Eye is awful, especially if we're getting more card draw. I'd max out hussar's before I started playing eyes. Sky spawner starts ramping you to titan and puts more power on the field than eye. Clique is double blue which is tough. Resto is good as a one of or two of for sure, 3 might be too many. Thalia seems awkward. Making our wraths costs 1 more seems awful in a lot of matchups, as does pumping up path and dsphere costs.
Eye's not awful, it really helps trigger Emeria, The Sky Ruin which is the point. Especially when you bounce it you can make sure you don't fall short of the Plains you need or even the six mana you need for Sun Titan which you can do with Sky Spawner but Sky Spawner doesn't help with Emeria, The Sky Ruin.
If you looked at my list, there are no Wraths either. I wasn't proposing Thalia for any list, I was proposing her for THAT list.
If you want to play Thopter Foundry/Sword of the Meek, might rebuild the sideboard to not include Stony Silence no ?
I don't see the point for Foundry/Sword of the Meek as it improves a matchup that is already favorable (Creatures based deck) and weakens the deck more to sideboard hate (Stony Silence)
For Ancestral Visions, I see the appeal, but late game the card is horrible and I would gladly prefer any other card than Ancestral Vision after turn 1.
If you go the AV route, might consider switching to UW Control because I don't think UW Titan Emeria is an house for this card.
But I might be totally wrong. When you'll test with those changes, post your feedbacks. Thanks!
If you want to play Thopter Foundry/Sword of the Meek, might rebuild the sideboard to not include Stony Silence no ?
I don't see the point for Foundry/Sword of the Meek as it improves a matchup that is already favorable (Creatures based deck) and weakens the deck more to sideboard hate (Stony Silence)
For Ancestral Visions, I see the appeal, but late game the card is horrible and I would gladly prefer any other card than Ancestral Vision after turn 1.
If you go the AV route, might consider switching to UW Control because I don't think UW Titan Emeria is an house for this card.
But I might be totally wrong. When you'll test with those changes, post your feedbacks. Thanks!
Yea it was my current sideboard, i removed it so it would make more sense. I see what you are saying about improving upon an already good matchup, but it simply provides another win condition. Stony Silence is avoidable with recuring...it only shuts down Thopter Foundry, you still get a free 2/3 with Pilgrims Eye.
I dunno, will mess around with it, but I dont see any drawbacks per say..I realize its not the best thing ever.
It will be interesting, and probably worse for us, but not disastrously so. Eldrazi and Tron took a hit. Blue control got stronger. While none of these are particularly bad for us, they may increase the presence of Burn, Merfolk, and other decks that have just a slight advantage over us.
How well do you guys see this deck fit into the new meta?
I'm pretty interested because AV is a card that fits grindy gameplay so well. If you add that kind of draw engine in with all the cantrip creatures you're seeing a lot of your deck so it's easy to play a land every turn, get the Titans out and go to town. I think it could be a legitimately good deck. Especially with Twin gone, that was the big one.
I'm very new to this deck and the unbanning of Ancestral Visions brought me here. I think AV could be a big deal here. Obviously its early, but I'd imagine it will be an auto 4 of (especially when there wasn't a turn 1 play before.) What do you all think is appropriate to cut from the list to make room?
Ancestral Vision might be good, but it depends what version of the deck you're playing. If you are using Flickerwisp I would argue its not worth using AV..I feel like Court Hussar is better with flickering and recursion. You could use both, but you would have to drop something fairly important. Maybe you could add 2 in flex spots, but I doubt a playset would provide any win% over what we already have. It is an overly expensive card that doesn't really make anything we are doing better imo.
Where I live they allow 10 proxies for modern, so I intend to test with visions this Thursday. I'm cutting some underperformers for visions and I'm also going to test skyspawners to get me where I want to be faster as well as provide another 3 power for 3 threat in the matchups where I need to be the faster deck (there's a surprising amount of games where I find myself needing to be the aggressive one).
Where I live they allow 10 proxies for modern, so I intend to test with visions this Thursday. I'm cutting some underperformers for visions and I'm also going to test skyspawners to get me where I want to be faster as well as provide another 3 power for 3 threat in the matchups where I need to be the faster deck (there's a surprising amount of games where I find myself needing to be the aggressive one).
Please keep us posted with the results:D Have fun!
Lost game 1 after he started getting my lands every turn following it up with Stormbreath Dragon and Thrun, without having mana for Supreme Verdict.
Game 2 I boarded out the prisons and the Titan as I did not ever see myself hitting 6 mana and just managed to grind it out countering/removing his threats and got lucky hitting double Path to slow down the Batterskull he pulled out. Nonetheless he conceded without me having lethal on board, which was lucky, as his Batterskull would have probably gotten there soon.
Game 3 I got a early Vendilion, tucked his Thrun and killed both Inferno Titan and Stormbreath with a vital Supreme verdict, I hid behind counter magic and beat him down with snapcaster in the end.
Round 2: Affinity L 0-2
Game 1 was a crushing defeat, where he just was way too fast for me
Game 2 I felt pretty good, but after a misplay of clicking “ok” once too often on MTGO I gave the game completely out of hand, however it might have been difficult anyways since I had no real long term answer to his cranials.
Round 3: RUG Scapeshift W 2-1
Game 1 I draw a lot of our dead cards and my single negate got crypticed sealing the deal with 36 damage to the face off of Valakut.
Game 2 I stock up on all the countermagic and take out most of my dead cards except 3 Path, since my other cards are even worse. He never draws Scapeshift and Flickerwisp + Sun Titan quickly finish him off.
Game 3 is very close. I put a lot of early pressure with Missionary and 2 Flickerwisp and he seems to be on a low counter draw and has to then go for it before he can set up enough defenses and double negate closes it out very nicely.
Round 4: Merfolk W 2-1
Game 1 I got crushed. Failing to find my supreme verdict spelled out a very quick defeat.
Game 2, due to a random dc on my side I was not able to sideboard at all and drew 2 negates which really sucked, but thanks to double Ghostly Prison on t3 and t4 I was able to slow things down a lot until I finally found Supreme Verdicts and get Emeria online.
Game 3 he ran out of time very quickly, but I was in a pretty good spot regardless after drawing verdict and snapcaster to reverdict I dropped a Sun Titan at which point his timer went to 0:00
Round 5: Naya Burn W 2-1
Game 1 I get down to 4 until I finally stabilize leaving him topdecking with 2 PtE and a Negate, which holds him down while flickerwisp brings the beatdown.
Game 2 I stumble one turn on mana and am on the backfoot a tiny bit too long to ever stabilize, and finally get burned out.
Game 3 I demolish him completly with 2 Lone Missionaries, a Flickerwisp and 2 Wall of Omens.
Overall a very nice 4-1 result and seeing how the deck is still slightly budgeted I feel like it will just get better. Other notes:
I lost ⅘ G1, not sure if this was unlucky or has any statistical merit
Spreading Seas seems like a wasted slot
Not sure on the Ghostlies in the Main, probably at least going -1 Prison +1 Verdict
Flickerwisp did so much work winning me a lot of games with value AND as a threat
I really liked the Condemn from the sideboard as 5th Path for the more creature heavy Matchups
Probably going to queue up for another League soon, I will try and report after as well.
So I haven't played this deck much (pretty much only at casual weeknights at my LGS) but I've been trying to find a good shell for thopters that isn't UB Tezz. Here's what I've come up with. I used janozimek's list as a start:
No sideboard yet. I think I'd want to find room for a main deck answer to opposing thopter decks. Something like Jace, AoT but that doesn't give a lot of synergy with the rest of the deck. Obviously a 3CMC maindeckable card would be best. No Sideboard yet, as I'm not super familiar with the deck as it is, I don't know how to properly sideboard. Cards that I was thinking about:
And how does this deck function with graveyard hate? Do you just have to play around it/hold answers to it early? I think with thopters, and probably the resurgance of RIP and more stony silence in sideboards, it's probably not a bad idea to find room for another spell snare.
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Modern: UWR Breach, UWB Esper control
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
I wasn't playing when Thopter/Sword was legal so I don't have any experience with it, but to me it looks like it doesn't mesh that well with the deck.
Thopter/Sword is a self contained value engine + wincon but it's shut down by graveyard hate, I don't see why you would want to add another value engine that is soft to graveyard hate (and Thopther/Sword dilutes the creature pool for Emeria/Flickerwisp). That's a lot of tempo hits too (T1 Emeria, T2 Foundry will leave you pretty vulnerable against anything remotely aggressive). IMO, the shells with planeswalkers or manlands as alternative wincons are better positioned to exploit Thopter/Sword (just like we can fight through hate with our big bodies and flyers).
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Are Jund and Abzan really decent matchups? I have said it a few times in this thread, but I have been losing all my matches against them lately. I've had a bit of bad luck in top deck wars, but I find that most games against them are either close 50/50 grind fests or my answers don't lineup with their threats and they overrun me.
Spreading Seas seems like a wasted slot
Not sure on the Ghostlies in the Main, probably at least going -1 Prison +1 Verdict
I really liked the Condemn from the sideboard as 5th Path for the more creature heavy Matchups
I have cut Spreading Seas from my 75 and transferred Prison to the sideboard now that I started to encounter more combo decks.
Condemn on creaturelands is pretty sweet (it's a reverse Path!).
I agree on the Thopter-Sword assessment. It's not winning things we weren't already winning, and its weaknesses only magnify rather than compensating for our own.
I still like Spreading Seas in the SB for Tron.
As for Jund and Azban, I'm surprised you're having issues. True, they play better threats, but those threats are rarely fast enough to kill us before we outrange them on the strength of Sun Titans. Are you dying before or after Sun Titan lands on turn 6?
Spreading Seas is cool. I definitely like that card a lot against Tron in decks not running Red.
The biggest meta-deck I feel is an issue that needs to be address is what to do about Abzan Company. That deck randomly gets unlimited life turn 3 which you can't stop exactly, but outside of that they get it consistently enough they'll likely have it before the engine is assembled. I feel generally midrangey and aggro decks are pretty decent matchups but the fact that plays as a fairly reliable midrange deck that can pull off a win makes it hard. I have similar issues with Kiki-Chord as that deck is reliable and very consistently combos.
As for Jund and Azban, I'm surprised you're having issues. True, they play better threats, but those threats are rarely fast enough to kill us before we outrange them on the strength of Sun Titans. Are you dying before or after Sun Titan lands on turn 6?
Despite playing Walls and Hussars, Liliana and discard spread my resources pretty thin. If I get to the first Titan, they often have the Terminate or Maelstrom Pulse to deal with it. At that point, their card quality is just higher and their threats very diversified.
Like I said, I used to beat them, but in recent weeks, they've had the upper hand...
The biggest meta-deck I feel is an issue that needs to be address is what to do about Abzan Company. That deck randomly gets unlimited life turn 3 which you can't stop exactly, but outside of that they get it consistently enough they'll likely have it before the engine is assembled. I feel generally midrangey and aggro decks are pretty decent matchups but the fact that plays as a fairly reliable midrange deck that can pull off a win makes it hard. I have similar issues with Kiki-Chord as that deck is reliable and very consistently combos.
Abzan Company is indeed pretty though. They can grind with us and they have a potentially instant speed combo (for life or damage) and they're better at finding their pieces than we are at finding answers. In my last matches, I have boarded in Surgical Extraction against them to get their combo pieces (Finks ideally) and I've had positive results. Once they only have Redcap + their value guys, we can overpower them.
Kiki-Chord I have found to be a rather good matchup. Keep a Path up for Kiki and play the chicken game! They can generate some value with their guys but we have the tools to handle their beatdown plan IMO.
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Eye's not awful, it really helps trigger Emeria, The Sky Ruin which is the point. Especially when you bounce it you can make sure you don't fall short of the Plains you need or even the six mana you need for Sun Titan which you can do with Sky Spawner but Sky Spawner doesn't help with Emeria, The Sky Ruin.
If you looked at my list, there are no Wraths either. I wasn't proposing Thalia for any list, I was proposing her for THAT list.
I don't see the point for Foundry/Sword of the Meek as it improves a matchup that is already favorable (Creatures based deck) and weakens the deck more to sideboard hate (Stony Silence)
For Ancestral Visions, I see the appeal, but late game the card is horrible and I would gladly prefer any other card than Ancestral Vision after turn 1.
If you go the AV route, might consider switching to UW Control because I don't think UW Titan Emeria is an house for this card.
But I might be totally wrong. When you'll test with those changes, post your feedbacks. Thanks!
Yea it was my current sideboard, i removed it so it would make more sense. I see what you are saying about improving upon an already good matchup, but it simply provides another win condition. Stony Silence is avoidable with recuring...it only shuts down Thopter Foundry, you still get a free 2/3 with Pilgrims Eye.
I dunno, will mess around with it, but I dont see any drawbacks per say..I realize its not the best thing ever.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
I'm pretty interested because AV is a card that fits grindy gameplay so well. If you add that kind of draw engine in with all the cantrip creatures you're seeing a lot of your deck so it's easy to play a land every turn, get the Titans out and go to town. I think it could be a legitimately good deck. Especially with Twin gone, that was the big one.
Please keep us posted with the results:D Have fun!
Thanks very much, I was going to test it a bit this weekend, but if you do too that's probably better!
I'm currently watching the changes that the banning/unbanning made. I might be able to replace spreading seas with something better.
Round 1: GR Ramp/Land Destruction W 2-1
Lost game 1 after he started getting my lands every turn following it up with Stormbreath Dragon and Thrun, without having mana for Supreme Verdict.
Game 2 I boarded out the prisons and the Titan as I did not ever see myself hitting 6 mana and just managed to grind it out countering/removing his threats and got lucky hitting double Path to slow down the Batterskull he pulled out. Nonetheless he conceded without me having lethal on board, which was lucky, as his Batterskull would have probably gotten there soon.
Game 3 I got a early Vendilion, tucked his Thrun and killed both Inferno Titan and Stormbreath with a vital Supreme verdict, I hid behind counter magic and beat him down with snapcaster in the end.
Round 2: Affinity L 0-2
Game 1 was a crushing defeat, where he just was way too fast for me
Game 2 I felt pretty good, but after a misplay of clicking “ok” once too often on MTGO I gave the game completely out of hand, however it might have been difficult anyways since I had no real long term answer to his cranials.
Round 3: RUG Scapeshift W 2-1
Game 1 I draw a lot of our dead cards and my single negate got crypticed sealing the deal with 36 damage to the face off of Valakut.
Game 2 I stock up on all the countermagic and take out most of my dead cards except 3 Path, since my other cards are even worse. He never draws Scapeshift and Flickerwisp + Sun Titan quickly finish him off.
Game 3 is very close. I put a lot of early pressure with Missionary and 2 Flickerwisp and he seems to be on a low counter draw and has to then go for it before he can set up enough defenses and double negate closes it out very nicely.
Round 4: Merfolk W 2-1
Game 1 I got crushed. Failing to find my supreme verdict spelled out a very quick defeat.
Game 2, due to a random dc on my side I was not able to sideboard at all and drew 2 negates which really sucked, but thanks to double Ghostly Prison on t3 and t4 I was able to slow things down a lot until I finally found Supreme Verdicts and get Emeria online.
Game 3 he ran out of time very quickly, but I was in a pretty good spot regardless after drawing verdict and snapcaster to reverdict I dropped a Sun Titan at which point his timer went to 0:00
Round 5: Naya Burn W 2-1
Game 1 I get down to 4 until I finally stabilize leaving him topdecking with 2 PtE and a Negate, which holds him down while flickerwisp brings the beatdown.
Game 2 I stumble one turn on mana and am on the backfoot a tiny bit too long to ever stabilize, and finally get burned out.
Game 3 I demolish him completly with 2 Lone Missionaries, a Flickerwisp and 2 Wall of Omens.
Overall a very nice 4-1 result and seeing how the deck is still slightly budgeted I feel like it will just get better. Other notes:
I lost ⅘ G1, not sure if this was unlucky or has any statistical merit
Spreading Seas seems like a wasted slot
Not sure on the Ghostlies in the Main, probably at least going -1 Prison +1 Verdict
Flickerwisp did so much work winning me a lot of games with value AND as a threat
I really liked the Condemn from the sideboard as 5th Path for the more creature heavy Matchups
Probably going to queue up for another League soon, I will try and report after as well.
1 Arid Mesa
3 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
4 Flooded Strand
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
7 Plains
1 Windswept Heath
2 Detention Sphere
2 Mortar Pod
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
1 Aether Spellbomb
Creatures 14
3 Court Hussar
3 Lone Missionary
1 Phantasmal Image
3 Sun Titan
4 Wall of Omens
2 Negate
1 Ojutai's Command
4 Path to Exile
1 Spell Snare
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Thirst for Knowledge
No sideboard yet. I think I'd want to find room for a main deck answer to opposing thopter decks. Something like Jace, AoT but that doesn't give a lot of synergy with the rest of the deck. Obviously a 3CMC maindeckable card would be best. No Sideboard yet, as I'm not super familiar with the deck as it is, I don't know how to properly sideboard. Cards that I was thinking about:
And how does this deck function with graveyard hate? Do you just have to play around it/hold answers to it early? I think with thopters, and probably the resurgance of RIP and more stony silence in sideboards, it's probably not a bad idea to find room for another spell snare.
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
Thopter/Sword is a self contained value engine + wincon but it's shut down by graveyard hate, I don't see why you would want to add another value engine that is soft to graveyard hate (and Thopther/Sword dilutes the creature pool for Emeria/Flickerwisp). That's a lot of tempo hits too (T1 Emeria, T2 Foundry will leave you pretty vulnerable against anything remotely aggressive). IMO, the shells with planeswalkers or manlands as alternative wincons are better positioned to exploit Thopter/Sword (just like we can fight through hate with our big bodies and flyers).
---
Are Jund and Abzan really decent matchups? I have said it a few times in this thread, but I have been losing all my matches against them lately. I've had a bit of bad luck in top deck wars, but I find that most games against them are either close 50/50 grind fests or my answers don't lineup with their threats and they overrun me.
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I have cut Spreading Seas from my 75 and transferred Prison to the sideboard now that I started to encounter more combo decks.
Condemn on creaturelands is pretty sweet (it's a reverse Path!).
I still like Spreading Seas in the SB for Tron.
As for Jund and Azban, I'm surprised you're having issues. True, they play better threats, but those threats are rarely fast enough to kill us before we outrange them on the strength of Sun Titans. Are you dying before or after Sun Titan lands on turn 6?
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
The biggest meta-deck I feel is an issue that needs to be address is what to do about Abzan Company. That deck randomly gets unlimited life turn 3 which you can't stop exactly, but outside of that they get it consistently enough they'll likely have it before the engine is assembled. I feel generally midrangey and aggro decks are pretty decent matchups but the fact that plays as a fairly reliable midrange deck that can pull off a win makes it hard. I have similar issues with Kiki-Chord as that deck is reliable and very consistently combos.
Despite playing Walls and Hussars, Liliana and discard spread my resources pretty thin. If I get to the first Titan, they often have the Terminate or Maelstrom Pulse to deal with it. At that point, their card quality is just higher and their threats very diversified.
Like I said, I used to beat them, but in recent weeks, they've had the upper hand...
Abzan Company is indeed pretty though. They can grind with us and they have a potentially instant speed combo (for life or damage) and they're better at finding their pieces than we are at finding answers. In my last matches, I have boarded in Surgical Extraction against them to get their combo pieces (Finks ideally) and I've had positive results. Once they only have Redcap + their value guys, we can overpower them.
Kiki-Chord I have found to be a rather good matchup. Keep a Path up for Kiki and play the chicken game! They can generate some value with their guys but we have the tools to handle their beatdown plan IMO.