Seems narrow and I'm not sure what we'd cut for it. Maybe if it was Scry2 instead of Scry1 it could have a shot, or instant speed. Seems like Despise would still be better if anyone runs it in their SB.
I think I would personally edge Harsh Scrutiny ahead of Despise. You're only ever going to run either in a very creature heavy meta. That generally means aggressive aggro decks putting dudes on the ground and up in your face fast. Personally, in that scenario, I'd rather have the scry help ward off bad draws that could cause my deck to stumble and allow the aggro deck to gain a lead.
But in my opinion, IoK and Thoughtseize still have the targeted discard needs of 8rack on lockdown. I don't see that changing for awhile.
It's fine. Right now there are enough different and equally viable builds of the deck that you ca use to target most metas. The core carries you through the non-aggressive matchups and for those Affinity/Infect/Burn duels you can pick a flavour of the deck that is best suited to deal with them, depending on what is more prevalent were you play.
If word of mouth is to be believed (although I don't think it necessarily should be) people are even finding success while playing cards such as Smallpox. If you can consistently win games while playing bad cards that, then the deck has to be incredibly well positioned.
How is 8 rack going right now. Been a while since I played it, meta wise
Right now I feel like I have more options available to me than ever before. And that's saying something considering how little design space the 8Rack core leaves us to work with.
How is 8 rack going right now. Been a while since I played it, meta wise
Not so good
There are a lot of aggro decks which is generally not a good matchup
Junk isnt easy
Nahiri Control is tough
Dredge is tough
Other things are ok/good
I honestly don't understand why you guys are so anti smallpox
You don't like slowing games down?
You don't like edicts?
You don't like the value of doing both at the same time?
I mean I don't run it eithor cause I like playing creatures but I don't think its a bad card for 8rack by any means.
Because to fight a lot of small aggro you have to adopt a more aggressive stance via the 8Rack critter pack options. This stance does not work with Smallpox. Smallpox is good in a Bridge main type of list that wants to go really grindy. So you basically answered your own question.
When I ran spox I ran it without the bridge. I don't think its correct to say to play against aggro you have to play agressively. Sure, that's one option or you can also play cheaper removal such as Lightning Bolt/Disfigure and Anger of the Gods/Flaying Tendrils. This is pretty much why I added red originally.
i also like the smallpox version but don't play bridge, don't think that the two cards belong together
i think it has to do more with playstile
to play optimaly with smallpox you have to put yourself on the draw, and don't play cards that don't reduce the card count on the table/hand (bridge its one of them, racks are also but you cant help that)
also play the smallpox turn 3 only if you have multiples of them alongside multiple racks, otherwise play it turn 4 empty handed. Almost never never never play it turn 2, that just kills you
but if you prefer creatures then you have to stay away from smallpox, theres no discusion about that
Thanks for input. I bought some pimp old foil swamps and picked up some extra Lilis, so i don't to switch from junk and so on. I have no reason not to play this deck
I also like flaying tendrils. With all the Jeskai nahiri, is tribute to hunger our version of deflecting Palm.. Per say
When I ran spox I ran it without the bridge. I don't think its correct to say to play against aggro you have to play agressively. Sure, that's one option or you can also play cheaper removal such as Lightning Bolt/Disfigure and Anger of the Gods/Flaying Tendrils. This is pretty much why I added red originally.
So you are depending on 4 removal spells to protect you better than 4 copies of bridge? Nah.
Red splash is fine against affinity, but mono black is where you want to be against generic fast aggro. Without Smallpox.
Smallpox is a card for people who want to grind it out. There's no fast win scenario.
4 removal spells? A lot more than 4 dude. I agree pox is for grinding it out but I would rather remove the creatures rather than delay them with a bridge.
4 removal spells? A lot more than 4 dude. I agree pox is for grinding it out but I would rather remove the creatures rather than delay them with a bridge.
Huh? So you are breaking into the 8Rack core for space? Argument immediately invalidated.
4 removal spells? A lot more than 4 dude. I agree pox is for grinding it out but I would rather remove the creatures rather than delay them with a bridge.
Huh? So you are breaking into the 8Rack core for space? Argument immediately invalidated.
Lightning Bolt, Smallpox, Liliana, K Command, Anger of the gods. It ends up being like 16+ removal spells.
Who cares if you break into the "core" whatever that means. As far as I'm concerned the only "core" is the 8 Racks, Lillies and Thoughtseize/IoK.
You're right smallpox was basically there for the grind. I can't remember exactly what my SB looked like. Some Artifact removal, extirpate, I think maybe boom // bust. Anyway it doesn't really matter cause we're talking about smallpox right now.
Edit: I know I only ran 2 raven's crime and that's probably blasphemy but that's just because of the red splash having access to rix maadi.
4 removal spells? A lot more than 4 dude. I agree pox is for grinding it out but I would rather remove the creatures rather than delay them with a bridge.
Huh? So you are breaking into the 8Rack core for space? Argument immediately invalidated.
Lightning Bolt, Smallpox, Liliana, K Command, Anger of the gods. It ends up being like 16+ removal spells.
Who cares if you break into the "core" whatever that means. As far as I'm concerned the only "core" is the 8 Racks, Lillies and Thoughtseize/IoK.
THe fact that you don't know what the core is and don't know why its immutable tells me you are a long way from mastering this strat and thus I basically ignore your "advice" and suggest to everyone else to do the same. Its pointless to continue discussion about apples when you want to play with oranges.
Oh dammit I really can't resist weighing in here, for better of for worse. I think we should clarify some terminology and what we mean when we say certain words.
I have to agree with @FearDReaper - the "core" really is, the way I see it, a full set of ThoughtseizeInquisition of KozilekLiliana of the VeilThe RackShierking Affliction. This is the absolute most integral part of 8Rack and it is my firm oppinion that this set of 20 cards can't... ok, should not be touched in any way. I think going under 4 of any of the cards it an incredibly stupid idea that will result in more matches lost than those won by whatever you put in for them.
However, I also agree with @MemoryLapse - those are not the only important cards and can't be the only thing you consider when building an 8Rack deck. Things like Wrench Mind, Raven's Crime... Yea Rob, I totally agree. But I think we can come up with another word, maybe something like "8Rack shell". Just a thought. I think there is room for experimentation outsidie of the core. For instance, when you know you're going to be facing 4 Affinity players in an 8-man tournament then maybe 4xWrench Mind doesn't sound as tempting as it usually does. Another example - multiple copies of Raven's Crime aren't exactly great. Not bad, by any means, but not spectacular. I often find the 4th and in some rare situations the 3rd copies to underperform (although right now I don't recall playing less than 4 in any particular build I have). That being said, there is a certain shell around the core that has to be there in order for the strat to work as intented. I wouldn't go to the length of calling it exactly immutable but it's not far from the truth, especially in regard to the aforementioned two cards and maybe Visitor in the mono-black version at this point, although I still don't have extensive data to say how many copies are correct (so far looks like 3).
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
But in my opinion, IoK and Thoughtseize still have the targeted discard needs of 8rack on lockdown. I don't see that changing for awhile.
If word of mouth is to be believed (although I don't think it necessarily should be) people are even finding success while playing cards such as Smallpox. If you can consistently win games while playing
bad cardsthat, then the deck has to be incredibly well positioned.There are a lot of aggro decks which is generally not a good matchup
Junk isnt easy
Nahiri Control is tough
Dredge is tough
Other things are ok/good
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
You don't like slowing games down?
You don't like edicts?
You don't like the value of doing both at the same time?
I mean I don't run it eithor cause I like playing creatures but I don't think its a bad card for 8rack by any means.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Because to fight a lot of small aggro you have to adopt a more aggressive stance via the 8Rack critter pack options. This stance does not work with Smallpox. Smallpox is good in a Bridge main type of list that wants to go really grindy. So you basically answered your own question.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
i think it has to do more with playstile
to play optimaly with smallpox you have to put yourself on the draw, and don't play cards that don't reduce the card count on the table/hand (bridge its one of them, racks are also but you cant help that)
also play the smallpox turn 3 only if you have multiples of them alongside multiple racks, otherwise play it turn 4 empty handed. Almost never never never play it turn 2, that just kills you
but if you prefer creatures then you have to stay away from smallpox, theres no discusion about that
but thats just my opinion
I also like flaying tendrils. With all the Jeskai nahiri, is tribute to hunger our version of deflecting Palm.. Per say
So you are depending on 4 removal spells to protect you better than 4 copies of bridge? Nah.
Red splash is fine against affinity, but mono black is where you want to be against generic fast aggro. Without Smallpox.
Smallpox is a card for people who want to grind it out. There's no fast win scenario.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Who cares if you break into the "core" whatever that means. As far as I'm concerned the only "core" is the 8 Racks, Lillies and Thoughtseize/IoK.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
so even if you only play 2 smother or whatever, in total you are playing the same amount of removal as jund
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Dragonskull Summit
2 Rix Maadi, Dungeon Palace
5 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Kolaghan's Command
Sorceries - 19
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Raven's Crime
4 Thoughtseize
3 Smallpox
4 Wrench Mind
3 Anger of the Gods
4 Shrieking Affliction
4 The Rack
Planeswalkers - 4
4 Liliana of the Veil
You're right smallpox was basically there for the grind. I can't remember exactly what my SB looked like. Some Artifact removal, extirpate, I think maybe boom // bust. Anyway it doesn't really matter cause we're talking about smallpox right now.
Edit: I know I only ran 2 raven's crime and that's probably blasphemy but that's just because of the red splash having access to rix maadi.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
I have to agree with @FearDReaper - the "core" really is, the way I see it, a full set of Thoughtseize Inquisition of Kozilek Liliana of the Veil The Rack Shierking Affliction. This is the absolute most integral part of 8Rack and it is my firm oppinion that this set of 20 cards can't... ok, should not be touched in any way. I think going under 4 of any of the cards it an incredibly stupid idea that will result in more matches lost than those won by whatever you put in for them.
However, I also agree with @MemoryLapse - those are not the only important cards and can't be the only thing you consider when building an 8Rack deck. Things like Wrench Mind, Raven's Crime... Yea Rob, I totally agree. But I think we can come up with another word, maybe something like "8Rack shell". Just a thought. I think there is room for experimentation outsidie of the core. For instance, when you know you're going to be facing 4 Affinity players in an 8-man tournament then maybe 4xWrench Mind doesn't sound as tempting as it usually does. Another example - multiple copies of Raven's Crime aren't exactly great. Not bad, by any means, but not spectacular. I often find the 4th and in some rare situations the 3rd copies to underperform (although right now I don't recall playing less than 4 in any particular build I have). That being said, there is a certain shell around the core that has to be there in order for the strat to work as intented. I wouldn't go to the length of calling it exactly immutable but it's not far from the truth, especially in regard to the aforementioned two cards and maybe Visitor in the mono-black version at this point, although I still don't have extensive data to say how many copies are correct (so far looks like 3).