the OP has some pretty egregious errors in the introduction section
The eggs moniker for this deck came from it's origins in the use of the invasion "eggs" like Sungrass Egg, Skyshroud Egg, and Darkwater Egg. The deck has since lost these invaluable staples as they rotated out in extended, and are a block too early for Modern.
The eggs were from odyssey, not invasion.
Invasion was 3 blocks two early for modern, Odyssey was two blocks too early. Not sure which you were trying to reference, but either way needs fixing.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
As for Lotus Cobra, Ive found that the mana produced is highly unnecessary unless your win con is something like a Banefire or a using the mana to cast all the spells you draw into to filter into a storm card. Lotus Cobra really seems to me to be based on preference. If you find yourself low on mana as youre running through the combo a few Lotus Cobras will solve that but I have yet to need that mana while running Pyrite Spellbomb, Laboratoy Maniac, or Bitter Ordeal as my wincons. One use I had for Lotus Cobra was as a Path target actually. I used Lotus Cobra game 1 and won with a Banefire. Game 2 I boarded out the Banefire in favor of Bitter Ordeal and Lab Maniac and my opponent wasted his path on the Lotus Cobra I dropped clearing the way for Lab Maniac to easily win the game.
The only real benefit i can see for Laboratory Maniac is that it beats leyline of sanctity. In that, you can just hold it in your hand till your library is empty, then cast it then. In response to a path, just crack an egg. Seems pretty good, but just bouncing the leyline accomplishes the same thing, and is more versatile to boot.
ok, updated the first post with some of the suggestions from mshnik, and lectyrs list is up.
Standardized the the title-print for each section and subsection (still working out some things, but it's still better now).
Will also get to a few other fixes later, like editing the card choices list and adding a few that weren't mentioned, as well as putting in somewhere on the first post who has contributed at one point or another.
Oh, and the other 2 example lists will be posted soon, and a personal lists section will be added as well, right at the end of the first post.
Been testing greater gargadon, as he was test fodder for extended eggs when wotc released that set. Having trouble figuring out what exactly comes out for him, but he does add a way for us to have both a wincon and a mass sac outlet in one. Testing...
The "disruption", "removal", and "protection" sections in the card choices spoiler on the first page (There are some in artifacts, instants and sorceries, and enchantments) are pretty much all sideboard options, so take your pick from there
Wow, that's an interesting thing to test... I guess I'd miss the card draw off of the saccing of artifacts. Esp if it just gets Pathed...
well, gargadons get sacced to eachother in response, and still come back with sunrise. So far that I've been testing it, I ran into a huge discrepancy with gargadon though. It really forces you to wait for turn 4 before playing sunrise if you have only gargadon and basic lands. This is trouble, because i was using him to act as land recursion 9-12 along with fetches and ghost quarter. But without ghost quarter or fetches, you can't do any further thinning off of just gargadon, so you still have to wait for ghost quarter or not play a land and just wait for ghost quarter to be drawn off of an artifact.
And i tested out ichor with it, seeing as it can sac artifacts too, which means we could have a total of 8 sac outlets for it in the deck. Of course, the usual issue of those two cards not seeing the board at the same time is still kinda frustrating. Not as frustrating with gargadon in the deck, but still pretty bad. But, whenever they were there together, I've literally so far in testing... never fizzled. Something to be said about 2 garanteed draws off of 1 rock every single time you sunrise. You get 2 out there, it's a free draw4 every iteration. Makes ichor a really expensive, but usually high priority target for both reshaping and for paying reshape.
Biggest issue is just slots at this point. There's now way too much tech floating around, not quite doing the same exact jobs, all vying for a spot that is way too small without proper cheap tutoring (which we don't have). Makes me sad.
I think some version would make gargadon work, but right now I'm not sure it's a version I want to play, to be honest.
Biggest issue is just slots at this point. There's now way too much tech floating around, not quite doing the same exact jobs, all vying for a spot that is way too small without proper cheap tutoring (which we don't have). Makes me sad.
This is exactly it! The deck is so specialized and tuned at this point that each card serves a specific niche function and is very hard to replace without overhauling the deck (eg- more traditional vs. Lotus Cobra builds). Ive wanted to clear out some room to add one or 2 more win cons in order to have Pyrite, Bitter Ordeal, and Lab Maniac in the deck just in case. However Im finding trouble replacing things as the deck already runs so smoothly as is. When I replace the eggs I fizzle a lot more than normal. When I replace lands I cannot go off as early as I would like. And the problems go on and on.
Alright, I got a set of Lotus Bloom off of the eBay. Since that is the only expensive card in the deck I didn't have, I kind of want to make this. What would you guys say is the best way to build the deck?
When I replace the eggs I fizzle a lot more than normal. When I replace lands I cannot go off as early as I would like. And the problems go on and on.
Don't think of the slots as set by the cards that occupy them, but by the effects the cards have. You need a certain number of each of these effects. If you have something that draws, it can only be replaced by something else that draws, or if something makes your draws stronger, you have to siphon a bit back. The same goes for mana accel and such. That's how the deck balances itself. What I meant was that there's so much tech now that does something specialized or is a hybrid of 2 or more effects, that it's hard to find the right balance between redundancy, recurrability, and cost. This deck does have a curve so to speak, and that's what sets our bar for the setup part of the combo. Part of the issue is also balancing between 2 mana
engines, that of artifact mana and that of lands.
I'm personally testing a lot of different cards right now because I'm looking to speed the deck up, but if you were to ask me to sleeve something up, I'd go with something heavy on redundancy with a 2nd wincon, like riddlesmith locket version like in the example list currently posted.
I also have a version that uses lotus cobra to push through the mana heavy builds that run reclaims and open the vaults in order to strengthen each individual draw. That one is pretty straight forward and consistent, though tricky to play. In the end, if it's not working for you, don't use it.
I'll post up a decent version of that and a vanilla in the next day or so.
I'm pretty happy with my build thusfar... and I'm starting to worry about sb techniques. We have many great options, but I'm just not sure what I'll be taking out when I need to use something like Needle or Mindbreak Trap. That and I realised I should really have a playset of Negations and I just about fell off my chair at how much they jumped. I just don't know if I want to spend more on a playset of SB cards than I payed for the entire deck.
I'm pretty happy with my build thusfar... and I'm starting to worry about sb techniques. We have many great options, but I'm just not sure what I'll be taking out when I need to use something like Needle or Mindbreak Trap. That and I realised I should really have a playset of Negations and I just about fell off my chair at how much they jumped. I just don't know if I want to spend more on a playset of SB cards than I payed for the entire deck.
A few thoughts:
I'm not sure I see the point in having so many win conditions in the main deck. Are you worried about Cranial Extraction or some similar card? If so, you aren't fighting those cards very well, as any card that can Exile all of your Lotus Bloom or Second Sunrise will still stop you from being able to combo.
I doubt many people will be playing Cranial Extraction, but Surgical Extraction is definitely something you will come across in people's sideboards. Getting rid of some of the win conditions should actually make you more versatile and consistent against decks doing so, as it allows you more space in your deck for things like Mindbreak Trap / Pact of Negation.
Grapeshot/Locket is really the only true alternate win condition (technically, it could be Disciple/Locket, but I'd rather have the Storm combo than a 1/1 I have to keep alive on the field). Laboratory Maniac and Disciple are just win-more cards at that point. In the place for the main deck, I would likely just play Sleight of Hand to help make the deck a little more consistent. The artifact cyclers are great and all, but some dig spells will really help you find that Second Sunrise.
I'd also likely take out the Ghost Quarter disruption main, as just the 8 Island and 8 Artifacts can make it really hard to hit double Blue for Reshape main deck by turn 2/3, which lessens the chance that you'll hit your God Draw Turn 2 kill. So overall, here are my basic thoughts:
-4 Ghost Quarter
-1 Disciple of the Vault
-1 Laboratory Maniac
+1 Breeding Pool
+2 Island
+1 Misty Rainforest
+2 Sleight of Hand
Again, the Breeding Pool is just to give you another option if you happen to have Reclaim in your hand. In a pinch, you can start the combo if you also have Reclaim and Edge of Autumn, then hope to draw into Sunbeam/Noxious Revival, etc. It costs some life, but it's basically just to increase the chance that you can blow someone out by Turn 4, by which point in time you'll hopefully still have the 4-8 life it'll take to pull this off.
I actually really like this deck, and I think I'm going to start testing it using your list as the base. I was sad when I couldn't really play Noxious Revival/Pyromancer Ascension combo anymore (basically because Ponder/Preordain made the deck work), so this is a welcome list that's similar enough to Eggs that I should be able to pick it up quickly.
I would say that the 4 Ghost Quarter main is actually part of the key to the deck. Without them we would stall far more easily.
The multiple wins are basically to allow for options really. I didn't have the Riddlesmith Locket combo in originally and had SoH and even Serum Visions in a couple of slots (it was the "Vanilla" version), but it just felt like it needed more meat. I could very well move the Lab Maniac into the side (I think he's better game two since they side out creature removal against us), and I need to test a bit more before I'm 100% sold on the Riddlesmiths...
Swamp: If you’re splashing for Spoils of the Vault, this is a must-have.
This is why you have eggs. Spoils is a mid-combo card, not a combo initializer, you're more likely to fail if you're using Spoils to start as opposed to finish. You want it to bridge after the first Sunrise, not to get the first sunrise. You want to have probably less than 40 cards in your deck when you use it (because the RNG of it will be awful otherwise vs anything that hits you on T4)
Secondly: I think there's a few card choices that should be discussed.
1) Kill Cons: Grapeshot, Pyrite Spellbomb, Disciple of the Vault vs Temple Bell, USZ, and Pyrite Spellbomb. If you've established the combo... which is better? I mean, you can hypothetically assume you're able to generate infinite amounts of mana... The difference is, in my mind: 1) Melira combo forces you to actually do an infinite amount of damage, which, means you're fighting an uphill battle of making Grapeshot infinite (doable), or going off with spellbomb (also good). USZ I think is superior for that... Disciple is great vs Aggro, but... generally? We should beat Zoo and Jund and Affinity by the very nature of the deck. USZ also helps combo with Krack Clan Ironworks to draw your deck faster, and then draw them out. Grapeshot may be fine from the Sideboard, but as a MD choice, I think it's lacking.
2) I think NOT running KCI is an awful idea. How do you run this deck without a solid sac outlet? Beyond me. If you drop this, you can no longer get blown out by spell pierce. Is that good? Yeah. Remand becomes easy to deal with. It's a non-necessary lynchpin that fuels the deck beyond simple lotus blooms. KCI also allows you to run... 2-3 more eggs in Terrarion. I like tossing those in because they're easy to sideboard out, they draw on sac, and gives you a nice spot to toss your Darksteel Citadel for an extra 2. Oh. And Ichor Wellspring. That card single-handedly draws your deck with a sac outlet.
3) Leyline of Sanctity is a card that's good against Melira Pod, and de facto us... So, if you can't target them with Pyrite Spellbomb, Disciple, or Grapeshot... you don't actually have to board in wipe aways/echoing truth's for one card... because you have... Temple Bell. Let me officially present this nugget to the thread:
Temple Bell requires you to use the following cards. 2x Baubles, 1x Temple Bell, 1x KCI (aka the sac outlet), 1x Noxious Revival, 1x Egg, 1x Second Sunrise.
Assume zero cards in your library & Temple Bell is in play, the doomsday stack goes like such:
1) Get Noxious Revival into your hand.
2) Pay Noxious Revival (via egg) and put Second Sunrise on top.
3) Bauble Noxious Revival to the Bottom and Draw Second Sunrise.
4) Temple Bell, drawing Noxious Revival.
5) Sac Temple Bell to KCI
6) Second Sunrise, getting back 2 Baubles, Temple Bell.
7) Go to Step 2, using the KCI mana to egg.
Non-Targeting way to kill your opponent. I figure it's useful to know in the future that there's more ways out there that can get around shroud effects.
I'll probably be testing a combination of the techniques listed above for GP:Lincoln.
Edit: Ghost Quarters is NON NEGOTIABLE. That card isn't used 'for disruption' it's used on yourself to generate more mana. Riddlesmith/Locket seems meh, and not advancing the main points in the deck, and causes you to dilute it more. It's really why Spoils of the Vault is so fantastic. You don't really need any more than 1 Pithing Needle to reshape into. If you're playing around graveyard hate, the only one you need to be worried about specifically is: Extirpate. Relic and Tormod's Crypt are easier to play around, but Extirpate? That's a pain. Surgical Extraction, you can beat by casting a Noxious Revival. Spoils is ALSO an instant to play more defensive if you're without a Noxious Revival.
It's much harder g2, but once you see what their hate cards are, g3 is much easier. Win G1. That's all there is to it.
Un autre con brandit le drapeau de la nouvelle économie. Agitant sa criminelle thérapie, l'abruti prophá¨te s'en va guerrir le monde de ses maux ! Mais la misá¨re n'a que faire de cette médecine á dose homeopathétique, Il n'y a d'autre cure que l'ablation du liberal-fascisme qui nous ronge. - Amanda Woodward, Un Autre Con
First of all, Disciple deals infinite damage just the same as pyrite spellbomb, and can't be killed by anything except path to exile (sunrise brings it back if simply destroyed).
Multiple win-cons are useful for two reasons. One, if you opponent is waiting to get rid of it permanently, you have a second one in store. Second, and more importantly, your opponent will associate your win with whatever card you used to win (probably). Thus, if you use grapeshot to win, they will sideboard in storm hate. If you use disciple or laboratory maniac, creature hate. This is what makes multiple win-cons important.
And yeah, Ghost quarters can in no way come out of the deck. Absolutely not. Remember that on the turn you go off, each ghost quarter counts as blue mana (you float mana from an island, pop it with a quarter, fetch an island).
I think that the deck is already packed with options as it is, and that there is no room for cantrips like sleight of hand. You are paying 1 mana for 1 card out of 2. For comparison, each egg is likely to net you 4-5 cards before you go infinite officially. How can we play a card that is so bad in comparison to the eggs? All the card draw needs to be permanent based. Period. The only exceptions i can think of are gitaxian probe and manamorphose because they don't cost mana, but i don't even think they are worth the slots.
Essentially, Laboratory Maniac = Temple Bell in that both provide you with a win-con that gets past player shroud and protection. Of the two, Temple bell is clearly better as a reshape-sac outlet and an extra two draws on the turn you go off (one at opponent's eot, one when you go off). I think i'm going with temple bell.
Krack-Clan Ironworks seems sort of unnecessary, in that the deck is so tight already and I never have mana problems when i go off (either from multiple ghost quarters and fetchlands or from at least 1 lotus bloom). Game 1 you hope your opponent doesn't have the spell pierce, and game 2 defense grid comes in. I may be wrong, but i don't see why a 4 mana artifact is necessary, especially when it doesn't produce mana.
TL;DR: Instant/Sorcery cantrips are bad, Disciple goes infinite just as well as Pyrite Spellbomb, Temple Bell > Laboratory Maniac, Ghost quarters are absolutely manditory, Ironworks seems dubious and not needed.
First of all, Disciple deals infinite damage just the same as pyrite spellbomb, and can't be killed by anything except path to exile (sunrise brings it back if simply destroyed).
True, but he's still not necessary. More on that after the next quote.
Multiple win-cons are useful for two reasons. One, if you opponent is waiting to get rid of it permanently, you have a second one in store. Second, and more importantly, your opponent will associate your win with whatever card you used to win (probably). Thus, if you use grapeshot to win, they will sideboard in storm hate. If you use disciple or laboratory maniac, creature hate. This is what makes multiple win-cons important.
Multiple win cons are definitely important; I'll agree with that. However, Disciple of the Vault, Laboratory Maniac, etc. are not extra win cons. They still require you to go off with Second Sunrise. Second Sunrise is the win condition, so you can't assume that you are playing a bad opponent who is going to attempt to Extirpate your Pyrite Spellbomb; they're going to hit Second Sunrise. Once you are completely without Second Sunrise, you lose the game. That's why I stated that Locket/Grapeshot was actually a viable secondary win condition: You can create a large enough Storm, without going infinite, to kill someone with Grapeshot. Disciple and Laboratory Manic are just eating good spots that don't accomplish anything against good opponents. I always build my decks assuming that I am going to be playing against the best Magic players available, not the mediocre or worse ones.
And yeah, Ghost quarters can in no way come out of the deck. Absolutely not. Remember that on the turn you go off, each ghost quarter counts as blue mana (you float mana from an island, pop it with a quarter, fetch an island).
You are absolutely right. I wasn't looking at that at first; I was wrong about that card. I would still consider not running four, as I can still only play one per turn, and I imagine it will frequently be on the turn you go off, but I completely missed the tons of extra mana / land thinning this accomplishes at first. This is largely also due to the fact that I would opt to run Sleight of Hand / Spoils of the Vault in the deck, as well, which increases my need for colored mana (and I'd rather have it available on demand instead of relying on an Egg).
I think that the deck is already packed with options as it is, and that there is no room for cantrips like sleight of hand. You are paying 1 mana for 1 card out of 2. For comparison, each egg is likely to net you 4-5 cards before you go infinite officially. How can we play a card that is so bad in comparison to the eggs? All the card draw needs to be permanent based. Period. The only exceptions i can think of are gitaxian probe and manamorphose because they don't cost mana, but i don't even think they are worth the slots.
Because the point of Sleight of Hand is to find you the cards you need to get you the extra value out of your Eggs. Without finding the synergies/combos needed in the deck, each Egg just replaces itself at a slower rate than Sleight of Hand. Sleight of Hand will more quickly find you the Reshape/Sunrise that you need to go off; it will do so earlier, giving you more information on what you need to go off and allowing you to more efficiently use your mana earlier to accomplish that. It's not Ponder or Preordain, but it's the next best thing.
Essentially, Laboratory Maniac = Temple Bell in that both provide you with a win-con that gets past player shroud and protection. Of the two, Temple bell is clearly better as a reshape-sac outlet and an extra two draws on the turn you go off (one at opponent's eot, one when you go off). I think i'm going with temple bell.
They get past Shroud and Protection, true, but assuming that you don't need to get around that, as will be the case against most decks, then they are not actually extra win cons. You still need to fully assemble your combo in order to win with those cards unless your opponent somehow fails to kill you in 10+ turns.
Krack-Clan Ironworks seems sort of unnecessary, in that the deck is so tight already and I never have mana problems when i go off (either from multiple ghost quarters and fetchlands or from at least 1 lotus bloom). Game 1 you hope your opponent doesn't have the spell pierce, and game 2 defense grid comes in. I may be wrong, but i don't see why a 4 mana artifact is necessary, especially when it doesn't produce mana.
I'll agree with this. There are cheaper, better answers available for G2, and G1 it's simply not necessary 90% of the time.
So to sum up, I did misevaluate a couple of the cards at first, but there are still a couple of wasted slots. We can use better cards than extraneous "win conditions."
Wait. Ironworks produce mana... Unless they stifle it, you're at the very least, getting netural mana off of one sunrise? Krack-Clan Ironworks is my meh card. But I play to it MOSTLY for the sac outlet to garner more cards off Ichor Wellspring and Terrarion... If there was a better sac outlet, I might... It's really used between the first and second sunrise to draw into the sunrise (or others) by sacing all of those Wellsprings for 2,3,4 cards... A sac outlet is VERY good if you're heavy on those, and not as heavy on eggs themselves. It's something I'm not set on, but I kinda like. Edit 1: If it wasn't Terrarions & Wellsprings, it'd have to be other cantrips.
I play it as a 2 of, and cut it vs most control decks (but leave it vs most combo decks)
Eggs > Every other cantrip. Period.
I go back and forth between defense grid and silence... Both have their merits though...
I'm rather defensive when it comes to path, ergo... I don't actually ever feel like playing disciple. Out of the win cons, I feel it's still below grapeshot, temple bell, pyrite, and USZ because of the commonness of the 'out' to it. Grapeshot has the off shot of being Mindbreak Trapped (with storm combo maybe existing, I think it's not wrong to think that it might be a valid SB card in the near future)... So. That's really my rationale for the choices, just to... notate.
Un autre con brandit le drapeau de la nouvelle économie. Agitant sa criminelle thérapie, l'abruti prophá¨te s'en va guerrir le monde de ses maux ! Mais la misá¨re n'a que faire de cette médecine á dose homeopathétique, Il n'y a d'autre cure que l'ablation du liberal-fascisme qui nous ronge. - Amanda Woodward, Un Autre Con
If you're using KCI to make Wellsprings and Terrarion better, than I would say that most of us just aren't running those cards and are using eggs that can sac themselves.
I'm also not a fan of Bell because you're letting them draw cards. The last thing we want is for them to pull out a counterspell from thin air. If modern really is as fast as they say, I'd rather not give them an out in case I fizzle. Heck, I'd rather give them the a feeling that they should scoop as opposed to watching me go through the motions. Temple Bell will at least give them hope that they'll draw an answer. I'd simply rather use Lab Maniac, and I agree that he basically does the same thing, only won't have to target them in case they have a Leyline or some trick to protect themselves.
The eggs were from odyssey, not invasion.
Invasion was 3 blocks two early for modern, Odyssey was two blocks too early. Not sure which you were trying to reference, but either way needs fixing.
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haha no problem
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RIP Eggs
My Trade Thread
UR Storm WUBRG Sunnyside Up W Death+Taxes BR 7->0:60 Discard
EDH
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Standardized the the title-print for each section and subsection (still working out some things, but it's still better now).
Will also get to a few other fixes later, like editing the card choices list and adding a few that weren't mentioned, as well as putting in somewhere on the first post who has contributed at one point or another.
Oh, and the other 2 example lists will be posted soon, and a personal lists section will be added as well, right at the end of the first post.
Been testing greater gargadon, as he was test fodder for extended eggs when wotc released that set. Having trouble figuring out what exactly comes out for him, but he does add a way for us to have both a wincon and a mass sac outlet in one. Testing...
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UR Storm WUBRG Sunnyside Up W Death+Taxes BR 7->0:60 Discard
EDH
GU Vig RWU Zedruu BR Olivia
Play Magic online free with GCCG!
Download it here -- (My Username is ShinkyP)
Trade Thread: Here!
well, gargadons get sacced to eachother in response, and still come back with sunrise. So far that I've been testing it, I ran into a huge discrepancy with gargadon though. It really forces you to wait for turn 4 before playing sunrise if you have only gargadon and basic lands. This is trouble, because i was using him to act as land recursion 9-12 along with fetches and ghost quarter. But without ghost quarter or fetches, you can't do any further thinning off of just gargadon, so you still have to wait for ghost quarter or not play a land and just wait for ghost quarter to be drawn off of an artifact.
And i tested out ichor with it, seeing as it can sac artifacts too, which means we could have a total of 8 sac outlets for it in the deck. Of course, the usual issue of those two cards not seeing the board at the same time is still kinda frustrating. Not as frustrating with gargadon in the deck, but still pretty bad. But, whenever they were there together, I've literally so far in testing... never fizzled. Something to be said about 2 garanteed draws off of 1 rock every single time you sunrise. You get 2 out there, it's a free draw4 every iteration. Makes ichor a really expensive, but usually high priority target for both reshaping and for paying reshape.
Biggest issue is just slots at this point. There's now way too much tech floating around, not quite doing the same exact jobs, all vying for a spot that is way too small without proper cheap tutoring (which we don't have). Makes me sad.
I think some version would make gargadon work, but right now I'm not sure it's a version I want to play, to be honest.
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This is exactly it! The deck is so specialized and tuned at this point that each card serves a specific niche function and is very hard to replace without overhauling the deck (eg- more traditional vs. Lotus Cobra builds). Ive wanted to clear out some room to add one or 2 more win cons in order to have Pyrite, Bitter Ordeal, and Lab Maniac in the deck just in case. However Im finding trouble replacing things as the deck already runs so smoothly as is. When I replace the eggs I fizzle a lot more than normal. When I replace lands I cannot go off as early as I would like. And the problems go on and on.
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Don't think of the slots as set by the cards that occupy them, but by the effects the cards have. You need a certain number of each of these effects. If you have something that draws, it can only be replaced by something else that draws, or if something makes your draws stronger, you have to siphon a bit back. The same goes for mana accel and such. That's how the deck balances itself. What I meant was that there's so much tech now that does something specialized or is a hybrid of 2 or more effects, that it's hard to find the right balance between redundancy, recurrability, and cost. This deck does have a curve so to speak, and that's what sets our bar for the setup part of the combo. Part of the issue is also balancing between 2 mana
engines, that of artifact mana and that of lands.
I'm personally testing a lot of different cards right now because I'm looking to speed the deck up, but if you were to ask me to sleeve something up, I'd go with something heavy on redundancy with a 2nd wincon, like riddlesmith locket version like in the example list currently posted.
I also have a version that uses lotus cobra to push through the mana heavy builds that run reclaims and open the vaults in order to strengthen each individual draw. That one is pretty straight forward and consistent, though tricky to play. In the end, if it's not working for you, don't use it.
I'll post up a decent version of that and a vanilla in the next day or so.
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8 Island
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Misty Rainforest
Critters
3 Riddlesmith
1 Disciple of the Vault
1 Laboratory Maniac
Spells
4 Second Sunrise
4 Noxious Revival
1 Reclaim
4 Reshape
4 Edge of Autumn
1 Grapeshot
1 Locket of Yesterdays
4 Conjurer's Bauble
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Chromatic Star
4 Lotus Bloom
4 Elsewhere Flask
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Grapeshot
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 Sunbeam Spellbomb
3 Pithing Needle
4 Wipe Away
2 Blasphemous Act
A few thoughts:
I'm not sure I see the point in having so many win conditions in the main deck. Are you worried about Cranial Extraction or some similar card? If so, you aren't fighting those cards very well, as any card that can Exile all of your Lotus Bloom or Second Sunrise will still stop you from being able to combo.
I doubt many people will be playing Cranial Extraction, but Surgical Extraction is definitely something you will come across in people's sideboards. Getting rid of some of the win conditions should actually make you more versatile and consistent against decks doing so, as it allows you more space in your deck for things like Mindbreak Trap / Pact of Negation.
Grapeshot/Locket is really the only true alternate win condition (technically, it could be Disciple/Locket, but I'd rather have the Storm combo than a 1/1 I have to keep alive on the field). Laboratory Maniac and Disciple are just win-more cards at that point. In the place for the main deck, I would likely just play Sleight of Hand to help make the deck a little more consistent. The artifact cyclers are great and all, but some dig spells will really help you find that Second Sunrise.
I'd also likely take out the Ghost Quarter disruption main, as just the 8 Island and 8 Artifacts can make it really hard to hit double Blue for Reshape main deck by turn 2/3, which lessens the chance that you'll hit your God Draw Turn 2 kill. So overall, here are my basic thoughts:
-4 Ghost Quarter
-1 Disciple of the Vault
-1 Laboratory Maniac
+1 Breeding Pool
+2 Island
+1 Misty Rainforest
+2 Sleight of Hand
Again, the Breeding Pool is just to give you another option if you happen to have Reclaim in your hand. In a pinch, you can start the combo if you also have Reclaim and Edge of Autumn, then hope to draw into Sunbeam/Noxious Revival, etc. It costs some life, but it's basically just to increase the chance that you can blow someone out by Turn 4, by which point in time you'll hopefully still have the 4-8 life it'll take to pull this off.
I actually really like this deck, and I think I'm going to start testing it using your list as the base. I was sad when I couldn't really play Noxious Revival/Pyromancer Ascension combo anymore (basically because Ponder/Preordain made the deck work), so this is a welcome list that's similar enough to Eggs that I should be able to pick it up quickly.
Cheers.
The multiple wins are basically to allow for options really. I didn't have the Riddlesmith Locket combo in originally and had SoH and even Serum Visions in a couple of slots (it was the "Vanilla" version), but it just felt like it needed more meat. I could very well move the Lab Maniac into the side (I think he's better game two since they side out creature removal against us), and I need to test a bit more before I'm 100% sold on the Riddlesmiths...
Re: the Primer
This is why you have eggs. Spoils is a mid-combo card, not a combo initializer, you're more likely to fail if you're using Spoils to start as opposed to finish. You want it to bridge after the first Sunrise, not to get the first sunrise. You want to have probably less than 40 cards in your deck when you use it (because the RNG of it will be awful otherwise vs anything that hits you on T4)
Secondly: I think there's a few card choices that should be discussed.
1) Kill Cons: Grapeshot, Pyrite Spellbomb, Disciple of the Vault vs Temple Bell, USZ, and Pyrite Spellbomb. If you've established the combo... which is better? I mean, you can hypothetically assume you're able to generate infinite amounts of mana... The difference is, in my mind: 1) Melira combo forces you to actually do an infinite amount of damage, which, means you're fighting an uphill battle of making Grapeshot infinite (doable), or going off with spellbomb (also good). USZ I think is superior for that... Disciple is great vs Aggro, but... generally? We should beat Zoo and Jund and Affinity by the very nature of the deck. USZ also helps combo with Krack Clan Ironworks to draw your deck faster, and then draw them out. Grapeshot may be fine from the Sideboard, but as a MD choice, I think it's lacking.
2) I think NOT running KCI is an awful idea. How do you run this deck without a solid sac outlet? Beyond me. If you drop this, you can no longer get blown out by spell pierce. Is that good? Yeah. Remand becomes easy to deal with. It's a non-necessary lynchpin that fuels the deck beyond simple lotus blooms. KCI also allows you to run... 2-3 more eggs in Terrarion. I like tossing those in because they're easy to sideboard out, they draw on sac, and gives you a nice spot to toss your Darksteel Citadel for an extra 2. Oh. And Ichor Wellspring. That card single-handedly draws your deck with a sac outlet.
3) Leyline of Sanctity is a card that's good against Melira Pod, and de facto us... So, if you can't target them with Pyrite Spellbomb, Disciple, or Grapeshot... you don't actually have to board in wipe aways/echoing truth's for one card... because you have... Temple Bell. Let me officially present this nugget to the thread:
Temple Bell requires you to use the following cards. 2x Baubles, 1x Temple Bell, 1x KCI (aka the sac outlet), 1x Noxious Revival, 1x Egg, 1x Second Sunrise.
Assume zero cards in your library & Temple Bell is in play, the doomsday stack goes like such:
1) Get Noxious Revival into your hand.
2) Pay Noxious Revival (via egg) and put Second Sunrise on top.
3) Bauble Noxious Revival to the Bottom and Draw Second Sunrise.
4) Temple Bell, drawing Noxious Revival.
5) Sac Temple Bell to KCI
6) Second Sunrise, getting back 2 Baubles, Temple Bell.
7) Go to Step 2, using the KCI mana to egg.
Non-Targeting way to kill your opponent. I figure it's useful to know in the future that there's more ways out there that can get around shroud effects.
I'll probably be testing a combination of the techniques listed above for GP:Lincoln.
Edit: Ghost Quarters is NON NEGOTIABLE. That card isn't used 'for disruption' it's used on yourself to generate more mana. Riddlesmith/Locket seems meh, and not advancing the main points in the deck, and causes you to dilute it more. It's really why Spoils of the Vault is so fantastic. You don't really need any more than 1 Pithing Needle to reshape into. If you're playing around graveyard hate, the only one you need to be worried about specifically is: Extirpate. Relic and Tormod's Crypt are easier to play around, but Extirpate? That's a pain. Surgical Extraction, you can beat by casting a Noxious Revival. Spoils is ALSO an instant to play more defensive if you're without a Noxious Revival.
It's much harder g2, but once you see what their hate cards are, g3 is much easier. Win G1. That's all there is to it.
Multiple win-cons are useful for two reasons. One, if you opponent is waiting to get rid of it permanently, you have a second one in store. Second, and more importantly, your opponent will associate your win with whatever card you used to win (probably). Thus, if you use grapeshot to win, they will sideboard in storm hate. If you use disciple or laboratory maniac, creature hate. This is what makes multiple win-cons important.
And yeah, Ghost quarters can in no way come out of the deck. Absolutely not. Remember that on the turn you go off, each ghost quarter counts as blue mana (you float mana from an island, pop it with a quarter, fetch an island).
I think that the deck is already packed with options as it is, and that there is no room for cantrips like sleight of hand. You are paying 1 mana for 1 card out of 2. For comparison, each egg is likely to net you 4-5 cards before you go infinite officially. How can we play a card that is so bad in comparison to the eggs? All the card draw needs to be permanent based. Period. The only exceptions i can think of are gitaxian probe and manamorphose because they don't cost mana, but i don't even think they are worth the slots.
Essentially, Laboratory Maniac = Temple Bell in that both provide you with a win-con that gets past player shroud and protection. Of the two, Temple bell is clearly better as a reshape-sac outlet and an extra two draws on the turn you go off (one at opponent's eot, one when you go off). I think i'm going with temple bell.
Krack-Clan Ironworks seems sort of unnecessary, in that the deck is so tight already and I never have mana problems when i go off (either from multiple ghost quarters and fetchlands or from at least 1 lotus bloom). Game 1 you hope your opponent doesn't have the spell pierce, and game 2 defense grid comes in. I may be wrong, but i don't see why a 4 mana artifact is necessary, especially when it doesn't produce mana.
TL;DR: Instant/Sorcery cantrips are bad, Disciple goes infinite just as well as Pyrite Spellbomb, Temple Bell > Laboratory Maniac, Ghost quarters are absolutely manditory, Ironworks seems dubious and not needed.
UR Storm WUBRG Sunnyside Up W Death+Taxes BR 7->0:60 Discard
EDH
GU Vig RWU Zedruu BR Olivia
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True, but he's still not necessary. More on that after the next quote.
Multiple win cons are definitely important; I'll agree with that. However, Disciple of the Vault, Laboratory Maniac, etc. are not extra win cons. They still require you to go off with Second Sunrise. Second Sunrise is the win condition, so you can't assume that you are playing a bad opponent who is going to attempt to Extirpate your Pyrite Spellbomb; they're going to hit Second Sunrise. Once you are completely without Second Sunrise, you lose the game. That's why I stated that Locket/Grapeshot was actually a viable secondary win condition: You can create a large enough Storm, without going infinite, to kill someone with Grapeshot. Disciple and Laboratory Manic are just eating good spots that don't accomplish anything against good opponents. I always build my decks assuming that I am going to be playing against the best Magic players available, not the mediocre or worse ones.
You are absolutely right. I wasn't looking at that at first; I was wrong about that card. I would still consider not running four, as I can still only play one per turn, and I imagine it will frequently be on the turn you go off, but I completely missed the tons of extra mana / land thinning this accomplishes at first. This is largely also due to the fact that I would opt to run Sleight of Hand / Spoils of the Vault in the deck, as well, which increases my need for colored mana (and I'd rather have it available on demand instead of relying on an Egg).
Because the point of Sleight of Hand is to find you the cards you need to get you the extra value out of your Eggs. Without finding the synergies/combos needed in the deck, each Egg just replaces itself at a slower rate than Sleight of Hand. Sleight of Hand will more quickly find you the Reshape/Sunrise that you need to go off; it will do so earlier, giving you more information on what you need to go off and allowing you to more efficiently use your mana earlier to accomplish that. It's not Ponder or Preordain, but it's the next best thing.
They get past Shroud and Protection, true, but assuming that you don't need to get around that, as will be the case against most decks, then they are not actually extra win cons. You still need to fully assemble your combo in order to win with those cards unless your opponent somehow fails to kill you in 10+ turns.
I'll agree with this. There are cheaper, better answers available for G2, and G1 it's simply not necessary 90% of the time.
So to sum up, I did misevaluate a couple of the cards at first, but there are still a couple of wasted slots. We can use better cards than extraneous "win conditions."
I play it as a 2 of, and cut it vs most control decks (but leave it vs most combo decks)
Eggs > Every other cantrip. Period.
I go back and forth between defense grid and silence... Both have their merits though...
I'm rather defensive when it comes to path, ergo... I don't actually ever feel like playing disciple. Out of the win cons, I feel it's still below grapeshot, temple bell, pyrite, and USZ because of the commonness of the 'out' to it. Grapeshot has the off shot of being Mindbreak Trapped (with storm combo maybe existing, I think it's not wrong to think that it might be a valid SB card in the near future)... So. That's really my rationale for the choices, just to... notate.
I'm also not a fan of Bell because you're letting them draw cards. The last thing we want is for them to pull out a counterspell from thin air. If modern really is as fast as they say, I'd rather not give them an out in case I fizzle. Heck, I'd rather give them the a feeling that they should scoop as opposed to watching me go through the motions. Temple Bell will at least give them hope that they'll draw an answer. I'd simply rather use Lab Maniac, and I agree that he basically does the same thing, only won't have to target them in case they have a Leyline or some trick to protect themselves.