From playing both at different FNM's I just love the options that come with Knight. Even if he is stuck smaller, his ability to fetch manlands, vault of the archangel, ghost quarters, gavony township (build depending), bojuka bog, sejiri steppe and so on has always provided me more than the 5/5 body of doran. Even with deathrite, I 1, haven't found myself using him for ramp much beyond a time or two early on and 2, an active knight can bin 2 lands a turn which stays ahead of deathrite. One can also look at knight as a tool "tooo ramp" as he can keep fueling deathrite if needed. My personal experiences have just preferred the vast utility of Knight over doran even if he averages being a smaller body.
However, Doran does allow for some humorous interactions - my favorite being the nullification of cranial plating
I've said this before already, but I feel like I need to say it again because I still believe people are far underestimating the combination of these two cards.
I'm not saying KotR and DRS are completely benificial to each other, nor do I think that they both don't have downsides. However, I am way more pleased with KotR over any other 3 drop or 4 drop beater for this deck.
KotR took me a while to figure out how to build around and play with. It's not as easy to use as in other decks, especially like with maverick in legacy. For a while, I was almost beginning to believe that it wasn't optimal as something like loxodon smiter, but after playing with her for the past couple of months, I've really gotten the hang of it, and I really like having this card in my deck for several reasons.
In all of my times of playing KotR and DRS in the same deck, I have never had issues where I wish DRS wasn't eating lands out of my graveyard, even if my opponents are playing DRS. A turn 1 DRS followed by a turn 2 KotR is one of the strongest plays this deck can make. For the first couple of turns, KotR is likely going to be small, especially if you and your opponent are using DRS, but late game, DRS isn't eating lands anymore, instead they're being used to manipulate life totals. At this point, if your opponent is using DRS to shrink your KotR, who cares? Not only can KotR dump lands into the yard faster than DRS can eat them, but you can do far more things with your lands than DRS can do to stop your KotR. If worse comes to worse, you can just get a manland and kill them with that instead.
Knight of the Reliquary can be any size it needs to be. Often times I've found myself in a spot where our largest beater, tarmogoyf, just can't be big enough to keep me from getting overrun or shut out by another massive threat, especially with the increasing popularity of things such as restoration angel, thragtusk, and other threats that can rival tarmogoyf's large butt. Sometimes a 4/4 for 3 isn't good enough, neither is a 5/6 for 2. But KotR can be any size it needs to be for 3. Against decks employing liliana or counterspells where loxodon smiter could be really good, I still prefer KotR. This deck needs the ability to play the stack in order for it to succeed and regardless of whether or not it gets countered or removed or something like that, KotR is far more a threat to the control decks than loxodon smiter for many different reasons. Those reasons include the ability to blow up their manlands, or get your own, the ability to draw cards, and the ability to protect your KotR from being removed. Against combo, it still isn't the greatest, but it beats out loxodon smiter by a huge amount here. Combo decks don't care about a 4/4 for 3. As long as it doesn't kill them before their combo turn, it won't affect them. They do, however, care about being able to tutor up land destruction (like tron), or Graveyard hate (like unburial rites/gifts) to stop their strategy.
Loxodon smiter is just a beat stick. KotR can be much more than just a beat stick. KotR can make so many more plays than any other creature in the deck. You have so many options with KotR, Loxodon smiter is just another dude. What KotR lacks for in speed, it makes up for and surpasses in utility. Loxodon smiter's speed isn't really good enough to be relevant in most matchups.
This was before they were going to print scavenging ooze, so obviously some things have changed a bit. In my opinion, scavenging ooze will not push out either tarmogoyf or KotR. Both cards are flat out better than scavenging ooze in most cases. What made scavenging ooze so big in legacy was the ability to green sun for it to hate out the popular deck at the time, which was griselbrand reanimator. Essentially, scavenging ooze was a silver bullet in that deck. I don't know how it reached $30 dollars as a singleton in a now-dead legacy deck, but it's playability in legacy outside maverick is very little.
But we're not discussing legacy. Things are different in modern, obviously. Scavenging ooze will have a different impact on the format. First of all, it will be the most popular budget tarmogoyf replacement, which is fair enough, considering it's a really great 2-drop in green. Whether or not it will replace tarmogoyf depends on the deck. For this deck, it probably won't. Tarmogoyf is too versatile and efficient at what it does to be replaced: it stops aggro because it's a massive blocker, and it puts pressure on combo and control as a massive attacker. Scavenging ooze comes into play, and cannot do either unless you dump mana into it. For this deck, it may take a place beside tarmogoyf, but, like I said, it will probably not replace it. However, it is still a great choice, and if you don't play it in your main board, it's a good consideration for your sideboard.
It could, however, possibly replace some of the other creatures such as KotR, smiter, doran, etc. Each of those creature has different applications and uses for this deck. Scavenging ooze could be one of your options in your deck.
I, personally, am going to stick with KotR, goyf, DRS, and bob as my creatures. I may replace one or both of my finks with the ooze, or I may just sideboard a copy or two. I don't know yet for sure, but it will not make a huge change in my list when it's released.
As for doran; doran is still good, but his applications are different. He plays a much more aggro role in most cases.
Actually, I forgot to mention, scavenging ooze could be very important in the mirror match ups for this deck. Since it will likely go to late game in the mirror, and both decks will have plenty of mana about, having ooze could give you the upper hand, being able to shrink goyfs or KotR's quite significantly if need be, whilst also being able to gain life.
I think what a lot of people are thinking is that ooze hates goyf and KotR out a lot...well, it doesn't. It can help, but in a real game against any B/G/x midrange deck, there's going to be tons of cards in the graveyard unless all you did was spend mana to eat cards out of the graveyard, which any player would be happy with, considering you didn't use that mana to do other more important things. Ooze is good, and he helps, but don't think that your ooze is going to stop KotR or a tarmogoyf single-handedly. For most decks, it's still easier to just play rest in peace or relic of progenitus.
I've tried Scavenging Ooze in Pod and GW Hatebears, and I've found that Ooze can actually shrink Goyf fairly fast (can definitely suck out oddball artifacts and walkers on the 1st turn, Goyf is probably 3/4 at best after the 3rd turn, Goyf is probably 2/3 or 1/2 after the 5th turn). I haven't tested against Knight of the Reliquary yet, but since I tend to have at least GG open whenever I stick an Ooze, I predict that KotR is either forced to not attack or shrinks by 2 power every turn (of course, I get distracted sucking up creatures first, but that still helps Ooze outsize KotR).
I've tried Scavenging Ooze in Pod and GW Hatebears, and I've found that Ooze can actually shrink Goyf fairly fast (can definitely suck out oddball artifacts and walkers on the 1st turn, Goyf is probably 3/4 at best after the 3rd turn, Goyf is probably 2/3 or 1/2 after the 5th turn). I haven't tested against Knight of the Reliquary yet, but since I tend to have at least GG open whenever I stick an Ooze, I predict that KotR is either forced to not attack or shrinks by 2 power every turn (of course, I get distracted sucking up creatures first, but that still helps Ooze outsize KotR).
Good point. I'd imagine having an ooze early in the game really helps stop goyf and KotR, assuming it doesn't get removed. Late game, it will take a lot of catching up to do to race a goyf or KotR, but I suppose if you have the mana you can catch up pretty quick. Ooze I think will be a really good addition to pod and G/W hatebears.
Regarding KotR I want to quote Mr. Kibler who, as you know, is playing this card a lot. He thought that KotR was positioned poorly in modern (regarding his GP decklist) because he is victim of much splash - hate (eg. deathrite) but he said that he was wrong. KotR just needs the right shell which is a shell with enough spot-removal (4 lightning bolts + other removal) to eliminate threads like deathrite shaman, furthermore KotR easily outgrows goyf mid/late-game.
I think ooze and knight are awesome, ooze enables players who do not want to spend 260€ for a playset of goyfs to play a good substitute. Most important is that ooze costs only 2 mana which is a key-argument.
Due to the topic of utility lands: the best lands to fetch with KotR are:
1.) Slayers Stronghold: easiest, tutor-able and not mana intense way to get vigilance - attack and the possibility to use her ability
2.) vault of the archangel: deathtouch/lifelink are just awesome
3.) kessig wolfrun: makes even a deathrite shaman a lategame bomb and helps against chump blockers (especially lingering souls tokens)
Phil
We don't typically play red for those particular lands, those are more for the zoo variants, but they are indeed good plays.
The lands you play all depend on your deck. People think without wasteland and maze of ith, KotR doesn't have the lands it needs to be successful, but I disagree. There's plenty of decent lands in modern to play with if you have KotR.
So do any of you test on Cockatrice or another simulator? I've been thinking of switching over to Modern from Standard for good, and this archetype caught my eye, but the price tags of some of the staples makes me want to get several solid games in before making any decisions. Also, if someone knows where I can download the Cockatrice program, that'd be very helpful since I deleted mine a while back.
So do any of you test on Cockatrice or another simulator? I've been thinking of switching over to Modern from Standard for good, and this archetype caught my eye, but the price tags of some of the staples makes me want to get several solid games in before making any decisions. Also, if someone knows where I can download the Cockatrice program, that'd be very helpful since I deleted mine a while back.
Pssst...I think play.woogerworks.com has a working Cockatrice download. Getting cards.xml in the right place in your computer can be tricky, though.
Intially I was doubtful about Elspeth, Knight-Errant, however ever since play testing with her I have come to really like her in the deck, much more than Ajani Vengeant in Ajani Jund. She provides pressure and evasion when needed to close out a game as well as an out to gridlocks where you protect her until you ultimate with her emblem then grind your opponent into the dust with an indestructible field.
In terms of the manabase, the twilight mire makes incoming ooze a much more useful sideboard card as well as tying up loose ends in the mana base as double black for Lily is very important. Vault of the Archangel is an amazing utility land that can reverse game states and gives a ton of value to my tokens. 4 Stirring Wildwood... Why not?
4 Thoughtseize, I believe if your list has decent life gain potential, then no reason to hold back on thoughtseize, its the best at what it does despite the additional price to pay, though if you seize someone and they have no legal target at least you won't lose 2 life, same if it lures out a counterspell. I much prefer seize because you often want to hit outside of abrupt decay's range such as birthing pod, wurmcoil engine, splinter twin, thrun, wraths, etc.
So for the Voice of Resurgence, the important point to consider is not just are they worth it? Its to also consider what would be better to play instead of them? Nothing outright. Lets consider their strengths, the core of the deck is very solid and they synergize extremely well with the play style of the deck and draw away spot removal from the Trifecta DRS, Bob and Goyf. Also making your opponent play at sorcery speed and allowing only yourself to have tricks unless they want me to have huge free dudes is pretty great. Helps immensely against aggro providing 2 blocks and up to 2 trades or even a huge buffer with souls. My list has 17 lands to support turn 2 Voice, 20 for turn 3, also you DO NOT need to slam voice turn 2 just like you don't need to slam any 0/1 or 1/2 goyfs when you can clearly see your opponent is playing red or could be. Path is essentially the only practical way to cheat voice of value and even then you will get a land off it, playing Twilight Mire makes Lily still very playable turn 3 without DRS to mana fix and be able to cast Voice. Initially I hated the idea of Voice and couldn't justify obtaining them at their high high price, but after setting aside that bias I tried them in the list and have never been disappointed by them, are they better than Goyf? Are they worse? Not really, they're different and provide great value to the core and help drain your opponent of resources. My main issue with Voice was the black-centric manabase, but honestly have you seen Ajani-Jund? I think we can handle intense color requirements in 3 colors. Voice is great value just like Goyf whether he comes down turn 2 or turn 7. At the very least worth extensive playtesting which I will be doing.
As for the Sideboard:
Ooze isn't out yet, but he will be replacing 3 slots in my current sideboard and I may move 1 into the main, but currently unsure.
Nice list! I really like reading up why decisions have been made, and your reasoning is quite sound. Regarding Elspeth; I love this card, it plays out the grind plan and can help us switch to aggro if needed too. Fitting in a couple is a good idea, but it comes at the cost of disruption. Regarding VoR; Again, I love this card and honestly think its the closest thing to a mistake since Batterskull with Stoneforge in the format. It has really shined in GW Hatebears, and also in Junk Pod. I look forwards to hearing how it performs for you here. For me, KotR has been performing so well that I wouldn't consider cutting her. She is the advantage/ late game engine that I feel this list needs. Personally, I find IoK invaluable in so many matchups that I wouldn't considering running less than 3. I also really like holding Maelstrom Pulse in hand in case something nasty hits the table. I feel like sideboard Thrun is necessary also. I currently run two, and wouldn't mind squeezing one into the main.
KOTR, she is fine now, but when Scavenging Ooze releases you must realize the card is a 2/2 in a lot of matches, I find Gavony Township to be outclassed by Vault of the archangel and the deck doesn't really need tectonic edges to beat manlands or Tron, if you pack stony silence and aven mindcensor in the sideboard Tron is much more manageable, I prefer Batterskull over Thrun because I already have 4 Voice vs Blue decks. Inquisition is severely inferior to thoughtseize (If you can afford the life loss, 2 Vaults really help me out in that aspect) especially in the current meta game (Perhaps I'm biased coming from Legacy where Inquisition is a 5th thoughtseize often even outclassed by duress in legacy), most of the cards we want to make them discard are big things that are difficult for our deck to handle, verdict, vengeant, wurmcoil, splinter Twin, Birthing Pod, etc. Maelstrom Pulse is cool and all, but I see no space for it, 4 Path is preferred, there are several degenerate creatures that need to be exiled or 2 for 1'd.
Lets compare Voice of Resurgence and KOTR, vs an aggressive type deck Voice comes down early and can block twice or take two bullets for the team, KOTR can potentially, but slowly get bigger and fetch up utility lands like vault to change up the game, however in the current meta game, most times Knight will not be able to dodge bolt and the extra colorless lands can hurt the mana base, when ooze comes out there will be a lot of oozes in aggressive decks that play a decent amount of green.
Versus Tempo, Voice outright wins as tempo is forced to waste removal or play at sorcery speed.
Versus Control, Voice is generally more effective at exhausting their resources as the util lands from Knight will generally be more cute than useful.
Versus Combo, Voice is a cheaper threat that gives value when they make sneaky plays at the end of your turn also why you want 4 path to interrupt creature combos. Knight is a overcosted 2/2 or a slow threat that sits there building up while the opponent races to combo and Knight will ultimately be a bad Doran as the util lands are irrelevant unless the combo player is completely in topdeck mode.
To each their own, but I really don't like your sideboard. If siding anything I would sideboard Maelstrom Pulses over abrup decays as decay should be 2-3 main it is a narrow but amazing card, unlike pulse in sb. 4th Path should be main there's no real reason not to, mana denial is weak if not absent in modern and the land generally is not backbreaking like it is in legacy. The stony Silence and Thrun are fine. I would replace surgical with Ooze when it releases. I'm not completely against siding lands but the ghost quarters seem both overkill and lackluster. Play Fulminator Mage instead if you want. Timely Reinforcements is completely outclassed by batterskull, if you're siding in stuff b/c you're afraid of dying to burn/aggro etc you are siding out your Bobs, in fact you will side out Bob quite often despite how amazing he is, if the matchup is grindy or they are hyper aggressive you do not want Bobs killing you, also be careful not to overextend with 2 Bob in those matches. Sword of War and Peace has a nice protection combo but is outclassed by fire and ice and has ****ty synergy with Lily. If your meta is combo heavy 3-4 thoughtseize + 2-3 Inquisition is recommended, but I've found my meta to be handled well by my sideboard as Aven Mincensor and Linvala are huge in otherwise troublesome matchups.
Thanks for commenting on my list, if you want to discuss deck ideas and stuff with this deck hit me up on Skype (Its Free if you don't have it) my username is xhavoc_reaperx and I will be playing some form of Junk for a while, just started playing at a decently competitive modern weekly tournament at store not too far away from campus and went 4-0 this past week. Message me if you want to discuss this deck/archetype but don't want to Skype.
Thanks for the reply. On Voice vs KoTR, I haven't tested with Voice and for sure, it could just be an outright upgrade. All I know is that Knight doesn't perform that badly ATM (pre-ooze) and VoR has only impressed me in other lists. I'll definitely playtest them in place of KoTR.
Gavony is weaker than Vault. I ran the split because Gavony can be aggresive and alongside souls and Reinforcemets can add some serious power to the board. As far as Reinforcements goes, they were in the SB because my mate borrowed Kitchen Finks (see Township) for GP Oakland or something. They do seem outclassed by Batterskull though. What are your thoughts on Baneslayer? Too slow at 5 mana? It could be a nice bullet vs all these Thundermaw Hellkites I keep seeing!
On sideboard, I agree with the swap of Path and Pulse. Also agree that Mincensor deserves at least two slots. I was really hoping that they'd reprint it in MM. I see so much Tron at my local, that's why I've got GQ and Extractions. Just hate losing to that deck. Extraction also catches a lot of decks off guard. It's not necessarily a hoser, but UWR seems to hate it too.
Speaking of which UWR is why I play SoWP. It does have anti-synergy with Lilliana, but if I'm able to be ticking her up then the game is looking good anyway. Definitely not a staple sideboard card though I suppose. Another idea for anti blue decks is Aether Vial. With Goyf, Bob and Voice in the list it could be value. Just a fringe idea that randomly popped into mind.
The only point where I still disagree somewhat is IoK. Card is good in modern. We don't have Force of Will haha. Thoughtseize is still obviously good too, but most seem to opt for the 3-2 split.
I'm overseas ATM and typing this all on my phone. Will be hard to jump on Skype for a little while. I'll be perusing the forums though!
I don't think Voice is a definite include, as I said it merely deserves a lot of testing. As for Tron in your meta, a combo of Stony Silence, Aven Mindcensor and Fulminator Mage should be good as well as being particularly useful in other matchups, Sword of Fire and Ice may not protect your dude from Path, but protects from Bolts and Cryptic while throwing around 2 damage and drawing you an extra card is very relevant also prevents surprise chumps from snapcaster mage. If you play Voice I recommend the 4th Stirring Wildwood and 3 Twilight Mires and cut shocks to 3 and basics to 3, you shouldn't need to fetch past 6 lands between basics and shocks and also I have Urborg that lets me stop fetching if I don't want to to save life.
In terms of the 3/2 split between thoughtseize and inquisition, I'm pretty sure the concept is that you want to see thoughtseize about once a game but not particularly twice but still want to see a discard spell every game. For my list the life loss doesn't concern me as much because my opponent will be using a lot of burn on my creatures and I have 2 vault to stabilize, also I tend to switch up playstyles depending on my matchup, a lot of times you can pitch extra thoughtseize to Liliana and it doesn't end up making much of a difference. In a lot of matchups there is often no reason to bolt yourself twice with fetching into a shockland. If I see trouble with combo I will up my discard spells, but between 4 thoughtseize and 4 Liliana I think I should be fine. What I have noticed is that in many games I have gone more or less untouched and very much in the safe zone for life. Generally if you can trade Bob in a grindy matchup, go for it, also never be afraid to kill your own Bob if you need to, if the flip could kill you and there's nothing relevant to kill instead then kill him and side him out. Though if you get Vault online you can play just fine with 3-4 Bobs out, lol.
For my list, I would rather have a late game Elspeth or any time Voice than a 5th discard spell if it is not hurting me vs combo or control. As I have said, Voice seems to be very good vs control and combo. Its funny how in legacy you generally always play 4 thoughtseize in 1-3 colors black with no blue. In legacy Jund, you play 4 Liliana, 4 thoughtseize and 4 hymn to tourach, but we don't have hymn and modern is more creature based anyways.
Thanks for the response, add me on Skype for now if you get a chance (xhavoc_reaperx).
I was only playing 3 liliana's for the longest time (even back when I played Jund) since I only owned 3. Going up to 4 has been really great. This will help a lot against bant hexproof, and other similar decks.
As for finks in the side, timely reinforcements works well, too, but sometimes the meta just blanks your sideboard cards.
I think you should run a ghost quarter. Tec edge is nice for long, grindy games against controlly decks, but sometimes all you need to do is destroy a single land that's stopping your game plan, and ghost quarter is better at that. It goes a lot better with life from the loam as well, since you can reuse it no matter how many lands they have, and most decks don't run more than a couple of basics. It can quickly become a strip mine, which is really great against control decks (or any deck, for that matter).
Regarding Obstinate Baloth; I personally would favour Kitchen Finks vs. Aggro. Just because it was the most useless on the day doesn't mean it should be dropped. A couple weeks from now someone will come along with RDW and clean up when people are unprepared. Baloth vs the mirror is cool, I'm a fan of free cards whilst ur opponent discards to their own Liliana. Do you feel that the life gain is relevant in the mirror? I feel as though the grindy nature of the mirror makes Wilt-Lief Liege more favourable. Pumping Knights, enabling Goyf to win 'Goyf Wars' and also pumping Soul tokens. For the mirror I would prefer them both over Loxodon Smiter as he is primed as a decay target, but Smiter has splash sideboard hate vs counters too. I also don't mind Surgical Extraction here either. Being the only one with Liliana, Goyf, Bob or Souls left in their list is pretty nice. But I'm yet to convince people thoroughly on that one. Anyway just my .02 on a few SB slots.
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Can anyone explain to me why Doran is worse than KotR in a deck that uses deathrite as a mana dork? I still like Doran.
However, Doran does allow for some humorous interactions - my favorite being the nullification of cranial plating
Have you been splitting the count of goyfs and oozes?
This was before they were going to print scavenging ooze, so obviously some things have changed a bit. In my opinion, scavenging ooze will not push out either tarmogoyf or KotR. Both cards are flat out better than scavenging ooze in most cases. What made scavenging ooze so big in legacy was the ability to green sun for it to hate out the popular deck at the time, which was griselbrand reanimator. Essentially, scavenging ooze was a silver bullet in that deck. I don't know how it reached $30 dollars as a singleton in a now-dead legacy deck, but it's playability in legacy outside maverick is very little.
But we're not discussing legacy. Things are different in modern, obviously. Scavenging ooze will have a different impact on the format. First of all, it will be the most popular budget tarmogoyf replacement, which is fair enough, considering it's a really great 2-drop in green. Whether or not it will replace tarmogoyf depends on the deck. For this deck, it probably won't. Tarmogoyf is too versatile and efficient at what it does to be replaced: it stops aggro because it's a massive blocker, and it puts pressure on combo and control as a massive attacker. Scavenging ooze comes into play, and cannot do either unless you dump mana into it. For this deck, it may take a place beside tarmogoyf, but, like I said, it will probably not replace it. However, it is still a great choice, and if you don't play it in your main board, it's a good consideration for your sideboard.
It could, however, possibly replace some of the other creatures such as KotR, smiter, doran, etc. Each of those creature has different applications and uses for this deck. Scavenging ooze could be one of your options in your deck.
I, personally, am going to stick with KotR, goyf, DRS, and bob as my creatures. I may replace one or both of my finks with the ooze, or I may just sideboard a copy or two. I don't know yet for sure, but it will not make a huge change in my list when it's released.
As for doran; doran is still good, but his applications are different. He plays a much more aggro role in most cases.
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I think what a lot of people are thinking is that ooze hates goyf and KotR out a lot...well, it doesn't. It can help, but in a real game against any B/G/x midrange deck, there's going to be tons of cards in the graveyard unless all you did was spend mana to eat cards out of the graveyard, which any player would be happy with, considering you didn't use that mana to do other more important things. Ooze is good, and he helps, but don't think that your ooze is going to stop KotR or a tarmogoyf single-handedly. For most decks, it's still easier to just play rest in peace or relic of progenitus.
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Good point. I'd imagine having an ooze early in the game really helps stop goyf and KotR, assuming it doesn't get removed. Late game, it will take a lot of catching up to do to race a goyf or KotR, but I suppose if you have the mana you can catch up pretty quick. Ooze I think will be a really good addition to pod and G/W hatebears.
We don't typically play red for those particular lands, those are more for the zoo variants, but they are indeed good plays.
The lands you play all depend on your deck. People think without wasteland and maze of ith, KotR doesn't have the lands it needs to be successful, but I disagree. There's plenty of decent lands in modern to play with if you have KotR.
Modern Junk Primer
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Pssst...I think play.woogerworks.com has a working Cockatrice download. Getting cards.xml in the right place in your computer can be tricky, though.
In terms of the manabase, the twilight mire makes incoming ooze a much more useful sideboard card as well as tying up loose ends in the mana base as double black for Lily is very important. Vault of the Archangel is an amazing utility land that can reverse game states and gives a ton of value to my tokens. 4 Stirring Wildwood... Why not?
4 Thoughtseize, I believe if your list has decent life gain potential, then no reason to hold back on thoughtseize, its the best at what it does despite the additional price to pay, though if you seize someone and they have no legal target at least you won't lose 2 life, same if it lures out a counterspell. I much prefer seize because you often want to hit outside of abrupt decay's range such as birthing pod, wurmcoil engine, splinter twin, thrun, wraths, etc.
So for the Voice of Resurgence, the important point to consider is not just are they worth it? Its to also consider what would be better to play instead of them? Nothing outright. Lets consider their strengths, the core of the deck is very solid and they synergize extremely well with the play style of the deck and draw away spot removal from the Trifecta DRS, Bob and Goyf. Also making your opponent play at sorcery speed and allowing only yourself to have tricks unless they want me to have huge free dudes is pretty great. Helps immensely against aggro providing 2 blocks and up to 2 trades or even a huge buffer with souls. My list has 17 lands to support turn 2 Voice, 20 for turn 3, also you DO NOT need to slam voice turn 2 just like you don't need to slam any 0/1 or 1/2 goyfs when you can clearly see your opponent is playing red or could be. Path is essentially the only practical way to cheat voice of value and even then you will get a land off it, playing Twilight Mire makes Lily still very playable turn 3 without DRS to mana fix and be able to cast Voice. Initially I hated the idea of Voice and couldn't justify obtaining them at their high high price, but after setting aside that bias I tried them in the list and have never been disappointed by them, are they better than Goyf? Are they worse? Not really, they're different and provide great value to the core and help drain your opponent of resources. My main issue with Voice was the black-centric manabase, but honestly have you seen Ajani-Jund? I think we can handle intense color requirements in 3 colors. Voice is great value just like Goyf whether he comes down turn 2 or turn 7. At the very least worth extensive playtesting which I will be doing.
As for the Sideboard:
Ooze isn't out yet, but he will be replacing 3 slots in my current sideboard and I may move 1 into the main, but currently unsure.
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Voice of Resurgence
4x Liliana of the Veil
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4x Path to Exile
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Thoughtseize
4x Lingering Souls
1x Forest
1x Godless Shrine
4x Marsh Flats
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
4x Stirring Wildwood
1x Swamp
1x Temple Garden
3x Twilight Mire
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Vault of the Archangel
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Stony Silence
3x Scavenging Ooze
3x Aven Mindcensor
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
2x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
2x Batterskull
Any comments or feedback on my build are appreciated, thanks
Modern - The Rock
My List Constantly Updated
My list for reference:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Lingering Souls
4 Lilliana of the Veil
4 Marsh Flats
2 Godless Shrine
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Forest
3 Stirring Wildwood
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Gavony Township
1 Vault of the Archangel
3 Timely Reinforcements
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Stoney Silence
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Path to Exile
Pretty stock-standard, but comments and suggestions would be appreciated also!
Lets compare Voice of Resurgence and KOTR, vs an aggressive type deck Voice comes down early and can block twice or take two bullets for the team, KOTR can potentially, but slowly get bigger and fetch up utility lands like vault to change up the game, however in the current meta game, most times Knight will not be able to dodge bolt and the extra colorless lands can hurt the mana base, when ooze comes out there will be a lot of oozes in aggressive decks that play a decent amount of green.
Versus Tempo, Voice outright wins as tempo is forced to waste removal or play at sorcery speed.
Versus Control, Voice is generally more effective at exhausting their resources as the util lands from Knight will generally be more cute than useful.
Versus Combo, Voice is a cheaper threat that gives value when they make sneaky plays at the end of your turn also why you want 4 path to interrupt creature combos. Knight is a overcosted 2/2 or a slow threat that sits there building up while the opponent races to combo and Knight will ultimately be a bad Doran as the util lands are irrelevant unless the combo player is completely in topdeck mode.
To each their own, but I really don't like your sideboard. If siding anything I would sideboard Maelstrom Pulses over abrup decays as decay should be 2-3 main it is a narrow but amazing card, unlike pulse in sb. 4th Path should be main there's no real reason not to, mana denial is weak if not absent in modern and the land generally is not backbreaking like it is in legacy. The stony Silence and Thrun are fine. I would replace surgical with Ooze when it releases. I'm not completely against siding lands but the ghost quarters seem both overkill and lackluster. Play Fulminator Mage instead if you want. Timely Reinforcements is completely outclassed by batterskull, if you're siding in stuff b/c you're afraid of dying to burn/aggro etc you are siding out your Bobs, in fact you will side out Bob quite often despite how amazing he is, if the matchup is grindy or they are hyper aggressive you do not want Bobs killing you, also be careful not to overextend with 2 Bob in those matches. Sword of War and Peace has a nice protection combo but is outclassed by fire and ice and has ****ty synergy with Lily. If your meta is combo heavy 3-4 thoughtseize + 2-3 Inquisition is recommended, but I've found my meta to be handled well by my sideboard as Aven Mincensor and Linvala are huge in otherwise troublesome matchups.
Thanks for commenting on my list, if you want to discuss deck ideas and stuff with this deck hit me up on Skype (Its Free if you don't have it) my username is xhavoc_reaperx and I will be playing some form of Junk for a while, just started playing at a decently competitive modern weekly tournament at store not too far away from campus and went 4-0 this past week. Message me if you want to discuss this deck/archetype but don't want to Skype.
Modern - The Rock
My List Constantly Updated
Gavony is weaker than Vault. I ran the split because Gavony can be aggresive and alongside souls and Reinforcemets can add some serious power to the board. As far as Reinforcements goes, they were in the SB because my mate borrowed Kitchen Finks (see Township) for GP Oakland or something. They do seem outclassed by Batterskull though. What are your thoughts on Baneslayer? Too slow at 5 mana? It could be a nice bullet vs all these Thundermaw Hellkites I keep seeing!
On sideboard, I agree with the swap of Path and Pulse. Also agree that Mincensor deserves at least two slots. I was really hoping that they'd reprint it in MM. I see so much Tron at my local, that's why I've got GQ and Extractions. Just hate losing to that deck. Extraction also catches a lot of decks off guard. It's not necessarily a hoser, but UWR seems to hate it too.
Speaking of which UWR is why I play SoWP. It does have anti-synergy with Lilliana, but if I'm able to be ticking her up then the game is looking good anyway. Definitely not a staple sideboard card though I suppose. Another idea for anti blue decks is Aether Vial. With Goyf, Bob and Voice in the list it could be value. Just a fringe idea that randomly popped into mind.
The only point where I still disagree somewhat is IoK. Card is good in modern. We don't have Force of Will haha. Thoughtseize is still obviously good too, but most seem to opt for the 3-2 split.
I'm overseas ATM and typing this all on my phone. Will be hard to jump on Skype for a little while. I'll be perusing the forums though!
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Lingering Souls
4 Lilliana of the Veil
4 Marsh Flats
2 Godless Shrine
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Forest
3 Stirring Wildwood
2 Tectonic Edge
2 Vault of the Archangel
3 Aven Mindcensor
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Stoney Silence
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Batterskull
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Still not sure how to make room for Elspeth though. I'll try testing something similar to this when I get back though.
Adding:
The last two are purely speculative/sideboard. I think Ooze, Voice, and Sovereign are probably their own deck.
In terms of the 3/2 split between thoughtseize and inquisition, I'm pretty sure the concept is that you want to see thoughtseize about once a game but not particularly twice but still want to see a discard spell every game. For my list the life loss doesn't concern me as much because my opponent will be using a lot of burn on my creatures and I have 2 vault to stabilize, also I tend to switch up playstyles depending on my matchup, a lot of times you can pitch extra thoughtseize to Liliana and it doesn't end up making much of a difference. In a lot of matchups there is often no reason to bolt yourself twice with fetching into a shockland. If I see trouble with combo I will up my discard spells, but between 4 thoughtseize and 4 Liliana I think I should be fine. What I have noticed is that in many games I have gone more or less untouched and very much in the safe zone for life. Generally if you can trade Bob in a grindy matchup, go for it, also never be afraid to kill your own Bob if you need to, if the flip could kill you and there's nothing relevant to kill instead then kill him and side him out. Though if you get Vault online you can play just fine with 3-4 Bobs out, lol.
For my list, I would rather have a late game Elspeth or any time Voice than a 5th discard spell if it is not hurting me vs combo or control. As I have said, Voice seems to be very good vs control and combo. Its funny how in legacy you generally always play 4 thoughtseize in 1-3 colors black with no blue. In legacy Jund, you play 4 Liliana, 4 thoughtseize and 4 hymn to tourach, but we don't have hymn and modern is more creature based anyways.
Thanks for the response, add me on Skype for now if you get a chance (xhavoc_reaperx).
Modern - The Rock
My List Constantly Updated
As for finks in the side, timely reinforcements works well, too, but sometimes the meta just blanks your sideboard cards.
I think you should run a ghost quarter. Tec edge is nice for long, grindy games against controlly decks, but sometimes all you need to do is destroy a single land that's stopping your game plan, and ghost quarter is better at that. It goes a lot better with life from the loam as well, since you can reuse it no matter how many lands they have, and most decks don't run more than a couple of basics. It can quickly become a strip mine, which is really great against control decks (or any deck, for that matter).
Modern Junk Primer
Legacy ANT Primer
L1 Judge
Modern Junk Primer
Legacy ANT Primer
L1 Judge