you'll be doing more of: red or green? If your hand looks like I'll be playing a nacatl, then ape, then clearing the path with the 3 bolt effects I have in my hand, your answer is red. Go to step 2a. If your saying I need to drop E1, then nacatl ape/lion, then tarmo and keep the pressure up, go to step 2b.
2a. Ok, so you wanna ride 1/2 creatures to victory, seems fine, you have to crack your first land for what ever color you need for the creature (G probably) PLUS R. Then your next land should be W, to cover your bases, PLUS R. That way you can double bolt, still cast any 2 cmc creature, and have helix/boros charm mana represented. Move to step 3.
2b. You want to keep layin down the creatures with burn secondary to that, totally cool. Crack your fetch for what ever color you need for your creature, PLUS what ever color is needed for the next line of play. EX1: If you have nacatl in your hand, and ape/loam, crack the first land to be G / R EX2: If you have ape going first, then your choice between loam lion, goblin guide, or voice of resurgence, your first crack should be for W / R, as thats the heavest color. Your next crack should be to get what ever your next color should be what ever color you DONT have, and what ever is next in your creature line up. In EX1, that would be G PLUS W. In EX2: thats G PLUS W. Go to step 3.
3. 3 lands on. here it matters a lot less. You got the two lands you'll be using for most of the game. Now its up to you. You can have more burn mana represented, grab basics, or finish off your duals. Option 1 is great if your dropping creatures like in 2a, because thats your secondary game. Id probably also get green in that case too because you may have to cast left over critters. Option two is good if you want to ensure the health of your creatures and keep casting them. Keep nacatl big, keep ape happy, keep casting things in your hand if a blood moon happens. I wouldn't do this against a deck where I expect path (hatebears/american control) but I would if I expected nonbasic hate (delver/moon effects). Option 3 is the default. If option 1/2 doesnt really matter, or not up your ally, or you dont know what to do, safest thing is to fetch whatever completes your dual set. Go to helpful tips:
Helpful tips
- Tectonic edge and ghost quarter are cards that get played. Mostly in hatebears and in control, as well as 2 color midrange or knight midrange. Maybe you want to hold the 4th land, maybe you dont mind them blowing it up because you can still funtion on 2/3 lands, while they can not. Against hatebears its more annoying, aganist control, dont worry about it. the games going to go late (if it does, that sucks, sorry.) but you'll have 6-7 lands out. it wont matter. Just prioritize having all colors. they will go for your red first, then green, then white in that order, because they want to cut you off from burn, then creatures.
- Hatebears. ALWAYS CRACK YOUR FETCH FIRST. They will have arbitors and mindcensers. Get your mana, doesn't matter if they cut you off turn 3 as much as it does turn 2. Just be aggressive here and dont let them have time to set up their taxes. They will block with their taxers if their life gets low enough.
-Blood Moon. Delver and twin play this. Most mono red decks will have it, from rdw to big red. Even zoo uses it sometimes. In most of those cases it is comepletely ok to fetch a forest before hand. In the case of delver, they BANK on the turn 3 blood moon to stop you. If you crack a forest it screws their game up.
-Imperfect Fetches. Listen, land screw/ color screw happens, don't be hard on yourself. Try to get gruul colors, if you cant get white. Most of your creatures are gruul, so being able to cast them than a helix or path is usually more important.
- ALWAY SAVE MESA. If you're looking at a hand with a fetch land that isnt arid mesa, and one that is... Save arid mesa. There are expections to this rule, like if your following my flow chart above and you have to lead with it, but if you don't, DONT. Remember, all of our fetchs, sans mesa, are a little limp... They can fetch, but they cant perfectly fetch. Arid mesa can. It lets you change your game plan on the fly.
-One land hand. Short suggestion is, DONT DO IT. Yes we have a lot of one drops, casting one per turn, not impressive. If legacy is a 1 cmc format, Modern is a 2 cmc format. 2 is the magic number. Mull. Now, if your own the draw, you have 2 nacatls and have 22 lands in the deck, eh, not ganna stop you, but its still risky. Missing the turn 2 land drop, ok. missing the turn 3 one for a second land, you're probably dead.
-4 land hand. Also, probably shouldn't keep. Its better than a 1 land hand, since 2-3 lands are perfect, but you need to make sure you have full action for turn 1/2. If the opener is 4 lands, e1, nactal, ape, it is keepable, because you can do stuff turn 1-2. If its 4 lands, nacatl, ghorclan, smiter, its not a good hand probably.
Chill SO thats the flow chart. Made it as detailed as possible for you guys. Doing this over the years I have minimized my color screw. Any questions? Should I add this to the OP?
Well, I sold off a large portion of my MTGO account to buy in on the 3 goyfs. I was able to sell most of my random junk cards for a profit, so it was mostly worthwhile.
As for 3 goyfs vs. 4 goyfs, one thing I found is that this deck doesn't support large goyfs against a lot of opponents like Jund does. There are many times I drop goyf turn 2-3 and it's only a 1/2, which isn't even as good as Kird ape when trying to Grow experiment one. So realistically, a turn 2 Flinthoof boar is usually larger than a turn 2 goyf will be, which makes it much better a surprising amount of the time. Yeah, you can splash random cards like tarfire or seal of fire to grow your goyf, but even then, you're venturing into the land of playing bad cards to make a single card slightly better. You also won't be casting tarfire or seal turn 1 to then play a turn 2 goyf, so most of the time your turn 2 goyf won't grow experiment one, leaving it more as a turn 3 or later efficient beatstick more than anything else.
So I don't feel so bad about 3 goyfs. You still get to play them reliably, and they'll grow big later in a match when you rely on them the most against lightning bolt decks.
As for Ghor-Clan, it just does a ton for the deck, especially the small-zoo variant. Historically smaller aggro decks such as small-zoo get trumped by decks playing bigger creatures since the deck with the bigger creatures can just chump-block all day, and get 2 for 1's when they have to bolt a creature after a block to kill it. Ghor-Clan allows you to run over goyfs with Kird Apes, and makes swinging into Kitchen Finks much more reliable. Against combo decks, it enables a quick clock by essentially acting as a 2 mana 4 damage burn spell. I'm not sure it would be at it's best in bigger zoo variants, but I wouldn't take them out in here.
As for path, I'm just not sold on playing more than 2. For a while, I wasn't even playing them since they're fairly useless in some matchups, but the more I see twin, pod, and tron, the more relevant it becomes. So I went with 2 maindeck with another in the board and I've been fairly happy. Ghor-Clan rampagers alleviate a lot of the problems with "bigger creatures" that zoo traditionally leaned on path for.
I almost feel like I want to be playing some # of Voice of Resurgence maindeck. It's not as aggressive, but I feel like it would help us in every bad matchup we would have. It's great in zoo mirrors, strong against tempo decks, great vs. UWR control & decks playing sweepers, and overall, just a really solid card. I think the biggest thing with Voice is that it gives you better game against sweeper effects like Firespout that can be a serious problem for Zoo decks.
BTW, the decks aren't showing!!! Could you post them up!
[ deck] [ /deck]
is
but
[ deck=This is how you name this deck] [ /deck]
Codeing with out the space, ofcourse.
I did notice, Canopy is EXCELLENT with it's draw power for mid-game. I am loving the how they run!
4 Loam Lion
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Goblin Guide
2 Tarmogoyf
3 Loxodon Smiter
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
1 Ranger of Eos
Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Helix
4 Boros Charm
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Arid Mesa
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Deglamer
2 Destructive Revelry
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Vines of Vastwood
4 Molten Rain
A little explanation, I only have access to two Tarmogoyfs right now, the other two I should be getting next month. Also, the sideboard is purely based on my meta.
4x Experiment One
2x Ghor-Clan Rampager
4x Kird Ape
4x Loam Lion
4x Loxodon Smiter
2x Scavenging Ooze
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Wild Nacatl
Spells (10)
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Lightning Helix
2x Path to Exile
4x Arid Mesa
3x Forest
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Mountain
1x Plains
2x Sacred Foundry
3x Stomping Ground
3x Temple Garden
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Burrenton Forge-Tender
2x Path to Exile
3x Rest in Peace
2x Stony Silence
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
2x Torpor Orb
Few notes from testing:
RUG RUG Delver GUR
RG GR Tron (Retired) GR
WURG Kiki Pod (Retired) GRUW
BRG Jund (Retired) GRB
I really like the Forge-Tinder out of the sideboard! That could come in handy against other Aggro/Burn and Removal decks. Also what are your thoughts on 3 Paths vs 3-4 Lightning Helixes?!
Really depends on finks and voice really. If they go down... which I dont think they will, Id use forked bolt. You could just use them in the side, I just like having main deck burn.
Canopy is great as extras. If you just have open land space its the go to card.
You really cant run 19 lands with knight. Knight wants closer to 23 lands. Your better off just using smiter.
You're playing 19 lands in a deck that wants to hit 3 mana on curve (6 3drops). I wouldn't recommend going below 20, but especially not with higher-curve creatures like Smiter and Knight of the Reliquary. You can either keep the high-curve stuff and add more land, or cut your curve off at 2 mana.
In my opinion, it's a 50/50 call. I personally don't like to play it in this deck because it just takes the slot of a possible Ghor-Clan which is already a major answer to Faeries or a spot for Smiter which is great against Faeries. I prefer to stick with those and play some burn.
It also depends on what version you want to play. Old School and Hyper Aggro does not run Voice because it is slow and meant for stalling, if you want to run the Knight version it may be a considerable option.
Alright, well as far as goyf goes, the whole "It doesnt get bigger than 3/4, its 1/2 a lot." argument is one that was had back in original gruul zoo, and the answer to it still remains the same. 3/4 for 2 mana is still better than anything else, it doesn't die to bolt easily, and it gets better as the game goes on. its not the sole threat to win the game after stablizing like in Jund, its just beef for us to put us over the edge. Its got a different role.
RGGruul Aggro
WSoul Sisters
WBTokens
BUGRRestore Balance
BMono-Black Infect
EDH:
RGWMayael, the Anima
GWURoon of the Hidden Realm
BDrana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Looking forward to hearing about the results!